EVs

Started by Morris Minor, November 08, 2018, 04:03:12 AM

Morris Minor

EVs
EV charging section at  ATL's international terminal parking deck.
When we left for Europe on Saturday afternoon it was empty.
When we returned on a Thursday afternoon 12 days later, it was full. At the briefest of glances I think most EV models available in the US were represented.


⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

12,000 RPM

I have mixed feelings

They have promise and are legitimately greener than the average lump



Basically never having to go to the gas station again is very appealing to me too. We have the MKX for long trips

There aren't any affordable ones that are compelling though (aside from the Kona and Bolt if you like battle clad dodgeballs). And hybrids are getting to where the economics are borderline as well. An Insight prob costs $20-30/mo more to fill than an EV does to charge in most of the country.

Still though, if someone could make one that looks decent, gets out of its own way and doesn't cost $70K.................................
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Morris Minor

Having breathed the shitty air in Lower Saxony for a week, I'm finding the case for EVs compelling, just on a quality of life basis.
Especially if the underlying energy source is renewable. Burning brown coal to power virtue-signaling EVs is a bit ironic.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

giant_mtb

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2018, 05:24:09 AM
I have mixed feelings

They have promise and are legitimately greener than the average lump



What the hell is this map showing.

SJ_GTI

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 06:16:23 AM
What the hell is this map showing.

:lol:

That is exactly my reaction. I can't tell what I am supposed to take away from that.

giant_mtb

Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 08, 2018, 06:45:46 AM
:lol:

That is exactly my reaction. I can't tell what I am supposed to take away from that.

My guess, after staring at it for a while, is that it shows the average MPG rating of vehicles sold in that area?  And the letters are some made-up acronyms to describe the defined area?

Not surprised I live in the lowest-rated area.  Trucks trucks trucks and basically zero EV infrastructure. 

12,000 RPM

It's the equivalent fossil fuel burn per mile for EVs in a certain area. So nationwide EVs burn the same amount of fossil fuels as as an 80MPG gas car.

I think the west coast skews it heavily, but it's still interesting. I used to do energy analysis and with my old numbers it was much lower- like 30 MPG.

This is also a good explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

Again as a bit of a green weenie this is all very cool to me, but as someone who likes driving there's nothing compelling yet.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

RomanChariot

The article that the map is from is found at https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/03/14/charging-an-electric-vehicle-is-far-cleaner-than-driving-on-gasoline-everywhere-in-america/#683fd82971f8.

The article states that " an average EV on the road in the U.S. has the same greenhouse-gas emissions as a car getting 80 miles per gallon." This is largely based on the source of electricity that the car uses. Areas that show higher numbers on the map get their electricity from sources that generate less pollution. The areas on the map with low numbers probably get a lot more of their electricity from coal.

giant_mtb

Ah, well that makes sense.  Most of our power here does come from coal.  Although our coal power plant is shutting down, I believe in the spring, as a new NG power plant is under construction, with another already completed.

Morris Minor

Also a plus for EVs  - far fewer moving parts.
The range anxiety thing is a bother though, as evidenced by all those cars plugged in at the airport parking deck. Also it bothers me that a car could still be occupying a charging bay in a long-term parking deck long after it had reached full charge.  Nine hours of charging, 20 days in the bay while the owners tour Australia.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

12,000 RPM

Range anxiety is a strawman. Most Americans drive 12K miles a year or ~30 miles a day, and households that can afford new or newish cars usually have more than one car in the fleet. So like for us, I'd drive the EV on my ~80 mile round trip commute, and when we travel load up the family and luggage into the ICE hauler.

As I said though the wrinkle is the economics. EVs cost less to run but they are priced higher... though with govt and manufacturer incentives it varies. Teslas actually hold their value no different than something like a BMW.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

EVs are a lot better about converting joules into motion. The Bolt gets 110MPGe, which means it gets 110 miles for the emount of chemical energy in a gallon of gas. Even if the power is sourced from coal, that is still amazing.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

RomanChariot

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
Range anxiety is a strawman. Most Americans drive 12K miles a year or ~30 miles a day, and households that can afford new or newish cars usually have more than one car in the fleet. So like for us, I'd drive the EV on my ~80 mile round trip commute, and when we travel load up the family and luggage into the ICE hauler.

As I said though the wrinkle is the economics. EVs cost less to run but they are priced higher... though with govt and manufacturer incentives it varies. Teslas actually hold their value no different than something like a BMW.

Range anxiety is not as big of a concern now as it used to be but it is hardly a strawman. My commute is about 90 miles per day. There is a pretty small selection of EVs that can cover that distance without recharging, especially during the cold winter months when EV range suffers. I have a coworker that has a 2nd generation Volt and commutes 60 miles per day. In the summer he can make it to work and back without recharging. In the winter he has to park at a Costco over a mile from work to recharge so he can get back home.

Laconian

A Volt? He can just fill it up at a gas station too...
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

BimmerM3

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 08, 2018, 09:47:34 AM
Also a plus for EVs  - far fewer moving parts.
The range anxiety thing is a bother though, as evidenced by all those cars plugged in at the airport parking deck. Also it bothers me that a car could still be occupying a charging bay in a long-term parking deck long after it had reached full charge.  Nine hours of charging, 20 days in the bay while the owners tour Australia.

Considering they were empty on Saturday and full on a Thursday afternoon, I'd say that those all belong to business travellers. And if the airport put them in long-term parking, I'm sure they expected that they would be under utilized for that reason.

Quote from: RomanChariot on November 08, 2018, 11:02:57 AM
I have a coworker that has a 2nd generation Volt and commutes 60 miles per day. In the summer he can make it to work and back without recharging. In the winter he has to park at a Costco over a mile from work to recharge so he can get back home.

:confused:

What's the point of buying a Volt if you don't use the ICE to extend the range?


I'd take a very serious look at the upcoming Crosstrek plug-in hybrid if they were going to sell it in CO. Once they release more details, I might take a serious look at going to another state to buy one.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: RomanChariot on November 08, 2018, 11:02:57 AM
Range anxiety is not as big of a concern now as it used to be but it is hardly a strawman. My commute is about 90 miles per day. There is a pretty small selection of EVs that can cover that distance without recharging, especially during the cold winter months when EV range suffers. I have a coworker that has a 2nd generation Volt and commutes 60 miles per day. In the summer he can make it to work and back without recharging. In the winter he has to park at a Costco over a mile from work to recharge so he can get back home.
Most EVs are compliance garbage like the Focus EV and the Soul EV. They either won't be around much longer or will be more serious soon. Real ground up EVs like the Bolt, Teslas, Ioniq Electric etc have more useful range. And even with that there are people who need more... which is cool. EVs can't work for them, and I don't think manufacturers should chase those outliers.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

RomanChariot

Quote from: Laconian on November 08, 2018, 11:12:59 AM
A Volt? He can just fill it up at a gas station too...

He has gone kind of full tilt not wanting to use gasoline unless he has to. He put solar panels on his home as well.

Morris Minor

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 08, 2018, 11:13:48 AM
Considering they were empty on Saturday and full on a Thursday afternoon, I'd say that those all belong to business travellers. And if the airport put them in long-term parking, I'm sure they expected that they would be under utilized for that reason.
:confused:
It's the park-ride long-term deck for the international terminal, so international business travellers FWIW.
(For context this is about 25 EV charge stations in a 2,600-space deck.)
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

I should take a picture of our parking lot at work. We have a lot of EV-only charging spots, but there are so many EVs that they bleed all over the parking lot. My work was a hotspot of 3-series and C-classes. No longer. Everybody drives Model 3s now.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

BimmerM3

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 08, 2018, 11:39:50 AM
It's the park-ride long-term deck for the international terminal, so international business travellers FWIW.
(For context this is about 25 EV charge stations in a 2,600-space deck.)

Oh right, I forgot Hartsfield built that whole other terminal for international.

shp4man

Problem with EV's is the nature of modern batteries. They can only do so many charge cycles before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. The batteries are hella expensive, so you wont be seeing too many high mileage electric cars.

93JC

Quote from: shp4man on November 08, 2018, 12:12:34 PM
Problem with EV's is the nature of modern batteries. They can only do so many charge cycles before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. The batteries are hella expensive, so you wont be seeing too many high mileage electric cars.

You could say the same about internal combustion engines. "They can only do so many hours running, and miles driven, before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. Engine rebuilds are hella expensive," etc.

Laconian

Containing hundreds of explosions per second and letting the pressure move big heavy pistons around, then putting that through meshed gears with crazy complicated electronics and finely tuned solenoids, and dirty oil sloshing around it all to keep things from exploding...

Yup, ICEs are madness, they'll never work :lol:
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Galaxy

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 08, 2018, 05:49:08 AM
Burning brown coal to power virtue-signaling EVs is a bit ironic.

Yeah, that is something that needs to be worked on.

Quote from: shp4man on November 08, 2018, 12:12:34 PM
Problem with EV's is the nature of modern batteries. They can only do so many charge cycles before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. The batteries are hella expensive, so you wont be seeing too many high mileage electric cars.

Quote from: 93JC on November 08, 2018, 12:41:26 PM
You could say the same about internal combustion engines. "They can only do so many hours running, and miles driven, before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. Engine rebuilds are hella expensive," etc.

^ That, plus the battery degradation on the Teslas is better then anticipated. The Tesla community is quite good at documenting their battery degradation. The averages are pointing toward over 90% of range remaining at over 150,000 miles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDPIDialGnuKPsg/edit#gid=154312675



giant_mtb

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
Range anxiety is a strawman.

I still disagree 94%.  Charge times and infrastructure (ie, availability of fast-charge stations) still pose to make long trips much longer.

BimmerM3

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
I still disagree 94%.  Charge times and infrastructure (ie, availability of fast-charge stations) still pose to make long trips much longer.

Definitely depends on the situation, but for single people, I mostly agree. I could see myself getting a plug-in hybrid, but a 100% EV would be difficult.

Morris Minor

Quote from: Laconian on November 08, 2018, 01:15:10 PM
Containing hundreds of explosions per second and letting the pressure move big heavy pistons around, then putting that through meshed gears with crazy complicated electronics and finely tuned solenoids, and dirty oil sloshing around it all to keep things from exploding...

Yup, ICEs are madness, they'll never work :lol:
Reminiscent of one of the arguments for jet engines in airplanes over piston engines: one moving part vs hundreds.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

12,000 RPM

Quote from: shp4man on November 08, 2018, 12:12:34 PM
Problem with EV's is the nature of modern batteries. They can only do so many charge cycles before they stop working, with an efficiency decrease in the last part of life. The batteries are hella expensive, so you wont be seeing too many high mileage electric cars.
IDK man batteries are pretty robust

Here's the % range vs miles driven... 250,000 km = 156K miles. 92% charge there is pretty damn good, most gasoline cars are a crap shoot at that mileage



Plus once the batteries are no good for cars they can use them in other things like home power banks. The batteries still work, they just can't deploy the amps cars demand.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

12,000 RPM

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
I still disagree 94%.  Charge times and infrastructure (ie, availability of fast-charge stations) still pose to make long trips much longer.
Most people's trips are short, so that's no big deal. EVs don't have to be 1 car solutions or long distance worthy to be useful.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs