Rivian

[Soup DeVille]

Since cloth seats are not made from cotton but instead made from nylon or polyester, both of which are made from petroleum.   Alcantara of course is also a petroleum based product since it's a synthetic material.  And then there's pleather/leatherette/vinyl/vegan leather which is also petroleum based.

The only thing that's actually not petroleum based is leather. 

Cows eat feed corn, which is almost always grown in petrochemical fertilizers.
Therefore; cows are petroleum byproducts.

[Laconian]

There are a number of interiors which use fabrics produced from recycled plastics as their upholstery, like the Ioniq 5.

[Soup DeVille]

There are a number of interiors which use fabrics produced from recycled plastics as their upholstery, like the Ioniq 5.

I always wonder about the specifics of those claims. All plastic contains a certain amount of recycled material- its more a matter of degree than any one product being made "from recycled material" or not. And there's also the difference between pre- and post-consumer recycling.

Anyways- cows aren't exactly good for the environment either when it comes down to it.

[Morris Minor]

I dumped my small holding in Rivian - cut my losses. Lesson learned.
They way they did this price increase was insulting to deposit holders. Bait & switch destroys goodwill, &, right now, goodwill is all they have. Someone wasn't thinking.

[Laconian]

I always wonder about the specifics of those claims. All plastic contains a certain amount of recycled material- its more a matter of degree than any one product being made "from recycled material" or not. And there's also the difference between pre- and post-consumer recycling.

Anyways- cows aren't exactly good for the environment either when it comes down to it.

You can make pretty convincing leather out of fungus, but it only lasts a few years.

[SJ_GTI]

All joking aside, using petroleum to make products that are intended to be long lasting is actually perfectly fine from an environmental point of view, and often a better choice for the environment than "renewable" sources. Single use plastic bags are only bad for the environment because they are single use. A reusable nylon grocery bag is only more environmentally friendly than the single use option if it is used many time (usually hundreds). Given the total life cycle, cotton bags could theoretically be better than single use plastic bags (if used enough times) but they are far worse than multi-use nylon bags for a given number of uses, and since nylon bags deteriorate so slowly (and are far easy to clean) you are far more likely to use the nylon bag more times anyway. I have been using the same nylon bags for well over a decade now. I got them when I was living in Montreal (were given to me free as promotional items IIRC) and they still feel as good as new.

When it comes to car seats I expect the math is similar. Nylon/Polyester/pleather seats should last longer and be more environmentally friendly than organic choices. Leather could maybe last the life of a car (~50 years) as long as it is maintained well. It is hard to see organic cloth lasting that long.

The "environmental" downside to petrochemicals is when you burn them. If you use petroleum materials to make long last products there is no pollution upon use, and generally speaking the pollution created during manufacturing petroleum products is generally less than non-petroleum equivalents.

[Soup DeVille]

You can make pretty convincing leather out of fungus, but it only lasts a few years.

You can- and I have some.

But it doesn't hold up; and worse, as it ages, it just sort of crumbles away.

[Soup DeVille]

All joking aside, using petroleum to make products that are intended to be long lasting is actually perfectly fine from an environmental point of view, and often a better choice for the environment than "renewable" sources. Single use plastic bags are only bad for the environment because they are single use. A reusable nylon grocery bag is only more environmentally friendly than the single use option if it is used many time (usually hundreds). Given the total life cycle, cotton bags could theoretically be better than single use plastic bags (if used enough times) but they are far worse than multi-use nylon bags for a given number of uses, and since nylon bags deteriorate so slowly (and are far easy to clean) you are far more likely to use the nylon bag more times anyway. I have been using the same nylon bags for well over a decade now. I got them when I was living in Montreal (were given to me free as promotional items IIRC) and they still feel as good as new.

When it comes to car seats I expect the math is similar. Nylon/Polyester/pleather seats should last longer and be more environmentally friendly than organic choices. Leather could maybe last the life of a car (~50 years) as long as it is maintained well. It is hard to see organic cloth lasting that long.

The "environmental" downside to petrochemicals is when you burn them. If you use petroleum materials to make long last products there is no pollution upon use, and generally speaking the pollution created during manufacturing petroleum products is generally less than non-petroleum equivalents.

As far as car seats go, I's wager that most car seats last the life of the car regardless of how good or bad they are.

People just don't replace car seats very often.  I did know one guy that would Rotate his passenger and driver seat every year- and I have to admit that makes a lot of sense, but its probably not an option for most newer cars.

[veeman]

I think the great majority of leather products get manufactured in China or other developing nations.  A lot of the leather actually comes from U.S. cow hide, gets shipped overseas where it is made into whatever (let's say car seat covering), and then get's shipped to wherever final assembly takes place.  The process of taking the cow hide and making it into the product is very bad for the environment in 3rd world countries. In India for example, they just dump the tannery water which is full of chromium straight into the river. 

Most modern cars with leather seats actually have leather seating surfaces. The sides and back of the seat are vinyl.  I prefer leather or good vinyl (leatherette or whatever they call it) because it's much easier to stain cloth.  My current Veloster and prior Crosstrek had cloth.  I don't really like it but it's not that big a deal.  The cloth on the base Crosstrek I had was very cheap and started ripping on the driver's seat.  So I bought a real cheap car seat cover and just put it on the driver's seat.  When I sold it to the dealer, I don't think the person who inspected the car and drove it even realized the driver's seat had a car seat cover on it.   

Mercedes has an option for upgraded leather seats (over their standard seats) as an expensive option. Those upgraded seats are sweet.   

[Laconian]

You can- and I have some.

But it doesn't hold up; and worse, as it ages, it just sort of crumbles away.

How about a latex interior? Natural, renewable, perfectly in character for Spyker.

[Soup DeVille]

I think the great majority of leather products get manufactured in China or other developing nations.  A lot of the leather actually comes from U.S. cow hide, gets shipped overseas where it is made into whatever (let's say car seat covering), and then get's shipped to wherever final assembly takes place.  The process of taking the cow hide and making it into the product is very bad for the environment in 3rd world countries. In India for example, they just dump the tannery water which is full of chromium straight into the river. 

Most modern cars with leather seats actually have leather seating surfaces. The sides and back of the seat are vinyl.  I prefer leather or good vinyl (leatherette or whatever they call it) because it's much easier to stain cloth.  My current Veloster and prior Crosstrek had cloth.  I don't really like it but it's not that big a deal.  The cloth on the base Crosstrek I had was very cheap and started ripping on the driver's seat.  So I bought a real cheap car seat cover and just put it on the driver's seat.  When I sold it to the dealer, I don't think the person who inspected the car and drove it even realized the driver's seat had a car seat cover on it.   

Mercedes has an option for upgraded leather seats (over their standard seats) as an expensive option. Those upgraded seats are sweet.   

I mean, shipping work to countries with no real environmental protections isn't limited to tanning. Its a
real problem with basically everything that produces any sort of waste.

[NomisR]

Cows eat feed corn, which is almost always grown in petrochemical fertilizers.
Therefore; cows are petroleum byproducts.

I always wonder about the specifics of those claims. All plastic contains a certain amount of recycled material- its more a matter of degree than any one product being made "from recycled material" or not. And there's also the difference between pre- and post-consumer recycling.

Anyways- cows aren't exactly good for the environment either when it comes down to it.

I didn't know you were a NWO globalist

But yeah, it's why they don't want us to eat meat...

However, aren't cows mostly grass fed when they can and finished on grain based diet to bulk up at the end?   I guess it depends on the cow factory they're from.

[Soup DeVille]

I didn't know you were a NWO globalist

But yeah, it's why they don't want us to eat meat...

However, aren't cows mostly grass fed when they can and finished on grain based diet to bulk up at the end?   I guess it depends on the cow factory they're from.

I believe that we can do things better. But I also believe that will come through advancing technology, and the availability of better processes, rather than authoritarianism.

[NomisR]

I believe that we can do things better. But I also believe that will come through advancing technology, and the availability of better processes, rather than authoritarianism.

This I can agree with.. but in some ways, we're limited by how quickly the government allows us to advance in some ways.

[veeman]

How about a latex interior? Natural, renewable, perfectly in character for Spyker.

There are not an insignificant number of people with latex allergies though.  I think around 10% of health care workers have some latex sensitivity and a few have it really bad (anaphylaxis). 

[SJ_GTI]

There are not an insignificant number of people with latex allergies though.  I think around 10% of health care workers have some latex sensitivity and a few have it really bad (anaphylaxis).

We use nitrile gloves in our factory, I think these are less likely to cause allergic reactions.

[veeman]

Rivian reverses course and will no longer hike the price of their cars for people who have put down money on reservations.  Haha. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/rivian-rolls-back-price-hike-orders-before-march-1-2022-03-03/

[NomisR]

How about a latex interior? Natural, renewable, perfectly in character for Spyker.

I think they start decomposing after 5 years.

[Morris Minor]

I think they have a great product, competing in Range Rover & M-B GLS lifestyle territory. They obviously realized they were severely underpriced, and that early buyers will be flipping their Rivians for money that should be theirs. But the way they went about remedying it was a damaging mistake: ruining trust and goodwill. It will take a while to recover those.

[MrH]

I think the great majority of leather products get manufactured in China or other developing nations.  A lot of the leather actually comes from U.S. cow hide, gets shipped overseas where it is made into whatever (let's say car seat covering), and then get's shipped to wherever final assembly takes place.  The process of taking the cow hide and making it into the product is very bad for the environment in 3rd world countries. In India for example, they just dump the tannery water which is full of chromium straight into the river. 

Most modern cars with leather seats actually have leather seating surfaces. The sides and back of the seat are vinyl.  I prefer leather or good vinyl (leatherette or whatever they call it) because it's much easier to stain cloth.  My current Veloster and prior Crosstrek had cloth.  I don't really like it but it's not that big a deal.  The cloth on the base Crosstrek I had was very cheap and started ripping on the driver's seat.  So I bought a real cheap car seat cover and just put it on the driver's seat.  When I sold it to the dealer, I don't think the person who inspected the car and drove it even realized the driver's seat had a car seat cover on it.   

Mercedes has an option for upgraded leather seats (over their standard seats) as an expensive option. Those upgraded seats are sweet.   

Wait, what?  Maybe a car cover from Amazon is made in China.  I can't think of a single plant that sources OEM leather from China that's being manufactured in the North America.  Pretty much all plants in the US mostly have their coming from Mexico.  Sometimes it's done in the US.  Leather in Germany is often cut and sewn in something like Romania.  Cut and sew is typically really labor intensive, but there's a lot of issues with shipping leather long distance.  It's sensitive to temp and humidity changes.


And I don't think there are any OEMs with leather and vinyl seats.  It's typically just different grade leathers, depending on the area of the seat.

[Morris Minor]

As long as there are people eating hamburgers, there'll be leather for car seats.
I still prefer cloth.

[veeman]

Wait, what?  Maybe a car cover from Amazon is made in China.  I can't think of a single plant that sources OEM leather from China that's being manufactured in the North America.  Pretty much all plants in the US mostly have their coming from Mexico.  Sometimes it's done in the US.  Leather in Germany is often cut and sewn in something like Romania.  Cut and sew is typically really labor intensive, but there's a lot of issues with shipping leather long distance.  It's sensitive to temp and humidity changes.


And I don't think there are any OEMs with leather and vinyl seats.  It's typically just different grade leathers, depending on the area of the seat.

I'm pretty sure leather trimmed or leather seating surfaces means the face of the seat bottom and seat back are leather and the rest of the seat (sides and back) are some form of vinyl. 

You're right that the leather on car seats in American and European cars isn't usually finished in China.  For Europe a lot of it comes from Czechoslovakia and for the U.S. a lot of it comes from Mexico. 

[JWC]

Leather seats are almost always a combo of leather surfaces and vinyl sides and back. My recliner is the same. It is really visible with  the night vision on the security cameras. The different materials reflect differently.

[CaminoRacer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acSdPy38XKU

[SJ_GTI]

Saw that it was faster than the new Hummer too. The Rivian has a higher speed limited (~110 vs ~106) but it was ahead of the Hummer right from the start.  The Hummer is more powerful but also heavier.

[CaminoRacer]

I saw 2 Rivians on Thursday. One was charging at my office park. Very cool, although big. A Maverick-sized model would be my preference.

[Morris Minor]

I hope they succeed. If they can scale & get profitable it would be wonderful.
They do have the advantage not being stuck in legacy automaker cultural quicksand. Disadvantage is their cash burn.

Sandy Munro was so impressed by the engineering he sold his Rubicon & bought one for himself.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=munro+%26+associates+rivian

[CaminoRacer]

Hopefully their 3rd model will be a smaller cheaper model.

[Morris Minor]

Saw an R1T in an auto museum last week. It is beautiful, a work of art & no-expense-spared engineering.

I just don't see how they'll ever make money on this trajectory. They build Rolls-Royce & Ferrari-level componentry, engineering & quality... & sell it at bargain basement prices.

[Soup DeVille]

Saw an R1T in an auto museum last week. It is beautiful, a work of art & no-expense-spared engineering.

I just don't see how they'll ever make money on this trajectory. They build Rolls-Royce & Ferrari-level componentry, engineering & quality... & sell it at bargain basement prices.

It really is a pretty truck, but I do believe it will be a failure.

Rivian however, will likely be OK, as it will find its niche in medium duty commercial fleets (local service).