Cadillac CT6 Flagship to Make Debut: March 31st 2015 at NYIAS / Latest Caddy Updates

[12,000 RPM]

March 31st WTF

[68_427]

March 31st WTF

A couple days before NYIAS, where it'll make it's show debut.


Fuck didn't realize it was so soon. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

GM has been struggling with cadillac for a long time. It doesn't seem like it's getting any better. They are always chasing the germans, and now they are getting some pressure from behind with mainstream offerings continuing to step up their quality and features.

I'd even go so far as to state that cars like the Chrysler 300 offer just as much luxury and road presence as a CTS. Which is really sad when you think about it, from cadillacs standpoint.

[Payman]

GM has been struggling with cadillac for a long time. It doesn't seem like it's getting any better. They are always chasing the germans, and now they are getting some pressure from behind with mainstream offerings continuing to step up their quality and features.

I'd even go so far as to state that cars like the Chrysler 300 offer just as much luxury and road presence as a CTS. Which is really sad when you think about it, from cadillacs standpoint.

Where is this coming from? Cadillac has been doing great this past decade, and has a solid lineup of cars and SUVs. Their models were once the subject of depreciation jokes, but their values now hold as good or better than the Germans. The ATS is a slow seller, but lots of Japanese competition mixed into that segment as well as the Germans. Cadillac is fine. Lincoln is the kid we need to be concerned about.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Where is this coming from? Cadillac has been doing great this past decade, and has a solid lineup of cars and SUVs. Their models were once the subject of depreciation jokes, but their values now hold as good or better than the Germans. The ATS is a slow seller, but lots of Japanese competition mixed into that segment as well as the Germans. Cadillac is fine. Lincoln is the kid we need to be concerned about.

You did see the article posted above about cadillac lowering prices because of sales/price complaints.

Where is this coming from?

Reality, probably.

Sure cadillac is doing better now then they ever have in the past 30 years, but they are still not doing very well.

[hotrodalex]

I don't understand comments like that. Sporty says a lot of the same stuff. But if they're not supposed to chase the Germans, what are they supposed to do? That's what the market is right now. It's like no matter what Cadillac does, they'll be poo-pooed on for not doing the opposite. Are they supposed to just automatically come out with the world's best car, go from zero to hero with one NYIAS reveal? That's the same mistake GM has made for past 30 years, expecting cars to take over the market place in one shot and when they don't, they scrap it and try again. It leads to crappy brand image. Gotta work your way up, gain respect and good reputation. Cadillac seems to be on a good path now.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I don't understand comments like that. Sporty says a lot of the same stuff. But if they're not supposed to chase the Germans, what are they supposed to do? That's what the market is right now. It's like no matter what Cadillac does, they'll be poo-pooed on for not doing the opposite. Are they supposed to just automatically come out with the world's best car, go from zero to hero with one NYIAS reveal? That's the same mistake GM has made for past 30 years, expecting cars to take over the market place in one shot and when they don't, they scrap it and try again. It leads to crappy brand image. Gotta work your way up, gain respect and good reputation. Cadillac seems to be on a good path now.

I guess chase the germans is more criticism for being "one dimensional" if you will. I think GM seems to have the impression that if they offer what the germans offer at a similar price point, then they'll just get customers.

I'm of the opinion that they have to look beyond, sure they can take some market cues and product position data from them, but I think they need to offer much more(like blatantly more) car for a similar price to lure away buyers from the germans. It would be a different scenario if one or more of the competition was faltering and giving up buyers due to a string of poor product or poor business direction. I don't see that as the case, so why would happy(content) german buyers buy a cadillac that is pretty much a copy(price vs feature wise) of a german product that they are already a happy customer of?

Cadillac has to move upmarket, while giving up sales in order to establish a better market presence. At which point they can then go and offer lower priced entry market products.

[12,000 RPM]

Ive said it a million times before. The "chase the Germans" thing is a red herring and a gross misunderstanding of the luxury market. The Germans themselves are moving away from the outdated C&D comparison test winner business model and focusing on building cars their customers want- even if they aren't dynamically razor sharp (since most luxury customers don't give a shit about Ring times or Brembo Brakes™). Enthusiasts love what Caddy is doing but aren't actually buying it. The whole thing speaks to exactly why the Germans stay ahead. It's not about brand cachet or 10/10ths dynamics or whatever out of context metrics people look at. It's simple business- making products (cars) consumers want to buy.

I said what Caddy should have done before. But I'll lay it out again, in the context of what they're doing wrong.

- Caddy should NOT bother with an "S-Class Fighter". Everyone but Mercedes is losing volume/market share in that segment, despite having a deeper understanding of the market, higher brand cachet and somewhat established market share.

- Caddy should NOT put dynamics above everything else. Why o why would someone want a 3 series over an ATS? The ATS was Ring tuned!!!! Well the BMW has a more spacious interior, more logical/robust infotaintment interfaces, better engines from top to bottom, and even from an enthusiast's POV it has better performance and no silly transmission limits (as well as a better automatic, which again is relevant to 95% of the luxury market). I.e. the 99.9% of the time folks aren't pushing it to its limits it's simply a better car to own/drive/live with than the ATS, period.

- Caddy should NOT have come out with a damn sport sedan before some new CUVs. The current SRX is 7 years old!!!! They have no answer to stuff like the Evoque or Q3 which is literally the hottest segment in the luxury market at the moment. Sport sedans by comparison are stagant and that segment is fully mature + incredibly competitive.

- GM should NOT have come out with the Alpha platform IMO. Yea the Sigma was old and the CTS was a little small and heavy. But they could have made that work. For the billions they put into it they got nothing back- they are putting 4-5 figure incentives on the hoods of ATSs and CTSs. Last CTS hit 55K sales in the US and didn't need huge incentives to sell; 2014 the ATS/CTS combined moved a little over 60K with tons of incentives. So what did they really gain from the change???

People think I am being unfairly harsh on Cadillac.... no way. Its clear GM has figured out how to build decent cars. My beef is they still haven't figured out how to run a car business, with the biggest issue being a complete absence of understanding of various key markets. They get trucks and the Corvette is impressive, but they still haven't figured out mainstreamers or luxury cars. And the thing with Cadillac is even though the segment is cramped and competitive there still seem to be pretty fucking obvious openings for them to attack. German auto design is pretty fucking boring ATM.... all of Audi's cars look 10 years old; the BMW sedans are nearly indistinguishable from one another; Mercedes has good detailing but boring shapes and profiles. Caddy's concepts show they know how to create jaw dropping style, but for some reason beyond my comprehension they decide to strip their cars of that style and make them as boring as the Germans. Problem is Germans have other merits relevant to the market to sell on and Caddy doesn't. They just don't fucking get it. Same with this alphanumeric bullshit. CT6? Sounds like a cancer gene. When is Cadillac/GM going to get its head out of its ass???  The perpetual incompetence is what infuriates me as they have and have displayed such potential to do great.

[12,000 RPM]

I guess chase the germans is more criticism for being "one dimensional" if you will. I think GM seems to have the impression that if they offer what the germans offer at a similar price point, then they'll just get customers.

I'm of the opinion that they have to look beyond, sure they can take some market cues and product position data from them, but I think they need to offer much more(like blatantly more) car for a similar price to lure away buyers from the germans. It would be a different scenario if one or more of the competition was faltering and giving up buyers due to a string of poor product or poor business direction. I don't see that as the case, so why would happy(content) german buyers buy a cadillac that is pretty much a copy(price vs feature wise) of a german product that they are already a happy customer of?

Cadillac has to move upmarket, while giving up sales in order to establish a better market presence. At which point they can then go and offer lower priced entry market products.

Like Ive said before.... nobody wants store brand product at name brand prices. Cadillac really thought they could pull the wool over the eyes over the smartest/brand conscious/demanding segment of the auto market, yet fucking again. Can anyone come up with some reasons why one should buy an ATS over a 3 series (at full price) that doesn't revolve around vague contrarianism ("its different")?

And its going to be the same story with the XE but I will leave that alone for now.

[hotrodalex]

Current SRX came out in 2009 and looks like it will be replaced for the 2016 model year. That's not an abnormal lifespan. A little long, but not enough to crucify them. Hopefully they'll come out with both an X3 and X5 fighter soon.

It they kept the old platform everyone would still bitch about it, lose/lose situation for you apparently.

Cadillac wants to play in the top-luxury field, meaning it needs a large sedan.

I see nothing wrong with putting dynamics above everything else, since that doesn't have to be exclusive. They could have done a better job with some of the other aspects of the car, but as an overall package it's a good car.

Again, seems like you want to see them jump to the front of the pack in one swing, which simply isn't possible.

[12,000 RPM]

Its not that I want to see them jump to the front of the pack in one swing as much as I dont want them to make 4-5 huge mistakes with the launch of yet another car that's supposed to save the brand.

I wouldn't mind them keeping the old platform if it meant they spent the money they would have used to develop a new one on shit they actually need. Like HVAC/radio buttons & knobs, and instrument clusters not out of a Cutlass Calais 2.3 HO, and back seat space, and above average engines, and captivating exterior designs, and actual market research instead of these silo ideologies ("we want to play in the top luxury field! watever we think that means. we want to fight with the Germans! watever we think that means. that should sell cars rite?")

I dont see anything wrong with making dynamics a priority, but it's clear where GM spent their money and where they didn't... and they didn't spend it on the things customers in this segment actually want.

All I want is for Cadillac to build cars people will actually buy; instead they seemed hellbent on building cars relevant to market demands from like 20 years ago. They need to wake the fuck up.

[pendyman]

Here's a link to some pics and video of the car at NY auto show:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/03/2016-cadillac-ct6-flagship-luxury-sedan.html

[pendyman]

Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-cadillac-ct6-photos-and-info-news

[hotrodalex]

I don't like the steering wheel, but otherwise the styling is solid.

[SJ_GTI]

Ouch, not a good looking car IMHO. Proportions are nice, but too slab sided I think.

[hotrodalex]

Better than flame surfacing garbage.

[Tave]

I don't agree with all the doom and gloom regarding Caddy. Compared to the early and mid 90s, Caddy's portfolio is lightyears ahead of its nadir. It would be unreasonable to expect a never ending stream of home runs: a couple hits here and there and steady improvement is what you want for long-term viability.

The way I see it, they look to be positioning the CT6 with the content of a German fullsize but at a price point closer to the midsizers. That's Caddy's sweet spot, IMO, and that goes for the lesser models too. Give them the content and luxury of the larger cars at a price the Germans can't match. I agree; however, that the styling should be a little more edgy.

One thing you have to keep in mind when talking about Caddy, is that you can't use the MB or BMW business model as a benchmark because they are entirely different. Caddy is a lot closer to Audi, where it's just one holding in a larger portfolio that intentionally markets itself to discreet demographics. Sure, MB and BMW sell more 5-series or S-classes or whatever--but they don't sell much outside of their core brands, and within those global sales figures they're moving a lot of de-contented models along with the luxury trims.

[CALL_911]

I don't agree with all the doom and gloom regarding Caddy. Compared to the early and mid 90s, Caddy's portfolio is lightyears ahead of its nadir. It would be unreasonable to expect a never ending stream of home runs: a couple hits here and there and steady improvement is what you want for long-term viability.

The way I see it, they look to be positioning the CT6 with the content of a German fullsize but at a price point closer to the midsizers. That's Caddy's sweet spot, IMO, and that goes for the lesser models too. Give them the content and luxury of the larger cars at a price the Germans can't match. I agree; however, that the styling should be a little more edgy.

One thing you have to keep in mind when talking about Caddy, is that you can't use the MB or BMW business model as a benchmark because they are entirely different. Caddy is a lot closer to Audi, where it's just one holding in a larger portfolio that intentionally markets itself to discreet demographics. Sure, MB and BMW sell more 5-series or S-classes or whatever--but they don't sell much outside of their core brands, and within those global sales figures they're moving a lot of de-contented models along with the luxury trims.

Dead on

[GoCougs]

^ I basically said that in the Lincoln thread. Cadillac is doing well and about as well as can be expected. With ~5-7 year product cycles it takes time to rebuild a car brand

It doesn't want to/can't be a M-B or BMW or Audi. Those are huge corporations with huge sales numbers. Cadillac has never been that. Also add in the F-sport and -V models and Cadillac has a compelling place in the market.

[ifcar]

I don't agree with all the doom and gloom regarding Caddy. Compared to the early and mid 90s, Caddy's portfolio is lightyears ahead of its nadir. It would be unreasonable to expect a never ending stream of home runs: a couple hits here and there and steady improvement is what you want for long-term viability.

The way I see it, they look to be positioning the CT6 with the content of a German fullsize but at a price point closer to the midsizers. That's Caddy's sweet spot, IMO, and that goes for the lesser models too. Give them the content and luxury of the larger cars at a price the Germans can't match. I agree; however, that the styling should be a little more edgy.

One thing you have to keep in mind when talking about Caddy, is that you can't use the MB or BMW business model as a benchmark because they are entirely different. Caddy is a lot closer to Audi, where it's just one holding in a larger portfolio that intentionally markets itself to discreet demographics. Sure, MB and BMW sell more 5-series or S-classes or whatever--but they don't sell much outside of their core brands, and within those global sales figures they're moving a lot of de-contented models along with the luxury trims.

The recent Cadillac sedans haven't shown themselves to have a price advantage over the German competition, though. The CTS (or whatever its new name will be) is already at $46,000 base. A 5-Series is $49,000, sure, but that's not enough of a difference to build a new niche out of.

At least there's still plenty of room to undercut an S-Class.

[Tave]

The recent Cadillac sedans haven't shown themselves to have a price advantage over the German competition, though. The CTS (or whatever its new name will be) is already at $46,000 base. A 5-Series is $49,000, sure, but that's not enough of a difference to build a new niche out of.

At least there's still plenty of room to undercut an S-Class.

Closer to 50K for the 5-Series, $49,950. That difference stays fairly constant throughout the line, and you can get an AWD CTS for less than the 5-Series' nominal MSRP. The CTS is better equipped out of the gate. Each CTS powertrain has essentially 3 trim levels, toping out at about 60K (theoretically options can drive it higher but the trim levels themselves account for the bulk of those). A 5-Series has a collection of stackable "lines, packages, options, and accessories" that push it north of 70K without even ticking half the boxes.

I took a few seconds and looked online at dealers in my area: The Cadillac dealer lists its entire inventory in the neighborhood of Cadillac advertised prices, while I see exactly 1 BMW 5-Series listed for less than $60,000.

[12,000 RPM]

IDK bro. True Delta says an equally equipped CTS MSRP's for about $4K more than a comparable 5. In reality tho with incentives and all that it prob trades hands for about 10K less. So Caddy really thought they could hang with the Germans on price and priced their cars accordingly, but the market took em down about 10-15 thousand notches. The assertion that they don't want to be the Germans or compete with the Germans is flat out wrong- they benchmarked the Germans in their prime and priced themselves like they were offering a premium German product, and so far its backfired colossally. This is in no way how they wanted things to go. They wanted to be moving those CTSs for $60K plus just like the Germans, not realizing they don't have the clout (or product) to do so.

[2o6]

Cadillac is very American in method of buying. dealers stock numbers and numbers of Cadillacs and they dealer trade, etc and the clientele are subject to traditional dealer practices.



At my job, we only have a handful of BMW's on the lot, lot of them cheaper 320's and 4 series. Most BMW owners order their cars and wait. Also, there's a lot of customization options for BMW's.



Cadillac needs to match that tailor made, customization option.

[hotrodalex]

Why?

[CALL_911]

I personally know like 2 people who factory ordered a new BMW as opposed to just taking an AWD example they had in stock. I seriously doubt that "most BMW owners order their cars and wait", and I absolutely do not think Cadillac needs to do that shit.

[Tave]

IDK bro. True Delta says an equally equipped CTS MSRP's for about $4K more than a comparable 5. In reality tho with incentives and all that it prob trades hands for about 10K less. So Caddy really thought they could hang with the Germans on price and priced their cars accordingly, but the market took em down about 10-15 thousand notches. The assertion that they don't want to be the Germans or compete with the Germans is flat out wrong- they benchmarked the Germans in their prime and priced themselves like they were offering a premium German product, and so far its backfired colossally. This is in no way how they wanted things to go. They wanted to be moving those CTSs for $60K plus just like the Germans, not realizing they don't have the clout (or product) to do so.

I think you're missing something. Regardless of dealer incentives, the MSRPs just don't add up.

Yep, checked True Delta and you have it exactly backwards.

[MX793]

Powertrain options for the CT6 is disappointing.  Unless it's some kind of hybrid, a 4 cylinder is unacceptable in a full-size, premium luxury flagship.  Particularly in North America.  For extremely regulated markets like Europe, maybe.  Personally, I think 4 cylinders in this kind of car are unacceptable under any circumstances (too much NVH), even if part of a hybrid powertrain, but it seems many of the big players are going this route (Audi, MB, and Jag all offer 2.0T motors in their flagship models in some markets, though not the US).  And while 6-cylinders are acceptable for lower or even mid-level trims, 8 or even 12 cylinder powerplants should be optional for higher trims.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Powertrain options for the CT6 is disappointing.  Unless it's some kind of hybrid, a 4 cylinder is unacceptable in a full-size, premium luxury flagship.  Personally, I think 4 cylinders in this kind of car are unacceptable under any circumstances (too much NVH), even if part of a hybrid powertrain.  And while 6-cylinders are acceptable for lower or even mid-level trims, 8 or even 12 cylinder powerplants should be optional for higher trims.

Gm is working with what they have, which on the luxury end isn't much. The whole "not using v8s because we're not the Cadillac of old" is just typical bs because they don't have the powertrains.

Also the tech stuff seems weak, i think you can get a better/larger screen in a dodge dart. I'd also have hoped they would have sought something a little better than a bose unit for their "flagship".

[2o6]

I think the 2.0t is a fine livery option, but the GM 2.0T isn't the most refined thing out there.

[68_427]

The dart does not have a screen larger than 10inches, and judging by the new Bose systems in the top trim suburbans/yukon/escalades this 34...  34 speaker system should be world class.


Also dohc v8s are coming.