Manual vs. RWD

Started by Tave, January 19, 2018, 12:32:28 PM

Would you rather?

Drive a stick, but it has to be FWD
7 (58.3%)
Drive RWD, but it has to be an automatic
5 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 12

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Tave on January 24, 2018, 04:42:53 PM
I don't look at it as a novel skill as much as keeping you involved and contributing to the process in a way that (if you're doing it well) also makes you more attentive to the task at hand.

It's really easy to hedge your bets in an auto, but if you want to drive a manual fundamentally proper and smooth in all scenarios you have to pay attention. It's almost like a check against your own worse impulses, aside from the simple joy of being an active participant in the play. There's a certain satisfaction you get from being engaged.

Also, regardless of the advertised absolute speeds on shifts, virtually almost all affordable cars have enough lag between the paddle-pull and actual shift to make the exercise a phyrric victory. What good does .5 sec faster shifting give you if it happens .7 sec after you want it?
I really think it still depends. For example whenever I have to drive the Civic, I don't even think about the transmission. It's all very second nature to me at this point. If there is anything that gets my attention, it's simply how slow the damn thing is. That's what forces me to plan ahead and think about driving. And if I'm bombing through some twisties and I need to keep the revs up, the thought process is the same in the G. It's just the physical machination that differs, which is secondary or even tertiary as far as priorities go. With the Z or my bike, yea I have more control over the gears more of the time, but with their level of performance I can still afford to be lazy. So that's what I mean when I say after a certain point the engine doesn't matter. But with the Civic, if it were auto it would be damn near dangerous. Stick is more key at that level of performance.

I don't know that the paddle delay is that big of a deal either. In the G, again, maybe I'm just used to it by now, but it's been a while since I've been frustrated by the paddles. Obviously it's not instant like a good auto, but it's responsive enough for the street, and it will not upshift in sport/manual mode. Plus you have to figure, even the best manual driver will need that same half a second or so to blip and downshift. But there's never been a time where I hit the paddle to make a pass and it didn't work or let me down. With regular use you get used to it.
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GoCougs

Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 04:46:26 PM
Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.

It's a function of the design of the slushie AT. After all, it's just a fluid computer, with various elements, plenty of which aren't all that linear - TCU, torque converter, clutches, solenoids, sensors, pumps, and of course, fluid flowing about to make much of it happen. A cheap slushie just doesn't have the linearity for high(er) bandwidth response - weaker clutches, lower pressures, smaller/slower solenoids, etc.

GoCougs

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 24, 2018, 05:02:12 PM
First they have to unload the transmission (which is why every DCT car is throttle by wire), and engines still only drop RPM so fast.


A hi-po slushie AT w/paddle shifters (e.g., ZF 8 speed) is extremely responsive, both on the up and down shift, because it's designed to be (see previous post).

Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).

In a modern AT, either slushie or DCT, it's about matching engine speed to transmission input shaft speed; timing control to decrease RPM on the up shift (throttle control is way too slow) and throttle control to increase RPM on the down shift.

Tave

#63
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 25, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
I really think it still depends. For example whenever I have to drive the Civic, I don't even think about the transmission. It's all very second nature to me at this point. If there is anything that gets my attention, it's simply how slow the damn thing is. That's what forces me to plan ahead and think about driving. And if I'm bombing through some twisties and I need to keep the revs up, the thought process is the same in the G. It's just the physical machination that differs, which is secondary or even tertiary as far as priorities go. With the Z or my bike, yea I have more control over the gears more of the time, but with their level of performance I can still afford to be lazy. So that's what I mean when I say after a certain point the engine doesn't matter. But with the Civic, if it were auto it would be damn near dangerous. Stick is more key at that level of performance.

I don't know that the paddle delay is that big of a deal either. In the G, again, maybe I'm just used to it by now, but it's been a while since I've been frustrated by the paddles. Obviously it's not instant like a good auto, but it's responsive enough for the street, and it will not upshift in sport/manual mode. Plus you have to figure, even the best manual driver will need that same half a second or so to blip and downshift. But there's never been a time where I hit the paddle to make a pass and it didn't work or let me down. With regular use you get used to it.

I agree people shift manually more by feel than consciously doing the arithmetic, but I think you still need to be "in the moment" so to speak to really shift well and butter-smooth over a long period of time. You have to be focused at the task at hand not to get caught in the wrong gear at some point, or shift a little too early/late, or slip the clutch a hair, etc... None of those little wriggles are bad if you're otherwise driving safely; it's not like you're grinding gears or stalling the car or anything like that--just not perfect. At least I have those issues, and I have fun trying to do as well as I possibly can. But on a more simple, basic level, to me personally the manual provides an engaging and active level of interaction with the entire sensory experience that the auto can't match.

