EVs

[MX793]

You think Toyota is behind the curve? 

What BEV models does Toyota have on the market right now?  Nothing.  Meanwhile, Ford, GM, VWAG, and even Nissan have one or more entries, some rather good.  Yes, Toyota is behind on BEV.

Toyota saying that EV is overhyped is like Chrysler/Fiat proclaiming that reliability is overhyped.

[MrH]

What BEV models does Toyota have on the market right now?  Nothing.  Meanwhile, Ford, GM, VWAG, and even Nissan have one or more entries, some rather good.  Yes, Toyota is behind on BEV.

Toyota saying that EV is overhyped is like Chrysler/Fiat proclaiming that reliability is overhyped.

Why are you looking at whether they are selling one commercially as the measuring stick of whether they're behind or not?  They're ahead in battery tech, which is ultimately the most important thing.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-s-game-changing-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

They are choosing not to sell an EV at a loss right now.  The goal of it all is to make money.

Toyota literally created the way cars are manufactured.  Everyone is playing catch up.  I think they deserve a bit more credit than Chrysler talking about quality.

[MX793]

Why are you looking at whether they are selling one commercially as the measuring stick of whether they're behind or not?  They're ahead in battery tech, which is ultimately the most important thing.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-s-game-changing-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

They are choosing not to sell an EV at a loss right now.  The goal of it all is to make money.

Toyota literally created the way cars are manufactured.  Everyone is playing catch up.  I think they deserve a bit more credit than Chrysler talking about quality.

An EV isn't just the battery.  That said, Toyota does have all of the pieces for an EV in their possession when they do build one, as much of their PHEV expertise can transfer over.

[r0tor]

Why are you looking at whether they are selling one commercially as the measuring stick of whether they're behind or not?  They're ahead in battery tech, which is ultimately the most important thing.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-s-game-changing-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

They are choosing not to sell an EV at a loss right now.  The goal of it all is to make money.

Toyota literally created the way cars are manufactured.  Everyone is playing catch up.  I think they deserve a bit more credit than Chrysler talking about quality.

Unless it's on the dealer lots, it's a bunch of vaporware

[MrH]

An EV isn't just the battery.  That said, Toyota does have all of the pieces for an EV in their possession when they do build one, as much of their PHEV expertise can transfer over.

Exactly.  They know how to build a car, electric motors, etc.  Solid state batteries is really the holy grail that everyone is chasing to some degree.  Having a leg up there is infinitely more important for future success in EVs than anything else.

[MrH]

Unless it's on the dealer lots, it's a bunch of vaporware

Of all people to talk about vaporware...you, r0tor, Elon's jockstrap, should be the absolute last person talking about this.  But then again, I guess that hasn't stopped you before.

[Laconian]

An impressive summary of all the tradeoffs to consider when going solar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHSL_6sG5ZE

Maybe we should start a separate subforum for EV-related subjects, and recycle one of the dead subforums?

[r0tor]

Of all people to talk about vaporware...you, r0tor, Elon's jockstrap, should be the absolute last person talking about this.  But then again, I guess that hasn't stopped you before.

Funny you mention Elon's jockstrap... Probably pairs nicely with your burnt shorts

[CaminoRacer]

Of all people to talk about vaporware...you, r0tor, Elon's jockstrap, should be the absolute last person talking about this.  But then again, I guess that hasn't stopped you before.

Tesla has sold the most EVs and are #1 in the game. Toyota hasn't even entered the game yet.

[cawimmer430]

I find it funny that companies that are behind the curve for a given technology all make statements about how it's "overhyped".  You won't see Toyota claim hybrids, which are a compromised half step to EVs, are overhyped because Toyota has long been a leader there.

Unless there is a dramatic breakthrough in battery technology, I just can't see EVs as working for the masses, especially the folks living in cities who park their cars on the street due to the lack of a garage.

You know me, I still believe in synthetic fuels. But let's not get started on that again. 

[cawimmer430]

Apparently one of my neighbors works for BMW and brought home a prototype test vehicle of the new BMW iX Electric SUV. Looks as hideous in person as it does in real life. God, this thing is so hideous.

[MX793]

Unless there is a dramatic breakthrough in battery technology, I just can't see EVs as working for the masses, especially the folks living in cities who park their cars on the street due to the lack of a garage.

You know me, I still believe in synthetic fuels. But let's not get started on that again. 

I think the big shortcoming right now is actually a lack of charging infrastructure and rapid charging.  If rapid charging stations were as common as petrol stations, owners wouldn't need to rely on charging from home and therefore apartment dwellers who park on the street wouldn't need to be concerned about lacking an option to charge at home.  After all, practically no one has a gas pump at their home that would allow them to refuel their car at home, so the only way to "charge" your ICE car is to travel to a fuel station and top up the tank.  The vast majority of people live within 5 miles of a gas station.  Not necessarily so for a charging station.  As it stands, the latest EVs have enough range for most urban or suburban commuters to handle their day-to-day.  For road-tripping, the combination of lack of infrastructure and longer recharge times (compared to refilling a tank) puts EVs at something of a disadvantage.

Another perk to electric is that you can put a charging station almost anywhere (including your home garage if you have one).  They don't take up nearly as much space as a petrol station (which has large tanks) and don't have the same required environmental precautions as installing a petrol station (electricity isn't going to leak into and poison groundwater).  My employer installed several chargers in the parking lot at work, and the same could be done in many parking areas all over.  That's something you can't do with fuel stations.  And unlike a fuel pump, which feeds from a large tank that needs to be replenished every week or month by a tanker truck, chargers are tied into the grid and have a continuous supply of energy.

[FoMoJo]

^^Many good points.  BEVs can fulfill the needs of the majority of driving.

[AutobahnSHO]

Toyota didn't invent the car- many companies which are now bankrupt and many others which got bought out by others did. Those were the pioneers.

Toyota and Honda etc... came into an already developed market/ society and have made great strides. Tesla & Leaf are pioneers in the EV field- stands to be seen which ones continue on like Ford and GM have. Toyota has chosen to wait until things are more developed (more chargers, more acceptance) before jumping in.

It bothers me that the government subsidizes things for companies. If they were truly profitable/ desirable/ efficient, the public would buy them anyway.

I'm a cheapskate, most I've ever spent on a vehicle is $12,500 for most recent minivan. But I strongly would consider a Bolt, because I have the minivan for trips and Bolt would make perfect sense for my commuting. (I'd prefer Miata but not on bad weather days.) But until Impreza needs replacement, I won't worry about it.

Many many Americans have only one car- in which case EVs don't make sense for the freedom of "being able to" take a trip out of battery range. Many others don't have a way to charge at home or work. Many don't buy new cars. Plenty of cases for EVs to not proliferate.

It took how many decades for gasoline cars to become super common place??...   And now it's not the difference of horse vs car (VHS vs DVD) it's car vs 'little better car' (DVD vs Blu-ray).  The DVD was one of the fastest selling technologies ever, it was far superior compared to tapes. But Blu-ray adoption wasn't anywhere near as dominant. Sure it's better but not super strikingly so. OH and Blu-ray is almost becoming irrelevant!! The new battery technology may absolutely blow away the current EV pioneers.

[CaminoRacer]

Toyota didn't invent the car- many companies which are now bankrupt and many others which got bought out by others did. Those were the pioneers.

Toyota and Honda etc... came into an already developed market/ society and have made great strides. Tesla & Leaf are pioneers in the EV field- stands to be seen which ones continue on like Ford and GM have. Toyota has chosen to wait until things are more developed (more chargers, more acceptance) before jumping in.

It bothers me that the government subsidizes things for companies. If they were truly profitable/ desirable/ efficient, the public would buy them anyway.

I'm a cheapskate, most I've ever spent on a vehicle is $12,500 for most recent minivan. But I strongly would consider a Bolt, because I have the minivan for trips and Bolt would make perfect sense for my commuting. (I'd prefer Miata but not on bad weather days.) But until Impreza needs replacement, I won't worry about it.

