Apparently Harley Davidson will run out of cash sometime in 2009 if they continue on the downward sales spiral that started in 2008.
Have Harleys lost their luster and following, or is this going for pretty much all motorcycle manufacturing firms?
Personally, I've never really liked Harleys, at least not modern ones. I'm not motorcycle expert or enthusiast, but I can appreciate a nice bike...and I've never thought Harleys were anything amazing.
I just did my final inspection on the new Harley-Davidson dealership here in Kelowna, and it's huge. We're not a big city or anything (125,000 people) and this is the biggest Harley dealership I've ever seen. I hope it's not true. H-D bikes are cool.
Not history, but a significant bucking down. Any product or industry with little or no intrinsic value is bound to get back-handed when times get tough.
Do they make non-hogs... just basic street bikes?
Hogs do seem kinda corny.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on January 26, 2009, 02:05:45 PM
Do they make non-hogs... just basic street bikes?
Hogs do seem kinda corny.
WTF? Do you know what a HOG is? Harley Owners Group. The bikes aren't HOGS, the owners are. Byteme misnamed this thread.
You would think that they could survive on t-shirt and do-rag sales alone. They actually have dealerships that don't sell bikes, just paraphernalia. :rolleyes:
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 26, 2009, 02:07:16 PM
WTF? Do you know what a HOG is? Harley Owners Group. The bikes aren't HOGS, the owners are. Byteme misnamed this thread.
The bikes have been referred to as hogs for years.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on January 26, 2009, 02:05:45 PM
Do they make non-hogs... just basic street bikes?
Hogs do seem kinda corny.
Almost all of their bikes are based on the same architecture. Large, air cooled V-twin cruisers. Their real challenge will be the EPA.
Quote from: Cobra93 on January 26, 2009, 02:11:15 PM
The bikes have been referred to as hogs for years.
Incorrectly though. You will never hear an H-D owner call it a HOG unless that owner bought the bike because of a mid-life crisis.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on January 26, 2009, 02:05:45 PM
Do they make non-hogs... just basic street bikes?
Check out the link in my sig. They also have a controlling stake in Buell.
How can they run out of money when the majority of the bikes they sell are over $20k and by any means should not cost even half of that to build?
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 02:27:16 PM
How can they run out of money when the majority of the bikes they sell are over $20k and by any means should not cost even half of that to build?
wut?
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 02:27:16 PM
How can they run out of money when the majority of the bikes they sell are over $20k and by any means should not cost even half of that to build?
Don't forget they need to spend a lot of money on R$D!
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 26, 2009, 02:17:48 PM
Incorrectly though. You will never hear an H-D owner call it a HOG unless that owner bought the bike because of a mid-life crisis.
There are other kinds of Harley owners? :huh: :lol:
From Wiki:
Origin of "Hog" nicknameBeginning in 1920, a team of farm boys, including Ray Weishaar, who became known as the "hog boys," consistently won races. The group had a hog, or pig as their mascot. Following a win, they would put the pig (a real one) on their Harley and take a victory lap.[78] In 1983, the Motor Company formed a club for owners of its product
taking advantage of the long-standing nickname by turning "hog" into the acronym H.O.G., for Harley Owners Group. Harley-Davidson attempted to trademark "hog", but lost a case against an independent Harley-Davidson specialist, The Hog Farm of West Seneca, NY,[79] in 1999 when the appellate panel ruled that "hog" had become a generic term for large motorcycles and was therefore unprotectable as a trademark.[80]
On August 15, 2006, Harley-Davidson Inc. had its NYSE ticker symbol changed from HDI to HOG
Quote from: R-inge on January 26, 2009, 02:28:16 PM
wut?
The damn things are waaaaaaay 'spensive for what you get. You have to assume that the profit margins on Harleys has got to be among the highest of any vehicle ever sold anywhere. If not, then the manufacturing process must be horribly inefficient and the workers at the Harley plant must be getting paid twice what they'd be worth anywhere else, and the dealerships are making a real killing. Or, a combination of all of the above.
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 02:35:13 PM
The damn things are waaaaaaay 'spensive for what you get. You have to assume that the profit margins on Harleys has got to be among the highest of any vehicle ever sold anywhere. If not, then the manufacturing process must be horribly inefficient and the workers at the Harley plant must be getting paid twice what they'd be worth anywhere else, and the dealerships are making a real killing. Or, a combination of all of the above.
Yeah they ain't cheap, but I doubt they're all going out the door at $20k.
V Rods and the customs are the most expensive bikes they make.
Most sell for well upwards of $15k, though, and they don't have half the features of a $24k Honda Goldwing.
I was never a big fan of Harleys. I want a Triumph Thruxton.
I like certain Harley models, like the Sportster (esp the XR1200) and that Vrod thingy.
Otherwise I am more interested in a sports/standard type of bike.
I have an attraction to Buell that I will have to satiate someday.
(http://www.miphgl.org/mi/images/ph/xl%2B2007_Harley-Davidson_VRSCDX_Night_Rod_Special_right_front.jpg)
That's the only Harley I want.
A guy who used to work at the Bimmer dealer came in over the summer on one of those things, same colors, and it seemed like such an exotic to me. I know Porsche designed the engine, but it seems like such an alien bike to me that it might as well be a Triumph. The V Rod is a kickass bike.
Quote from: Tave on January 26, 2009, 03:32:14 PM
(http://www.miphgl.org/mi/images/ph/xl%2B2007_Harley-Davidson_VRSCDX_Night_Rod_Special_right_front.jpg)
That's the only Harley I want.
Oh yeah :wub:
I like the XR1200, too:
(http://vtwin-gallery.com/photopost/data/501/xr1200-8.jpg)
Quote from: R-inge on January 26, 2009, 02:38:57 PM
Yeah they ain't cheap, but I doubt they're all going out the door at $20k.
I don't think you've ever been to a Harley dealership.
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 03:41:59 PM
I don't think you've ever been to a Harley dealership.
Well, maybe you're right. I've never really shopped at one, no.
Quote from: R-inge on January 26, 2009, 03:45:30 PM
Well, maybe you're right. I've never really shopped at one, no.
Truth is there is a wide range of models and prices, but I was at one a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't believe how many of the bikes were in the $20k price range, and that's just for a pretty typical looking Softtail. I couldn't even look at them. I had to stay in the Sportster section so I wouldn't feel so poor.
Quote from: R-inge on January 26, 2009, 03:29:17 PM
I have an attraction to Buell that I will have to satiate someday.
I hear the new Helicon engine in the 1125R is amazing. Over the summer I'm going to have to test drive one.
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 03:51:17 PM
Truth is there is a wide range of models and prices, but I was at one a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't believe how many of the bikes were in the $20k price range, and that's just for a pretty typical looking Softtail. I couldn't even look at them. I had to stay in the Sportster section so I wouldn't feel so poor.
Very true! There's no way Imma pay that kind of money for a Harley and have my ass handed too me by a GSXR 600 (around 8k new).
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on January 26, 2009, 04:07:19 PM
Very true! There's no way Imma pay that kind of money for a Harley and have my ass handed too me by a GSXR 600 (around 8k new).
But I'll hand you your ass with my $10k Buell.
(at least until we get up to ~65 :lol:)
Quote from: hotrodalex on January 26, 2009, 04:09:14 PM
But I'll hand you your ass with my $10k Buell.
(at least until we get up to ~65 :lol:)
:cheers:
I've ridden a couple of Harleys and was never really impressed. Granted, I probably would have found any cruiser style bike, H-D or otherwise, underwhelming since that style bike generally doesn't appeal to me. I prefer something a little more nimble and with a more standard style seating position (the basic Sportster offers this, I haven't ridden one of those). I will admit that the big twin exhaust note did put a grin on my face (one of the examples I rode had a set of aftermarket pipes) even if the thrust provided wasn't exactly awe inspiring. Certainly still fun to ride, but a different kind of riding fun than I'm into at the moment. However, they are pretty pricy for what you get, IMO.
Quote from: NACar on January 26, 2009, 03:41:59 PM
I don't think you've ever been to a Harley dealership.
I used to drive by the biggest one in PA all the time.
Quote from: hotrodalex on January 26, 2009, 04:09:14 PM
But I'll hand you your ass with my $10k Buell.
(at least until we get up to ~65 :lol:)
I'm pretty sure a Gixxer 600 is quicker than any of the air-cooled Buells. I think my bike will run about dead even with a 1200 Buell.
Quote from: MX793 on January 26, 2009, 04:31:27 PM
I'm pretty sure a Gixxer 600 is quicker than any of the air-cooled Buells. I think my bike will run about dead even with a 1200 Buell.
Not in low-end acceleration. After about 60 or 70, yes they are faster.
Quote from: the Teuton on January 26, 2009, 03:06:38 PM
V Rods and the customs are the most expensive bikes they make.
Most sell for well upwards of $15k, though, and they don't have half the features of a $24k Honda Goldwing.
But then, why would you want a Goldwing? :huh:
Quote from: Psilos on January 26, 2009, 07:25:56 PM
But then, why would you want a Goldwing? :huh:
Why would you want a Harley?
HD is probably getting hammered by the cheapER (than before) "Custom" bikes which picked up a few years back, along with the economy..
Quote from: Psilos on January 26, 2009, 08:13:14 PM
Good point.
For the same reason you might want a restored MGB instead of the cheaper and dynamically superior Miata.
Harleys are not my cup of tea, but their popularity illustrates that uniquely American trait of an affection for machinery that is large, simple, reliable and brash. Harleys are along the same continuum as leather-lined pickup trucks, Hummers etc. They are (perhaps now were ) an indication of a wealthy society.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 26, 2009, 02:07:16 PM
WTF? Do you know what a HOG is? Harley Owners Group. The bikes aren't HOGS, the owners are. Byteme misnamed this thread.
Technically perhaps, but to the average guy the term Harley and Hog is interchangable.
Plus the question "Will Hogs be history" kind of flows.
Here is the article from: http://seekingalpha.com/article/116346-company-death-watch-harley-davidson
Harley-Davidson (HOG) reported earnings on January 23rd, and the numbers were worse than the headlines indicated. Much worse. The cash flow statement and the balance sheet show a very different picture of the company than the income statement. The core operating activities burned $684,649,000 of cash in 2008. Investing activities burned another $393,247,000, and the company only reduced capital expenditures 4.1% as the economy headed into the worst recession since the great depression. On top of this Harley bought back $250,400,000 worth of stock and paid out $302,000,000 in dividends. Total cash burned in 2008 was $1,630,296,000. The company had to finance this cash burn with borrowings.
Harley was able to increase sales and profits during the credit boom of the last decade by increasing the percentage of loans its financial services unit originated. Harley-Davidson Financial Services (HDFS) originated 22% of the loans for its bikes in 1999. HDFS originated 55% of all new Harley Davidson?s sold in the United States during 2007. During the securitization boom of the past decade Harley was able to sell the vast majority of the loans it originated for a profit. Now that the market for securitized loans has all but evaporated Harley is forced to hold all these loans on its books. Finance receivables increased $1,437,921,000 for the year end in December 2008, from $3,201,607,000 to $4,639,528,000. Finance receivables now account for 77.69% of 2008 revenue up from 52.11% of revenues in 2007. Total liabilities increased $2,432,000,000 in 2008. Current liabilities and borrowings increased $537 million in the fourth quarter alone. This occurred in a year where worldwide motorcycle sales declined 7.1%.
HDFS is financed by operating cash flow, asset-backed securitizations, the issuance of commercial paper, revolving credit facilities, medium-term notes, and the availability of advances and loans from the Company. In asset-backed securitizations, HDFS sells retail motorcycle loans and records a gain or loss on the sale of those loans. HDFS also retains an interest in the excess cash flows from the receivable and recognizes income on this retained interest. After the sale, HDFS performs billing, customer service and portfolio management services for these loans and receives a servicing fee for providing these services.
Harley-Davidson is now as much a lending institution as it is a manufacturing company. It is a financial in drag. This begs the questions, what is the company recording for its bad debts expense, and how much more can the company borrow to fund its motorcycle sales? Unfortunately for Harley?s shareholders the answer to both these questions is not much. HDFS uses discounted cash flow methodologies to estimate the fair value of finance receivables held for sale that incorporate appropriate assumptions for funding costs and credit enhancement, as well as estimates concerning credit losses and prepayments, that in management?s judgment, reflect assumptions marketplace participants would use. This means the company does not use mark to market accounting that financial institutions are forced to use. Harley only wrote down the value of its financial receivables 63.2 million dollars in the fourth quarter, 1.36%, as the world fell apart around them. ABS of all types sunk like a stone in the fourth quarter. One can extrapolate that the losses that Harley is realizing mean that cash flow those borrowers are at least 90 days or more past due. These losses will increase dramatically in the future. If Harley was forced to sell these loans at fair market prices due to a cash crunch, the company would have to record large losses.
In July 2008, the Company and HDFS entered into a $950.0 million 364-day facility and a $950.0 million three-year facility HDFS can issue unsecured commercial paper of up to $1.90 billion as of September 28, 2008. Maturities may range up to 365 days from the issuance date. Outstanding unsecured commercial paper may not exceed the unused portion of the Global Credit Facilities. Harley had $1,169,200,000 outstanding as of September 28th, 2008. Short term debt increased $599,667,000 in the fourth quarter. One can only assume that a substantial portion of this debt came from its commercial paper facility. This means that Harley only has a few hundred million dollars left of borrowing ability for its HDFS unit. The company also has $200,000,000 of debt coming due in 2010. There is a very real possibility that Harley will not be able to access the credit markets in 2009 to increase the lending capacity of HDFC. This puts over half the company?s revenues at risk. Credit is hard to come by so many potential buyers will have difficulty obtaining financing from other lenders. There is also the distinct possibility that the line of credit is pulled at year end. The dividend at Harley will have to be cut if it is not able to access credit or Harley will have to liquidate a portion of its loan portfolio at a large loss. The coming cash crisis at Harley Davidson makes it a legitimate contender to be the first major American vehicle manufacture to declare bankruptcy. This is a value trap that should be avoided or shorted.
Interesting - take away the profit from merchandising and now lending, and it doesn't look to be much of enterprise in the bikes themselves.
From the sounds of the situation it was a doomed for some time - The only company more tenuous than one founded on a product with little intrinsic value is the same in which its customers rely on loose consumer credit to purchase that product.
I think one of their major problems is they sell a product one can easily do without when money's tight and times are hard.
One of my co-workers shopped For a HD over Christmas. The model he wanted cost about $16,000 and the dealers were not dealing. He found a NIB 2006 (New in Box) Honda for less than half that.
I would have always thought that being such a luxury item that the majority of them would not be financed, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
H-Ds are uniquely American, but yes, when it comes to performance and value they are usually bested by Japanese bikes costing 1/2 as much.
Quote from: Byteme on January 27, 2009, 07:00:13 AM
Here is the article from: http://seekingalpha.com/article/116346-company-death-watch-harley-davidson
Harley's going broke, etc................
I know what would help. They could start having all of their gin-u-wine American Harley Davidson Apparel, boots and doo-dads manufactured overseas to save money.
Oh wait... they already do that. :(
Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2009, 07:46:35 AM
I would have always thought that being such a luxury item that the majority of them would not be financed, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Yep, And the trailer payment comes first. :ohyeah:
The Harley dealer kept telling (selling) my friend on the fact it was A Harley. The salesman evaded all the performance figures and reverted to what was essentially 'you are buying an image and a lifestyle'.
I'm not surprised most are financed. I have no data but I suspect many if not most buyers are middle aged middle class to upper middle class males ticking off an entry on their bucket list.
Quote from: Byteme on January 27, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
I think one of their major problems is they sell a product one can easily do without when money's tight and times are hard.
One of my co-workers shopped For a HD over Christmas. The model he wanted cost about $16,000 and the dealers were not dealing. He found a NIB 2006 (New in Box) Honda for less than half that.
A Honda will never sound like a Harley though.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
A Honda will never sound like a Harley though.
A harley sounds like a 1600CC, flat four, air cooled, VW Beetle engine running unmuffled on three cyls. :lol:
Not everyone needs ultimate performance in a street vehicle. I've had sportbikes and love them, but you really can't use all their potential on the street (or if you do, your'e lumped with the stunters that we have around here that do absolutely stupid stuff in traffic). If I do get another bike it won't be a sport bike.
I used to want a street rod style softail, but I rode a V-Rod, and I love it.
As for value, one of the things that Harleys had going for them that the Japanese bikes didn't was resale and longetivity.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
A Honda will never sound like a Harley though.
But if you pull a few plug wires it'll run like one. :lol:
Quote from: ChrisV on January 27, 2009, 07:55:52 AM
Not everyone needs ultimate performance in a street vehicle. I've had sportbikes and love them, but you really can't use all their potential on the street (or if you do, your'e lumped with the stunters that we have around here that do absolutely stupid stuff in traffic). If I do get another bike it won't be a sport bike.
I used to want a street rod style softail, but I rode a V-Rod, and I love it.
As for value, one of the things that Harleys had going for them that the Japanese bikes didn't was resale and longetivity.
