Poll
Question:
Would you rather?
Option 1: Drive a stick, but it has to be FWD
votes: 7
Option 2: Drive RWD, but it has to be an automatic
votes: 5
You're looking for a new car and have it narrowed down to two choices: one is a nicely handling FWD car w/ a stick, the other a well-sorted automatic in RWD. Neither option stands head and shoulders above the other, you like both about equally, and the only defining characteristics are the transmission and driven wheels. Which do you chose?
I'd go with the manual--dynamics at the limit can be fun under the right circumstances, but a manual can be fun pretty much every time you get in the car. :rockon:
Assuming everything else about the cars is as equal as possible; I'd go for the stick.
I would probably go with the fwd manual. For example, I'd take a Cooper S manual over a 330i auto.
FWD, Manual.
You'll enjoy the stick shift all of the time.
Driven wheels don't matter except at the limits.
Going off personal experience with an auto E46 and Camaro
sporty RWD > manual
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 19, 2018, 12:54:20 PM
Going off personal experience with an auto E46 and Camaro
sporty RWD > manual
Hmmm. Both of those are RWD.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 19, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
Hmmm. Both of those are RWD.
Yes, I loved both. Automatic RWD is much more fun to drift (dry or snow) than manual FWD.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 19, 2018, 01:07:18 PM
Yes, I loved both. Automatic RWD is much more fun to drift (dry or snow) than manual FWD.
I see. It is difficult to answer this question in general without talking of specific cars.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 19, 2018, 01:10:00 PM
I see. It is difficult to answer this question in general without talking of specific cars.
True. I'd prefer an original Mini Cooper if compared to a Genesis
Rear Drive Auto.
This a tough one. If it was my only vehicle, FWD manual. If I could also have truck, RWD auto. I dunno, also depends on the vehicle. 🤔
I think we have to assume that these are otherwise very similar vehicles, and also that they're sporty enough for us to give a damn which wheels are driven. Like if there was still a compact FWD Subaru, versus an automatic BRZ.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 19, 2018, 12:41:37 PM
I would probably go with the fwd manual. For example, I'd take a Cooper S manual over a 330i auto.
Hmmm. We replaced a Cooper w/manual with a 330Ci ZHP automatic. Both equally fun. The auto in the ZHP is much more comfy to drive in traffic, and yet still a blast when the traffic clears and the roads get twisty, like on the Tail of the Dragon. But it's still a vastly different, and much more powerful car, than the Cooper was.
For me, there are a LOT more factors that go into it, and it's hard to find a comparable FWD and RWD car regardless of transmission as they tend to be much different cars overall.
For a sporty driver, FWD manual. For me, I'd take a manual Cooper or GTi over an automatic Miata or BRZ. For a larger sedan, RWD auto.
How much power are we talking about? Manual transmission generally trumps drive wheels for me, but when horsepower/torque starts getting much above 230, I might start re-thinking priorities. Assuming the auto in the RWD car is a crisp, quick-shifting, unit with a responsive manual control mode and not some droning, TorCon slipping, slushy, recalcitrant fun-sapper.
Stick.
I would have a year ago said stick without hesitation but after renting a MB SLK (or SLC) turbo 4 with 9 speed auto and driven it in sport mode, I'm not so sure. That car was so much fun.
I'd probably still get a stick though just for the psychological kick I get that fewer and fewer people can drive one. It's also cool that I never have to adjust anything in the car because my wife can't drive it.
RWD
Does dual clutch count as auto?
If it does, then I'll pick RWD and auto because if you limit yourself to FWD and Manual, the most sporting car you could get is probably this:
(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/honda-civic-type-r_0.jpg?itok=8s7rXLJn)
On the other hand, Auto (if counting dual clutch), RWD, affords pretty much endless possibilities.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51c9ca36e4b09eb6769e82b2/t/56c2588f59827e8effb96623/1455577244552/)
In my opinion, dual clutch and "F1 style" SMG boxes are both automatics.
Of course, I'm Tave's example, the cars are roughly equal in all other aspects. It's not a Mini vs a Ferrari situation.
Tough call, but oddly enough IME RWD cars are more likely to have a manual transmission available than FWD or AWD cars.
My driven wheel preference is AWD and my transmission preference is manual, but it almost came down to RWD/Manual vs AWD/Auto. I feel like most sporty RWD cars do come with a manual transmission (BMW's, Camaro/Mustang/Vette, Chevy SS, Miata, BRZ, etc...). FWD/AWD cars are a bit more hit or miss. Audi has just about abandoned the manual transmission and I would be surprised is VW follows. I think BMW might technically still offer manuals on the xDrive models but it is more rare than the RWD models. Subura still seems to offer a lot of manual transmission models, hopefully that continues.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on January 22, 2018, 06:42:45 AM
Tough call, but oddly enough IME RWD cars are more likely to have a manual transmission available than FWD or AWD cars.
My driven wheel preference is AWD and my transmission preference is manual, but it almost came down to RWD/Manual vs AWD/Auto. I feel like most sporty RWD cars do come with a manual transmission (BMW's, Camaro/Mustang/Vette, Chevy SS, Miata, BRZ, etc...). FWD/AWD cars are a bit more hit or miss. Audi has just about abandoned the manual transmission and I would be surprised is VW follows. I think BMW might technically still offer manuals on the xDrive models but it is more rare than the RWD models. Subura still seems to offer a lot of manual transmission models, hopefully that continues.
Yes, also Honda (civic/accord) and Mazda (3/6) still offer manual.
I can't think of a single FWD/Manual car in production now that I would own over a PDK equipped Boxster or a DCT M3 or any number of hyper/super/duper cars. FWD is such a limited factor that tops out at a....Civic. This question would be more interesting with a $$ cap, like lets say 35-40K. At that point, you begin comparing a Civic Type R to a V6 Camaro/Ecoboost Stang/Stripper 230 and it becomes more difficult.
yes, as has been repeatedly mentioned it iind of breaks down if limited to current new car choices. I don't think that was ever really the intended question.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 22, 2018, 11:02:51 AM
yes, as has been repeatedly mentioned it iind of breaks down if limited to current new car choices. I don't think that was ever really the intended question.
Then all other things being equal (and generally good) I would likely choose Auto/RWD over Manual/FWD. I would choose (Either)/AWD over both though. :lol:
Quote from: Xer0 on January 22, 2018, 09:30:20 AM
I can't think of a single FWD/Manual car in production now that I would own over a PDK equipped Boxster or a DCT M3 or any number of hyper/super/duper cars. FWD is such a limited factor that tops out at a....Civic. This question would be more interesting with a $$ cap, like lets say 35-40K. At that point, you begin comparing a Civic Type R to a V6 Camaro/Ecoboost Stang/Stripper 230 and it becomes more difficult.
Yeah, but he's talking about hypothetical situation where the cars are otherwise equal.
FWD stick - I don't drive anywhere near hard enough for FWD vs RWD to make a difference, so I'd rather row my own
All things being equal, I'd probably go FWD/manual. I dunno. RWD is super fun in the winter, but that's about the only time I'm ever breaking traction on purpose.
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 22, 2018, 01:25:32 PM
All things being equal, I'd probably go FWD/manual. I dunno. RWD is super fun in the winter, but that's about the only time I'm ever breaking traction on purpose.
http://lsup.scca.com/
If it's a top notch AT - such as the performance implementation of the ZF8 or DSG, RWD/AT of course.
Quote from: Raza on January 22, 2018, 11:29:10 AM
Yeah, but he's talking about hypothetical situation where the cars are otherwise equal.
Ah I see, I was doing this wrong.
Well I still stand by my RWD auto preference, because as fun as a 660hp FWD Civic Type R may be in the short term, the 488 GTB is probably the more sensible car in the long run.
I didn't want to restrict it to one class or price point or even new/old or DD'ers, but yeah the general idea is you're looking at two roughly comparable cars that you'd actually buy.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your average CivicR buyer can't afford a Ferrari, but they could swing a Mustang/Comaro or even something like a 1-Series. :lol:
And yeah I def think dual clutches and smg's (as long as we're not talking something like a motorcycle box) count as automatics.
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:
Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
In the U.S. today, if you drive a manual you are a skilled driver compared with the masses. And the masses know this. It is a skill. It can't be bought. A terrible driver can buy a Ferrari. Through practice and effort, the skill is fine tuned. There's even an element of respect. If I see a woman driving a stick, my immediate reaction is, "damn girl...shit...you are awesome!"
I know this may be all stupid on my part. But it's what I feel. A few months ago I picked up a high school friend of mine I hadn't seen in a few years from the train station. He got in the passenger seat. First thing out of his mouth, "You drive a 5 speed." "Yeah. I like it." "Hmm. When did you learn?"
I don't think that driving a manual automatically makes one a more skilled driver besides in the sense that you can successfully operate a clutch/transmission. That has little bearing on your ability/desire to travel the roads competently and safely.
I think a manual can make any car feel more engaging, and I think that's especially true with a slow car
Quote from: Raza on January 22, 2018, 11:29:10 AM
Yeah, but he's talking about hypothetical situation where the cars are otherwise equal.
I get that, but a hypothetical situation like that likely wouldn't exist. Each layout has its pros and cons and limits. A hypothetical FWD GT3 would more than likely be a dynamic mess that would just spin its front tires. If the FWD and RWD car are hypothetically otherwise equal, then the RWD vs FWD distinction is pointless and its just a question of auto vs manual.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:
Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.
Quote from: Raza on January 24, 2018, 09:29:26 AM
Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.
Drive an old automatic that just uses manifold vacuum and throttle position to know when to shift. No computers!
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 24, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
I don't think that driving a manual automatically makes one a more skilled driver besides in the sense that you can successfully operate a clutch/transmission. That has little bearing on your ability/desire to travel the roads competently and safely.
it means at the very least that one has to be aware of what the car is doing, with the added benefit that it forces you to put the phone down for the most part.
Quote from: Raza on January 24, 2018, 09:29:26 AM
Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal. The overall driving experience and performance is the same. But for someone who enjoys each step of the process taking out shifting is a huge blow to the experience.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal. The overall driving experience and performance is the same. But for someone who enjoys each step of the process taking out shifting is a huge blow to the experience.
For what I do, it doesn't matter too much. In Auto-x I typically leave it in the same gear the whole time.
Quote from: Xer0 on January 24, 2018, 09:25:15 AM
I get that, but a hypothetical situation like that likely wouldn't exist. Each layout has its pros and cons and limits. A hypothetical FWD GT3 would more than likely be a dynamic mess that would just spin its front tires. If the FWD and RWD car are hypothetically otherwise equal, then the RWD vs FWD distinction is pointless and its just a question of auto vs manual.
The hypothetical is more common in the real world than cross shopping a Civic and a Ferrari, or this make-believe FWD Carerra. :huh:
The premise isn't that the two vehicles are virtual equals, only that they are roughly comparable, you like them both about the same, and they are cars you could seriously envision yourself purchasing.
They don't have to be the exact same year, type, size, price, etc..; just two models that are realistic examples of your potential buys, separated by drivetrain and layout.
What I was trying to avoid was a situation where people punch down at notoriously sloppy autos or understeering pigs.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal.
Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.
I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86. Similar power and performance capabilities and price.
As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability. Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.
So like an Automatic NA, and a '93 Civic VTEC
Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.
G37's 7AT was mediocre 10 years when new (and DS mode is ridiculous). ANY sort of sporting intent absolutely has to be addressed only via manual shifting.
After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.
I'm more interested in control and throttle response of a transmission. If it let's you fully control the gear selection and replaces a spongy torque converter with a direct connected feel - then it's ok in my book.
