EVs

Started by Morris Minor, November 08, 2018, 04:03:12 AM

AutobahnSHO

I would get an EV for come and another car for trips.

Or a hybrid minivan. :lol:
Will

93JC

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
I still disagree 94%.  Charge times and infrastructure (ie, availability of fast-charge stations) still pose to make long trips much longer.

The overarching point (I think) is that the average driver isn't making "long trips". 85% or more of all the km I've put on my car have been in the city, with average trip length of probably around 8-12 km and average daily total of 20-25 km (12-16 miles). It's obviously not going to make sense to someone putting hundreds of miles on their car every day, but for the vast majority of drivers—especially in urban areas—ranges of 150 miles or more will be plenty more than they'll typically need.

Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2018, 03:37:57 PM
IDK man batteries are pretty robust

Here's the % range vs miles driven... 250,000 km = 156K miles. 92% charge there is pretty damn good, most gasoline cars are a crap shoot at that mileage



Plus once the batteries are no good for cars they can use them in other things like home power banks. The batteries still work, they just can't deploy the amps cars demand.

I bet cars suffer similar range reductions as the components degrade. A 250,000km car will certainly be much slower.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

giant_mtb

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 08, 2018, 02:15:44 PM
Definitely depends on the situation, but for single people, I mostly agree. I could see myself getting a plug-in hybrid, but a 100% EV would be difficult.

Well, as of 2016, 110.6 million people age 18+ were un-married.  Sooooo.

giant_mtb

#34
Quote from: 93JC on November 08, 2018, 04:18:26 PM
The overarching point (I think) is that the average driver isn't making "long trips". 85% or more of all the km I've put on my car have been in the city, with average trip length of probably around 8-12 km and average daily total of 20-25 km (12-16 miles). It's obviously not going to make sense to someone putting hundreds of miles on their car every day, but for the vast majority of drivers—especially in urban areas—ranges of 150 miles or more will be plenty more than they'll typically need.

Agreed.  100%.  I don't deny that at all.  But for people that can't afford to have two cars, it's ridiculous that range anxiety is a "strawman."  There's no replacement for being able to fill up in 10-15 minutes (including a bathroom break and snack-buying) and be back on the road.  I can get downstate to see my nephew in 6.5 hours.  Why would I want that journey extended to 9.5+ hours?  That's like going back in time... :huh:

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 04:52:24 PM
Agreed.  100%.  I don't deny that at all.  But for people that can't afford to have two cars, it's ridiculous that range anxiety is a "strawman."  There's no replacement for being able to fill up in 10-15 minutes (including a bathroom break and snack-buying) and be back on the road.  I can get downstate to see my nephew in 6.5 hours.  Why would I want that journey extended to 9.5+ hours?  That's like going back in time... :huh:

+1

If you only have one car, being tied to the power grid sucks.
Will

BimmerM3

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 04:52:24 PM
Agreed.  100%.  I don't deny that at all.  But for people that can't afford to have two cars, it's ridiculous that range anxiety is a "strawman."  There's no replacement for being able to fill up in 10-15 minutes (including a bathroom break and snack-buying) and be back on the road.  I can get downstate to see my nephew in 6.5 hours.  Why would I want that journey extended to 9.5+ hours?  That's like going back in time... :huh:

If you average 65 mph for 6.5 hrs, that's 423 miles. I guess it depends on the specific vehicle's range and where charging locations are, but for most routes in a longer range vehicle like a Tesla, that would only be one or two stops. It might add an hour, but not three.

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 04:48:11 PM
Well, as of 2016, 110.6 million people age 18+ were un-married.  Sooooo.

For practical purposes, unmarried does not necessarily mean single. And some people only roadtrip with friends who would have ICE cars, some people really only travel by plane, some people don't mind renting a car once or twice a year for a roadtrip, some people just don't really travel at all, some people don't mind waiting longer for charge ups (I know multiple Tesla owners who have done occasional roadtrips in their cars).

I mean, there are a whole lot of people in cities who don't have cars at all, so range anxiety is clearly not a deal breaker for everyone.

There are obviously still plenty of legitimate reasons not to get EV, especially as a single person, but I think the potential EV market is a lot bigger than you think it is, even with current ranges and charging technology.

shp4man

Electric cars are OK, just lease the damn thing. Trust me on this one.

12,000 RPM

I don't think EVs will ever be a 1 car solution and by extension won't replace ICE.