Many many Americans have only one car- in which case EVs don't make sense for the freedom of "being able to" take a trip out of battery range. Many others don't have a way to charge at home or work. Many don't buy new cars. Plenty of cases for EVs to not proliferate.

It took how many decades for gasoline cars to become super common place??...   And now it's not the difference of horse vs car (VHS vs DVD) it's car vs 'little better car' (DVD vs Blu-ray).  The DVD was one of the fastest selling technologies ever, it was far superior compared to tapes. But Blu-ray adoption wasn't anywhere near as dominant. Sure it's better but not super strikingly so. OH and Blu-ray is almost becoming irrelevant!! The new battery technology may absolutely blow away the current EV pioneers.

Have you driven a Bolt? It's amazing for commuting and driving around town. So effortless, quick, and playful handling.

[MrH]

Toyota didn't invent the car- many companies which are now bankrupt and many others which got bought out by others did. Those were the pioneers.

You're right.  Toyota didn't invent the car.

They did invent modern manufacturing as we know it.  Which I would argue is way bigger than inventing the car.

[AutobahnSHO]

You're right.  Toyota didn't invent the car.

They did invent modern manufacturing as we know it.  Which I would argue is way bigger than inventing the car.

Well they certainly improved on processes. They certainly invented new processes.

[AutobahnSHO]

Have you driven a Bolt? It's amazing for commuting and driving around town. So effortless, quick, and playful handling.

No but from your description and reviews, it's just about what I would need. AWD would be better, but every car is a compromise on some area.

[CaminoRacer]

No but from your description and reviews, it's just about what I would need. AWD would be better, but every car is a compromise on some area.

They're getting super cheap on the used market!

[AutobahnSHO]

They're getting super cheap on the used market!

yeah but then I wonder about the battery longevity. I've seen that Carmax has them for $12k so getting into my range LOL. I'm sure they're cheaper private, but again, we don't need a new car for awhile!

-Impreza has like 100k miles on it but we replaced motor at 70kish. (Idiot GA dealership couldn't figure out overheating issues, we figured just to be safe we replaced it in 2016.)
-Just bought Odyssey this spring, under 80k miles.
-Miata needs tires, I should fix an oil leak still and I haven't fixed lower rocker rust yet but may go for that and full paint job?.....

[veeman]

The Tesla mobile truck service is pretty nice.  My brother in law had a dimmed headlight. Tesla cane to his house, changed out the light for free (under 4 year warranty) and that was it. 

GM and the other dealerships should start that model of service for their EVs.  I don't think they could afford to though.  It's half the appeal of Tesla (no dealership model). 

[CaminoRacer]

GM EVs don't need very much service

[MX793]

GM EVs don't need very much service

Teslas don't really need much in the way of service, either.  Just repairs for things that break.

[Morris Minor]

The Tesla mobile truck service is pretty nice.  My brother in law had a dimmed headlight. Tesla cane to his house, changed out the light for free (under 4 year warranty) and that was it. 

GM and the other dealerships should start that model of service for their EVs.  I don't think they could afford to though.  It's half the appeal of Tesla (no dealership model). 

You know those "We really want your feedback" requests?
For the CX-5 mine was more or less:
Lovely car but interminable, tedious, anachronistic buying experience .

[cawimmer430]

Once again: SMART MAN. 

Toyota President Calls Electric Cars 'Overhyped', Lashes Out At ICE Bans

Toyota president Akio Toyoda has lamented the growing hype around electric vehicles and expressed concerns about politicians pushing too hard to ban ICE vehicles.

While speaking at a news conference for the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, of which he is chairman, Toyoda claimed Japan would run out of electricity in the summer if all vehicles were electric. He added that the infrastructure needed to support a complete transition to EVs would cost the country the equivalent of $135 billion to $358 billion, according to The Wall Street Journal.

"When politicians are out there saying, 'Let's get rid of all cars using gasoline,' do they understand this?" he asked. Toyoda added that if the automaker's home country rushes forward with a ban of ICE vehicles, "the current business model of the car industry is going to collapse."