Quote from: r0tor on January 24, 2018, 12:26:56 PM
After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.
Eh, it's the expressiveness of the MT that's appealing to me. The personality of the car changes to reflect how I feel.
Quote from: r0tor on January 24, 2018, 12:26:56 PM
After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.
I'm more interested in control and throttle response of a transmission. If it let's you fully control the gear selection and replaces a spongy torque converter with a direct connected feel - then it's ok in my book.
I agree with this, but I would also add that the occasional time when I am driving an auto I almost invariable miss having a manual. Sequential manuals are the closest but even then having to go through each gear can be an annoyance vs being able to change in to any gear.
Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.
I may just have learned how to prime it. Plus the paddles still work in D. I find DS to be needlessly aggressive.
I will say this- which may be worth a separate discussion- I'd rather have a so-so transmission with a great motor than the opposite. That F30 328i is supposedly about as fast as the G, and the ZF8 is brilliant... but any time I dipped into the gas, I never knew what I was gonna get. That motor was a mystery. With the G, get it above 2K, it's go time. Much easier to manage
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 02:14:43 PM
I may just have learned how to prime it. Plus the paddles still work in D. I find DS to be needlessly aggressive.
I will say this- which may be worth a separate discussion- I'd rather have a so-so transmission with a great motor than the opposite. That F30 328i is supposedly about as fast as the G, and the ZF8 is brilliant... but any time I dipped into the gas, I never knew what I was gonna get. That motor was a mystery. With the G, get it above 2K, it's go time. Much easier to manage
Yep. The larger the engine, the less the transmission matters. Which is why I'd rather have a big engined RWD car, even if it comes with an auto.
Quote from: MX793 on January 24, 2018, 11:22:46 AM
I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86. Similar power and performance capabilities and price.
As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability. Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.
Given the choice between a CSi or an auto GT86, I think I would probably go with the Civic.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 24, 2018, 10:18:48 AM
it means at the very least that one has to be aware of what the car is doing, with the added benefit that it forces you to put the phone down for the most part.
Fair enough.
Quote from: MX793 on January 24, 2018, 11:22:46 AM
I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86. Similar power and performance capabilities and price.
As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability. Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.
Those are great examples. Even more generally, I meant "all else equal" in terms of your likes/dislikes and relative attraction to the car. If you could reasonably see yourself trying to decide between a FWD station wagon and RWD pickup at the same price point, go nuts. Just as long as it's something you would realistically consider purchasing.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:
Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
I don't look at it as a novel skill as much as keeping you involved and contributing to the process in a way that (if you're doing it well) also makes you more attentive to the task at hand.
It's really easy to hedge your bets in an auto, but if you want to drive a manual fundamentally proper and smooth in all scenarios you have to pay attention. It's almost like a check against your own worse impulses, aside from the simple joy of being an active participant in the play. There's a certain satisfaction you get from being engaged.
Also, regardless of the advertised absolute speeds on shifts, virtually almost all affordable cars have enough lag between the paddle-pull and actual shift to make the exercise a phyrric victory. What good does .5 sec faster shifting give you if it happens .7 sec after you want it?
Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.
Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 04:46:26 PM
Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.
First they have to unload the transmission (which is why every DCT car is throttle by wire), and engines still only drop RPM so fast.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:
Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
I said this back in 2011 when I got rid of the Z28 (6 Speed) for my first C6 (Auto)....
Quote from: Tave on January 24, 2018, 04:42:53 PM
I don't look at it as a novel skill as much as keeping you involved and contributing to the process in a way that (if you're doing it well) also makes you more attentive to the task at hand.
It's really easy to hedge your bets in an auto, but if you want to drive a manual fundamentally proper and smooth in all scenarios you have to pay attention. It's almost like a check against your own worse impulses, aside from the simple joy of being an active participant in the play. There's a certain satisfaction you get from being engaged.
Also, regardless of the advertised absolute speeds on shifts, virtually almost all affordable cars have enough lag between the paddle-pull and actual shift to make the exercise a phyrric victory. What good does .5 sec faster shifting give you if it happens .7 sec after you want it?
I really think it still depends. For example whenever I have to drive the Civic, I don't even think about the transmission. It's all very second nature to me at this point. If there is anything that gets my attention, it's simply how slow the damn thing is. That's what forces me to plan ahead and think about driving. And if I'm bombing through some twisties and I need to keep the revs up, the thought process is the same in the G. It's just the physical machination that differs, which is secondary or even tertiary as far as priorities go. With the Z or my bike, yea I have more control over the gears more of the time, but with their level of performance I can still afford to be lazy. So that's what I mean when I say after a certain point the engine doesn't matter. But with the Civic, if it were auto it would be damn near dangerous. Stick is more key at that level of performance.
I don't know that the paddle delay is that big of a deal either. In the G, again, maybe I'm just used to it by now, but it's been a while since I've been frustrated by the paddles. Obviously it's not instant like a good auto, but it's responsive enough for the street, and it will not upshift in sport/manual mode. Plus you have to figure, even the best manual driver will need that same half a second or so to blip and downshift. But there's never been a time where I hit the paddle to make a pass and it didn't work or let me down. With regular use you get used to it.
Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 04:46:26 PM
Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.
It's a function of the design of the slushie AT. After all, it's just a fluid computer, with various elements, plenty of which aren't all that linear - TCU, torque converter, clutches, solenoids, sensors, pumps, and of course, fluid flowing about to make much of it happen. A cheap slushie just doesn't have the linearity for high(er) bandwidth response - weaker clutches, lower pressures, smaller/slower solenoids, etc.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 24, 2018, 05:02:12 PM
First they have to unload the transmission (which is why every DCT car is throttle by wire), and engines still only drop RPM so fast.
A hi-po slushie AT w/paddle shifters (e.g., ZF 8 speed) is extremely responsive, both on the up and down shift, because it's designed to be (see previous post).
Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).
In a modern AT, either slushie or DCT, it's about matching engine speed to transmission input shaft speed; timing control to decrease RPM on the up shift (throttle control is way too slow) and throttle control to increase RPM on the down shift.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 25, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
I really think it still depends. For example whenever I have to drive the Civic, I don't even think about the transmission. It's all very second nature to me at this point. If there is anything that gets my attention, it's simply how slow the damn thing is. That's what forces me to plan ahead and think about driving. And if I'm bombing through some twisties and I need to keep the revs up, the thought process is the same in the G. It's just the physical machination that differs, which is secondary or even tertiary as far as priorities go. With the Z or my bike, yea I have more control over the gears more of the time, but with their level of performance I can still afford to be lazy. So that's what I mean when I say after a certain point the engine doesn't matter. But with the Civic, if it were auto it would be damn near dangerous. Stick is more key at that level of performance.
I don't know that the paddle delay is that big of a deal either. In the G, again, maybe I'm just used to it by now, but it's been a while since I've been frustrated by the paddles. Obviously it's not instant like a good auto, but it's responsive enough for the street, and it will not upshift in sport/manual mode. Plus you have to figure, even the best manual driver will need that same half a second or so to blip and downshift. But there's never been a time where I hit the paddle to make a pass and it didn't work or let me down. With regular use you get used to it.
I agree people shift manually more by feel than consciously doing the arithmetic, but I think you still need to be "in the moment" so to speak to really shift well and butter-smooth over a long period of time. You have to be focused at the task at hand not to get caught in the wrong gear at some point, or shift a little too early/late, or slip the clutch a hair, etc... None of those little wriggles are bad if you're otherwise driving safely; it's not like you're grinding gears or stalling the car or anything like that--just not perfect. At least I have those issues, and I have fun trying to do as well as I possibly can. But on a more simple, basic level, to me personally the manual provides an engaging and active level of interaction with the entire sensory experience that the auto can't match.
It's true, on great autos the lag isn't so bad, but regardless you still sacrifice quite a bit of control over the character of the shift. At the end of the day, I don't really care about shifting an extra 300 milliseconds faster than I can on my own because it absolutely never matters on the street. But the ability to exercise complete control over the shift--start and end the shift precisely when you want, shift slow at fast speeds, shift fast at slow speeds, (and vice versa), drag the shift out or cut it off, anything in between...--actually makes a noticeable difference.
Sure the better autos have some progression built into them and try to anticipate your needs, but they still lack the infinite number of gradations the analog control provides and can't always do the counterintuitive shifts, modulate the shift according to road/traffic conditions, and so forth. Not a huge deal by any means, and maybe it's anal of me to think about that minutia, but it makes driving fun for me.
For me it's not about performance so much as it's about having finer control over the driving character of the car. A really good AT is still only a mind-reading approximation.
With my G37 I found that I had to drive the car much faster in order to achieve a similar level of driver/car engagement.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 25, 2018, 03:06:35 PM
A hi-po slushie AT w/paddle shifters (e.g., ZF 8 speed) is extremely responsive, both on the up and down shift, because it's designed to be (see previous post).
Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).
In a modern AT, either slushie or DCT, it's about matching engine speed to transmission input shaft speed; timing control to decrease RPM on the up shift (throttle control is way too slow) and throttle control to increase RPM on the down shift.
This is exactly what I mean; matching engine speed to transmission imput shaft speed.
Quote from: Tave on January 25, 2018, 05:28:40 PM
I agree people shift manually more by feel than consciously doing the arithmetic, but I think you still need to be "in the moment" so to speak to really shift well and butter-smooth over a long period of time. You have to be focused at the task at hand not to get caught in the wrong gear at some point, or shift a little too early/late, or slip the clutch a hair, etc... None of those little wriggles are bad if you're otherwise driving safely; it's not like you're are grinding gears or stalling the car or anything like that--just not perfect. At least I have those issues, and I have fun trying to do as well as I possibly can. But on a more simple, basic level, to me personally the manual provides an engaging and active level of interaction with the entire sensory experience that the auto can't match.
It's true, on great autos the lag isn't so bad, but regardless you still sacrifice quite a bit of control over the character of the shift. At the end of the day, I don't really care about shifting an extra 300 milliseconds faster than I can on my own because it absolutely never matters on the street. But the ability to exercise complete control over the shift--start and end the shift precisely when you want, shift slow at fast speeds, shift fast at slow speeds, (and vice versa), drag the shift out or cut it off, anything in between...--actually makes a noticeable difference.
Sure the better autos have some progression built into them and try to anticipate your needs, but they still lack the infinite number of gradations the analog control provides and can't always do the counterintuitive shifts, modulate the shift according to road/traffic conditions, and so forth. Not a huge deal by any means, and maybe it's anal of me to think about that minutia, but it makes driving fun for me.
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.
Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....
Quote from: Laconian on January 25, 2018, 05:36:14 PM
For me it's not about performance so much as it's about having finer control over the driving character of the car. A really good AT is still only a mind-reading approximation.
With my G37 I found that I had to drive the car much faster in order to achieve a similar level of driver/car engagement.
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger
On the street I think most modern sports cars can't really be driven in "anger". The capabilities are just too high. So for those it comes down to how much tactility they give you when driven at 6 or 7/10ths. Some are much better at that than others. For example, IMO that is a flaw of the current gen M4 (even a bit true of the previous E92). When driven at partial capacity they are sorta ho-hum and really only shine balls out on a track. A Cayman for example is a bit better at that.
For street driving slower is better. My favourite drive around here in Leon is definitely the E46. Precisely because of that.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 26, 2018, 08:48:21 AM
On the street I think most modern sports cars can't really be driven in "anger". The capabilities are just too high. So for those it comes down to how much tactility they give you when driven at 6 or 7/10ths. Some are much better at that than others. For example, IMO that is a flaw of the current gen M4 (even a bit true of the previous E92). When driven at partial capacity they are sorta ho-hum and really only shine balls out on a track. A Cayman for example is a bit better at that.
For street driving slower is better. My favourite drive around here in Leon is definitely the E46. Precisely because of that.
IDK E46's are still pretty fast.
I would probably say something like an NA Miata or basic Civic.
Take it from me, base Civic is a no go.
MCM you are right, even something with half the power of a 488 cannot really be caned on the street. Still though, speed matters. But so does the rest of the experience. Of the 8 cars I've owned my favorite to cruise around in was definitely my 2nd Maxima, solely due to the custom exhaust I put on it. On narrow NYC streets and in parking garages, hearing that exhaust crackle and pop always made my day. I suppose that wouldn't have been as enjoyable with a manual.
Still though even while 600HP is pretty much useless on the street I think ~120-150 isn't enough. But that also depends where you live.
300 hp is when things get fun
I like the 138HP of my Sonic
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.
Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger
I loved to drive the G fast, it's just really illegal.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 26, 2018, 10:51:45 AM
300 hp is when things get fun
300 is about what my Mustang GT convert had with the 5 speed manual, and about what my E38 has with the 5 speed sport autobox. And both were/are quite fun (the BMW handles better but the Mustang had the top that went down, so it was different sorts of fun).
Quote from: GoCougs on January 25, 2018, 03:06:35 PM
Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).
correct, they shift up or down without modulation. You can punch it WOT in first gear and it'll upshift as it gets to it's "programmed" shift point, unless you move the lever to hold it in gear. But with those, you could easily pop in a shift kit that changed shift points and changed how firm it shifted, making shifting nearly instantaneous and in many cases, only shifting when you moved the lever.
With both my former 6 speed manual turbo diesel Beetle and current 5 speed manual Crosstrek, it's sometimes pedal to the metal when overtaking or just for giggles. I like doing that.
Quote from: ChrisV on January 26, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
correct, they shift up or down without modulation. You can punch it WOT in first gear and it'll upshift as it gets to it's "programmed" shift point, unless you move the lever to hold it in gear. But with those, you could easily pop in a shift kit that changed shift points and changed how firm it shifted, making shifting nearly instantaneous and in many cases, only shifting when you moved the lever.
Actually, shift kits for old school slushies don't modify shift points. Shift points are modulated by the governor, hence governor kits.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
hearing that exhaust crackle and pop always made my day. I suppose that wouldn't have been as enjoyable with a manual.
...what? :wtf:
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 27, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
...what? :wtf:
Manuals make engines sound better. Less whining, less slurring, ability to rev the engine more freely etc.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 27, 2018, 04:44:42 PM
Manuals make engines sound better. Less whining, less slurring, ability to rev the engine more freely etc.
And that means less cracking and popping?
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 27, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
...what? :wtf:
I think he meant it wouldn't have been as enjoyable
without a manual.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 27, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
I think he meant it wouldn't have been as enjoyable without a manual.
Yes that's what I meant.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2018, 01:20:49 PM
Actually, shift kits for old school slushies don't modify shift points. Shift points are modulated by the governor, hence governor kits.
Auto/manual valve body is where it's at. Normal function in D, holds the gear if you put it in 1 or 2.
300 - 400hp RWD, manual IMO is the sweet spot for fun.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 28, 2018, 01:57:38 PM
300 - 400hp RWD, manual IMO is the sweet spot for fun.
Which makes the direction of the industry- substituting horsepower for character- that much more tragic.
Seems the best new drivers cars are mid rangers or even base models like a 230i or 911 Carrera, rather than the full fat performance models, if you don't have regular access to an air field or grand prix circuit.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.
Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....
To be clear, I don't get as much joy out of the shift itself as I do all the sensations that accompany a good shift: keeping the car balanced, matching the shift with the other inputs, putting the power down, feeling the overrun, etc... A big part of why I like driving aside from the scenery and feeling of freedom is the base-level sensory experience, and a manual allows you to plug into that process in a way that the auto just can't.