No car works for everybody. Ford doesn't have to fix the F-150 to work in Manhattan. Porsche doesn't have to make the GT3 OK for the snow belt. Etc. EVs are no different. There are millions of people who drive short distances and can charge at home every night. That's enough for EVs to succeed. I think once the prices come down and EVs become more normal and comparable to similarly priced ICEs the floodgates will open.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

They might be cheaper! EVs can be packaged more flexibly. You can have weird shit like the Renault Twizy. YES I KNOW THAT WOULDN'T SELL IN AMERICA BUT NOT EVERY HUMAN LIVES IN MILES OF CORNFIELDS JEEZ :rage:
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

giant_mtb

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 08, 2018, 05:46:15 PM
If you average 65 mph for 6.5 hrs, that's 423 miles. I guess it depends on the specific vehicle's range and where charging locations are, but for most routes in a longer range vehicle like a Tesla, that would only be one or two stops. It might add an hour, but not three.

For practical purposes, unmarried does not necessarily mean single. And some people only roadtrip with friends who would have ICE cars, some people really only travel by plane, some people don't mind renting a car once or twice a year for a roadtrip, some people just don't really travel at all, some people don't mind waiting longer for charge ups (I know multiple Tesla owners who have done occasional roadtrips in their cars).

I mean, there are a whole lot of people in cities who don't have cars at all, so range anxiety is clearly not a deal breaker for everyone.

There are obviously still plenty of legitimate reasons not to get EV, especially as a single person, but I think the potential EV market is a lot bigger than you think it is, even with current ranges and charging technology.

Charge time to 100% on a SuperCharger for a Model S is 75 minutes. Range (maximum) on the 85kWh battery is 208 miles. Do the math. :huh:

Laconian

Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 06:32:28 PM
Charge time to 100% on a SuperCharger for a Model S is 75 minutes. Range (maximum) on the 85kWh battery is 208 miles. Do the math. :huh:

Literally would not have changed my habits one bit. I tend to stick to a 25 mi radius. I go to Canada about once a year, where I stay overnight.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

BimmerM3

#42
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2018, 06:32:28 PM
Charge time to 100% on a SuperCharger for a Model S is 75 minutes. Range (maximum) on the 85kWh battery is 208 miles. Do the math. :huh:

That was the range for the 60kwh battery that they no longer sell. All current models have a range of at least 237 miles (Model X 75d) and most of them are closer to 300 miles. If the chargers are spaced out and you have to stop twice, you won't have to recharge all the way so it'll be much faster. Subtract out the 15 minutes for a gas stop you'd have to make in most ICE cars, and you're looking at < 1 - 1.5 hours extra.

That doesn't mean you should get one, but they're not as bad as you think they are.

veeman

To me the big thing holding back EVs is price and range. Need to have a viable option with > 200 mile range for 25 grand or less, new.  I think that's several years away. I went to fueleconomy.gov and compared a 4 cylinder non-hybrid Camry to a Chevy Bolt.  Annual fuel cost for the Camry is $1250.  For the Bolt it is $550 with their calculations based on electricity cost.  That difference is not enough to justify a Bolt over a Camry on monetary grounds given the much higher cost of the Bolt even with the govt tax credit. 

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on November 08, 2018, 06:36:07 PM
Literally would not have changed my habits one bit. I tend to stick to a 25 mi radius. I go to Canada about once a year, where I stay overnight.

There has always been a case for renting a trip car if the trip requires something different than what you have. I might do it this spring- the LC gets crap mileage and driving out to Colorado a rental might pay for itself.

I see no reason why that wouldn't be a viable option with an EV too.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

giant_mtb

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 08, 2018, 06:59:56 PM
That was the range for the 60kwh battery that they no longer sell. All current models have a range of at least 237 miles (Model X 75d) and most of them are closer to 300 miles. If the chargers are spaced out and you have to stop twice, you won't have to recharge all the way so it'll be much faster. Subtract out the 15 minutes for a gas stop you'd have to make in most ICE cars, and you're looking at < 1 - 1.5 hours extra.

That doesn't mean you should get one, but they're not as bad as you think they are.

I would love to see an EV Taco. I bet an EV Tacoma could cruise the woods like I do all day and then some.

But it would get shit mileage on the street. But I only live 1.5 miles from my shop.

.....but I can't afford two vehicles. As 100+ million people can't.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: veeman on November 08, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
To me the big thing holding back EVs is price and range. Need to have a viable option with > 200 mile range for 25 grand or less, new.  I think that's several years away. I went to fueleconomy.gov and compared a 4 cylinder non-hybrid Camry to a Chevy Bolt.  Annual fuel cost for the Camry is $1250.  For the Bolt it is $550 with their calculations based on electricity cost.  That difference is not enough to justify a Bolt over a Camry on monetary grounds given the much higher cost of the Bolt even with the govt tax credit.
Yea this is really it in a nutshell.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 08, 2018, 07:44:44 PM
There has always been a case for renting a trip car if the trip requires something different than what you have. I might do it this spring- the LC gets crap mileage and driving out to Colorado a rental might pay for itself.

