New Wrangler. Subtle exterior tweaks (front end, tail lights, hood latches). Available 2.0L turbo and 8-spd auto, Pentastar and diesel also available. Same ol' Wrangler offroad prowess. Supposedly can shove 35s under it with no lift. Power-operated soft top on certain models!
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a12484088/2018-jeep-wrangler-jl-truck-release-date-info-news/
e-brochure: https://www.jeep.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/jeep/en_us/global/pdf/brochure/Jeep-Wrangler-(JL)-Reveal-Brochure-(2018).pdf
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/jp018-043wrfejenssl15sdifb1noir03rrpf-1509494250.jpg?crop=1.00xw:0.753xh;0,0.168xh&resize=4098:*)
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/jp018-124wrm8kh1i531cj1c0k1lflpt268q3-1509494423.jpg?crop=0.841xw:0.631xh;0.0851xw,0.337xh&resize=4098:*)
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/jp018-214wr6pojqi09dftkv5q2771dfkfmud-1510156191.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=4098:*)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCGI671m9oQ
I've always liked those 4-door ones. May be my favorite late model vehicle. :ohyeah:
Wait, what changed?
This is a big deal
I still don't understand these as daily drivers but I look forward to reading reviews.
Hopefully they bring back the Renegade :muffin:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 06, 2017, 05:38:58 PM
Wait, what changed?
What happened is they slapped some new bumpers (Circa aftermarket 2013), LED Headlights (Circa 2015) and New fenders (Circa 1995) on and called it new......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on December 06, 2017, 11:54:02 PM
What happened is they slapped some new bumpers (Circa aftermarket 2013), LED Headlights (Circa 2015) and New fenders (Circa 1995) on and called it new......
Sounds right!
The best amount of change for the Wrangler is the least amount of change.
It's a bumper to bumper overhaul. Like a 911, the general design isn't going to change much. I really like the new interior. The model I'm most interested in is the Scrambler pickup.
(http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-738-415/public/copyright-jlwranglerforums-jt-pickup-sand.jpg?itok=E9OYnBUO)
https://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2018-jeep-wrangler-an-all-new-version-of-an-icon-official-photos-and-info-gallery#1
Also push button start and back-up camera are standard. Option of LED headlights. Can even get a full time AWD version. Also lighter due to more aluminum use.
It's a win all around.
The pick-up version should be offered in 2019.
The ends of the front bumper can be easily removed for zero obstruction in front of the tire. There are built-in bolt slots to keep the hardware from the doors/windshield/etc so it doesn't get lost. Wannnnnnnt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLj9D4vo56Q
This thing is getting bigger and bigger. Will there eventually be room for a mini Wrangler?
Eh, a 2-door is still fairly compact.
But yeah, eventually! I think they call it the Cherokee right now. :lol:
I used to like the 4 door but I'd get an old flat fender if I was shopping for a Wrangler now.
Quote from: Rockraven on December 07, 2017, 05:52:19 AM
It's a bumper to bumper overhaul. Like a 911, the general design isn't going to change much. I really like the new interior. The model I'm most interested in is the Scrambler pickup.
(http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-738-415/public/copyright-jlwranglerforums-jt-pickup-sand.jpg?itok=E9OYnBUO)
Huh, that's about the only interesting Wrangler thing I've ever seen.
I've seen two of the new Wranglers on the road this week. I'm not a fan of the updated front end. The LED strips on the fenders make it look like it has eyelash extensions or something.
(https://img.newchic.com/thumb/large/oaupload/newchic/images/1F/78/82f726fa-2dc9-4263-bb46-ad8d4b81d0d1.jpg)
I'd post what lesser SUV's remind me of, but vadge pics aren't allowed.
https://jalopnik.com/holy-crap-the-jeep-wrangler-is-nearly-outselling-the-to-1825738359
Quote
Whether the Wrangler's recent sales trends will continue, it's hard to know. The JK's assembly line is being re-tooled to produce a new Jeep truck after the outgoing Wrangler ceased production last Friday, so the JL will have to rake in the sales all on its lonesome.
Still, despite the JK's departure, it wouldn't be surprising if the Wrangler's streak continued; one of the major factors holding back sales of the outgoing JK model was Jeep's inability to build enough of the things to meet demand. In 2016, Jeep announced that it was investing $350 million to move the Jeep Cherokee from Toledo (where the Wrangler is built) to the Belvidere Assembly Plant in Illinois. On top of that, the brand said it was dropping $700 million into the Toledo Assembly Complex to "retool the North plant to produce the next generation Jeep Wrangler."
So yes, the Wrangler sold at numbers on par with the Toyota Camry this month because the JK and JL were both available for 2018; but one of the bigger factors than there being two Wranglers is the fact that Jeep may finally have the manufacturing capacity to meet demand, and that means the JL's streak may continue for quite some time.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 18, 2018, 11:28:42 AM
I'd post what lesser SUV's remind me of, but vadge pics aren't allowed.
ROFL
I can't believe that this thing came within a few units of outselling the Camry. That's nuts
How long until Chrysler is only selling a minivan, the RAM, and the Wrangler?
Quote from: Rich on May 03, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
I can't believe that this thing came within a few units of outselling the Camry. That's nuts
Yeah! But these things are pretty cheap compared to some of these midsized sedans, CUVs and SUVs....
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 03, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
Yeah! But these things are pretty cheap compared to some of these midsized sedans, CUVs and SUVs....
:confused:
Here a base-model 'Sport', two-door, is $34,000. A four-door is almost $42,000. Feature-for-feature they're waaaaay more expensive than the average cute-ute or Camry.
Quote from: 93JC on May 03, 2018, 04:17:47 PM
:confused:
Here a base-model 'Sport', two-door, is $34,000. A four-door is almost $42,000. Feature-for-feature they're waaaaay more expensive than the average cute-ute or Camry.
The new ones start at 27K here. Leftover JKs start at 23K.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 03, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
Yeah! But these things are pretty cheap compared to some of these midsized sedans, CUVs and SUVs....
