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Another interesting piece of commentary from our own IFCAR on the top-selling cars in North America...

http://www.carspin.net/content/archive/200...mry_success.php (http://www.carspin.net/content/archive/2005_07_11_accord_camry_success.php)

Dan, I'll post a link of this on Autoweek forums, so we get more traffic.

Wow, I'm shocked. Especially considering ifcar's own midsize sedan comparison review placed Accord and Camry 1st and 2nd, respectively. I think ifcar had held these biases as well until he started driving more of their competitors (I recall his original review included "Honda reliability" and "Toyota reliability" as 'pros' in favour of the Camry and Accord, which I... tactfully reminded him... :D ... was incredibly biased, prejudicial and presumptuous).

All-arounders are still comparo-winners, if not the best car for each and every consumer. But in the next IFCAR midsize car comparo (on hold until the 06 Fusion and Impala come out), the new Sonata is almost certainly going to be the first-place vehicle.

And I still stand by my original logic there, and if it were to hijack this thread, it would represent the third (possibly the fourth) time that it has.

One of my relatives from Scotland is visiting Calgary for the next couple weeks, and this is what he drives back home:

(http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/images/gallery/800_10410_10734_08.jpg)

Honda Accord Tourer 2.4 i-VTEC Executive. Absolute crying shame we're force-fed this turd instead:

(http://www.edmunds.com/media/news/column/letterstotheediors/02.aug/03.honda.accord.sedan.f34.500.jpg)

(http://www.nightly.net/ubb/graemlins/puke.gif)

That wagon is really nice.  I've always liked the 90s Accord wagon but this one's even better.

He rented a Buick Allure CX last week. Let's just say it's a pretty big adjustment for him. :lol:

His exact words were "Drives like a boat an has no power at'all. You put your foot down,  makes lots of noise, but nothin' 'appens!"

QuoteHe rented a Buick Allure CX last week. Let's just say it's a pretty big adjustment for him. :lol:

His exact words were "Drives like a boat an has no power at'all. You put your foot down,  makes lots of noise, but nothin' 'appens!"

Not everyone appreciates the 3800 :rolleyes: :lol:    Does he think his Accord is any quicker??? Maybe to 60, but not much after.

His Accord has a 6-speed manual, so it probably is quicker: to 60 and all speeds afterward.

Damn.

http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?for...=17927&tstart=0 (http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?forumID=9&threadID=17927&tstart=0)

Ifcar, thats the link if you want to respond to criticism for your article.

Thanks, Dave. :)

QuoteThanks, Dave. :)

No problem. :)  

ifcar, that was sort of a degrading article towards the accord and camry. so what if everyone buys them? Honda and Toyota deserve all the sales. Consumers lost their trust in American brands because of the crapboxes they were producing, while honda and toyota have been making good cars all this while, and now it's been paying off. It'll take a long time before people renew their trust with american brands, and hyundai and kia are still relatively smaller brands, and people just want to stick with brands that make reliable, dependable cars. that's not being stupid in any way.

When you are ready to counter the actual points made in the article let me know. :rolleyes:

"But research of the lesser-known midsize alternatives can often reward buyers by meeting their requirements either with an additional benefit (a lower cost being the most typical)."

I think a lot of people look past the purchase price, especially those who have been recently burned by the domestics low resale value.

The Camcord, while more expensive to buy initially, often is the cheapest car in the midsize class to own.  Tough to beat that - good, reliable and the cheapest to own.

Anyway, I like your article.  It shows that the good will Honda and Toyota have earned over the years is paying handsome rewards, in the form of repeat buyers.

Camcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

QuoteCamcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

I dropped my A4 off for service today and they gave me a FWD A4 automatic as a loaner (I was hoping for an A3, but apparently their whole fleet is FWD A4's  :P ).

Anyway its still a sporty car, even with the 16 inch wheels. At the same time its far more forgiving than my A4 over bumps (especially speed bumps...their are a few where I work where I have to be extremely careful with my A4 or it will hit the bottom). Power is still decent, but not as direct as mine (since I have a 6-speed manual of course).

I can see why you dig the Passat, assuming it drives the same as this A4. I thik I would take a TSX over a FWD A4 or FWD Passat though to be honest. But its close enough that i could see someone else taking the A4 or Passat depending on personal taste.

Sorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  :rockon:

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.  :(  

QuoteSorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  :rockon:

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.  :(

She doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.  

QuoteShe doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.

Well I agree it is stupid, but it is anti-American.

If she will never buy an American product because its not made by Toyota, it has the net effect of being "Anti-American."

PS. And I do find that scary, in the long-run. It says that no matter what an American company does, they will never get her business. Now if it was just her I wouldn't care, but I have a feeling that is a common sentiment among the general car-buying public.

Quote

QuoteShe doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.

Well I agree it is stupid, but it is anti-American.

If she will never buy an American product because its not made by Toyota, it has the net effect of being "Anti-American."

PS. And I do find that scary, in the long-run. It says that no matter what an American company does, they will never get her business. Now if it was just her I wouldn't care, but I have a feeling that is a common sentiment among the general car-buying public.

If it were just her, an article would not have emerged based on her comments.  ;)  

My mom's friend had her minivan hit and totaled recently.  Guess what their first choice in a replacement is?  (there are two good guesses, but only one is right)  

Sienna or Odyssey?

QuoteSienna or Odyssey?

Yup, Odyssey.    

Very good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ;)):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.  

QuoteVery good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ;)):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.

Thanks. It's getting a good response over at the GMI forums as well, where I found a thread about it while I was over there about to post it myself. I also posted it myself at The Car Connection forums, Dave posted it on AutoWeek, and Dan posted it at C/D, so we should be getting some new traffic here.

BTW, I noticed the missing period only after it was put up, and I can't modify it once it's online, and I didn't think it was worth troubling Dan over.

And it's "punctuation".  ;)  

QuoteVery good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ;)):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.

Yes, I noticed that mistake too...but overall it was a great article.

Quotein the next IFCAR midsize car comparo (on hold until the 06 Fusion and Impala come out), the new Sonata is almost certainly going to be the first-place vehicle.

Ifcar, you know we'll assume you rigged the results now.  :D  You and that Hyundai bias.  :P  

Theres an irate poster at Autoweek CDNRods--you'll need to respond to that :lol:

He told you to dig your head out of the sand :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is what the scientists have to say about this effect in sampling at least.

From Consumer Reports own forums:

"Lyman,

What Francis is talking about, the influence CR has on it's subscribers when they state Hondas and Toyotas are reliable and are typically rated higher than domestics and how it effects their surveys is known in Psychology as "Demand Characteristics."

Essentially, the participants in these surveys are picking up on the clues, findings, biases, etc, from the researcher and in turn are giving back a response the researcher is looking for or found. I admit, this not intentional on CR's part, but it is a real problem in surveys and particularly, one that has for many years been rating the Japanese makes as more reliable and essentially better  than the domestics as has CR. For example, if CR says that a certain car has a coarse, noisy engine it is likely that the person driving that car will pick up on that "problem" where none existed before. A good car that exhibits the same characteristic will go unobserved and unreported, because CR did not report this as an issue. The  bias is found with the participant of the survey and not the researcher.

Other issues with CR's surveys include, Response Rate, what percentage of people are actually responding to the survey.

Lumping a model of all the trim lines  together to get their reliability verdicts. For example, The Saturn Vue has a well below average of predicted reliability. However, the major issue with the Saturn Vue was with the 2002 (and lesser extent the 2003) 2.2 4 cylinder VUE with VTI. The V6 version of the VUE never had the issues that plagued it's 4 cylinder counterpart. An example of this is with the Pontiac Grand Prix which, has a very good reliability verdict, except for the supercharged model. In other words, the same models, especially with different engines and transmissions can exhibit different rates of reliability. But, this seems, with the very rare exception, not to be a concern with CR and therefore different trim lines, one which may be more reliable than another trim line goes unreported.

Defining "serious." Different people have different perceptions of what a serious problem may be with a car.

The Sampling Frame: CR gets it's reliability verdicts from their online and magazine subscribers. First, this will certainly preclude those who are less affluent because, many can't afford a subscription to CR, much less to a computer. It has also been shown, that those people who participate in online surveys tend to be younger, better educated and more affluent. That in itself, suggests, that CR's surveys do not represent the general car poulation at large.

Jeff"

justsomeguy3116, welcome to the forums :)

I hope you post here a lot :)

The Accord and Camry article was excellent. The Asian bias is out of control.I own a 2004 Malibu LT. The car is awesome!  It is a huge Camry and Accord eater.

Thanks, and welcome to the forums! The current Malibu is a great car and a great deal. :)

QuoteThe Accord and Camry article was excellent. The Asian bias is out of control.I own a 2004 Malibu LT. The car is awesome!  It is a huge Camry and Accord eater.

Welcome to the forums :)  Hope you enjoy posting here :)

Quote

QuoteCamcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

I dropped my A4 off for service today and they gave me a FWD A4 automatic as a loaner (I was hoping for an A3, but apparently their whole fleet is FWD A4's  :P ).

Anyway its still a sporty car, even with the 16 inch wheels. At the same time its far more forgiving than my A4 over bumps (especially speed bumps...their are a few where I work where I have to be extremely careful with my A4 or it will hit the bottom). Power is still decent, but not as direct as mine (since I have a 6-speed manual of course).

I can see why you dig the Passat, assuming it drives the same as this A4. I thik I would take a TSX over a FWD A4 or FWD Passat though to be honest. But its close enough that i could see someone else taking the A4 or Passat depending on personal taste.

Sorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  :rockon:

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.  :(

It feels almost exactly like a FWD A4, down to the auto and everything.  I would take the TSX over it also, especially with a stick, but considering the TSX costs 28K and Acura wanted $500 a month on the same lease as the Passat, a car that was only 3K less.  Considering my brother's 50K E320 was $504 and mine was $550, including tax, I felt the TSX was a ripoff.  

This same topic at Autoweek has about 140 replies now and is ten pages long :o

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

Quote

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

Quote

Quote

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Quote

Quote

Quote

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

How do you know they're from AutoWeek?

And let me just say that AutoWeek may have the worst forum that I have ever encountered. Populated by large numbers of ungrammatical idiots, and having the poorest excuse for forum software that I have ever encountered. I've been on two different free-software forums, and they were ages better.

Rant over.

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

QuoteI wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do. :(

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

How do you know they're from AutoWeek?

And let me just say that AutoWeek may have the worst forum that I have ever encountered. Populated by large numbers of ungrammatical idiots, and having the poorest excuse for forum software that I have ever encountered. I've been on two different free-software forums, and they were ages better.

Rant over.

:lol:

I noticed one guy (justsomecarguy) who posted at Autoweek and then became a member here, and I dont really know where the other guy came from for sure.

And yes, their forum software is absolute, absolute, crap! :lol:  

Anti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

QuoteAnti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

They both made 1 I believe.

Quote

QuoteAnti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

They both made 1 I believe.

And we'll never see them again.  

Honda and Toyota are still one step above all other models in the midsize sedan category.  For the price you pay, you're gettin a lot more car in these to vehicles (Accord and Camry) than in others from Ford, Chevy, etc.  Both acceleration and fuel economy are better from these makers, reliability is still one step above others, and luxurious amenities such as heated, leather seats, world-class navigation systems (Honda), and the roomiest interiors available also lean consumers towards these models.  And why shouldn't they?  Most competition can not say this of their vehicles.

What vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

QuoteWhat vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

am i allowed to say that i think that the CAmry and Accord are near best in class?

Quote

QuoteWhat vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

am i allowed to say that i think that the CAmry and Accord are near best in class?

Of course, as I am. And do.  

II hate to start off on the wrong foot here, but I have to challenge this article. It is a fine editorial, and one that is clearly preaching to the choir here, but there doesn't seem to be much substance in it.

The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous.

You ask why she wants another Camry and she says here current one is ?the best car I ever owned.? Rather than dismissing that claim it should have been clear that it the only reason she and many millions of others need to stick with one nameplate. It?s a part of brand loyalty. You don?t discuss this, but based on her comment it seems reasonable to assume she?s owned other cars? From one of the Big 3 perhaps?

Most humans beings, rational or not, cannot completely detach themselves from their past personal experiences ? or the experiences of those close to them. If she had a prior experience with ? as a hypothetical ? a Chevy and it included constant trips to the dealer to fix annoyances major or minor it will color her perception of the brand for years. If here experience with the Camry involves just regular maintenance ? aside from one unusual trip for the transmission ? it will have a completely different place in her memory.

She doesn?t need to prove to you that the Camry is technically or dynamically superior. That?s not even part of the process for her. Her own experience tells her that the Camry is more reliable than her previous car(s). And it has carved our very specific spot in her emotion and memory.  

I?m hoping people will respond so I can flesh this out a little. I want to leave with this thought though.

GM fully recognizes the lagging perception that it suffers from ? that it is still paying the price for mistakes made in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The Employee program is an attempt to fix that. They have a stable of high-quality, reliable vehicles today, and all reports are that the next generation of vehicles will be stylistically and dynamically outstanding.

They are bringing people in with exceptional deals in the hope that they will develop a satisfied consumer base who has experienced GM quality first-hand. Then the next generation can be launched without having to fight the uphill perception battle.

Yoshi, I think the point was that the woman had a bias.  She was unwilling to try new cars based on a preconcieved notion that the Camry is the best.  Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't consider other models.  

Welcome to Carspin :)  

"The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous."

If everyone viewed the car buying process as purely rational more Toyotas and Hondas would be sold, not less. Those cars don't appeal to peoples emotional sides, people don't drool over Camries (except maybe iffy ;)). Essentially, what I am saying is that for most Toyota and Honda buyers the car selection process is a by the numbers situation, I highly doubt many people chose a Camry because they are emotionally drawn to it.  

QuoteII hate to start off on the wrong foot here, but I have to challenge this article. It is a fine editorial, and one that is clearly preaching to the choir here, but there doesn't seem to be much substance in it.

The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous.

You ask why she wants another Camry and she says here current one is ?the best car I ever owned.? Rather than dismissing that claim it should have been clear that it the only reason she and many millions of others need to stick with one nameplate. It?s a part of brand loyalty. You don?t discuss this, but based on her comment it seems reasonable to assume she?s owned other cars? From one of the Big 3 perhaps?

Most humans beings, rational or not, cannot completely detach themselves from their past personal experiences ? or the experiences of those close to them. If she had a prior experience with ? as a hypothetical ? a Chevy and it included constant trips to the dealer to fix annoyances major or minor it will color her perception of the brand for years. If here experience with the Camry involves just regular maintenance ? aside from one unusual trip for the transmission ? it will have a completely different place in her memory.

She doesn?t need to prove to you that the Camry is technically or dynamically superior. That?s not even part of the process for her. Her own experience tells her that the Camry is more reliable than her previous car(s). And it has carved our very specific spot in her emotion and memory.  

I?m hoping people will respond so I can flesh this out a little. I want to leave with this thought though.

GM fully recognizes the lagging perception that it suffers from ? that it is still paying the price for mistakes made in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The Employee program is an attempt to fix that. They have a stable of high-quality, reliable vehicles today, and all reports are that the next generation of vehicles will be stylistically and dynamically outstanding.

They are bringing people in with exceptional deals in the hope that they will develop a satisfied consumer base who has experienced GM quality first-hand. Then the next generation can be launched without having to fight the uphill perception battle.

Welcome to CarSPIN, and you certainly have a great start as a thoughtful, intelligent, and insightful poster. Starting out on the wrong foot would be coming and saying, in full, "i think the articles dumb. i have an accord, it has lots of miles on it and its a great car."  ;)

Personally, I believe that any decision should be as rational as possible, particularly an expensive purchase. Brand loyalty goes firmly against all of that, and I am firmly against brand loyalty, for the reasons of bias stated in the article.

Yes, she has owned other cars. I'm afraid I don't know them all, but her previous car was a 1984 Celica (which she was not particularly fond of, but I believe it was reliable except for a rust issue that eventually killed it off), and her husband was driving at the time an 86 (?) 300ZX and an 88 Firebird. She bought the 96 Camry (after no cross-shopping) on a friend's recommendation.


As to the GM Employee Discount Program, there is a topic elsewhere on these forums about an article that compared GM's "conquest rate" (the percentage of buyers who traded in a non-GM car) of before and during the discount, and they were almost identical, suggesting what I had believed from the start: GM is merely winning its own customers, they are all just coming at once to get a better price (explaining the lack of a sales decline from import brands at the same month GM sales went up by almost 50%).

Quote"The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous."

If everyone viewed the car buying process as purely rational more Toyotas and Hondas would be sold, not less. Those cars don't appeal to peoples emotional sides, people don't drool over Camries (except maybe iffy ;)). Essentially, what I am saying is that for most Toyota and Honda buyers the car selection process is a by the numbers situation, I highly doubt many people chose a Camry because they are emotionally drawn to it.

I disagree there. It's not the same sort of emotion that auto enthusiasts have, but an emotion nonetheless. It's the simple recollection of a simple and rarely flawed ownership experience that brings back the Toyota loyalists.

The Camry is not bought by those who want to think about either their buying or ownership experience. It's by people who want to go to one dealer, buy one car, and never have to think about it until they decide they want a new one.

The problem is not the ownership experience. I don't fault Camryites for that aspect. It's the laziness and fear to look around at something else that, in some cases, will offer the same experience either better, or for less money.

Happy to be here.

Camcords do create emotions, is just not the emotions of an enthusiast. People get emotional attachments to toothpaste after all -- there are Crest loyalists out there.

I suppose my issue with the rationality of car buying comes from experience. In my own personal choices, and in the choices of those I've know, the car is probably the most emotional purchace anyone makes.

There's a reason people dedicate their lives to maintaining classics. There's a reason Lexus and Infiniti has to be created. There a reason people own and drive H1s and Enzos in Manhattan.

The issues we have with those who blindly buy Camrys or Accords can be applied to anyone with a long-held loyalty. Those who will never consider anything other than a BMW. People whose whole goal in life is to own a Mercedes, though they've never driven one. Those who maintain that Volvo's still have a measurable advantage in the safety department. We can make all the rational arguements we want, but cars are an inherently irrational purchase -- which is why BILLIONS is spent on advertising, racing and promotions to sell them.

And I didn't mean to suggest that GM's effort was successful, just my belief on the thought process that lead to it. Since it's my damned theory I'm also going to suggest they extended it because they didn't like the demographics of the buyers they'd seen to date.

Yoshi, welcome to the forums :)  Its good to have you on board :)

QuoteThe issues we have with those who blindly buy Camrys or Accords can be applied to anyone with a long-held loyalty. Those who will never consider anything other than a BMW. People whose whole goal in life is to own a Mercedes, though they've never driven one. Those who maintain that Volvo's still have a measurable advantage in the safety department. We can make all the rational arguements we want, but cars are an inherently irrational purchase -- which is why BILLIONS is spent on advertising, racing and promotions to sell them.

I agree with you for all of your examples, but we differ at the conclusion. Cars CAN be a largely irrational decision, and are for most people. But they SHOULDN'T be, and spending a few hours researching and comparing cars can do a lot to limit the irrationality and help to find the best possible car.

QuoteAnd I didn't mean to suggest that GM's effort was successful, just my belief on the thought process that lead to it. Since it's my damned theory I'm also going to suggest they extended it because they didn't like the demographics of the buyers they'd seen to date.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and one that I don't recall seeing anywhere else.
While I suppose that is possible, I don't think that they have any indication that continuing a promotion would modify the demographics of those responding to it, unless they manage to come up with a new way to market the deal, which they haven't.

We do differ on the conclusion because I firmly believe that cars should be irrational. As wonderful as they are from a technical or engineering standpoint, my interest in them is as cultural objects.

Look at how communities spring up around specific models or brands -- how particular aspects of a vehicle clearly reflect the culture of its homeland. Actually, that's what's got me excited about the new Lexus models, they've got the first hints of a truly Japanese design in them.

Opposite sides of the same coin you and I.

And I am drawing wild, and unsubstantiated conclusions on the GM front. I know a couple people in marketing there and would like to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I accept that this was just a wild grab for sales it will depress me.  

QuoteWe do differ on the conclusion because I firmly believe that cars should be irrational. As wonderful as they are from a technical or engineering standpoint, my interest in them is as cultural objects.

Look at how communities spring up around specific models or brands -- how particular aspects of a vehicle clearly reflect the culture of its homeland. Actually, that's what's got me excited about the new Lexus models, they've got the first hints of a truly Japanese design in them.

Opposite sides of the same coin you and I.

And I am drawing wild, and unsubstantiated conclusions on the GM front. I know a couple people in marketing there and would like to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I accept that this was just a wild grab for sales it will depress me.

The Accord and Camry really don't fit in with the sort of irrationality that you discuss. The owner loyalty found there is simply out of fear that if they try anything different, it won't provide them with as good of a pleasant but boring driving experience, despite the fact that there are other vehicles out there that could comparably or better satisfy them. That sort of irrationality has only to do with which vehicle they happened to buy and like first, and it simply is not good for anyone.

As for your GM theory, you may very well be right. I just haven't seen the same conclusion reached anywhere else, and find it an interesting one.  

This thread on autoweek is now 200 posts :o

The last few times I've checked, it was all name-calling among the members (worse than C/D). I shouldn't have to check in there any more.  

QuoteThe last few times I've checked, it was all name-calling among the members (worse than C/D). I shouldn't have to check in there any more.

Yes, they have some really stupid members there who are worse than c/d.  It is not an intellectual forum in the least bit.

Stupid people, bad software. Why'd you join there in the first place?

QuoteStupid people, bad software. Why'd you join there in the first place?

I was there before I went to C/D.

So, iffy, you don't think emotion should play any part in the car buying process? So, you think someone should buy a car they really don't like just because the numbers look better?  

QuoteSo, iffy, you don't think emotion should play any part in the car buying process? So, you think someone should buy a car they really don't like just because the numbers look better?

No, a decision can be both rational and emotional. And buying a car that you don't like has nothing to do with being rational, that's being stupid (unless it's the best you can afford, which is another story completely).

Quote

QuoteSo, iffy, you don't think emotion should play any part in the car buying process? So, you think someone should buy a car they really don't like just because the numbers look better?

No, a decision can be both rational and emotional. And buying a car that you don't like has nothing to do with being rational, that's being stupid (unless it's the best you can afford, which is another story completely).

Exactly, being completely rational will lead you to a car that you don't like.

Not at all. How is spending thousands of dollars on something that you don't like a rational decision?

QuoteNot at all. How is spending thousands of dollars on something that you don't like a rational decision?

Buting being totally rational could result in you buying a car that you don't like. For example, suppose I have $22000 to spend on a midsize mainstreamer. From the numbers the Accord would make more sense, it gets best in class fuel economy, is quiet, has a smooth ride and has an immaculate reliability history. So, if I was totally rational that would be the car I would get. However, I don't like that car nearly as much as the 6 or Legacy.  

That's being rational about it. You look at the factors of a vehicle that you're most interested in, and choose based on that.

QuoteThat's being rational about it. You look at the factors of a vehicle that you're most interested in, and choose based on that.

What if one of the factors that I am most interested in is emotional appeal?

You're looking at emotional appeal as a rational factor.

Yes, but something rational can't be emotional.  

Of course it can. If you rationally decide that you could only enjoy a $25,000 purchase that has emotion, you're being rational about it.

From dictionary.com:
"rational:  Consistent with or based on reason; logical:"

If emotion is in direct conflict with reason than you can't make a rational decision and end up with the car you want.  

Is it logical to spend $25,000 on a car that you don't like? No. If you want some sort of emotion to make a vehicle choice worthy of your $25K, it's only logical to buy a vehicle with emotional aspects to it.

But that decision wouldn't be based on reason, it would be based on emotion and therefore wouldn't be rational.  

QuoteIs it logical to spend $25,000 on a car that you don't like? No. If you want some sort of emotion to make a vehicle choice worthy of your $25K, it's only logical to buy a vehicle with emotional aspects to it.

I agree with that. I've looked at cars that were sensible choices, and reasonably priced, but if you can't connect with the car at all, or something about it just isn't likable to you, it's not logical to buy it.

TBR, just answer this: Do you consider it logical to buy a car that you don't like?

No, I wouldn't which is my whole point. A completely rational decision would be based completely on reason, but emotion isn't a rational, logical, or reasonable thing.  

But if it's something that you rationally decide that you want in a car (not just buying on the spot simply because something about it catches you), it is as rational of a factor to include in a rational vehicle purpose as seat comfort, handling, or price.

QuoteNo, I wouldn't which is my whole point. A completely rational decision would be based completely on reason, but emotion isn't a rational, logical, or reasonable thing.

You guys are going to go back and forth on this all day I have a feeling, but I agree that it is not logical to buy something that you don't like. If it isn't logical to buy something because of an emotional feeling, then emotion and logic can be connected.

By the definition of rational something emotional can't be rational. I understand your point, but your contradicting the definition of rational and, in the process, your original comment.  

QuoteBy the definition of rational something emotional can't be rational. I understand your point, but your contradicting the definition of rational and, in the process, your original comment.

My definition of something rational would be something that you thoroughly think through and decide makes sense. If you thoroughly think through the idea of preferring a car with emotion, recognizing its benefits and downsides, and still decide that it makes sense to buy a car with emotion over something that looks better on the spec sheet, then it's a rational decision.

Fine, but it can't be a fully rational decision because it was partly based on emotion.  

As long as emotion is treated rationally, that's not a problem. ;)

Just joined the subscriber-only Consumer Reports forums, this article was posted there and was read by at least one CR editor. :praise:

QuoteJust joined the subscriber-only Consumer Reports forums, this article was posted there and was read by at least one CR editor. :praise:

How do you know that?

Because he posted in the thread about it.  

QuoteBecause he posted in the thread about it.

What was his comment?

His response was directed at the topic starter, who basically used it as "evidence" that all Toyota/Honda owners were biased liars and that the reason Hondas and Toyotas always do so well in CR reliability surveys was that the owners always lie. :D

The editor's response to these claims:

QuoteSo, based on one story by one writer talking to one car shopper, you extrapolate that to every Camry and Accord owner?

There are Japanese car owners who post here who are furious about the problems that they have - are they a minority, the only ones who can "honestly" fill out the survey?  As you and other writers on this forum show, CR readers can be brutally critical.

Like you and the writer of that article, we believe that readers should review the data out there and pick the vehicle that best fits their needs.

Tom Mutchler, CR Auto Test Engineer

QuoteHis response was directed at the topic starter, who basically used it as "evidence" that all Toyota/Honda owners were biased liars and that the reason Hondas and Toyotas always do so well in CR reliability surveys was that the owners always lie. :D

The editor's response to these claims:

QuoteSo, based on one story by one writer talking to one car shopper, you extrapolate that to every Camry and Accord owner?

There are Japanese car owners who post here who are furious about the problems that they have - are they a minority, the only ones who can "honestly" fill out the survey?? As you and other writers on this forum show, CR readers can be brutally critical.

Like you and the writer of that article, we believe that readers should review the data out there and pick the vehicle that best fits their needs.

Tom Mutchler, CR Auto Test Engineer

Not bad :D