I too, like the V-Rod. However, most traditional Harley guys don't, so it hasn't been very successful for them. As for that superior resale, those days are gone, perhaps because H-D made it too easy to buy a new one..
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
A Honda will never sound like a Harley though.
Thankfully - A piping CBR sounds 567 times better than any H-D ever built.
To me the only thing that sounds worse than a H-D is a coffee-can'd non-performance gunned-out ricer 4 cyl.
Sorry, but drop some slip-ins in the exhaust of this bike, and I'd ride it all over the place.
(http://www.cheapbikeparts.com.au/images/17813.jpg)
Just like a new GT-R will outrrun and outhandle a hot rod '32 Ford, but I'd rather have the '32, I'd rather have this than a new sport bike.
My guess is the Wisconsin congressional delegation will be seeking taxpayer-funded assistance to stop Harley going under.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 27, 2009, 06:19:26 AM
Harleys are not my cup of tea, but their popularity illustrates that uniquely American trait of an affection for machinery that is large, simple, reliable and brash. Harleys are along the same continuum as leather-lined pickup trucks, Hummers etc. They are (perhaps now were ) an indication of a wealthy society.
Harleys are notorious for breaking down. They make them that way on purpose so you have a chance to bond with other riders.
Quote from: Tave on January 26, 2009, 03:32:14 PM
(http://www.miphgl.org/mi/images/ph/xl%2B2007_Harley-Davidson_VRSCDX_Night_Rod_Special_right_front.jpg)
That's the only Harley I want.
Now that is freakin' awesome. :rockon:
Quote from: Tave on January 27, 2009, 09:17:20 AM
Harleys are notorious for breaking down. They make them that way on purpose so you have a chance to bond with other riders.
OLD Harleys are notorious for breaking down. They are quite reliable now.
True, they've improved in that regard, but their popularity wasn't built on reliability, is my only point.
And they've still got a ways to go.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2009, 07:59:11 AM
Thankfully - A piping CBR sounds 567 times better than any H-D ever built.
To me the only thing that sounds worse than a H-D is a coffee-can'd non-performance gunned-out ricer 4 cyl.
I'd rather have a Harley or a custom bike then a sport bike.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
A Honda will never sound like a Harley though.
If it's a modified Harley then no thank you. The police really should bust people who have those things so noisy that it hurts when they drive by.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 12:08:24 PM
If it's a modified Harley then no thank you. The police really should bust people who have those things so noisy that it hurts when they drive by.
I agree. I was pulled over once in my Mustang and the cop came up to the window and said, "I pulled you over because your exhaust is too..." BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!!! as a Harley with straight pipes sped by. The cop then continued, "Never mind. Have a nice day."
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 12:10:57 PM
I agree. I was pulled over once in my Mustang and the cop came up to the window and said, "I pulled you over because your exhaust is too..." BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!!! as a Harley with straight pipes sped by. The cop then continued, "Never mind. Have a nice day."
I agree. They pulled all these Civics with fart cans over in my town but let the Harley's drive all over the place without doing anything. If you're going to make rules about stuff then be consistent about them. Don't just go after the people you don't like. Some Harley drivers take it way too far with the sound.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 12:18:27 PM
If you're going to make rules about stuff then be consistent about them.
Well, they go after cars with no front plates here, but let bikes have no front plate. OTOH, they let people drive in convertibles with no helmets, but require motorcyclists to wear them. So many rules are inconsistent between cars and bikes.
Motorcyclists have been successful at convincing lawmakers that "loutpipes save lives" by making cage drivers aware of a motorcycle in thier vicinity. Considering I've been nearly hit when riding a bright red sportbike with neon red helmet and the headlight on and the driver of the truck looking straight at me, maybe they have a point...
Quote from: ChrisV on January 27, 2009, 08:12:11 AM
Sorry, but drop some slip-ins in the exhaust of this bike, and I'd ride it all over the place.
(http://www.cheapbikeparts.com.au/images/17813.jpg)
Just like a new GT-R will outrrun and outhandle a hot rod '32 Ford, but I'd rather have the '32, I'd rather have this than a new sport bike.
(http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Images/tri_thruxton1_lge.jpg)
I'd rather have that.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 12:18:27 PM
I agree. They pulled all these Civics with fart cans over in my town but let the Harley's drive all over the place without doing anything. If you're going to make rules about stuff then be consistent about them. Don't just go after the people you don't like. Some Harley drivers take it way too far with the sound.
:hesaid: +2
they're so obnoxiously annoying, and alot of riders make it a point to lay on the throttle right next to an open car window. yeah, you're so cool, old man :rolleyes:
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 12:08:24 PM
If it's a modified Harley then no thank you. The police really should bust people who have those things so noisy that it hurts when they drive by.
I think a harley sounds great with the factory pipes. With anything else they just bug me.
Quote from: R-inge on January 27, 2009, 12:47:25 PM
I think a harley sounds great with the factory pipes. With anything else they just bug me.
Agreed. Most aftermarket pipes don't sound right.
Quote from: hotrodalex on January 27, 2009, 01:01:10 PM
Agreed. Most aftermarket pipes don't sound right.
My uncle's Harley has an aftermarket pipe on it and it sounds great. It just sounds like stock but just 20% louder.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 01:04:16 PM
My uncle's Harley has an aftermarket pipe on it and it sounds great. It just sounds like stock but just 20% louder.
Most of the ones I hear are really rough and loud. I mean Harley's should be kinda rough sounding, but when it sounds like your missing a cylinder, it's not right.
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 27, 2009, 01:04:16 PM
My uncle's Harley has an aftermarket pipe on it and it sounds great. It just sounds like stock but just 20% louder.
I'm ok with 20% louder and similar tone to stock, but uncorked they sound like ass.
Quote from: R-inge on January 27, 2009, 01:41:04 PM
I'm ok with 20% louder and similar tone to stock, but uncorked they sound like ass.
I would think it would get old having to hear that for hours and hours going down the road.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 01:43:17 PM
I would think it would get old having to hear that for hours and hours going down the road.
A car with an overly loud exhaust can certainly get old after a few hours behind the wheel.
A favorite pastime of Atlanta's doctors & dentists is to get on their Harleys & ride up to the North Georgia mountains on sunny weekends. If you don't like silence, or the sounds of birdsong, streams & waterfalls, the noise from the motorbikes is useful for drowning it all out.
Personally I find the sound to be crude & unrefined. The loud disharmonies of an engine design that is fundamentally unbalanced may be acceptable in cheap leaf blowers or lawn mowers, but not in an expensive conveyance like a motorcycle.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 01:43:17 PM
I would think it would get old having to hear that for hours and hours going down the road.
A lot of the Harley guys wear earplugs. Then again, a lot of them are just old and deaf. :lol:
Quote from: Byteme on January 27, 2009, 01:46:51 PM
A car with an overly loud exhaust can certainly get old after a few hours behind the wheel.
That's why I took my performance one off my car. It sounded great to me with the hard top on. But when I took it off it was a pain.
Anyone want a GREAT Jackson racing exhaust for a MX-5? :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 27, 2009, 01:46:59 PM
A favorite pastime of Atlanta's doctors & dentists is to get on their Harleys & ride up to the North Georgia mountains on sunny weekends. If you don't like silence, or the sounds of birdsong, streams & waterfalls, the noise from the motorbikes is useful for drowning it all out.
Personally I find the sound to be crude & unrefined. The loud disharmonies of an engine design that is fundamentally unbalanced may be acceptable in cheap leaf blowers or lawn mowers, but not in an expensive conveyance like a motorcycle.
I have Cobra exhaust and Torqueloopz on the Goldwing. To me it sounds 100% nicer than a Harley. It's not overly loud at cruise or idle but has a nice growl under acceleration.
Quote from: Byteme on January 27, 2009, 01:46:51 PM
A car with an overly loud exhaust can certainly get old after a few hours behind the wheel.
Been there, done that. Never wasting the money on it again.
A lot of guys say "loud pipes save lives" which might be somewhat valid. But I still find them annoying.
Quote from: R-inge on January 27, 2009, 02:03:17 PM
A lot of guys say "loud pipes save lives" which might be somewhat valid. But I still find them annoying.
Thing is I normally don't hear them until they are right at my side. And then it can surprise the shit out of me.
Quote from: R-inge on January 27, 2009, 02:01:56 PM
Been there, done that. Never wasting the money on it again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNPCq-Ohnw
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3324226a.jpg)
Quote from: HEMI666 on January 26, 2009, 02:07:16 PM
WTF? Do you know what a HOG is? Harley Owners Group. The bikes aren't HOGS, the owners are. Byteme misnamed this thread.
You're right. The bikes are Hawgs. Close enough.