Toyoda's critique of electric vehicles didn't stop there as he claimed that because Japan gets most of its electricity from burning coal and natural gas, electric vehicles don't actually help the environment. "The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets," he claimed.

Despite pioneering hybrid and hydrogen fuel-cell technologies, Toyota has long been quite resistant to electric vehicles. In recent times, however, it has appeared to become more open to the idea of EVs and is developing a host of them to launch in the coming years. Indeed, it is also said to be leading the industry in the development of solid-state batteries and could unveil a prototype as early as next year.



Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/12/toyota-president-lashes-out-at-electric-vehicle-push-and-ice-bans/

[Galaxy]

I am not sure if moving electric cars to their own section is a good idea. Is not the whole point that they will become ubiquitous sooner rather then later?   

[AutobahnSHO]

I am not sure if moving electric cars to their own section is a good idea. Is not the whole point that they will become ubiquitous sooner rather then later?   

mebbe someday.

To me it's no different than big guys vs. fast lane vs. mainstream.

[Laconian]

There are a lot of ancillary EV-related topics that just get lumped into this mega-thread. So much R&D in this space.

[Morris Minor]

Great idea. Maybe move the Tesla thread in here too?

[cawimmer430]

FINALLY! Took long enough.     


World's First V8-Swapped Tesla Model S Is Gonna Hurt Some Feelings

Rich Benoit is the face of refurbished Teslas. The YouTuber, who goes by Rich Rebuilds, created a name for himself by reclaiming salvaged Teslas and making them drive as if they were brand new. But recently, Rich has been getting into projects that involve more than fixing up flooded cars and tracking down hard-to-find parts. He's building much more unique and custom creations, like a V8-swapped Model S.

Now, it certainly won't be easy to swap an internal combustion engine into a car that came with an EV drivetrain from the factory. Rich has already begun the project by sourcing a Camaro LS3 complete with a six-speed manual transmission, but the real work still lies ahead.



Rich is really a normal car guy—he loves them regardless of if they're powered by batteries, gasoline or diesel. To put this into perspective, he showcases his built C6 Corvette Z06, Audi RS7, and even a Duramax GMC Sierra pickup in some of his videos. It just so happens that he enjoys tinkering with EVs and recognizes that automakers are pushing for electricity to be the future of cars. In the past, Rich has built an electric Mini Cooper, battery-powered rat rod, and even his own EV version of the Dominos DXP pizza delivery car.

The problem with Teslas is that they've become mundane for Rich, at least from an enthusiast's perspective. And his relationship with Tesla has been fairly stressed in recent years—that goes for the company (which won't sell him, or you, parts to keep old cars on the road) and the community of owners, which he notes is primarily made up of people who simply aren't car enthusiasts, or have downplayed his efforts to improve his EVs.

So sometimes you just need to take on an unorthodox project. And that's exactly what Rich is doing here.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odq9E92DAJk

You may have already guessed this, but there's a ton of custom work that'll need to be done if Rich really wants an LS-powered Tesla. Most of it will involve tricky fabrication, which he's done before, but maybe nothing on this level.

For starters, he plans to use not one, but three donor cars to complete the project—and remember that Tesla's skateboard design means a flat floorboard, so a transmission tunnel will need to be built to house the six-speed manual and driveshaft to power the rear wheels. It doesn't stop there as Rich says he'll also need custom axles for the car since this is a swap that nobody has ever (successfully) completed.

Keep in mind that a base Tesla Model S 75 makes around 382 horsepower, so the 426-horsepower 6.2-liter V8 from the Camaro should be an upgrade in itself. Sure, it won't have instant torque like the Model S's original powertrain, but it will be near-infinitely customizable with aftermarket support, unlike the current tuning scene for Tesla's electric drivetrains, which the automaker doesn't want you messing with anyway. Plus, who would expect V8 rumble from a Tesla?

The project itself is obviously in its infancy, but if there's one thing that Rich has shown us in the past, it's that he has the determination to take on tasks that others see as unfathomable.

Link: https://www.thedrive.com/news/38368/worlds-first-v8-swapped-tesla-model-s-is-gonna-make-a-lot-of-people-mad