It's not the price, it's the image. They literally go crazy for them down here.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 03, 2018, 07:10:09 PM
It's not the price, it's the image. They literally go crazy for them down here.
I look at prices once in a while, would make a good convertible that you can take into the woods.
But holy grillsmoke, batman!! They're always way over-priced. Even with bad rep for longevity everyone wants them.
FCA should take its buyers for every last penny. They need them
Might as well buy a brand new one, cuz the used ones are just as expensive
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 03, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
Might as well buy a brand new one, cuz the used ones are just as expensive
This is true.....
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 03, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
Might as well buy a brand new one, cuz the used ones are just as expensive
... and then like a Harley, your required to spend at least 1/3 the value of the thing on useless accessories
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 03, 2018, 07:16:59 PM
I look at prices once in a while, would make a good convertible that you can take into the woods.
But holy grillsmoke, batman!! They're always way over-priced. Even with bad rep for longevity everyone wants them.
Bad rep for longevity? The average one I see on the road is 15-20+ years old.
Some of these are the old style mixed with the new...
http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/cars/jeep/wrangler/on/carrying%20place/?rcp=15&rcs=0&srt=3&prx=100&prv=Ontario&loc=K0K%201L0&hprc=True&wcp=True&sts=New&showcpo=1&inMarket=advancedSearch
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShowyUnknownAmericangoldfinch-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 03, 2018, 07:16:59 PM
I look at prices once in a while, would make a good convertible that you can take into the woods.
But holy grillsmoke, batman!! They're always way over-priced. Even with bad rep for longevity everyone wants them.
Bad rep for longevity? Wranglers are one of the only reliable products FCA has. :nutty:
Yea... The amount of people spending $45k+ for vehicles that absolutely suck on the highway, have shit for cargo space, and will never be taken on anything more off-road then a gravel road is astonishing
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 04, 2018, 07:29:21 AM
Bad rep for longevity? Wranglers are one of the only reliable products FCA has. :nutty:
I couldn't call them all that reliable. There are a lot of old wranglers on the road - but I don't know if many that havent had some serious work put into them (thankfully though they are cheap and simple to fix).
Quote from: r0tor on May 04, 2018, 09:36:13 AM
Yea... The amount of people spending $45k+ for vehicles that absolutely suck on the highway, have shit for cargo space, and will never be taken on anything more off-road then a gravel road is astonishing
Other people spend $45K+ for vehicles that absolutely suck offroad and in the winter, have shit for cargo space, and will never be taken on a race track. They're called sportscars.
Quote from: r0tor on May 04, 2018, 09:38:18 AM
I couldn't call them all that reliable. There are a lot of old wranglers on the road - but I don't know if many that havent had some serious work put into them (thankfully though they are cheap and simple to fix).
Wow. An old car that has had work put into it???
the people I know that have 10yr old Jeeps have spent far more on regular maintenance than my 15yr old 200k+ miles minivan has undergone....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 04, 2018, 01:30:16 PM
the people I know that have 10yr old Jeeps have spent far more on regular maintenance than my 15yr old 200k+ miles minivan has undergone....
Yes, because
a) pride of ownership,
b) easy to maintain,
c) many owners like to take them offroad.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 04, 2018, 10:01:45 AM
Other people spend $45K+ for vehicles that absolutely suck offroad and in the winter, have shit for cargo space, and will never be taken on a race track. They're called sportscars.
Sportscars are fun to drive on the street, though. The point is that Wranglers suck to drive on the street, where all cars spend 99% of their time.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 04, 2018, 03:13:09 PM
Sportscars are fun to drive on the street, though. The point is that Wranglers suck to drive on the street, where all cars spend 99% of their time.
I hear this but why do they suck on the street? Because they can't pull .9 G? Top down, at legal speeds, it's perfectly enjoyable. In most cases, more fun than a mainstream car.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 04, 2018, 01:30:16 PM
the people I know that have 10yr old Jeeps have spent far more on regular maintenance than my 15yr old 200k+ miles minivan has undergone....
If we're being completely fair, those people also probably enjoy their car far more than your minivan.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 04, 2018, 06:06:11 PM
I hear this but why do they suck on the street? Because they can't pull .9 G? Top down, at legal speeds, it's perfectly enjoyable. In most cases, more fun than a mainstream car.
Wranglers are fucking miserable on the road... Loud, terrible wind noise, shitty ride, shitty brakes, shitty acceleration, horrendous steering
Quote from: r0tor on May 04, 2018, 08:01:57 PM
Wranglers are fucking miserable on the road... Loud, terrible wind noise, shitty ride, shitty brakes, shitty acceleration, horrendous steering
Is not the newest one better at coming close to squaring the circle?
Quote from: r0tor on May 04, 2018, 08:01:57 PM
Wranglers are fucking miserable on the road... Loud, terrible wind noise, shitty ride, shitty brakes, shitty acceleration, horrendous steering
Oh yeah. I had a rental for 10 days in HI. Truly mediocre on-road experience for all the reasons you list. The hardtop roof was a flimsy contraption that was a big hassle to set up and tear down. I'm sure they're great off road, but we didn't get a chance to try that out beyond just some mild unpaved sections.
I love how people expect a vehicle with front and rear solid axles and serious off road prowess to be a gem on the road. lol
The top isn't that complicated. As a detailer, it took me 2-3 to get familiar with it. It's not rocket appliances.
The soft top takes a seasoned owner 10-14 minutes to put up/down.
I don't expect the thing to be great on-road. I rented one at the beach and was fantastic driving around the dunes. Fact is like most SUVs, 95% of the owners will never go on anything more then a gravel road though - which makes the purchase completely bonkers.
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 05, 2018, 12:02:07 AM
I love how people expect a vehicle with front and rear solid axles and serious off road prowess to be a gem on the road. lol
.....?
I don't think anyone expects it to be good on road- they're all simply stating that it sucks on road.
Quote from: r0tor on May 04, 2018, 09:36:13 AM
Yea... The amount of people spending $45k+ for vehicles that absolutely suck on the highway, have shit for cargo space, and will never be taken on anything more off-road then a gravel road is astonishing
But you were the guy dumping on people for buying crossovers with shitty AWD systems
Can't win
...yea, no room for a happy medium...
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 05, 2018, 09:41:08 AM
.....?
I don't think anyone expects it to be good on road- they're all simply stating that it sucks on road.
:hesaid:
My takeaway is that Wranglers are built to be "so bad they're good." The on-road punishment is part of the authentic experience, or something.
The Wrangler, like an Elise, is a very compromised vehicle with an emphasis on off-road ruggedness over on-road comfort and prowess. Nothing wrong with that. What's somewhat baffling is why such a compromised vehicle, often not used to it's capability or for it's intended purpose, has been such a sales success when compared to other types of "niche" vehicles that are equally compromised or impractical.
Quote from: MX793 on May 05, 2018, 07:29:56 PM
The Wrangler, like an Elise, is a very compromised vehicle with an emphasis on off-road ruggedness over on-road comfort and prowess. Nothing wrong with that. What's somewhat baffling is why such a compromised vehicle, often not used to it's capability or for it's intended purpose, has been such a sales success when compared to other types of "niche" vehicles that are equally compromised or impractical.
Image, H&H.
Quote from: MX793 on May 05, 2018, 07:29:56 PM
The Wrangler, like an Elise, is a very compromised vehicle with an emphasis on off-road ruggedness over on-road comfort and prowess. Nothing wrong with that. What's somewhat baffling is why such a compromised vehicle, often not used to it's capability or for it's intended purpose, has been such a sales success when compared to other types of "niche" vehicles that are equally compromised or impractical.
You can seat five adults in a Wrangler compared to about one and a half in an Elise.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 05, 2018, 07:34:44 PM
Image, H&H.
Image for sure. People spend a lot of money and go to great uncomfortable lengths in order to project the image of themselves they want.
It would be fun to have a Wrangler provided that I lived in a place where I could enjoy it often - but even still, I'd probably be wracked with guilt for all the erosion I'd be causing. ;)
One of the reasons they sell is simply because they're kind of unique. Very utilitarian looking. Also a crapload of accessories both functional and styling related. They can be made even more unique.
Quote from: Laconian on May 05, 2018, 08:52:24 PM
It would be fun to have a Wrangler provided that I lived in a place where I could enjoy it often - but even still, I'd probably be wracked with guilt for all the erosion I'd be causing. ;)
Designated trails, fire roads, and even 4x4 parks exist. There's no need to be destructive just taking these things where they're supposed to go.
Quote from: Laconian on May 04, 2018, 10:03:09 PM
Oh yeah. I had a rental for 10 days in HI. Truly mediocre on-road experience for all the reasons you list. The hardtop roof was a flimsy contraption that was a big hassle to set up and tear down. I'm sure they're great off road, but we didn't get a chance to try that out beyond just some mild unpaved sections.
They're very popular around here, as are Subarus: good for getting around on the 20% and up grades on a lot of the roads & driveways. I seen some driveways where you could legitimately justify installing a winch to reel your car up & down. Why someone would choose a Wrangler over a Subie? I'm guessing for the top-down fun in the summer, and the recreational/leisure image....
Subarus have a big recreational image too, but it's more "tread lightly and remember to bag up your poop" and less "fuck your topsoil".
A winch to get in your own driveway? Damn
Quote from: Laconian on May 06, 2018, 11:19:12 AM
Subarus have a big recreational image too, but it's more "tread lightly and remember to bag up your poop" and less "fuck your topsoil".
A winch to get in your own driveway? Damn
Some of that is unfair (for both brands).
Some of it isn't though.
Yeah, I've never seen some jabroni in a Subaru tearing up dirt pretending to be a rally driver...
The guys who tear up dirt here are generally driving something much larger than a Jeep; Broncos, Blazers, etc. are still the rides of choice for "goin' muddin'"...
Quote from: shp4man on May 05, 2018, 09:00:29 PM
One of the reasons they sell is simply because they're kind of unique. Very utilitarian looking. Also a crapload of accessories both functional and styling related. They can be made even more unique.
Something that sells as much as a Camry cannot be unique IMO :lol:
I think a lot of people are flat out panicked about maintaining a certain image at all costs.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 06, 2018, 08:08:35 PM
Something that sells as much as a Camry cannot be unique IMO :lol:
I think a lot of people are flat out panicked about maintaining a certain image at all costs.
Not maintaining and image so much as standing out from the crowd.
Quote from: ifcar on May 05, 2018, 08:23:41 PM
You can seat five adults in a Wrangler compared to about one and a half in an Elise.
In the more recent, LWB 4-models, sure. But the Wrangler was hugely popular before that and older models (pre-2006) were a 2+2 with no luggage space if utilizing the rear seat for passengers.
Quote from: shp4man on May 06, 2018, 11:32:12 PM
Not maintaining and image so much as standing out from the crowd.
Because driving the same thing as millions of other people stands out in the crowd.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 04, 2018, 01:30:16 PM
the people I know that have 10yr old Jeeps have spent far more on regular maintenance than my 15yr old 200k+ miles minivan has undergone....
Quote from: Rockraven on May 04, 2018, 02:57:27 PM
Yes, because
a) pride of ownership,
b) easy to maintain,
c) many owners like to take them offroad.
and/or Jeeps aren't reliable vehicles.
JD Power is somewhat skewed because it's based on buyer perception https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2016/02/25/jeep-much-maligned-much-loved-much-valued/#476e43189a44
But it rates pretty low on just reliability https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/jeep/wrangler/reliability
But for sure if I could get a cheap Jeep I would get one. Top-down summer fun, winter "screw you snow" capability, and go out into the woods with ease.
Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2018, 06:35:19 AM
Because driving the same thing as millions of other people stands out in the crowd.
LOL exactly. You can customize your Jeep as much as you want but it'll still look just the same as all the other customized Jerps.
It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand. :rolleyes:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 07, 2018, 09:38:54 AM
LOL exactly. You can customize your Jeep as much as you want but it'll still look just the same as all the other customized Jerps.
But they all wave to one another as they pass, so its a big club. Just like Harleys (Ok, yes, I have owned a Jeep or teo)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 07, 2018, 12:07:20 PM
But they all wave to one another as they pass, so its a big club. Just like Harleys (Ok, yes, I have owned a Jeep or teo)
I was cruising around in my El Camino yesterday and I saw multiple classic cars. Waved to a '56 Buick, they didn't pay attention. The other one was a C1 Vette that passed me on the highway and didn't even acknowledge my existence. Jerks.
NA Miata owners flip their headlights.
Quote from: Laconian on May 07, 2018, 02:50:12 PM
NA Miata owners flip their headlights.
Haven't seen anyone do it here. They just wave.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 07, 2018, 02:59:19 PM
Haven't seen anyone do it here. They just wave.
(https://i.imgur.com/xrEgL1n.png?1)
The one time I passed another late model white woody Ford station wagon, both of us wave our whole arms like absolute twats.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ufUAAOxy3NBSesT6/s-l300.jpg)
Civic Si owners will sometimes nod at each other. This is only after we look at our choice of rims and approve of course.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 07, 2018, 02:59:19 PM
Haven't seen anyone do it here. They just wave.
Same for Vette owners........
Us subaru guys blow vape smoke in each other's faces. It's like a no homo way of making out and telling the other person cool subie bro
Quote from: 68_427 on May 08, 2018, 05:19:39 AM
Us subaru guys blow vape smoke in each other's faces. It's like a no homo way of making out and telling the other person cool subie bro
I've probably mentoned it before, but there's a Subaru 'round these parts with the vanity plate "vapebro"
Quote from: 68_427 on May 08, 2018, 05:19:39 AM
Us subaru guys blow vape smoke in each other's faces. It's like a no homo way of making out and telling the other person cool subie bro
LOLLLL
Here, for every punk in a WRX-wannabe 2.5RS, there are five active-lifestyle Lesbarus.
Quote from: Laconian on May 08, 2018, 11:19:13 AM
LOLLLL
Here, for every punk in a WRX-wannabe 2.5RS, there are five active-lifestyle Lesbarus.
I once saw an SVX at a rest stop in Idaho. Definitely Lesbaru. Way before that was mainstream, mid 90s?
My lesbian friend in college rocked a DL wagon with a broken turbo. A tooootal piece of shit, but it got us to the trailheads :rockon:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 08, 2018, 11:30:19 AM
I once saw an SVX at a rest stop in Idaho. Definitely Lesbaru. Way before that was mainstream, mid 90s?
SVX was a GREAT GT car. The engine is butter smooth and it has really tall gearing. The glass design made wind noise quiet down and you could have all four windows down @100mph and still talk to your passenger.
What happened to yours?
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 08, 2018, 06:30:14 PM
What happened to yours?
Putting the engine in my Outback
Nice, but kind of a waste of a cool Japanese GT body
Quote from: Laconian on May 08, 2018, 10:44:56 PM
Nice, but kind of a waste of a cool Japanese GT body
It was a salvage title and eBay half miler. The shell is going to someone don't worry
I've got a colleague at work who is a 60 plus year old 5 ft tall 90 lb woman who drives an old school Jeep Wrangler to work. People say, I haven't been to it, that she has a Trump style super luxury apartment in Manhattan.
I think one of the appealing things about Jeeps is that they are kind of a balancing force against modern foofoo.
Modern cars are being slowly killed by regulatory and shareholder constraints. It is a bit of a bummer.
Jack Baruth did a great review on a Morgan 3 wheeler and the big takeaway for me was how much people enjoyed its uniqueness. As ubiquitous as Wranglers are becoming they are still unlike pretty much anything else on the road. I can't knock someone who values that
My biggest gripe with Wranglers is the punk ass kids driving around blasting music they think everybody wants to hear and not clearly paying attention to what they're actually doing.
So, small beans.
I've decided I should build an old Willy's Jeep with a Mustang II front subframe and stick 335 tires all the way around. People have done lots of ratrod Jeeps, but I don't think I've seen a racecar version. (I've seen a racecar Cherokee, however)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 10, 2018, 07:59:26 AM
Modern cars are being slowly killed by regulatory and shareholder constraints. It is a bit of a bummer.
Jack Baruth did a great review on a Morgan 3 wheeler and the big takeaway for me was how much people enjoyed its uniqueness. As ubiquitous as Wranglers are becoming they are still unlike pretty much anything else on the road. I can't knock someone who values that
This.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 10, 2018, 09:48:48 AM
People have done lots of ratrod Jeeps, but I don't think I've seen a racecar version. (I've seen a racecar Cherokee, however)
(http://becauseracecar.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/JEEP-AT-SEARS-POINT-650x430.jpg)
:lol: :praise:
One of our autocross regulars is prepping an old Grancho for auto-x. He apparently found a cheap, V8 model so he's lowering it and widening the track to make it legal. I guess he plans to run it at our next event.
Those V8s pulled pretty good.
Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2018, 07:16:51 PM
One of our autocross regulars is prepping an old Grancho for auto-x. He apparently found a cheap, V8 model so he's lowering it and widening the track to make it legal. I guess he plans to run it at our next event.
Is there a required width to height ratio?
Quote from: Galaxy on May 11, 2018, 02:47:40 PM
Is there a required width to height ratio?
Yes. The SCCA calculates a rollover rating based on CG height and width, but for vehicles not listed, there's a height/width ratio guideline for event tech inspectors to use as guidance.
Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2018, 04:22:06 PM
Yes. The SCCA calculates a rollover rating based on CG height and width, but for vehicles not listed, there's a height/width ratio guideline for event tech inspectors to use as guidance.
I am assuming no one shows up in a Mitsubishi Delica Star Wagon. :lol:
Quote from: Galaxy on May 11, 2018, 05:31:04 PM
I am assuming no one shows up in a Mitsubishi Delica Star Wagon. :lol:
They weren't sold here, so no.
Amongst cars inelligible to compete in stock form are the Ford Fiesta (non-ST), Fiat 500 (non-Abarth), and 2nd generation Scion xB. We've had to turn away a NISMO Juke and an SRT Cherokee.
Quote from: MX793 on May 12, 2018, 05:59:02 AM
They weren't sold here, so no.
Amongst cars inelligible to compete in stock form are the Ford Fiesta (non-ST), Fiat 500 (non-Abarth), and 2nd generation Scion xB. We've had to turn away a NISMO Juke and an SRT Cherokee.
Is the Sonic allowed?
Quote from: 2o6 on May 12, 2018, 03:19:30 PM
Is the Sonic allowed?
https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/019/022/2017-01-17-appendix-A-automobile-classes.pdf?1484693257
Yep, in H.
(https://images.carscoops.com/2018/11/d05d25a0-jeep-pickup-truck-teased-fca-dealers-1.jpg)
Quote from: 68_427 on November 12, 2018, 04:49:45 PM
(https://images.carscoops.com/2018/11/d05d25a0-jeep-pickup-truck-teased-fca-dealers-1.jpg)
Yeah there have been testing mules all over the damn place for the past few months.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2020-jeep-scrambler-edit7-1525274349.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=900:*)
Perfect pickup for those who don't really need a pickup. I love it.
I hope there's a 2 door cab longbed version.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--q6BysPu0--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/zprcjzlx3w4yfg65xzm8.jpg)
https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-jeep-gladiator-pickup-truck-this-is-it-1830439869
Quote from: Rockraven on November 13, 2018, 12:57:52 PM
I hope there's a 2 door cab longbed version.
I hope so too!
Quote from: heelntoe on November 14, 2018, 02:56:32 PM
https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-jeep-gladiator-pickup-truck-this-is-it-1830439869
Wow, I think the biggest thing here is that it has legit towing capability (7,650 lbs). The Unlimited can only do 3500, and the 2-door is 2000.
3.0L v6 diesel with max towing of 7600lbs available
Very cool. Kinda weird to see such a long Wrangler, though. :lol:
Quote from: 93JC on November 14, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
Likely never going to happen.
If I can't haul my ATV it's dead to me.
Long beds and especially two-door "regular cabs" are increasingly rare, almost entirely now within the purview of the fleet sales managers who sell full-size pickups in "Work Truck" trim. Most trucks are toys now; four-door vehicles that are used to shuttle the kids to soccer practice.
The Wrangler pickup is just a toy, a "lifestyle choice", and FCA will sell oodles of them. Believe me: you might give a shit about a long-bed "work truck" version, but the vast majority of potential buyers couldn't care less.
Seeing a newer RCSB Silverado gives me willy a jump.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 14, 2018, 06:19:24 PM
Seeing a newer RCSB Silverado gives me willy a jump.
I got three RCSB trucks in front of my house. Willy be jumpin all up in my business.
Quote from: 93JC on November 14, 2018, 06:07:58 PM
Long beds and especially two-door "regular cabs" are increasingly rare, almost entirely now within the purview of the fleet sales managers who sell full-size pickups in "Work Truck" trim. Most trucks are toys now; four-door vehicles that are used to shuttle the kids to soccer practice.
The Wrangler pickup is just a toy, a "lifestyle choice", and FCA will sell oodles of them. Believe me: you might give a shit about a long-bed "work truck" version, but the vast majority of potential buyers couldn't care less.
:hesaid:
It's a real cool looking toy. Someone who actually needs a pickup like a landscaper would never get this. A half ton work truck is gonna be cheaper and more reliable and a 3/4 ton pickup can be used to plow in the winter much better than this would. This Jeep truck is for tailgating at the football game, going skiing, hunting, etc.
Quote from: veeman on November 14, 2018, 08:27:36 PM
:hesaid:
It's a real cool looking toy. Someone who actually needs a pickup like a landscaper would never get this. A half ton work truck is gonna be cheaper and more reliable and a 3/4 ton pickup can be used to plow in the winter much better than this would. This Jeep truck is for tailgating at the football game, going skiing, hunting, etc.
It'll still be good for off-roading too. I expect to see quite a few of these in CO. Throw a bed cover on the back and you essentially have an Unlimited with extra gear space that can also tow a decent sized camper. You can see in the picture that the soft top goes down the wall behind the rear seats, so I'm sure there will be roof kits that enclose the cabin and bed together too.
But yeah, this is a family vehicle that can go off-road, not a work truck.
If they do this they should do a troopy version.
The truck looks very nice, much better then the Tonka trucks. The rear end has an almost old school look like trucks of the past, the rear lights remind me of the 1980s GMC Sierra.
The one thing that bothers me is the weird cut out of the rear doors. In 4 door Wrangler this is where the wheel arch would be, but on the truck the wheels are further back. They really should have made new doors for this, since this looks like a back alley shop cobbled it together.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--er33g-md--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ljsvyxtztytlced0mykb.jpg)
Quote from: Galaxy on November 15, 2018, 01:05:07 PM
The one thing that bothers me is the weird cut out of the rear doors. In 4 door Wrangler this is where the wheel arch would be, but on the truck the wheels are further back. They really should have made new doors for this, since this looks like a back alley shop cobbled it together.
I noticed that too, but from a practical sense, that's the part of the interior where the seat is, so it's not really blocking anything, and while I know this is a stretch for a justification (I'm sure the real reason was to avoid having to retool a few machines on the production line), I suppose that there's a small chance that a rock on some 4x4 trail could prevent the door from opening if it were in *just* the right place and it was a full door.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 15, 2018, 02:02:04 PM
I noticed that too, but from a practical sense, that's the part of the interior where the seat is, so it's not really blocking anything ... (I'm sure the real reason was to avoid having to retool a few machines on the production line)...
:hesaid:
It got a 1 star rating in EuroNCAP.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/Jeep/Wrangler/34192
Did not expect it to do that bad. :mask:
Quote from: Galaxy on December 05, 2018, 04:13:02 PM
It got a 1 star rating in EuroNCAP.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/Jeep/Wrangler/34192
Did not expect it to do that bad. :mask:
Euro NCAP heavily weights driver assist/automation features (auto emergency braking, lane-keeping assist, etc). IIRC, the Mustang got a pretty poor rating on Euro NCAP, not because of how it actually held up in a collision, but because it didn't have various automated assist features.
Yeah, I went through the PDF of that report. And although it didn't do super well in general crash testing, it seemed like a lot of its negative rating was coming from a lack of bullshit like "active hood" or automatic crash-avoidance crap.
Quote from: MX793 on December 05, 2018, 04:52:12 PM
Euro NCAP heavily weights driver assist/automation features (auto emergency braking, lane-keeping assist, etc). IIRC, the Mustang got a pretty poor rating on Euro NCAP, not because of how it actually held up in a collision, but because it didn't have various automated assist features.
The Wrangler would have gotten a two star rating with all of the tech features.
The main problem with the Mustang was that the dummies slid underneath the seat belts.
I have literally never looked at a crash test rating when I was looking into cars to purchase. I doubt Jeep is gonna lose many customers over that - maybe a few parents who are buying vehicles for their kids.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 05, 2018, 05:20:32 PM
I have literally never looked at a crash test rating when I was looking into cars to purchase. I doubt Jeep is gonna lose many customers over that - maybe a few parents who are buying vehicles for their kids.
Yeah, it's really just a marketing tool towards the paranoid and parentals.
I'd be more worried about "death wobble"... But jeep buyers don't care about that so who cares about crash ratings or death wobble when your cruising around with the doors off and the top off
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2018, 06:01:40 PM
I'd be more worried about "death wobble"... But jeep buyers don't care about that so who cares about crash ratings or death wobble when your cruising around with the doors off and the top off
Is death wobble still a thing?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 05, 2018, 06:22:18 PM
Is death wobble still a thing?
On motorcycles and old Jeeps that people have done half assed axle flops on.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 05, 2018, 06:22:18 PM
Is death wobble still a thing?
NHTSA is investigating on the new JL after a bunch of complaints
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2018, 07:16:58 PM
NHTSA is investigating on the new JL after a bunch of complaints
lol really?
Also it seems like the world just forgot about that whole faulty frame weld thing. I guess the problem wasn't as bad as originally reported?
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2018, 07:16:58 PM
NHTSA is investigating on the new JL after a bunch of complaints
I wonder of it has something to do with lift kits ... and stupid yoooge wheels/tires
Lift kits, yooge wheels, Mad Max body & window cladding, and at least three million-lumen LED light bars are the thing around here on Wranglers. And black/dark grey camo paint obviously. Menacing is the look to go for.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 05, 2018, 07:47:39 PM
lol really?
Also it seems like the world just forgot about that whole faulty frame weld thing. I guess the problem wasn't as bad as originally reported?
The quality expectations of Wrangler owners is a fairly low
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 05, 2018, 07:49:29 PM
I wonder of it has something to do with lift kits ... and stupid yoooge wheels/tires
Some complaints seem to be stock wranglers.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2018, 06:15:14 AM
The quality expectations of Wrangler owners is a fairly low
It's funny how much Alfa looks like Wrangler when you spell it that way.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 06, 2018, 07:14:19 AM
It's funny how much Alfa looks like Wrangler when you spell it that way.
The key difference is after a 5 minute road test, any potential buyer knows a wrangler is a complete utter POS on the pavement... and will still buy it just because of image.
An alfa buyer will be so in love after a 5 minute road test that they no longer care.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2018, 07:38:40 AM
The key difference is after a 5 minute road test, any potential buyer knows a wrangler is a complete utter POS on the pavement... and will still buy it just because of image.
An alfa buyer will be so in love after a 5 minute road test that they no longer care.
Probably :lol:
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2018, 07:16:58 PM
NHTSA is investigating on the new JL after a bunch of complaints
If by "a bunch," you mean...11.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/19/jeep-wrangler-death-wobble-nhtsa/
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 06, 2018, 09:41:34 AM
If by "a bunch," you mean...11.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/19/jeep-wrangler-death-wobble-nhtsa/
That article is almost 2 weeks old. It could easily be up to 12 by now.
It would be interesting to see how many of the complaints are for 2 door Wranglers compared to 4 door. Either would be just as likely to experience the condition but it would tend to be more destabilizing on a shorter wheelbase vehicle.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 05, 2018, 07:47:39 PM
Also it seems like the world just forgot about that whole faulty frame weld thing.
The world got their Wrangler frames from China, they did all of the welding correctly. The US Wrangler frames are from Detroit they had their difficulties. :devil:
Quote from: Galaxy on December 05, 2018, 04:13:02 PM
It got a 1 star rating in EuroNCAP.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/Jeep/Wrangler/34192
Did not expect it to do that bad. :mask:
Interesting reddit post about it: "NCAP tests of Jimny vs. Wrangler: same issues, very different scores." (https://old.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/a3q8l6/ncap_tests_of_jimny_vs_wrangler_same_issues_very/)
The gist: actual test results weren't all that bad for the Wrangler, but...
QuoteAlthough dummy readings indicated good protection of the knees and femurs of the driver and passenger dummy, structures in the dashboard were thought to present a risk to occupants of different sizes and to those sitting in different positions, and protection of this body area was rated as marginal.
So... even though the actual test result was decent EuroNCAP assumed that the dashboard design posed a "risk" and they downgraded the results. They also just didn't perform a crash test into a pole at all, and gave the Wrangler zero for that, skewing the results even further downward.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 05, 2018, 05:20:32 PM
I have literally never looked at a crash test rating when I was looking into cars to purchase.
Nor I. As I have said before, scores on a crash test will tell you how well the car performs within the narrow parameters of that particular test. In generally it's likely to correlate with actual real-life "safety", but not necessarily so. The difference between "1-star", "4-star" is a matter of millimetres.
Quote from: 93JC on December 06, 2018, 02:35:48 PM
The difference between "1-star", "4-star" is a matter of millimetres.
and headrest adjusting shenanigans.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2018, 07:38:40 AM
The key difference is after a 5 minute road test, any potential buyer knows a wrangler is a complete utter POS on the pavement... and will still buy it just because of image.
An alfa buyer will be so in love after a 5 minute road test that they no longer care.
We get it. Anything that goes offroad deeply offends you because it isn't a sports car. lol
These things were all over the place when I was in Hawaii. I came very close to renting one when I realized I've still never driven one. I mean, I can only say they're bad on-road because I've been told they're bad on-road.
Quote from: Raza on December 11, 2018, 02:42:42 AM
These things were all over the place when I was in Hawaii. I came very close to renting one when I realized I've still never driven one. I mean, I can only say they're bad on-road because I've been told they're bad on-road.
It's bad if you have the wrong expectations. Like if I were to take an Aston off road and be like "omg it's bad off road." Well, no shit. A Wrangler is a solid-axle, purpose-built off road machine. Why people act surprised when it doesn't drive like a Ford Escape is beyond me.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 11, 2018, 09:40:00 AM
It's bad if you have the wrong expectations. Like if I were to take an Aston off road and be like "omg it's bad off road." Well, no shit. A Wrangler is a solid-axle, purpose-built off road machine. Why people act surprised when it doesn't drive like a Ford Escape is beyond me.
They're great for Utah roads. Damn construction workers can't build a parking lot entrance to save their life. They always have 2" curbs and steep inclines. Perfect for a Jeep, hell for compact cars with low profile tires.
There's a reason why you hear that they're bad on-road. They're slow, loud, the interior is made of interlocked Rubbermaid totes, and they get 16mpg for no apparent reason.
The throttle does that truck thing where 50% of its travel yields louder fuel guzzling sounds but no actual acceleration.
What did you think of Hawaii?
Quote from: Laconian on December 11, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
There's a reason why you hear that they're bad on-road. They're slow, loud, the interior is made of interlocked Rubbermaid totes, and they get 16mpg for no apparent reason.
The throttle does that truck thing where 50% of its travel yields louder fuel guzzling sounds but no actual acceleration.
What did you think of Hawaii?
You forgot they all pretty much leak too
No. Not even my soft top YJ leaked when it was properly zipped up. That was 3 generations ago.
Quote from: r0tor on December 11, 2018, 03:46:45 PM
You forgot they all pretty much leak too
I've washed/detailed many Wranglers and not one roof leaked. Hard top, soft top, doesn't matter. And I spray water everywhere and in every direction.
My step dad has had two (normal TJ, Unlimited TJ) and I don't recall either having any issues with leaking.
Heh... I had 2 workers with new JKs and they both leaked and one was lemon lawed for it
Quote from: r0tor on December 11, 2018, 06:10:04 PM
Heh... I had 2 workers with new JKs and they both leaked and one was lemon lawed for it
I have a friend whose wife's Renegade was essentially totaled because of a catastrophically leaky sunroof. Or at least I think it's a Renegade, I dunno, the mini Jeeps confuse me.
It happens. It's not strictly a Wrangler problem. Your strange fear of anything off-road worthy continues.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 11, 2018, 06:13:13 PM
I have a friend whose wife's Renegade was essentially totaled because of a catastrophically leaky sunroof. Or at least I think it's a Renegade, I dunno, the mini Jeeps confuse me.
It happens. It's not strictly a Wrangler problem. Your strange fear of anything off-road worthy continues.
Drain tubes broke off from the front drip tray.
That was my fault.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 11, 2018, 06:38:27 PM
Drain tubes broke off from the front drip tray.
That was my fault.
You bastard!
And now my friend vows to never have an FCA product again. He drives a Tundra. Like a smart person. :devil:
Quote from: Laconian on December 11, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
There's a reason why you hear that they're bad on-road. They're slow, loud, the interior is made of interlocked Rubbermaid totes, and they get 16mpg for no apparent reason.
The throttle does that truck thing where 50% of its travel yields louder fuel guzzling sounds but no actual acceleration.
What did you think of Hawaii?
Hawaii was beautiful, felt hotter than it should have been for the temperature and humidity, and a really weird place for someone to vacation who doesn't like the beach or the heat. Still, I really enjoyed Maui. I'm looking forward to my return trip, where there will be less focus on doing touristy things and more focus on actually relaxing. I preferred my week in Napa because the weather was more my speed (40-70F), even though the sky was full of smoke from the wildfire, and drinking wine all day is much more relaxing than walking around in a sweat box all day.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 11, 2018, 06:13:13 PM
Your strange fear of anything off-road worthy continues.
What's up with that?
There are plenty of off road worthy SUVs on sale that don't completely suck while being driven on road - which is what 95+% of Wranglers are.
A 95th percentile Wrangler buyer pays an awful premium in price, quality, and performance for image.
Quote from: r0tor on December 11, 2018, 07:57:33 PM
What's up with that?
There are plenty of off road worthy SUVs on sale that don't completely suck while being driven on road - which is what 95+% of Wranglers are.
A 95th percentile Wrangler buyer pays an awful premium in price, quality, and performance for image.
A Wrangler is a dirtbike. A Grand Cherokee or 4Runner is a dual-sport.
One is designed for 50/50 on-/off-road use and the other is designed for 90/10 (edit: or 10/90 based on how I said on/off just then lol)
You do understand that there are places where it is fun and makes sense to have a Wrangler, right?
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 11, 2018, 06:44:20 PM
You bastard!
And now my friend vows to never have an FCA product again. He drives a Tundra. Like a smart person. :devil:
We were never good enough to make sunroofs for Toyota.
And some people like truckiness, being up high, and open air experience, even if they don't take it off road.
It's really not that much different that liking a stiff, sporty ride, feeling like you're gonna scrape your butt on the ground, and open air experience. Just personal preference.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 11, 2018, 08:53:31 PM
You do understand that there are places where it is fun and makes sense to have a Wrangler, right?
Absolutely. I rent one every once in a while to cruise around sand dunes on vacation... and it's great until you hit pavement.
It simply though doesn't apply to 90% of owners. Most take something that is terrible on road, put a lift and tires on that make it even worse on road, and never take it offroad (let's be serious - these things cost $40k+ now and aren't exactly expendable ). The owners simply are looking for the image and have ridiculously low expectations for daily driving.
Quote from: r0tor on December 12, 2018, 08:36:07 AM
Absolutely. I rent one every once in a while to cruise around sand dunes on vacation... and it's great until you hit pavement.
It simply though doesn't apply to 90% of owners. Most take something that is terrible on road, put a lift and tires on that make it even worse on road, and never take it offroad (let's be serious - these things cost $40k+ now and aren't exactly expendable ). The owners simply are looking for the image and have ridiculously low expectations for daily driving.
Men wear pants they have to hold up by hand to keep them from falling off. Women wear 6" stilettos that are miserable to walk in. People buy $250,000 sports cars that they only take on leisurely Sunday drives. If it makes them happy, who am I to complain. Except of course the baggy pants. Those are just stupid.
Quote from: RomanChariot on December 12, 2018, 10:42:19 AM
Men wear pants they have to hold up by hand to keep them from falling off. Women wear 6" stilettos that are miserable to walk in. People buy $250,000 sports cars that they only take on leisurely Sunday drives. If it makes them happy, who am I to complain. Except of course the baggy pants. Those are just stupid.
So what's so bad about saying
QuoteThe owners simply are looking for the image and have ridiculously low expectations for daily driving.
Quote from: r0tor on December 12, 2018, 10:55:12 AM
So what's so bad about saying
Nothing in particular except you have a penchant for bashing the Wrangler in every thread that mentions it.
He does own a Grand Cherokee.
Quote from: r0tor on December 12, 2018, 10:55:12 AM
So what's so bad about saying
1. It has a negative connotation, like you're insulting the owners. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off.
2. It's not adding anything useful to the conversation. We all know that Wranglers suck on-road. Who cares if other people choose to drive them anyway?
Quote from: RomanChariot on December 12, 2018, 10:42:19 AM
Men wear pants they have to hold up by hand to keep them from falling off. Women wear 6" stilettos that are miserable to walk in. People buy $250,000 sports cars that they only take on leisurely Sunday drives. If it makes them happy, who am I to complain. Except of course the baggy pants. Those are just stupid.
Fuck pants. I wear coveralls, also known as a onesie.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 12, 2018, 12:43:58 PM
1. It has a negative connotation, like you're insulting the owners. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off.
2. It's not adding anything useful to the conversation. We all know that Wranglers suck on-road. Who cares if other people choose to drive them anyway?
It was relevant in response to the safety testing - nobody is going to care about safety ratings in a vehicle they ride around top less and doorless that accelerates, brakes, and overall handles like crap. There is no overall high expectation from these things like a Volvo buyer might have.
Jesus Christ, they're not that bad to drive on pavement. They're actually better in the city than many cars. Up high view, excellent visibility all round, short wheelbase makes it easy to navigate traffic, potholes and bad pavement doesn't phase it, etc. At legal highway speeds, it can be perfectly comfortable.
Umm there is a pretty substantial difference in stopping distances between a Wrangler and Grand Cherokee... at highway speeds there is an absolute enormous difference in ride/handling
Quote from: r0tor on December 13, 2018, 07:45:13 AM
Umm there is a pretty substantial difference in stopping distances between a Wrangler and Grand Cherokee... at highway speeds there is an absolute enormous difference in ride/handling
Nobody cares. So it's not the vehicle for you. Don't buy one. It's so simple. Your ego over what other people drive is stupendous.
Quote from: Rockraven on December 13, 2018, 05:17:40 AM
Jesus Christ, they're not that bad to drive on pavement. They're actually better in the city than many cars. Up high view, excellent visibility all round, short wheelbase makes it easy to navigate traffic, potholes and bad pavement doesn't phase it, etc. At legal highway speeds, it can be perfectly comfortable.
Except for the random tippiness and swerviness and complete disconnect from the road....
Finally got my hands on one today. Really fresh, like 8k miles. Felt like a Wrangler for the 2 blocks I drove it. Super base model...crank windows and no power locks. She handed me the key fob and it was a totally buttonless switchblade fob. Confused me...I was like "do the doors lock on their own or something?" Nope. Manual locks.
Ha, I guess that's a Wrangler for ya.
The TJ Unlimited (the 2-door version with the extened trunk/bed area) is the most recent one I've driven, and even that was for short distances so I wasn't paying attention to how bad the NVH and handling really was. I seriously doubt that I'll get one, but I should at least go check out a new one whenever I start seriously shopping for a new car. If nothing else, the interiors are way nicer than they used to be.
Yeah, what with removable doors and stuff, they decided to just forego any and all door electronics on base models. Not terribly surprised, but it is 2019... :lol:
#Purists
We've been pretty happy with our JL. It crushes everything we can throw at it and has held up great. On-road manners are fine, a little darty but that's mostly the oversquare wheelbase. Fuel economy consistently hovers around ~21 mpg (which isn't bad for a two-ton brick w/ wheels). NVH is night and day compared the even the JK.
Only drawback is how goofy the roof rack looks w those pop off front roof panels.