I see no reason why that wouldn't be a viable option with an EV too.
As a frequent renter I must say it's a PITA. Financially it might not make sense but there's value in time and hassle.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

BimmerM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2018, 08:11:56 PM
As a frequent renter I must say it's a PITA. Financially it might not make sense but there's value in time and hassle.

I've basically had zero issues with any company that's not Thifty/Dollar. :huh:

Laconian

Yeah, National is about five minutes to take my car, five minutes to return it. Dat Emerald Aisle
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Morris Minor

Quote from: veeman on November 08, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
To me the big thing holding back EVs is price and range. Need to have a viable option with > 200 mile range for 25 grand or less, new.  I think that's several years away. I went to fueleconomy.gov and compared a 4 cylinder non-hybrid Camry to a Chevy Bolt.  Annual fuel cost for the Camry is $1250.  For the Bolt it is $550 with their calculations based on electricity cost.  That difference is not enough to justify a Bolt over a Camry on monetary grounds given the much higher cost of the Bolt even with the govt tax credit. 
You've detailed the left-brain decision rationale of EVs as transportation propositions. I think it's reasonable also to throw in the non-tangible right-brain stuff too. EVs are strong on entertaining owners: geeks & nerds who love the cool wizardry, as well as crunchy environmentals keen to cut back on fossil fuels & tailpipe emissions.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

veeman

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 09, 2018, 03:27:40 AM
You've detailed the left-brain decision rationale of EVs as transportation propositions. I think it's reasonable also to throw in the non-tangible right-brain stuff too. EVs are strong on entertaining owners: geeks & nerds who love the cool wizardry, as well as crunchy environmentals keen to cut back on fossil fuels & tailpipe emissions.

True.  It's all mostly right brain stuff driving EV purchases.  Fuel economy arguments are mostly bs because their price point is too high for something with decent range even with govt subsidies.  I'd love a model 3 but it's luxury car or near luxury car pricing makes it a no go for replacement of my Crosstrek.  Plus there's just a lot of PITA features I just don't want to deal with.  I usually park my car outside my garage not really caring too much where in my driveway I park it. The electricity not very infrequently goes out where I live during storms when a tree falls on some wiring.  Happens for a few hours, to an entire night, half a dozen times a year.  Long commute.

I need 300 mile plus range including in the winter, cost under 25 grand, and decent size with a useable backseat.  All those boxes get checked, I'm in line. 

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 09, 2018, 03:27:40 AM
You've detailed the left-brain decision rationale of EVs as transportation propositions. I think it's reasonable also to throw in the non-tangible right-brain stuff too. EVs are strong on entertaining owners: geeks & nerds who love the cool wizardry, as well as crunchy environmentals keen to cut back on fossil fuels & tailpipe emissions.

There's something in it for enthusiasts too.... truly instant torque, peak power everywhere & a low center of gravity. Enthusiasts are a conservative & stubborn bunch though. Someone on TCL was triggered when I said gearboxes are pointless in EVs. "But how will I connect with the car?????"
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Soup DeVille

Silly question.

With the USB port in the base of your skull, like normal people.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Laconian

No worse than any of the German brands, who have all ezorcised MTs from their lineups
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

12,000 RPM

Enthusiasts no buy. Besides, there are other ways to connect with a car.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2018, 11:28:48 AM
Enthusiasts no buy.

Car enthusiasts on forums don't buy anything new, because they're 16 years old.

Adults appreciate nuance better than "6MT RWD>*" kids.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

shp4man

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
Car enthusiasts on forums don't buy anything new, because they're 16 years old.

Adults appreciate nuance better than "6MT RWD>*" kids.

I've heard that a significant percentage of that generation aren't interested in car ownership.

BimmerM3

Quote from: shp4man on November 09, 2018, 03:22:38 PM
I've heard that a significant percentage of that generation aren't interested in car ownership.

I wouldn't be surprised. I'm 30 and most people my age see car ownership more as a necessary expense than anything else, and with Lyft/Uber and car sharing services like Zipcar, it's easier than ever to get around without actually owning a vehicle, even in places without great public transit.

shp4man

The times, they are a-changin'

Laconian

Traffic's unbearably shitty in populated areas because infrastructure spending has been so poor for the past two or three decades (many thanks, Boomers). I can understand why driving in those conditions would be repulsive to a lot of people.

IMO it's good for everyone, including drivers, that some folks are flexible and open to finding transportation alternatives. It frees up capacity for the grouchy old people.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT