Saggy Butt

Started by veeman, August 28, 2021, 10:09:02 AM

veeman

Might have to dump my 2013 Infiniti QX56.  It's been my favorite car.  140 thousand miles.  I'm out of warranty now and I told myself that if any big repair comes up after the warranty was up, I would fix it and then sell it.  I had bought it certified and had gotten an extended manufacturer warranty that would cover it for something like 120 thousand miles.  It came in handy.  Once my warranty was up, I started taking it to a local independent shop for routine stuff (brakes, oil changes, change out some worn hoses, etc).  Car still driving great but last few weeks the car's ass seems low to the ground.  I especially noticed it when hitching some bikes. 

This car has a complex rear air suspension.  Made an appointment at the dealership in a few days for a diagnostic ($170).  I have a feeling the repair will be over a thousand dollars. If it's under one thousand five hundred, I'll fix it and then sell it.  If it's over that much, I'll probably have the independent shop I go to ditch it and replace it with a standard suspension (by googling, this can be done it seems).


Submariner

Is it rear only or at all four corners? 

Also, is one side lower than the other or is it roughly as low on both sides?
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

Soup DeVille

#2
Most of the LX470s eventually have the adjustable front suspension replaced with standard Land Cruiser springs. It used to be a thing with Town Cars too; the rear air suspension eventually got the spring from a Crown Vic.

The solution here sounds like the same- replace the Infiniti parts with Nissan Armada parts.

Air suspensions on light vehicles just seem to be trouble prone for no good reason.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Submariner

Looks like it's at the rear only.
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

Submariner

Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2021, 11:27:24 AM
Most of the LX470s eventually have the adjustable front suspension replaced with standard Land Cruiser springs. It used to be a thing with Town Cars too; the rear air suspension eventually got the spring from a Crown Vic.

Air suspensions on light vehicles just seem to be trouble prone for no good reason.

They're super comfy.

I've driven two Mercedes ML's back to back - one with Airmatic and one without.  The dlfference is night and day, really - much more supple without any roll or float. 

2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

Submariner

There are a couple of coil replacement kits going for $500 and up online.  Looks like new bag + compressor + lines kit (might as well replace the whole thing) starts at $1000
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

veeman

Quote from: Submariner on August 28, 2021, 11:23:14 AM
Is it rear only or at all four corners? 

Also, is one side lower than the other or is it roughly as low on both sides?

Yeah it's just the rear.  Equal sagging on both sides.  The ride of this car has been great even with the 22 in wheels. To me a big repair after a warranty is up on a luxury make is a sign that I should get rid of it sooner rather than later.  Especially because it's our long distance travel car.  KBB says dealer trade in should yield between 11 and 14 thousand.  I'd strongly consider getting a certified same model (now called QX80) newer low mileage car. 

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Submariner on August 28, 2021, 11:29:38 AM
They're super comfy.

I've driven two Mercedes ML's back to back - one with Airmatic and one without.  The dlfference is night and day, really - much more supple without any roll or float. 



Oh, I know why they use them; I just don't understand why they're so much trouble.
Big trucks use them all the time, and they aren't a major cause of headaches.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Submariner

Low quality components is the only explanation I can think of.  Airbags last forever on big trucks, no?
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

GoCougs

I can confirm that air ride is a revolution in ride quality. However, yes, they all seem to fail at some point, and it is usually colossally expensive, if you're lucky parts are even available. Perhaps you get (very) lucky and it's cheap fix...

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Submariner on August 28, 2021, 10:59:08 PM
Low quality components is the only explanation I can think of.  Airbags last forever on big trucks, no?

Not forever; but longer than the service life of most passenger vehicles.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

The suspension systems that use a closed loop seem to last a bit longer.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2021, 12:21:43 AM
Not forever; but longer than the service life of most passenger vehicles.

The air system on a commercial rig is for more than just the suspension, and I suspect many times more robust (in terms of MTBF).  They also have a dirt simple ride height control system (a T valve on the frame actuated by a rod on the axle that either inflates or deflates the bags based on how compressed the suspension is).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2021, 11:27:24 AM
Most of the LX470s eventually have the adjustable front suspension replaced with standard Land Cruiser springs. It used to be a thing with Town Cars too; the rear air suspension eventually got the spring from a Crown Vic.

The solution here sounds like the same- replace the Infiniti parts with Nissan Armada parts.

Air suspensions on light vehicles just seem to be trouble prone for no good reason.
Do the air bags on vehicles such as this also have compressors to replenish/regulate air pressure?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on August 29, 2021, 09:16:20 AM
Do the air bags on vehicles such as this also have compressors to replenish/regulate air pressure?

Yes.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on August 29, 2021, 08:58:04 AM
The air system on a commercial rig is for more than just the suspension, and I suspect many times more robust (in terms of MTBF).  They also have a dirt simple ride height control system (a T valve on the frame actuated by a rod on the axle that either inflates or deflates the bags based on how compressed the suspension is).

Yes, the compressor is a big deal: but IME, its not the compressor or even the ride height system that usually fails, but the air bags themselves.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

Quote from: FoMoJo on August 29, 2021, 09:16:20 AM
Do the air bags on vehicles such as this also have compressors to replenish/regulate air pressure?

There are 2 types of air suspension systems in cars... One is an open loop system where air is vented to atmosphere and new air is drawn in from the compressor.  The other is a closed loop system which is sealed from the outside so there is never any makeup air.

Benefit of the closed loop is the system is always clean and dry.  Downside is no way of making up the air lost from a leak by itself
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

veeman

On a dealer trade in inspection, I doubt they would notice if I had a standard suspension installed.  That would likely save me a lot of money.  Once this car is repaired, I'll most likely trade it in.  My appointment with the Infiniti dealership is this Wednesday.  $170 diagnostic fee seems high but they've treated me well (this dealership) for years. 

GoCougs

I would investigate the removal of the air suspension. MY2013 is new enough that there may be all sorts of side effects (such as warning and error lights on the dash (my Audi has them)) that would negatively affect resale.

IME having lots of crappy cars in the past, it's never worth it to "invest" in a vehicle. If it's got major problems, live with it, unload it immediately or fix it and use/enjoy it for what it is, with zero expectation of any sort of return.

veeman

Quote from: GoCougs on August 29, 2021, 10:21:43 AM
I would investigate the removal of the air suspension. MY2013 is new enough that there may be all sorts of side effects (such as warning and error lights on the dash (my Audi has them)) that would negatively affect resale.

IME having lots of crappy cars in the past, it's never worth it to "invest" in a vehicle. If it's got major problems, live with it, unload it immediately or fix it and use/enjoy it for what it is, with zero expectation of any sort of return.

Did not think of this (warning/error lights).  I'll have to query this on an Infiniti forum.  Yeah, I never expect any good return on my cars.  Just the most return I can get :lol:  I will most likely trade the car in once this is fixed.  It depends on what the Dealer quotes me to fix the air suspension whether I go that route or remove it and have an independent shop put in a standard suspension. 

shp4man

Quote from: veeman on August 29, 2021, 09:50:12 AM
On a dealer trade in inspection, I doubt they would notice if I had a standard suspension installed.  That would likely save me a lot of money.  Once this car is repaired, I'll most likely trade it in.  My appointment with the Infiniti dealership is this Wednesday.  $170 diagnostic fee seems high but they've treated me well (this dealership) for years. 

Let me explain what actually took place and the reason you were charged $170. ($150 at my place). A technician connected a scan tool, very likely an expensive make specific one, to the DLC and pulled all the active suspension and related codes. He then had to lift the vehicle, inspect and pintest the wiring to determine if it's an electronic problem or a mechanical one. Then, the high tech part. Activate the pump using the scan tool and inspect/spray soapy water on or hear the damn leak. There's about 200 yards of shitty nylon tubing. Then, if it's not the bags, try to determine the relative condition of the rest of the system (warranty 12/12000 on repairs).
Then, send a parts Req(uistion) see if the parts are in stock, or ETA on them, prepare an estimate, then give it to the smiling idiot (sevice advisor, sorry JWC) that wrote up your car.
The tech only gets about $38 or so, the company takes the rest.

veeman

Quote from: shp4man on August 29, 2021, 01:06:07 PM
Let me explain what actually took place and the reason you were charged $170. ($150 at my place). A technician connected a scan tool, very likely an expensive make specific one, to the DLC and pulled all the active suspension and related codes. He then had to lift the vehicle, inspect and pintest the wiring to determine if it's an electronic problem or a mechanical one. Then, the high tech part. Activate the pump using the scan tool and inspect/spray soapy water on or hear the damn leak. There's about 200 yards of shitty nylon tubing. Then, if it's not the bags, try to determine the relative condition of the rest of the system (warranty 12/12000 on repairs).
Then, send a parts Req(uistion) see if the parts are in stock, or ETA on them, prepare an estimate, then give it to the smiling idiot (sevice advisor, sorry JWC) that wrote up your car.
The tech only gets about $38 or so, the company takes the rest.

I am now enlightened.  Thanks!  The fee goes towards the repair if I decide to get it done.  It's a drop off with a free loaner (which is always the case for anything more involved than an oil change or brakes at this dealership). 

MX793

#22
Quote from: shp4man on August 29, 2021, 01:06:07 PM
The tech only gets about $38 or so, the company takes the rest.

The tech gets $38 per hour in their paycheck.  Another $2.xx per hour is paid on behalf of the tech to Social Security.  If health benefits are offered, that's another $2.xx per hour, assuming the shop covers $500/month in premiums.  Federal Unemployment insurance is another $.20 an hour for the tech.  State UI will vary.  Then there's making sure that there is money for back office support staff whose work is necessary but doesn't directly generate revenue.  People like housekeeping staff or the folks who do payroll/billing.  Also need money for supplies like paper, ink, pens, computers, printers.  And facilities equipment (and upkeep of) like lifts, wheel and tire machines, air compressors, and HVAC.  And then there are property costs (insurance, lease payments, taxes...) and utilities (water, electric, gas, trash).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Morris Minor

Quote from: MX793 on August 30, 2021, 05:25:50 AM
The tech gets $38 per hour in their paycheck.  Another $2.xx per hour is paid on behalf of the tech to Social Security.  If health benefits are offered, that's another $2.xx per hour, assuming the shop covers $500/month in premiums.  Federal Unemployment insurance is another $.20 an hour for the tech.  State UI will vary.  Then there's making sure that there is money for back office support staff whose work is necessary but doesn't directly generate revenue.  People like housekeeping staff or the folks who do payroll/billing.  Also need money for supplies like paper, ink, pens, computers, printers.  And facilities equipment (and upkeep of) like lifts, wheel and tire machines, air compressors, and HVAC.  And then there are property costs (insurance, lease payments, taxes...) and utilities (water, electric, gas, trash).
And profit for the owners who put the whole thing together. Not sure I'd want to own an Infiniti franchise.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

SJ_GTI

FWIW, my dad's best friend owns an independent shop. He has done well. He has purchased quite a bit of commercial land/buildings around his shop that he leases out to other small businesses.

One of his sons is a mechanic (had been working at a MB dealership) and he wanted to hand the shop down to him. So he had his son come start working for him so he could not only start running the shop itself but also start to get him familiar with how to handle all the paperwork (payroll, accounts payable, taxes, etc...). After a about a year his son decided it was too much work (without enough rewards) to run a shop and went back to work at the dealership. I think employees often underestimate how much work/stress it is to run a business (small or large) and assume the owners/managers are just sitting around doing nothing and the whole place could operate just fine if they let the front line workers do their own thing.

veeman

So as a follow-up so far, I dropped off the car yesterday early morning.  I love this particular dealership experience.  I'm in the covered spacious waiting bay and the guy comes to the window of my car.  He looks around the car documenting any dents and checks the odometer.  He verifies what I want done (check rear suspension, oil change).  I decline either tire rotation or wheel alignment and window wiper change (lol, I didn't ask for that).  He makes me sign some documents on his IPAD with my finger tip while I'm still sitting in my car in the waiting bay. I give him my license, credit card, and auto insurance card for him to take pictures of. Then I get from the seat of my car to the waiting loaner car (a QX50) which is in the lane next to me with the key in the ignition and the car running.  So from the time I get into the waiting bay to the time I'm driving off in the loaner, my total wait time was less than 10 minutes. This QX50 is nice.  Looks great, very comfortable with luxury interior, and is quick. Stupid forgettable Infiniti model naming nomenclature aside, I wouldn't mind daily driving this car. 

I'm surprised they haven't texted or called me yet with the diagnostic.  I'm hoping I'll get to keep the loaner over the long weekend...

JWC

Quote from: shp4man on August 29, 2021, 01:06:07 PM
e, then give it to the smiling idiot (sevice advisor, sorry JWC) that wrote up your car.


Bite me.

I tried letting techs talk directly to customers, then have to explain to the customer that the work they agreed to do with the tech wasn't for free. "But he didn't say anything about charging me, I thought he was doing me a favor".

Yeah, he was doing you a $600 favor. :huh: Of course then you have a pissed off tech arguing that the guy told him to do it, he didn't ask how much.

My neighbor owned a Town Car with air suspension and needed air bags---$800. I told him to do away with those and buy the conversion kit. He had that installed with parts for $300.

shp4man

Quote from: JWC on September 02, 2021, 03:04:04 PM
Bite me.

I tried letting techs talk directly to customers, then have to explain to the customer that the work they agreed to do with the tech wasn't for free. "But he didn't say anything about charging me, I thought he was doing me a favor".

Yeah, he was doing you a $600 favor. :huh: Of course then you have a pissed off tech arguing that the guy told him to do it, he didn't ask how much.

My neighbor owned a Town Car with air suspension and needed air bags---$800. I told him to do away with those and buy the conversion kit. He had that installed with parts for $300.

:lol:

MX793

Quote from: shp4man on September 02, 2021, 04:14:29 PM
:lol:

Seriously, you should be grateful there's somebody who works the desk and is willing to deal with customers so you don't have to.  Especially when the customer is the general public.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

veeman

#29
So the culprit was the compressor partially rusted off the bracket.  $1250 to fix it (parts and labor).  I got it done.  Car back to normal. 

Looking to trade it in for another same model newer car pronto.  Scouring the autotrader ads.  Wife wants a 3 row Audi or Mercedes but I'm steering her away from those.  They're not as large (Audi Q7/ Merc GLS), more expensive to buy, more expensive to maintain, and I don't think as reliable (Sorry Wimmer  :lol:).  The QX80 is more thirsty but using fueleconomy.gov, the extra cost over the other options isn't that much compared with overall cost of ownership.  The largeness of the car doesn't bother us.  We're in rural suburbia and I've driven the car many times in NYC as well.  It's manageable.