Mazda is unveiling this at the Tokyo Auto Show next month...
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--kbKRLPIL--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1453323959367964842.jpg)
As part of their agreement with Toyota to sell the Mazda2 as a Scion, Mazda will sell a variant of the FR-S/BRZ, dubbed the MX-4.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 30, 2015, 08:13:39 AM
Mazda is unveiling this at the Tokyo Auto Show next month...
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--kbKRLPIL--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1453323959367964842.jpg)
It doesn't look long enough but Mazda did announce last year that they would be selling a two door version of the 6.
Quote from: CLKid on September 30, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
It doesn't look long enough but Mazda did announce last year that they would be selling a two door version of the 6.
Those aren't FWD proportions at all.
I'm hoping RX7 but I don't think Mazda has been dumping resources into rotary development...
Well there's no separation of the side glass, so it's definitely just a mock-up. But exciting just the same.
OH DEAR GAWD PLEASE BE A ROTARY
"Okay, as much as Mazda's announcement that it is showing off a mysterious "sports car concept" at the Tokyo auto show desperately cries out for someone, anyone to label the car the next RX-7, there's no evidence to support that. Sure, the shadowy picture certainly appears to show a car that's larger than the MX-5 Miata, and its taillights could echo those of the third-generation RX-7. But that's only speculation.
Or maybe it's not.
Mazda's own CEO seemed to indicate no work on a rotary-powered sports car was underway last year, but maybe things have changed, and just look at the concept! It's long, low, and has the potential to be impossibly gorgeous. From our limited perspective, the mystery show car resembles the result of a tryst between the Maserati Alfieri and the Miata. But that's not necessarily a surprise, as every vehicle Mazda's designers have turned out in the past three years has been attractive.
What's perhaps less obvious is that Mazda continues to work on the rotary engine, toiling away on the smooth-running, high-revving, pistonless powerplant design to make it return decent fuel economy and emissions. Have the company's notoriously clever engineers finally figured out a way? Could this stunning concept car be the vessel to carry the rotary into the 21st century? Will we ever stop speculating about the RX-7's resurrection? The answers to these questions may come as soon as the 2015 Tokyo show next month."
"Mazda has been teasing us about a new RX-7 for years, to the point where many of us are too skeptical to be strung along on these rumors anymore. Yes, 2017 marks the RX-7's 40th birthday, and yes, 2020 marks Mazda's 100th anniversary. It's true: these are times as good as any to revive a legend.
Mazda announced today that it will be showcasing a brand-new sports car concept at the Tokyo Motor Show later this month. There's a teaser photo of it, above, though it really doesn't provide much information. The low, flat beltline recalls that of the Subaru BRZ/Toyota GT86/Scion FR-S, which could possibly point to a front-engine rear-drive sports car.
The company claims to have attempted to keep as closely to its lineage as possible with this new design. Mazda's sports car history will also play an integral part of the design. While you could imagine these details to match that of an RX-7 successor, that could also be said of a new Miata MX-5. And Mazda has said no words about what sort of engine will be under the hood. Will it be a rotary? A SkyActiv? A SkyActiv Rotary? We just don't know.
Last month, Mazda stated that it was still working on developing the rotary engine to bring it up to par with piston engines. This was also exciting news, but since RX-7 revival rumors have always existed in the realm of the subjective, we're waiting for an actual car with an actual rotary engine before we get too excited about this one."
Strong Cosrmo lineage in the greenhouse
Im not investing any emotions in this though. Remember the NSX
From EVO...
"While it seems every carmaker is focusing its efforts on developing crossovers and SUVs, we're pleased to report that Mazda has revealed it'll be bringing something far more evo-friendly to the Tokyo motor show. Though we've just a shadowy teaser image to go by for now, it looks as though the Japanese carmaker has been working on a new concept sports car.
The picture we've been provided with reveals little more than a sleek roofline and coupe-like body, but the news does get better. Because if Mazda's hints are to be taken literally, this new sports car could be powered by a rotary engine – so that means we could be looking at a lightweight, rev-hungry sports car. Exciting stuff.
Unsurprisingly there are no technical specifications as of yet, though the carmaker has at least confirmed the new concept will embody its lineage. And with cars like the involving RX-7 and balanced MX-5 part of that ancestry, it bodes very well for a new Mazda halo car.
If it makes production, the concept could essentially be a successor to the RX-8 (pictured above) - Mazda's last rotary engined production car – which was produced up until 2012. That car's 1.3-litre twin-chamber rotary engine produced a healthy 228bhp at 8200rpm, but admittedly, its thirst for fuel and increasingly stringent emissions regulations ensured its demise.
We'll know more about the new concept when it makes its debut at Mazda's Tokyo motor show press conference on 28 October. The car will be revealed alongside a legend of Mazda's history, the Cosmo Sport 110S (pictured directly above), which was the Japanese carmaker's first ever mass-produced rotary engined car – which only serves to cement our suspicions for the new concept's powertrain.
If they actually release a new rotary, sign me up.
Quote from: MrH on September 30, 2015, 10:08:19 AM
If they actually release a new rotary, sign me up.
Me too. By the time this thing comes out I'll be in a position to buy a new car, provided this isn't over $50k and doesn't come with electric hybrid assist and a DCT only transmission.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2015, 09:34:37 AM
Strong Cosrmo lineage in the greenhouse
Im not investing any emotions in this though. Remember the NSX
Yeah, but the NSX is Honda design... this is Mazda design, and they're on a roll. As for hybrid assist, a rotary hybrid sounds interesting... and logical. It solves the efficiency issue, and a small ~1 litre, 9000 rpm rotary boosted with an electric motor might be pretty cool.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 30, 2015, 10:22:13 AM
Yeah, but the NSX is Honda design... this is Mazda design, and they're on a roll. As for hybrid assist, a rotary hybrid sounds interesting... and logical. It solves the efficiency issue, and a small ~1 litre, 9000 rpm rotary boosted with an electric motor might be pretty cool.
Ew, no thanks.
Quote from: MrH on September 30, 2015, 10:08:19 AM
If they actually release a new rotary, sign me up.
Could a rotary be good enough for current and future EPA regulations?
Quote from: thecarnut on September 30, 2015, 10:26:33 AM
Ew, no thanks.
Why not? Such a setup would be efficient and jet turbine smooth.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 30, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
Why not? Such a setup would be efficient and jet turbine smooth.
tcn runs w/no cat and a straight pipe because racecar :lol:
I think a rotary hybrid with displacement on demand and maybe even turbocharging would be pretty cool. But that sounds like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Mazda doesn't have the scratch to develop a hybrid system. DoD could work though. That would enable them to go big. Bring back the 4 rotor.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2015, 10:42:02 AM
tcn runs w/no cat and a straight pipe because racecar :lol:
:lol:
But yes, I like a car as simple as possible. No extra electric motors, no heavy batteries, etc.
I want a Wankel engine fed by a Wankel compressor as a supercharger.
Agh, the silhouette looks amazing but kind of peniscar-like. Want, in a strange way. :\
A rotary powered BRZ would be lovely.
Quote from: MX793 on September 30, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
I want a Wankel engine fed by a Wankel compressor as a supercharger.
Please make this real. I will invest.
Quote from: Laconian on September 30, 2015, 10:58:31 AM
Agh, the silhouette looks amazing but kind of peniscar-like. Want, in a strange way. :\
Great... the Miata is feminine, and this looks like a big shiny dick. Lovely.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 30, 2015, 11:22:56 AM
A rotary powered BRZ would be lovely.
Just you typing that sentence alone has cost the BRZ a couple thousand sales this year.
RX8 seems like it was close to that concept. Too bad it was a maintenance nightmare
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2015, 12:38:07 PM
Just you typing that sentence alone has cost the BRZ a couple thousand sales this year.
RX8 seems like it was close to that concept. Too bad it was a maintenance nightmare
It wasn't/isn't so much a nightmare for owners who know what they have, and understand and respect the nuances of the car. Terrible car to buy used if the original owner was a thudfuck.
(http://media.tumblr.com/bbc90ee763272519e4424501c6c0347c/tumblr_inline_mrsgwsfg5h1qz4rgp.gif)
Mazda is pretty much the frontrunner when it comes to attainable japanese performance. Whether its a brz clone or the next rx, I'm sure it will be THE best car for the enthusiast in its price range.
That said, I hope its the next rx.
The proportions are too different for it to have anything to do with the Toyobarus.
Mazda jumps in on the joint venture between Toyota and BMW
(http://image.automobilemag.com/f/39529854+w1000+h667+q80+re0/2013-scion-frs-rear-three-quarters-black.jpg)
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--kbKRLPIL--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1453323959367964842.jpg)
Quote from: 68_427 on October 01, 2015, 05:29:46 AM
Mazda jumps in on the joint venture between Toyota and BMW
That would put it above $60,000. I hope not.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 01, 2015, 05:33:25 AM
That would put it above $60,000. I hope not.
I'm sure Mazda could take the platform a different direction and produce less of a GT car, and undercut the Toyota handily.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 01, 2015, 05:26:10 AM
The proportions are too different for it to have anything to do with the Toyobarus.
I am surprised they didn't make it ribbed for her pleasure.
Quote from: MX793 on September 30, 2015, 08:23:28 AM
As part of their agreement with Toyota to sell the Mazda2 as a Scion, Mazda will sell a variant of the FR-S/BRZ, dubbed the MX-4.
Really? That's both disappointing and exciting at the same time.
Quote from: Raza on October 01, 2015, 09:59:35 AM
Really? That's both disappointing and exciting at the same time.
No, not really. He's joking.
Cool, but it's probably just fiberglass over clay vaporware at this point
Quote from: 2o6 on October 01, 2015, 10:19:35 AM
Cool, but it's probably just fiberglass over clay vaporware at this point
No doubt the showcar is probably a FG mockup. That isn't necessarily representative of the progress of the actual car though. For all we know, years of R&D have already been invested, testing carried out, final design signed off, and production is within 2 years away. Let's see how it unfolds.
A straight BRZ clone would be super disappointing. Do we really need another badge on the same car?
Quote from: BimmerM3 on October 02, 2015, 10:32:13 AM
A straight BRZ clone would be super disappointing. Do we really need another badge on the same car?
It has nothing to do with the Toyobaru twins. As illustrated above in the pics of the FRS and Mazda sportscar, the proportions are different. The Mazda is lower, with a longer front end, no front fender bulges, different greenhouse, etc etc.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 02, 2015, 10:44:51 AM
It has nothing to do with the Toyobaru twins. As illustrated above in the pics of the FRS and Mazda sportscar, the proportions are different. The Mazda is lower, with a longer front end, no front fender bulges, different greenhouse, etc etc.
Oh, I know. I was just saying that it'd be a stupid idea anyway.
Hmmm... this is getting interesting. A rotary engine with a capacitor-based hybrid KERS style booster and turbocharging for a rumoured 450 hp total. :drool:
http://jalopnik.com/that-mysterious-mazda-sports-car-concept-might-just-hav-1736908069 (http://jalopnik.com/that-mysterious-mazda-sports-car-concept-might-just-hav-1736908069)
Lol, is that Teuton in the comments section, with insider information? :lol:
Big things
HCCI? IDK bro this is sounding very sci fi. Other stuff sounds good though, could be a test bed for new tech for Mazda.
The rotary motor is actually a perfect candidate for a kers or other similar type of hybrid system that would supplement torque and slower speed driving. It would probably be the only way to make a new rotary able to pass emissions standards and have somewhat decent looking EPA FE figures.
I think it would be great.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 16, 2015, 10:57:01 AM
The rotary motor is actually a perfect candidate for a kers or other similar type of hybrid system that would supplement torque and slower speed driving. It would probably be the only way to make a new rotary able to pass emissions standards and have somewhat decent looking EPA FE figures.
I think it would be great.
Exactly. I see it as the perfect hybrid matchup. The big worry though, is what's it gonna cost.
My Speculation or dream, and I know I'll catch hell for this but.
1.0L Turbocharged Rotary motor with 250-300HP with a 100ish HP(or more important 150ish ftlbs) hybrid system.
Rear wheel drive
2 doors, 2 seats Coupe
<2900lbs curb weight
and a 7 speed dual clutch transmission :mask:
40-45K base price.
I'd be a buyer.
As for the transmission choice, I really believe that integrating multi drive systems together and giving the MAXIMUM benefit and seamless implementation would require something that is able to be intregrated in with the computer control system. IE automated manual.
If it doesn't have a traditional manual transmission, I don't care for it.
If they are going to put a manual in it i'd prefer a traditional non hybrid drivetrain.
I'd be fine with that.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 16, 2015, 12:12:31 PM
If it doesn't have a traditional manual transmission, I don't care for it.
Your miata has synchronizers. Yes/no?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 16, 2015, 12:17:06 PM
Your miata has synchronizers. Yes/no?
Yes, but I double clutch, not granny shift, like I should.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 16, 2015, 12:16:55 PM
If they are going to put a manual in it i'd prefer a traditional non hybrid drivetrain.
I'd be fine with that.
Me too, but that's not going to happen.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 16, 2015, 12:21:59 PM
Yes, but I double clutch, not granny shift, like I should.
You're lucky you haven't blown the welds on the intake.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 16, 2015, 12:38:38 PM
You're lucky you haven't blown the welds on the intake.
Bitches don't know bout my AEM cold air intake. Keeps my intake welds nice and cool.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 16, 2015, 12:52:20 PM
Bitches don't know bout my AEM cold air intake. Keeps my intake welds nice and cool.
You need to spray methanol directly onto the outside of your intake. The evaporative cooling will be amazing, but it may also burst into flames.
400+ HP <3000lb sports car? Value of stickshift in such a car is debatable IMO. I would prefer one but I can understand and appreciate why they wouldn't put one in.
I still think a lifesaver for rotaries will be more rotors with DoD. One of the big problems with rotaries is all the surface area. OK, so low loads you reduce the surface area by taking some rotors out of play. I feel like the tech is there now.
Rotaries don't have valves. Those are kind of essential to DoD unless you're OK with pumping losses associated with driving a dead rotor.
The issue always seemed to be fuel consumption and emissions. Smaller displacement coupled with a hybrid system would.solve most.of the issues.
They can add very simple valves to close off individual rotors.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 17, 2015, 10:20:23 AM
The issue always seemed to be fuel consumption and emissions. Smaller displacement coupled with a hybrid system would.solve most.of the issues.
Adding a turbo effectively increases the displacement, and the emissions.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 10:29:43 AM
They can add very simple valves to close off individual rotors.
What? How?
The issue with rotaries has always been inefficient combustion. You have a non ideal combustion shaped chamber. Mazda sounds like they're going down the right path: they need pin point precision on fuel delivery and spark for this to ever have a chance.
If they're trying to get to HCCI in the sky active engines, they've got a fighting chance to make this work.
I don't know if a butterfly valve could withstand the heat and pressure of combustion.
Float like a butterfly, sting like bee.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 12:01:31 PM
Have u heard of a butterfly valve?
Yeah. I can't even imagine how that's supposed to come close to working.
Sporty just throws out weird ideas/suggestions like they can just be implemented like it isn't a big deal.
YES!!!
The Tokyo Motor Show kicks off this week and all eyes are on Mazda, anticipating the sports car concept they've been teasing with a shadowy image for weeks now. And guess what? Despite our (completely justified) initial skepticism, the car will indeed have a rotary engine after all. Holy crap.
I'm so excited right now, my brain just blew its own apex seals.
This news comes from the UK's Autocar, quoting the company's head of research and development Kiyoshi Fujiwara:
Speaking to Autocar, Fujiwara said: "People think rotary can not meet modern Eco demands. The SkyActiv engineers worked on rotary and have it cutting edge tech. It is an essential part of our DNA and it just be passed onto future engineers. It is synonymous with the brand. Some time in the future it will return and be called SkyActiv-R."
SkyActiv-R! That makes sense and is good and wonderful. Mazda's own president and CEO, a guy who just a few years ago seemed dismissive of the rotary, added this about the concept:
Mazda president and CEO Masamichi Kogai said: "It is a two-door, two-seater. It is a pure sports car design. We have MX-5 and another icon is a rotary sports car. We haven't talked about market reach but this would be in that segment." Mazda design boss Ikuo Maeda added that the concept "represents our dream, but we don't want it to be a dream too long."
Kogai added "the targets are strict, rotary engines have lots of issues, and we need to solve each of them," but alluded to the possibility of production within a few years.
Hey, that's awesome news. Fans of spinning triangles have waited a long time for the return of an engine very central to Mazda's heritage, and this time they may just be able to nail it right.
I can't wait to see the full concept at Tokyo this week.
:dance: :dance: :dance:
Now they just need to green-light it for production.
2 doors, 2 seats, fixed roof, rotary engine.
This just might be the one, I hope they name it RX7 too.
SO SO CITED!!!
Changed thread title to something more appropriate. This is indeed exciting.
Can't wait, if this turns out well I might be a buyer. I hope mazda does what they should have done, and picks up where the FD left off and pushes the RX even further towards the pure sports car end of the spectrum. I'd say the 2 seats is a good sign with regards to that.
I hope they can keep it under 3K too, a curb weight in the 2800-2900 lb range would be awesome.
Yeah, I'm just worried about the price. If this is $50k+, it'll be too much for just a toy. If they can make a 2 seater rotary for under $40k, I'm in.
I feel like that Rotary could be amortized for something like a Range Extender on an EV car.
A rotary would be sweet for a range extender
I'm interested in this car just because I think it's cool. But I don't think I'll ever buy one as it'll be priced outta my league I think. And it has a roof. Unless I have a shit ton of money or never have kids, I couldn't swing a Miata and this.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 27, 2015, 09:05:34 AM
Can't wait, if this turns out well I might be a buyer. I hope mazda does what they should have done, and picks up where the FD left off and pushes the RX even further towards the pure sports car end of the spectrum. I'd say the 2 seats is a good sign with regards to that.
I hope they can keep it under 3K too, a curb weight in the 2800-2900 lb range would be awesome.
Given the teaser pic, and given it's Mazda, I think all that is pretty realistic. Like H said, the big decider will be price. With the Miata covering the $30k region, I'm going to guess $45k.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 27, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
I feel like that Rotary could be amortized for something like a Range Extender on an EV car.
A rotary would be a horrible range extender.
Diesel is best range extender.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
A rotary would be a horrible range extender.
Rotaries work really well at constant RPM's; this isn't a new idea and is being tested by other companies...
They're also super compact.
Besides, I think one of the Audi E Tron concepts uses a rotary range extender
Quote from: MrH on October 17, 2015, 01:16:53 PM
Yeah. I can't even imagine how that's supposed to come close to working.
Have you ever heard of displacement on demand?
Quote from: 2o6 on October 27, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
I feel like that Rotary could be amortized for something like a Range Extender on an EV car.
Amortized! I was looking for that word earlier.
I dont know about the range extender stuff. I think Mazda can use this as a test bed for tech that carries over to piston engines. Turbos, hybrid assist/KERS,
displacement on demand.... I think they will need to throw the kitchen sink at this thing to get it to pass emissions. Then whatever they learn can be implemented on their gas engines in the future. Instead of the 2.5, maybe the 2.0 with an electric turbo, and if necessary light hybrid assist. Etc. I don't see Mazda doing PHEVs.
The price actually doesn't concern me, I'm realistic when it comes to that.
Mazda isn't going to offer a sub 30K rotary sports car. I'm fine with that, if they can hit a price point of 35-37K for the base area and myabe just a shade over 40 for a well speced model, I think they will have plenty of buyers. More importantly I think that price will afford them the ability to make this car much better than it would be if they chased after an unrealistically low base price.
Dieser rotrary... mmm very goood, efficient mashreen.
The other reason the price doesn't worry me is because this is mazda. Which means that chassis and suspension dynamics will be TOP NOTCH, with ample power and good exterior design(both of which I feel they are capable of) coupled with their current level of interior design(fantastic, IMO). This thing will probably be the best drivers car short of some really spendy metal.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 27, 2015, 11:21:55 AM
The price actually doesn't concern me, I'm realistic when it comes to that.
Mazda isn't going to offer a sub 30K rotary sports car. I'm fine with that, if they can hit a price point of 35-37K for the base area and myabe just a shade over 40 for a well speced model, I think they will have plenty of buyers. More importantly I think that price will afford them the ability to make this car much better than it would be if they chased after an unrealistically low base price.
I dunno, wasn't the RX-7 like $50k back in the '90's? I'd realistically expect this thing to be at least $50k.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 27, 2015, 11:21:55 AM
The price actually doesn't concern me, I'm realistic when it comes to that.
Mazda isn't going to offer a sub 30K rotary sports car. I'm fine with that, if they can hit a price point of 35-37K for the base area and myabe just a shade over 40 for a well speced model, I think they will have plenty of buyers. More importantly I think that price will afford them the ability to make this car much better than it would be if they chased after an unrealistically low base price.
They've already got a running concept and IIRC a few test vehicles driving around Japan
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/10/mazda-mazda2-phev-rotary-engine-range-extender/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/10/mazda-mazda2-phev-rotary-engine-range-extender/)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 11:16:41 AM
Have you ever heard of displacement on demand?
Issues with implementing on a Wankel:
1. No valves normally in the design to seal off the rotor chamber
2. Rotaries rely on oil mixed with incoming fuel for lubricating the apex seals. If you shut off the rotor, where does the lubrication come from?
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
I dunno, wasn't the RX-7 like $50k back in the '90's? I'd realistically expect this thing to be at least $50k.
So was the 300ZX and Supra... all were optimistically overpriced and the entire segment died by the mid-90s as a result. The resurrection began with the 350Z being reborn in the early 00s with a $15K lower starting point.
Quote from: MX793 on October 27, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
Issues with implementing on a Wankel:
1. No valves normally in the design to seal off the rotor chamber
2. Rotaries rely on oil mixed with incoming fuel for lubricating the apex seals. If you shut off the rotor, where does the lubrication come from?
O boy. Things are coming into focus now. I was going to say, OK, just collect the oil, but I'm guessing it goes right out the tailpipe.... hence the high oil consumption and emissions. Maybe they have gone to roller bearings for apex seals? IDK man.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 27, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
So was the 300ZX and Supra... all were optimistically overpriced and the entire segment died by the mid-90s as a result. The resurrection began with the 350Z being reborn in the early 00s with a $15K lower starting point.
They weren't that overpriced when they came out. What sent their prices into orbit was the crash of the yen. Same thing happened in Germany. That is why Japanese and German cars got so decontented and under-engineered during the late 90s. These cars were brought on by bubbles. ~83-95 was a mega anomaly in the auto world... we probably got about 20-30 years worth of development over that period.
In any case, I too see this thing being in the high 40s low 50s. Mid to high 30s is ambitious considering the hella conventional Miata hits the low 30s, with a Mazda 3 base engine and like no sound insulation lol. They will probably aim just enough to cover some of its R&D, which will mean pricing will be ambitious enough to be profitable at low volume.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 11:48:14 AM
O boy. Things are coming into focus now. I was going to say, OK, just collect the oil, but I'm guessing it goes right out the tailpipe.... hence the high oil consumption and emissions. Maybe they have gone to roller bearings for apex seals? IDK man.
They weren't that overpriced when they came out. What sent their prices into orbit was the crash of the yen. Same thing happened in Germany. That is why Japanese and German cars got so decontented and under-engineered during the late 90s. These cars were brought on by bubbles. ~83-95 was a mega anomaly in the auto world... we probably got about 20-30 years worth of development over that period.
In any case, I too see this thing being in the high 40s low 50s. Mid to high 30s is ambitious considering the hella conventional Miata hits the low 30s, with a Mazda 3 base engine and like no sound insulation lol. They will probably aim just enough to cover some of its R&D, which will mean pricing will be ambitious enough to be profitable at low volume.
Good points.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 27, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
So was the 300ZX and Supra... all were optimistically overpriced and the entire segment died by the mid-90s as a result. The resurrection began with the 350Z being reborn in the early 00s with a $15K lower starting point.
Except that the 350Z came out 7 years after the 300ZX was discontinued in the US ('96-'03), so not a huge amount of inflation in that time period. $50k in '96 is like $75k today, so even if this new RX is $50k it's still $25k cheaper than an equivalent FD RX-7.
Granted, the 350/370Z was/is very cheap. 370's start at $30k, but that uses an engine shared with a ton of different cars. This thing is going to have a bespoke (at least for now) engine, and as Sporty said, a Miata hits $33-35k easily. No way they're not pricing this at least $10k more, more like $15k realistically.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 11:48:14 AM
O boy. Things are coming into focus now. I was going to say, OK, just collect the oil, but I'm guessing it goes right out the tailpipe.... hence the high oil consumption and emissions. Maybe they have gone to roller bearings for apex seals? IDK man.
Apex seals are the piston rings in a rotary engine. Not sure how you use roller bearings there.
And yes, the lubrication oil for the seals is consumed and blown out the tailpipe. Continuing to inject oil into a deactivated rotor risks buildup and potential sparkplug fouling if left running that way too long.
Quote from: MX793 on October 27, 2015, 12:52:14 PM
Apex seals are the piston rings in a rotary engine. Not sure how you use roller bearings there.
And yes, the lubrication oil for the seals is consumed and blown out the tailpipe. Continuing to inject oil into a deactivated rotor risks buildup and potential sparkplug fouling if left running that way too long.
I mean they do DoD in piston engines and those need oil all the time too.
Another idea, which is the nuclear option, would be to couple and decouple rotors with clutches and dogteeth. Have 2 or 3 rotors and take them completely on/offline as needed. No pumping losses or lubrication issues and the dogteeth could be arranged so it would only mesh 1 way. Pretty crazy idea but then so is the rotary engine.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 01:07:35 PM
I mean they do DoD in piston engines and those need oil all the time too.
Another idea, which is the nuclear option, would be to couple and decouple rotors with clutches and dogteeth. Have 2 or 3 rotors and take them completely on/offline as needed. No pumping losses or lubrication issues and the dogteeth could be arranged so it would only mesh 1 way. Pretty crazy idea but then so is the rotary engine.
Piston engines don't receive their oil lubrication through the fuel...
Piston engines get oil from the bottom end which is dragged up into the cylinder by the piston (2-strokes excluded).
So rotaries are basically 2 strokes? Yea this is not happening
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 04:17:01 PM
So rotaries are basically 2 strokes? Yea this is not happening
While technically a "4 stroke" cycle, they have a number of commonalities with 2-strokes.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 04:17:01 PM
So rotaries are basically 2 strokes? Yea this is not happening
Lol so you were suggesting that they do all this crazy stuff like displacement on demand and dog-teeth engaged rotors without knowing how a rotary works? :lol: :wtf:
Lol, I swear sporty. Sometimes I really question if you've got an engineering degree and actually like cars :lol:
STFU GUYS IT'S STARTED
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
Lol so you were suggesting that they do all this crazy stuff like displacement on demand and dog-teeth engaged rotors without knowing how a rotary works? :lol: :wtf:
Quote from: MrH on October 27, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
Lol, I swear sporty. Sometimes I really question if you've got an engineering degree and actually like cars :lol:
Wow, harsh crowd...
Good job Mazda. :clap:
:wub:
Greenhouse seems too small for the car. Has Camaro-esque gunslit windows. Otherwise, it kind of reminds me of an AMG GT-S.
Quote from: MX793 on October 27, 2015, 05:53:11 PM
Greenhouse seems too small for the car. Has Camaro-esque gunslit windows. Otherwise, it kind of reminds me of an AMG GT-S.
Yeah, the wheels are giant and the windows are too small, but I'm hoping those will be fixed for production. I'm not a huge fan of the headlights but I think those will be toned down a bit for production as well. I love the rest of the car though. I'm just hoping Mazda doesn't drop the ball on the weight or doesn't just offer it with a DCT or some shit.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 05:58:34 PM
Yeah, the wheels are giant and the windows are too small, but I'm hoping those will be fixed for production. I'm not a huge fan of the headlights but I think those will be toned down a bit for production as well. I love the rest of the car though. I'm just hoping Mazda doesn't drop the ball on the weight or doesn't just offer it with a DCT or some shit.
They'll do one better and only offer it in Japan and Europe in very limited quantities.
Am i missing some updated info that you guys are looking at?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 27, 2015, 06:59:02 PM
Am i missing some updated info that you guys are looking at?
Google "RX-Vision" or go to any of the major auto mag websites.
Ya, just checked it out. Looks good to me, toned down a bit for production and I think it will look good. Might have to start setting aside a few bucks for a down payment fund.
Thats a lot of room between the front wheels and cowl, lots of room
You could probably fit a 4 rotor in there.......dare to dream.
Quote from: MX793 on October 27, 2015, 05:44:48 PM
Wow, harsh crowd...
They are telling on themselves more than anything. Light work.
Unless Mazda has figured out how to keep the rotors lubricated without consuming the oil there is just no way this thing will work.
NSX is better
Wow, you guys are really getting your hopes up for this. I'd be more cautious......
(https://system.inbound-cloud.pl/uploads/article/images/imported_16163838f25939b85d23d17e57c795c7.png)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 07:46:58 PM
They are telling on themselves more than anything. Light work.
Unless Mazda has figured out how to keep the rotors lubricated without consuming the oil there is just no way this thing will work.
Why, because we call you out on your improbable and laughable ideas?
Gee, I wonder why I never venture into the politics threads...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 07:46:58 PM
They are telling on themselves more than anything. Light work.
Unless Mazda has figured out how to keep the rotors lubricated without consuming the oil there is just no way this thing will work.
Why does it have to have DoD? Did Mazda say it would?
Quote from: MX793 on October 27, 2015, 08:56:35 PM
Why does it have to have DoD? Did Mazda say it would?
It doesn't have to have DoD. However I can't imagine oil consumption on the level of a 2 stroke passing any modern emissions standards.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 08:47:05 PM
Why, because we call you out on your improbable and laughable ideas?
Gee, I wonder why I never venture into the politics threads...
You guys are just dogpiling and playing stupid. What have I suggested that is so improbable? And you don't venture into politics because you are too scared.
Just add more rotors and more oil. Apex seals aren't much of a problem, anymore. Need to add more emissions control crap.
I was hoping for something closer to production. Still, it's exciting that the rotary sportscar from Mazda is alive and well. :dance:
I feel like it'd be smart of Mazda to join the Toyota/BMW partnership and Mazda can cover the low end by offering a more basic, sporty version of the platform to keep development costs down.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/930/3/S3679303/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-007-1.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/930/8/S3679308/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-011-1.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/929/7/S3679297/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-002-1.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 09:10:16 PM
You guys are just dogpiling and playing stupid. What have I suggested that is so improbable? And you don't venture into politics because you are too scared.
Two people is dogpiling? Sorry you're so sensitive, man.
Oh and also, you seem very certain that DoD would work on a rotary, even after multiple people (not just Mike and me) were telling you it wouldn't work:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2015, 10:42:02 AM
DoD could work though. That would enable them to go big. Bring back the 4 rotor.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 07:51:29 AM
I still think a lifesaver for rotaries will be more rotors with DoD. One of the big problems with rotaries is all the surface area. OK, so low loads you reduce the surface area by taking some rotors out of play. I feel like the tech is there now.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 10:29:43 AM
They can add very simple valves to close off individual rotors.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 12:01:31 PM
Have u heard of a butterfly valve?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 11:16:41 AM
Have you ever heard of displacement on demand?
Then you show that you don't even know how a rotary works by suggesting they use roller bearings in place of apex seals :confused: :
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 11:48:14 AM
O boy. Things are coming into focus now. I was going to say, OK, just collect the oil, but I'm guessing it goes right out the tailpipe.... hence the high oil consumption and emissions. Maybe they have gone to roller bearings for apex seals? IDK man.
And I guess you don't know how piston engines work either:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 01:07:35 PM
I mean they do DoD in piston engines and those need oil all the time too.
Another idea, which is the nuclear option, would be to couple and decouple rotors with clutches and dogteeth. Have 2 or 3 rotors and take them completely on/offline as needed. No pumping losses or lubrication issues and the dogteeth could be arranged so it would only mesh 1 way. Pretty crazy idea but then so is the rotary engine.
But when you're called out for not knowing what you're talking about, you get butthurt and make it about us.
Whatever man, I'm not going to drag this out more than I have. Keep telling yourself you're right. :huh:
Knock it off with the drama.
Anywho, I wonder how close to production this interior is:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5e2wyfEL--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1493098202794769988.jpg)
Looks clean, but I can't tell if that's a manual or automatic. Shifter looks like it could be either (it does remind me of the 6MT Volvo S60R/V70R), but there is only one gigantic pedal in sight, which makes me think it's an auto/DCT, but there are no paddles on the steering wheel (no airbag either).
:popcorn:
I wouldn't try to read into anything regarding the interior of the concept. We all know it'll look like the one in the Miata.
Yeah, there's no HVAC or infotainment system. I am just hoping it doesn't have the same tacked on screen all the other Mazdas are getting.
I love that interior
Quote from: 68_427 on October 27, 2015, 10:00:17 PM
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/930/3/S3679303/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-007-1.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/930/8/S3679308/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-011-1.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/367/929/7/S3679297/slug/l/mazda-rx-vision-concept-002-1.jpg)
Either that car is huge, or that roofline will keep anybody over about five feet tall from fitting into it.
Sexy, yes; but in that color what wouldn't be?
(http://i.imgur.com/Vxrw24S.jpg)
Yep, five footers.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2015, 09:10:16 PM
It doesn't have to have DoD. However I can't imagine oil consumption on the level of a 2 stroke passing any modern emissions standards.
Emissions standards for hydrocarbons and NOx are set in ppm. DoD will have limited effect. It will reduce total output, but not the proportion. DoD is done more for fuel mileage than as an emissions control.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 28, 2015, 03:16:26 AM
Yep, five footers.
Maybe the seating position is very reclined like in a dragster. That would explain some of the proportions.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 10:03:36 PM
Two people is dogpiling? Sorry you're so sensitive, man.
Oh and also, you seem very certain that DoD would work on a rotary, even after multiple people (not just Mike and me) were telling you it wouldn't work:
Then you show that you don't even know how a rotary works by suggesting they use roller bearings in place of apex seals :confused: :
And I guess you don't know how piston engines work either:
But when you're called out for not knowing what you're talking about, you get butthurt and make it about us.
Whatever man, I'm not going to drag this out more than I have. Keep telling yourself you're right. :huh:
Only other person who disagreed was MX973 and he did all you guys homework for you. Neither of you know what you are talking about either. But w/e, back to the rotary pipe dream.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 28, 2015, 04:25:12 AM
Only other person who disagreed was MX973 and he did all you guys homework for you. Neither of you know what you are talking about either. But w/e, back to the rotary pipe dream.
I think Mazda and all the aftermarket know what they are dong with apex seals.
They put these things in aircraft because rotary engines are actualltly pretty damn efficient and reliable in a high duty cycle application. Apex seals are the only internal part of the engine that one needs to worry about.
Look how much these stupid little strips of metal cost.
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/store/p2/RA_2mm_Classic_Apex_Seals.html (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/store/p2/RA_2mm_Classic_Apex_Seals.html)
Yeah, it's a shame thet didn't use roller bearings, which would definitely neccessitate massive oil consumption, even if they were spring loaded to compensate for wear. There are good damn reasins why apex seals and piston rings are what they are.
I am not a fan of the looks. It is too low to the ground (or the wheels or too big...or both). I think this is one case where the car might actually look better when it gets to production (assuming it gets a more reasonable height and more reasonable wheels).
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 28, 2015, 07:00:28 AM
I think Mazda and all the aftermarket know what they are dong with apex seals.
They put these things in aircraft because rotary engines are actualltly pretty damn efficient and reliable in a high duty cycle application. Apex seals are the only internal part of the engine that one needs to worry about.
Look how much these stupid little strips of metal cost.
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/store/p2/RA_2mm_Classic_Apex_Seals.html (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/store/p2/RA_2mm_Classic_Apex_Seals.html)
Yeah, it's a shame thet didn't use roller bearings, which would definitely neccessitate massive oil consumption, even if they were spring loaded to compensate for wear. There are good damn reasins why apex seals and piston rings are what they are.
I don't even see how you'd get any compression at all using roller bearings but apparently I don't know what I'm talking about with rotaries. lel
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 28, 2015, 07:29:25 AM
I am not a fan of the looks. It is too low to the ground (or the wheels or too big...or both). I think this is one case where the car might actually look better when it gets to production (assuming it gets a more reasonable height and more reasonable wheels).
This is what I'm hoping as well. I really like most of the details but some things just seem too concept car-like and I'm thinking it'll be toned down for production and look great.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2015, 11:06:08 PM
Anywho, I wonder how close to production this interior is:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5e2wyfEL--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1493098202794769988.jpg)
It may be relatively close to production (apart from things like no air vents, no airbag etc.) if you look at how reduced the interior on the Mazda 2 is.
(https://photos-1.carwow.co.uk/models/1600x800/Mazda-2-interior-pic.jpg)
Quote from: Galaxy on October 28, 2015, 10:03:24 AM
It may be relatively close to production (apart from things like no air vents, no airbag etc.) if you look at how reduced the interior on the Mazda 2 is.
(https://photos-1.carwow.co.uk/models/1600x800/Mazda-2-interior-pic.jpg)
I hope so. I just really hope they don't put that damn screen on there. I love the 2's interior otherwise.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 28, 2015, 10:16:15 AM
I hope so. I just really hope they don't put that damn screen on there. I love the 2's interior otherwise.
Eh, I don't mind the screen... it allows for the less bulky dash design. Still, not everyone likes it so it should be optional.
Someone at my job has a base 3.... still has a screen, but it's comically small.
Rearview cameras are now required equipment.
So, yes; it gets a screen. Somewhere.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 28, 2015, 01:43:56 PM
Someone at my job has a base 3.... still has a screen, but it's comically small.