Quote from: ChrisV on January 27, 2009, 02:06:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNPCq-Ohnw
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3324226a.jpg)
Neat.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 27, 2009, 02:05:19 PM
Thing is I normally don't hear them until they are right at my side. And then it can surprise the shit out of me.
Yeah, something about the sound from a big twin doesn't carry well ahead of the bike, meaning that you're not really warning people ahead of you that you're coming, only the people you've already passed. Higher pitched machines tend to throw their sound out ahead of them a little better.
Last summer I was driving home from work and I saw a bike approaching in the other lane. I had my windows down and didn't hear him until he was within a few car lengths. As he went by and had to shield my ear from the sound (must have had no mufflers at all). I could hear him loud and clear for nearly a mile after he went by.
Quote from: MX793 on January 27, 2009, 04:59:22 PM
Yeah, something about the sound from a big twin doesn't carry well ahead of the bike, meaning that you're not really warning people ahead of you that you're coming, only the people you've already passed. Higher pitched machines tend to throw their sound out ahead of them a little better.
Last summer I was driving home from work and I saw a bike approaching in the other lane. I had my windows down and didn't hear him until he was within a few car lengths. As he went by and had to shield my ear from the sound (must have had no mufflers at all). I could hear him loud and clear for nearly a mile after he went by.
Maybe they should put the pipes on backwards?
It's a combination of the Doppler Effect and High vs Low frequencies.
Quote from: Tave on January 28, 2009, 03:25:18 PM
It's a combination of the Doppler Effect and High vs Low frequencies.
Thank you, Dr. Science.
That's Dr. Science God to you.
Quote from: Tave on January 28, 2009, 03:31:28 PM
That's Dr. Science God to you.
I beg your apologies.
Quote from: Tave on January 28, 2009, 03:25:18 PM
It's a combination of the Doppler Effect and High vs Low frequencies.
That was in an episode of "Malcolm in the Middle" where the youngest son explained that to another kid in class. I learned more from that episode than from an entire semester of high school physical science.
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/Standman38637/HD.jpg)
:thumbsup:
rofl
:lol:
I have to agree with the assessment. For the money, both Honda and BMW offer more.
Quote from: the Teuton on January 28, 2009, 05:11:24 PM
I have to agree with the assessment. For the money, both Honda and BMW offer more.
I wouldn't consider Honda or BMW to be value leaders either. BMWs are pretty pricy for what you get too, although they do offer quite a bit of technology (truth be told, newer Hogs are more technologically advanced than they appear, offering FI on pretty much everything now and ABS on several models).
Quote from: Cobra93 on January 28, 2009, 03:48:06 PM
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/Standman38637/HD.jpg)
:clap:
Quote from: hotrodalex on January 26, 2009, 04:00:40 PM
I hear the new Helicon engine in the 1125R is amazing. Over the summer I'm going to have to test drive one.
Have you seen the 1125CR?
(http://www.buell.com/_media/images/bikes/street/1125cr/gallery/regular/wallpaper_1125CR_12.jpg)
I'm actively considering trading in my Lightning for this bad boy.
Quote from: sandertheshark on January 28, 2009, 07:41:51 PM
Have you seen the 1125CR?
(http://www.buell.com/_media/images/bikes/street/1125cr/gallery/regular/wallpaper_1125CR_12.jpg)
I'm actively considering trading in my Lightning for this bad boy.
Reminds me a bit of the B-King if they took the strange looking mufflers and cut them off and mounted them up front as giant intakes.
How's that Lightning treating you Sander?
Quote from: R-inge on January 28, 2009, 07:57:05 PM
How's that Lightning treating you Sander?
Apart from replacing a couple seals she's been treating me good. Almost three years I've owned it now.
Quote from: sandertheshark on January 28, 2009, 08:33:01 PM
Apart from replacing a couple seals she's been treating me good. Almost three years I've owned it now.
Nice. Is it you first bike?
Quote from: sandertheshark on January 28, 2009, 07:41:51 PM
Have you seen the 1125CR?
(http://www.buell.com/_media/images/bikes/street/1125cr/gallery/regular/wallpaper_1125CR_12.jpg)
I'm actively considering trading in my Lightning for this bad boy.
What's the difference between the 1125R and CR?
Quote from: hotrodalex on January 28, 2009, 08:49:09 PM
What's the difference between the 1125R and CR?
The CR is filed under "street bike" instead of "sport bike." Basically the same difference as between the Lightning and the Firebolt.