It's true, on great autos the lag isn't so bad, but regardless you still sacrifice quite a bit of control over the character of the shift. At the end of the day, I don't really care about shifting an extra 300 milliseconds faster than I can on my own because it absolutely never matters on the street. But the ability to exercise complete control over the shift--start and end the shift precisely when you want, shift slow at fast speeds, shift fast at slow speeds, (and vice versa), drag the shift out or cut it off, anything in between...--actually makes a noticeable difference.

Sure the better autos have some progression built into them and try to anticipate your needs, but they still lack the infinite number of gradations the analog control provides and can't always do the counterintuitive shifts, modulate the shift according to road/traffic conditions, and so forth. Not a huge deal by any means, and maybe it's anal of me to think about that minutia, but it makes driving fun for me.
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Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Laconian

For me it's not about performance so much as it's about having finer control over the driving character of the car. A really good AT is still only a mind-reading approximation.

With my G37 I found that I had to drive the car much faster in order to achieve a similar level of driver/car engagement.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: GoCougs on January 25, 2018, 03:06:35 PM

A hi-po slushie AT w/paddle shifters (e.g., ZF 8 speed) is extremely responsive, both on the up and down shift, because it's designed to be (see previous post).

Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).

In a modern AT, either slushie or DCT, it's about matching engine speed to transmission input shaft speed; timing control to decrease RPM on the up shift (throttle control is way too slow) and throttle control to increase RPM on the down shift.

This is exactly what I mean; matching engine speed to transmission imput shaft speed.
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12,000 RPM

Quote from: Tave on January 25, 2018, 05:28:40 PM
I agree people shift manually more by feel than consciously doing the arithmetic, but I think you still need to be "in the moment" so to speak to really shift well and butter-smooth over a long period of time. You have to be focused at the task at hand not to get caught in the wrong gear at some point, or shift a little too early/late, or slip the clutch a hair, etc... None of those little wriggles are bad if you're otherwise driving safely; it's not like you're are grinding gears or stalling the car or anything like that--just not perfect. At least I have those issues, and I have fun trying to do as well as I possibly can. But on a more simple, basic level, to me personally the manual provides an engaging and active level of interaction with the entire sensory experience that the auto can't match.

It's true, on great autos the lag isn't so bad, but regardless you still sacrifice quite a bit of control over the character of the shift. At the end of the day, I don't really care about shifting an extra 300 milliseconds faster than I can on my own because it absolutely never matters on the street. But the ability to exercise complete control over the shift--start and end the shift precisely when you want, shift slow at fast speeds, shift fast at slow speeds, (and vice versa), drag the shift out or cut it off, anything in between...--actually makes a noticeable difference.

Sure the better autos have some progression built into them and try to anticipate your needs, but they still lack the infinite number of gradations the analog control provides and can't always do the counterintuitive shifts, modulate the shift according to road/traffic conditions, and so forth. Not a huge deal by any means, and maybe it's anal of me to think about that minutia, but it makes driving fun for me.
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.

Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....

Quote from: Laconian on January 25, 2018, 05:36:14 PM
For me it's not about performance so much as it's about having finer control over the driving character of the car. A really good AT is still only a mind-reading approximation.

With my G37 I found that I had to drive the car much faster in order to achieve a similar level of driver/car engagement.
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger
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MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger

On the street I think most modern sports cars can't really be driven in "anger". The capabilities are just too high. So for those it comes down to how much tactility they give you when driven at 6 or 7/10ths. Some are much better at that than others. For example, IMO that is a flaw of the current gen M4 (even a bit true of the previous E92). When driven at partial capacity they are sorta ho-hum and really only shine balls out on a track. A Cayman for example is a bit better at that.

For street driving slower is better. My favourite drive around here in Leon is definitely the E46. Precisely because of that.

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2o6

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 26, 2018, 08:48:21 AM
On the street I think most modern sports cars can't really be driven in "anger". The capabilities are just too high. So for those it comes down to how much tactility they give you when driven at 6 or 7/10ths. Some are much better at that than others. For example, IMO that is a flaw of the current gen M4 (even a bit true of the previous E92). When driven at partial capacity they are sorta ho-hum and really only shine balls out on a track. A Cayman for example is a bit better at that.

For street driving slower is better. My favourite drive around here in Leon is definitely the E46. Precisely because of that.


IDK E46's are still pretty fast.


I would probably say something like an NA Miata or basic Civic.

12,000 RPM

Take it from me, base Civic is a no go.