The 3's all get the same screen. Only the 2014 base cars have the clock radio on the dash
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAMQjRxqFQoTCK2c49j85cgCFQzJYwodBCoELA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.examiner.com%2Fslideshow%2Fmore-photos-of-the-2014-mazda3-i-touring&psig=AFQjCNFUKGNDo4cUsnUqpAXTVbjAKEEnwQ&ust=1446149461431638)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 28, 2015, 01:52:27 PM
Rearview cameras are now required equipment.
So, yes; it gets a screen. Somewhere.
Yeah, but they could do a better job of integrating it into the dash.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 28, 2015, 02:36:47 PM
Yeah, but they could do a better job of integrating it into the dash.
I like the uninegrated screen :huh:
Quote from: thecarnut on October 28, 2015, 02:36:47 PM
Yeah, but they could do a better job of integrating it into the dash.
I agree, and it seems like a trend these days. 3ers and CLAs are like this too. It looks cheap to me... like they designed the whole interior before they got the requirement that it had to have a screen, so they just kinda bolted one on.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 28, 2015, 02:41:29 PM
I like the uninegrated screen :huh:
Me too Kev, for the reason I stated above.
Mazda stated the rotary is coming without electrification first to showcase their expertise in the field
Quote from: 68_427 on October 30, 2015, 11:48:38 AM
Mazda stated the rotary is coming without electrification first to showcase their expertise in the field
What's your source?!
Finally a fantastic interior - basic, no infotainment, not overwrought. It can't be production though as there are no airbags but still, it's a step in the right direction.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 28, 2015, 01:52:27 PM
Rearview cameras are now required equipment.
So, yes; it gets a screen. Somewhere.
Rearview mirror.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 30, 2015, 02:11:35 PM
Finally a fantastic interior - basic, no infotainment, not overwrought. It can't be production though as there are no airbags but still, it's a step in the right direction.
Fast touchscreen infotainment is OK
Mazda's new rotary engine may be even more revolutionary than expected.
The automaker has confirmed that it is working on a revival of the Wankel rotary motor, which it last produced in 2012, and has even unveiled a concept car with one called the RX-Vision.
Poor fuel economy and emissions forced the technology to the bench, but Mazda has continued to develop it with an eye on improving its performance in these areas and increasing its torque output, while maintaining the compact design's high power density and smooth operation.
Related Image
wankel-no-spark.jpgExpand / Contract
A Mazda rotary engine (Mazda)
Details on the new engine have not been revealed, Mazda's head of R&D, Kyoshi Fujiwara tells CarsGuide that turbocharging will play large role, while suggesting that the spark plug could become a supporting character.
One problem with the rotary design is that the spark plug needs to be located outside of the combustion chamber to allow the rotor to clear it. This makes it difficult to precisely control the combustion process. Fujiwara says this issue has been solved, suggesting a move to Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition, or HCCI.
HCCI is a combustion method that combines high compression with a lean air-fuel mixture to burn gasoline without the need for a spark plug. It's simply heated enough by the compression to self-combust, similar to how a diesel engine works. A spark is still used at certain times, often at very low and high rpms, but is largely avoided.
Automakers, including Mazda, have been developing piston engines with the technology for years. Their main advantage is a fuel efficiency boost of 15 percent or more, which also leads to lower emissions, but the precise management of engine temperature and the fuel mixture required to make them work has kept them out of production, so far.
Fujiwara would not confirm that the new rotary uses HCCI, but did say that it is definitely not a diesel.
When it comes to answers, that sounds like the engineer version of spin.
Wow, that sounds amazing.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 16, 2015, 11:23:00 AM
Wow, that sounds amazing.
Not hard to do without an actual product :lol:
Cool! I remember hearing about HCCI like a decade ago. I thought it was a dead end, since there are no production implementations of it so far.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 16, 2015, 11:32:03 AM
Not hard to do without an actual product :lol:
The article said they stated it was solved or something, so I was guessing there's at least a prototype running around somewhere.
Well, it's going to be turbocharged. That's a good start.
I really think some form of hybrid would fix most of the problems with the torque and emissions.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 16, 2015, 11:48:53 AM
Well, it's going to be turbocharged. That's a good start.
I really think some form of hybrid would fix most of the problems with the torque and emissions.
A LaFerrari type hybrid with a Wankel would be nuts. Yes please.
The big thing they were working on for rotaries was laser ignition. They were shooting pin point lasers for spark at different areas of the combustion chamber at different times. Basically, more complete combustion and they had much better control of the flame front.
That's a whole lot more likely than HCCI. HCCI requires a level of controls on the fuel injection that no one has been able to pull off yet.
Freaking lasers man?
How do they keep the laser lens clean in such a dirty environment?
I think they mounted the sparkplugs on a plunger so they can stick down into the combustion chamber when they fire and then recede into the chamber wall to clear the apex seals.
Rotaries with frickin' laser beams!?
Quote from: MX793 on November 16, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
How do they keep the laser lens clean in such a dirty environment?
I think they mounted the sparkplugs on a plunger so they can stick down into the combustion chamber when they fire and then recede into the chamber wall to clear the apex seals.
Pushrod sparkplugs. :lol:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 16, 2015, 01:37:57 PM
Pushrod sparkplugs. :lol:
No, now the rotary is too complex.
This disappearing spark plug must have no moving parts.
What if the rot0r, itself, was able to contain three separate electric circuits that discharged each time the rot0r was in a particular position? This would be a brushless design, of course.
That would solve the apex seal problem..... kind of brilliant :hmm:
Quote from: Raza on November 16, 2015, 01:00:04 PM
Rotaries with frickin' laser beams!?
Because the rotary wasn't cool enough already. That's even cooler than fitting Lasers with rotary engines.
Yeah. The stuff I was reading a year or two was straight up science fiction.
But they could control location of ignition, it was crazy. Like they could pin point in space how deep into the mixture they wanted it to start.
http://jalopnik.com/holy-crap-mazdas-working-on-a-new-turbo-rotary-engine-1768924550 (http://jalopnik.com/holy-crap-mazdas-working-on-a-new-turbo-rotary-engine-1768924550)
:dance: :dance: :dance:
Mazda fighting the good fight. Bring back the RX-3 sedan for me pls.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 04, 2016, 01:14:20 PM
Mazda fighting the good fight. Bring back the RX-3 sedan for me pls.
I want rotaries in everything.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 04, 2016, 01:15:42 PM
I want rotaries in everything.
Everything? :lol:
OK
http://www.burlexe.com/how-to-twirl-nipple-tassels/ (http://www.burlexe.com/how-to-twirl-nipple-tassels/)
Dead? :(
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mazda-kills-rx-9-and-relegates-rotary-power-to-hybrids/
The CEO is great for shareholders (short to mid term), terrible for enthusiasts.
Enthusiasts are terrible for business.
IMO, both sides need to stop pussyfooting. Sports cars could be a lot cheaper and cleaner if "enthusiasts" didn't want them to be comfortable and luxurious too. At least in the US. They have the right idea in the UK with shit like Caterams and X-bows. A sports car shouldn't be comfortable or a year round ride IMO. That compromise makes them pointless.
In the context of the rotary engine, making it lug ~2000lb around instead of 3000+ would probably make hitting emissions targets a lot easier to hit. That's the real issue. The fact that they tried to make the last RX a family car is what killed it.
Sports cars are so impractical that the majority of buyers of them are pretty well off, and they don't want to sacrifice luxury for enthusiast cachet. Look at a modern Porsche vs. an old 911, for example. The new ones are much, much cushier. It's a catch-22: you can't build something sporty without making it luxurious, and you can't command high prices for a car like that unless you're a so-called 'premium' brand.
I think there is a market for sports cars free of creature comforts. People still buy motorcycles
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2016, 11:21:48 AM
Enthusiasts are terrible for business.
I think Toyota initially agreed with you and then disagreed after a few years when people slowed theit buying of their boring ass product line.
At some point, any new car purchase is an emotional decision as it pretty much never makes financial sense. The enthusiast side of the business bring emotion.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2016, 11:57:39 AM
I think Toyota initially agreed with you and then disagreed after a few years when people slowed theit buying of their boring ass product line.
At some point, any new car purchase is an emotional decision as it pretty much never makes financial sense. The enthusiast side of the business bring emotion.
Most buyers don't have an enthusiast side. You look at the top 10 selling vehicles (F-150, Silverado, RAM, Corolla, Camry, RAV-4, Accord, Rogue, CR-V, Civic), only like 2-3 have enthusiast versions (Accord Sport, Civic Si), and they all get outsold by cars with no enthusiast versions. Most Accords/Civics sold are plain Jane LX/EX/Hybrids. For like 99.999999% of the market enthusiasm is a non-factor.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2016, 11:57:39 AM
I think Toyota initially agreed with you and then disagreed after a few years when people slowed theit buying of their boring ass product line.
At some point, any new car purchase is an emotional decision as it pretty much never makes financial sense. The enthusiast side of the business bring emotion.
Nah, Toyota is only trying to make their normal cars look more exciting. That's about as "sporty" as most car buyers are willing to go.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2016, 12:16:47 PM
Most buyers don't have an enthusiast side. You look at the top 10 selling vehicles (F-150, Silverado, RAM, Corolla, Camry, RAV-4, Accord, Rogue, CR-V, Civic), only like 2-3 have enthusiast versions (Accord Sport, Civic Si), and they all get outsold by cars with no enthusiast versions. Most Accords/Civics sold are plain Jane LX/EX/Hybrids. For like 99.999999% of the market enthusiasm is a non-factor.
Many of the vehicles on the best sellers list sell heavily to fleets.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2016, 12:16:47 PM
Most buyers don't have an enthusiast side. You look at the top 10 selling vehicles (F-150, Silverado, RAM, Corolla, Camry, RAV-4, Accord, Rogue, CR-V, Civic), only like 2-3 have enthusiast versions (Accord Sport, Civic Si), and they all get outsold by cars with no enthusiast versions. Most Accords/Civics sold are plain Jane LX/EX/Hybrids. For like 99.999999% of the market enthusiasm is a non-factor.
Many buyers don't buy the item that drew them into the showroom... You completely missed the point once again.
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2016, 03:48:33 PM
Many buyers don't buy the item that drew them into the showroom... You completely missed the point once again.
What "items" are drawing people into Honda/Toyota showrooms? You think the bulk of people buying Camrys and Civics came in to look at 86s and CR-Zs? Halo cars are bullshit. Nobody bought a Sentra because it shared a brand/showroom space with a GT-R.
For as disappointed as I am in a new RX-7 not happening, I can't be mad at Mazda. I doubt there was a business case for it at all. And they still make the best entry level sports car out there, despite being one of the smallest manufacturers. They're doing more in the sports car world than most of the bigger players.
I would have seriously considered this car if it had come out around 2022. :cry:
Oh well, I got my dorito powered car ownership fulfilled.
I'd be satisfied with renewed focus on the Miata, with special editions, a Mazdaspeed version, new fucking colours, etc.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2016, 09:40:22 AM
What "items" are drawing people into Honda/Toyota showrooms? You think the bulk of people buying Camrys and Civics came in to look at 86s and CR-Zs? Halo cars are bullshit. Nobody bought a Sentra because it shared a brand/showroom space with a GT-R.
Halo cars are for real, man. Nick bought a Versa S because he went in to get a GT-R, but couldn't afford it.
Quote from: Raza on December 07, 2016, 01:00:44 PM
Halo cars are for real, man. Nick bought a Versa S because he went in to get a GT-R, but couldn't afford it.
i lol'd
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2016, 09:40:22 AM
What "items" are drawing people into Honda/Toyota showrooms? You think the bulk of people buying Camrys and Civics came in to look at 86s and CR-Zs? Halo cars are bullshit. Nobody bought a Sentra because it shared a brand/showroom space with a GT-R.
Toyota is in total desperation mode right now styling the fuck out of their cars to try and get people's attention. Why are they doing this when an average Toyota buyer is a bland appliance shopper? Why did they spend half a effort slapping a badge on a Subaru trying to get a sports car in their portfolio?
It's because bland will sell well and make the shareholders happy for awhile... and then after a few years of no real emotional or aspirational products, the brand starts to die on the vine and become irrevelent.
Honda? How many Honda accords were sold because people loved the shit out of the civic si, integra type r, s2000, and NSX? Honda had a class of car that made tons of Honda fanboys and they were able to live off of it for years... Then business started declining and now you have an actual effort into a civic type r, nsx, and reportedly a new s2000
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2016, 01:07:00 PM
Toyota is in total desperation mode right now styling the fuck out of their cars to try and get people's attention. Why are they doing this when an average Toyota buyer is a bland appliance shopper? Why did they spend half a effort slapping a badge on a Subaru trying to get a sports car in their portfolio?
It's because bland will sell well and make the shareholders happy for awhile... and then after a few years of no real emotional or aspirational products, the brand starts to die on the vine and become irrevelent.
Toyota in desperation mode :wtf:
Toyota made styling a priority because the competition stepped up styling in a huge way. 6-10 years ago Hyundai, Kia, Ford, Chrysler and to a large degree Mazda made some pretty generic or downright hideous cars. In 1 generation all those companies leapfrogged each other to become design leaders. Plus styling still takes a back seat to practicality... Camry + Corolla still have good rear headroom at the expense of sexy profiles; RAV-4 is still a practical box and not a Macan style baseball cap etc. There's absolutely nothing "emotional" or "aspirational" about any of Toyota's mainstream engines/chassis either.
And even that is not enough. The Chrysler 200 is a gorgeous car, and it's dying. Meanwhile the comparatively bland Camry is the top selling midsizer by a wide margin. People in mainstream segments don't give a shit about "emotion" or "aspiration".
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2016, 01:07:00 PMHonda? How many Honda accords were sold because people loved the shit out of the civic si, integra type r, s2000, and NSX? Honda had a class of car that made tons of Honda fanboys and they were able to live off of it for years... Then business started declining and now you have an actual effort into a civic type r, nsx, and reportedly a new s2000
Nobody is buying a damn Accord because they loved their CSi/ITR/S2000/NSX. They're buying used CSi/ITR/S2000/NSXs or have moved on to shit like M3s or Porsches. By this logic you would have sold your RX-8 and bought a Mazda 6.... why didn't you?
And I would argue that the revival of the CTR/NSX/S2000 are just bids for more market share and a way to recoup on R&D costs. Remember the NSX is New Sports eXperimental.... there's a lot of tech in the first NSX that trickled down and I'm sure there's a lot in this one that will do the same. If they can convince people to buy the hideous CTR that will pad the Civic's profitability and increase market share/volume. You have it all backwards.... average mainstream buyer has no idea halo cars even exist, and the two top selling mainstreamer brands (Toyota/Honda) don't even have halo cars. The whole concept is complete baseless internet teenager nonsense.
Toyota styling has only gone downhill after the 1993 Corolla.
Every Toyota with this logo on it has been a fairly disgusting visual design.
(https://listcarbrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/logo-Toyota.png)
But genrally reliable with very appliancey behaviour.
The only actually good looking Toyota is the Frbreez86, and they wouldn't even put their name on it at first.
I like the way new modern Toyotas and Lexuses look
Corolla could have better proportions and less wheel gap. I was surprised how much better the Camry looked in person too.
But yea nobody is buying an Accord because they loved their old NSX. The halo car concept is laughable.