MCM you are right, even something with half the power of a 488 cannot really be caned on the street. Still though, speed matters. But so does the rest of the experience. Of the 8 cars I've owned my favorite to cruise around in was definitely my 2nd Maxima, solely due to the custom exhaust I put on it. On narrow NYC streets and in parking garages, hearing that exhaust crackle and pop always made my day. I suppose that wouldn't have been as enjoyable with a manual.

Still though even while 600HP is pretty much useless on the street I think ~120-150 isn't enough. But that also depends where you live.
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CaminoRacer

300 hp is when things get fun
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2o6

I like the 138HP of my Sonic

Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.

Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....
I think everyone has a "thought speed" for driving. For most people it's like half throttle on a CR-V. For you it seems like it's the Miata. For me it's the G. It's as fast as I can comfortably think/react. So there is definitely the possibility for cars to be too fast for the road. Most people just don't have the skill or reflexes to drive something like a 488 GTB in anger

I loved to drive the G fast, it's just really illegal.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

ChrisV

Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 26, 2018, 10:51:45 AM
300 hp is when things get fun

300 is about what my Mustang GT convert had with the 5 speed manual, and about what my E38 has with the 5 speed sport autobox. And both were/are quite fun (the BMW handles better but the Mustang had the top that went down, so it was different sorts of fun).

Quote from: GoCougs on January 25, 2018, 03:06:35 PM

Does a Turbo 350 or TorqueFlight 727 of yore need to be "unloaded" before shifting, either up or down, under throttle? (As we know they up/down shift without any need of modulation of throttle/load).


correct, they shift up or down without modulation. You can punch it WOT in first gear and it'll upshift as it gets to it's "programmed" shift point, unless you move the lever to hold it in gear. But with those, you could easily pop in a shift kit that changed shift points and changed how firm it shifted, making shifting nearly instantaneous and in many cases, only shifting when you moved the lever.
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With both my former 6 speed manual turbo diesel Beetle and current 5 speed manual Crosstrek, it's sometimes pedal to the metal when overtaking or just for giggles.  I like doing that. 

GoCougs

Quote from: ChrisV on January 26, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
correct, they shift up or down without modulation. You can punch it WOT in first gear and it'll upshift as it gets to it's "programmed" shift point, unless you move the lever to hold it in gear. But with those, you could easily pop in a shift kit that changed shift points and changed how firm it shifted, making shifting nearly instantaneous and in many cases, only shifting when you moved the lever.

Actually, shift kits for old school slushies don't modify shift points. Shift points are modulated by the governor, hence governor kits.

giant_mtb

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
hearing that exhaust crackle and pop always made my day. I suppose that wouldn't have been as enjoyable with a manual.

...what? :wtf:

12,000 RPM

Quote from: giant_mtb on January 27, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
...what? :wtf:
Manuals make engines sound better. Less whining, less slurring, ability to rev the engine more freely etc.
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MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 27, 2018, 04:44:42 PM
Manuals make engines sound better. Less whining, less slurring, ability to rev the engine more freely etc.

And that means less cracking and popping?
Needs more Jiggawatts

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CaminoRacer

Quote from: giant_mtb on January 27, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
...what? :wtf:

I think he meant it wouldn't have been as enjoyable without a manual.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

12,000 RPM

Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 27, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
I think he meant it wouldn't have been as enjoyable without a manual.
Yes that's what I meant.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CaminoRacer

Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2018, 01:20:49 PM
Actually, shift kits for old school slushies don't modify shift points. Shift points are modulated by the governor, hence governor kits.

Auto/manual valve body is where it's at. Normal function in D, holds the gear if you put it in 1 or 2.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MexicoCityM3

300 - 400hp RWD, manual IMO is the sweet spot for fun.
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'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
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12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 28, 2018, 01:57:38 PM
300 - 400hp RWD, manual IMO is the sweet spot for fun.
Which makes the direction of the industry- substituting horsepower for character- that much more tragic.

Seems the best new drivers cars are mid rangers or even base models like a 230i or 911 Carrera, rather than the full fat performance models, if you don't have regular access to an air field or grand prix circuit.
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Tave

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not you feel rewarded by completing a smooth shift. I personally don't... it's just not something I think about.

Plus there are some shitty ass manuals out there. After the Z I said if I get another FM car it's gonna be automatic. The stickshift is that bad. There are kits to fix the clutch and shorten the shifter, but at this point I just can't be bothered. It will never be as good as the gold standard to me (old Hondas) so why bother....

To be clear, I don't get as much joy out of the shift itself as I do all the sensations that accompany a good shift: keeping the car balanced, matching the shift with the other inputs, putting the power down, feeling the overrun, etc... A big part of why I like driving aside from the scenery and feeling of freedom is the base-level sensory experience, and a manual allows you to plug into that process in a way that the auto just can't.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.