I bought my Golf because I assumed (and still assume!) it is based on Porsche 911. :huh:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 08, 2016, 10:48:20 AM
Corolla could have better proportions and less wheel gap. I was surprised how much better the Camry looked in person too.
But yea nobody is buying an Accord because they loved their old NSX. The halo car concept is laughable.
And your love with Honda comes from what? You owned a beater accord because? You bought a civic at a time when their was better choices because?
...I'm sure none of the above came from the late 90s or early 2000s import scene...
Quote from: r0tor on December 08, 2016, 11:13:45 AM
And your love with Honda comes from what? You owned a beater accord because? You bought a civic at a time when their was better choices because?
...I'm sure none of the above came from the late 90s or early 2000s import scene...
That definitely factored in it
for me. Problem is I am only 1 of millions of Civic drivers. Your logic is akin to saying that because Spoon built a time attack car everyone who buys Civics buys them to do time attacks. FFS... less than 2% of the new Civics on sale are stickshift. Nobody who was into the old import scene is buying a damn CVT Civic. Of the 8th/9th gens on sale, ~10% are Sis and ~13% are stickshift. The bulk of people buying Hondas don't give a flying fuck about emotion/excitement/old Hondas/NSXs.
(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18wxmh0exfj4tgif/ku-medium.gif)
So "nobody" buys accords based on that.. but you did...
Oh whatever.... You still miss the point -ireallydontgiveafuck shrug-
Quote from: r0tor on December 08, 2016, 01:08:29 PM
So "nobody" buys accords based on that.. but you did...
Oh whatever.... You still miss the point -ireallydontgiveafuck shrug-
I bought my Accords in the thick of the import craze, and they were DWB Hondas. Can't have nostalgia with the genuine article while shit is happening. This is like saying people in the 80s were dressing like MJ for nostalgia.
And LOL @ figuring out you "really don't give a fuck" after you spent 1,000+ words making zero sense. Halo cars don't work and Honda is not selling cars via nostalgia. I forgot how stubborn you can be
Quote from: 2o6 on December 08, 2016, 10:38:21 AM
I like the way new modern Toyotas and Lexuses look
Lexus has it going ON with the LC 500:
(http://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/fit_1960x1102/public/images/news-article/carousel/2016/01/7b78c190f7cb629081a96b4d82d20663/2016_naias_lexus_lc_500_010_384d6fc1836e6e64479891affa7dd02d3bd83c64.jpg?itok=vM06ap6u)
It's too bad it doesn't drive anywhere near as good as it looks
Weighs as much as the GS-F :(
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 08, 2016, 01:36:34 PM
It's too bad it doesn't drive anywhere near as good as it looks
Weighs as much as the GS-F :(
Compare it directly to the 6 series.
They need to "gran coupe" the LC.
OK, that actually makes a lot of sense. And a GS GC would be kind of cool. It's definitely a looker
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 08, 2016, 01:17:05 PM
I bought my Accords in the thick of the import craze, and they were DWB Hondas. Can't have nostalgia with the genuine article while shit is happening. This is like saying people in the 80s were dressing like MJ for nostalgia.
And LOL @ figuring out you "really don't give a fuck" after you spent 1,000+ words making zero sense. Halo cars don't work and Honda is not selling cars via nostalgia. I forgot how stubborn you can be
You became a Honda fanboy and buyer from halo type cars. I ended up buying an RX8 because I grew up loving the FD RX7... It's all pointless to even debate this with you as your #1 character trait is believing you are a unicorn in the world where you never fall into any stereotype and your decision process is completely unique.
Halo cars are a form of advertising. They draw media attention. They draw people's attention to the brand. They drive the direction of the brand. They showcase abilities of the brand. They can drive the public perception of the brand.
Quote from: r0tor on December 08, 2016, 03:21:23 PM
You became a Honda fanboy and buyer from halo type cars. I ended up buying an RX8 because I grew up loving the FD RX7... It's all pointless to even debate this with you as your #1 character trait is believing you are a unicorn in the world where you never fall into any stereotype and your decision process is completely unique.
Halo cars are a form of advertising. They draw media attention. They draw people's attention to the brand. They drive the direction of the brand. They showcase abilities of the brand. They can drive the public perception of the brand.
I became a Honda fanboy because my car dealer uncle found me a 93 Accord with ~87K miles for $2200. It was pure chance. If I had got the G20t he found instead I probably never would have got into Hondas in the first place. I was happy with Maximas.
I don't think I'm a special unicorn. You have the opposite problem. You think that because you bought an RX-8 from your RX-7 fandom, everyone who buys any car buys it because of some halo car. And that's just not true. Most car buyers don't even know the halo cars exist. It's a non issue. Halo cars do everything you claim but nowhere near to a degree that actually matters. Again Toyota sells the most cars with no halo car.
New rotary powered concept coming this fall :popcorn:
... Production car apparently still didn't get signed off by CEO BeanCounter-son though :banghead:...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.motortrend.com/news/new-mazda-rotary-concept/amp/#ampshare=http://www.motortrend.com/news/new-mazda-rotary-concept/
2019 RX7 concept to be unveiled at Tokyo Motor Show.
I'll believe it when I see it
Quote from: Rockraven on October 10, 2017, 08:47:20 AM
2019 RX7 concept to be unveiled at Tokyo Motor Show.
...So much for that...
Please die Mazda
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
bluh
The Tokyo auto show just makes me sad. No wonder people are falling out of love with cars.
Quote from: MX793 on October 26, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
The Tokyo auto show just makes me sad. No wonder people are falling out of love with cars.
Autonomous motorcycle? :facepalm:
Quote from: MX793 on October 26, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
The Tokyo auto show just makes me sad. No wonder people are falling out of love with cars.
Cars are dead. Only tech remains. In the future, the entire world will resemble a smartphone. Even megachurches will die and be replaced by smartphone churches, which will allow you to be sermonized to from home and Venmo your money to the church as you are saved. Preachers will be the new cam girls.
Swipe Right for Holy Communion
Swipe Left for Confession
DOWNLOAD CLASH OF CLANS
What exactly are we crying about? This car is holy hell gorgeous and one of my favorite interiors in a long time.
Quote from: Xer0 on October 26, 2017, 01:39:35 PM
What exactly are we crying about? This car is holy hell gorgeous and one of my favorite interiors in a long time.
It's vaporware... even if it was produced, it would have a 160hp 4 cylinder
Quote from: r0tor on October 26, 2017, 04:59:51 PM
It's vaporware... even if it was produced, it would have a 160hp 4 cylinder
I am hoping that the production version is relatively close to the concept. The Mazda 2 also carried a lot over into production, including the extremely reduced interior.
Quote from: Raza on October 26, 2017, 09:10:51 AM
Cars are dead. Only tech remains. In the future, the entire world will resemble a smartphone. Even megachurches will die and be replaced by smartphone churches, which will allow you to be sermonized to from home and Venmo your money to the church as you are saved. Preachers will be the new cam girls.
Crap, that is a million dollar idea, right there! Have them donate in real time with credit cards.
https://www.motor1.com/news/361591/mazda-rx-8-nurburgring-testing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1EYIo-9Y7YHuVFCbLiiut1a52eDCO-2hcY7ifmdEWyACurw1g8gnkh0DI
Mazda's always doing this shit.. they need to go all out and make a supercar that looks like Furai with a rotary
Quote from: Onslaught on July 27, 2019, 08:18:54 AM
https://www.motor1.com/news/361591/mazda-rx-8-nurburgring-testing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1EYIo-9Y7YHuVFCbLiiut1a52eDCO-2hcY7ifmdEWyACurw1g8gnkh0DI
Pretty sure they are testing an LFX swap
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 28, 2019, 06:17:41 AM
Pretty sure they are testing an LFX swap
No, that didn't sound like shit.