Tesla

[2o6]

FM radio stations cost millions and have an effective range of 40-60 miles. AM does better but the sound quality is fairly wretched. They aren't going to be able to compete with modern telecommunications and the web, which is why, again, that internet radio has stolen almost half the listeners in a blink of an eye.

Puerto Rico is 35 miles long, and would be even worse shape (than it already is) sans analog radio.

[2o6]

Anyways, the viability of FM radio is a red herring. Tesla is cutting functionality for zero reason.

[Tave]

Point is, it costs practically nothing to include an FM antenna. Literally a piece of wire is sufficient. Tesla (and Apple) are falling in love with pushing "the future" onto customers, when the past/present is actually more reliable and practical. I love technology, but it has to prove its worth.

No one is forcing you to buy it.

Like any technology, there is a time when it's right to start phasing out the old and pushing towards the new.  The wireless data network is not widespread nor robust enough yet to fully abandon analog radio in favor of streaming.  Then again, the average EV owner isn't going to be far from a major population center for lack of a rapid charging station, so for cars like these maybe it doesn't matter.

Again, I would disagree, as I drive through plenty of regions without cell service and use internet audio almost exclusively (you guys realize your phone can download the content when it's connected and play it back when it's not, don't you?). I think your latter point is salient though—anyone whose cell service is so bad that this would be a huge issue, likely isn't the target market anyway.

[Tave]

Puerto Rico is 35 miles long, and would be even worse shape (than it already is) sans analog radio.

In Venice you can only travel by foot or gondola. What is your point, that we should model the continental US infrastructure after Puerto Rico?

[2o6]

In Venice you can only travel by foot or gondola. What is your point, that we should model the continental US infrastructure after Puerto Rico?

What the fuck are you on?

The point I'm trying to make - cell and internet data (along with shit like autonomous driving features) aren't foolproof.

Puerto Rico is in dire straits after two hurricanes; a lot of residents are staying in touch with authorities via analog radio. The whole island is still mostly without cell service and power; keeping radio towers powered helps get information to people who are otherwise in dire straits.

Cell reception isn't infallable, and there nothing wrong with having a cheap backup to relay information. Most of us have told you about several times where cell service isn'T always reliable. Having services (infotainment) that can't use something as basic as FM radio is a glaring omission that doesn't even cut costs.


Why are you so vehemently defending a very bad design choice?


Good design covers use, as well as *misuse*. There are a lot of ideas that's tesla does that are downright half-baked.

[Tave]

Anyways, the viability of FM radio is a red herring. Tesla is cutting functionality for zero reason.

Tesla is trying to crack the toughest and most expensive market on earth from scratch, using nothing but tech and ingenuity to leverage market inefficiencies and ID future trends. If they had to build a car like GM or Ford, the Model S and 3 would cost millions of dollars because they would have had to spent waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more capital to build them. Every little cost and complexity they save is a small part of the reason why it was even possible to bring it to market. Sure, the FM chip is a cheap part, but it still costs time and money to engineer it and the associated hardware/software into the vehicle.

Another side to this is, for years, automakers have struggled and failed miserably to make entertainment systems that aren't obsolete the moment they drive off the sales lot. Tesla is the first massed-produced car with open-ended electronics that can improve or stay relevant in the medium-term. That's not to say that they won't be themselves obsolete 10-20 years from now, but they aren't frozen in time like everything else.

[MX793]

Tesla is trying to crack the toughest and most expensive market on earth from scratch, using nothing but tech and ingenuity to leverage market inefficiencies and ID future trends. If they had to build a car like GM or Ford, the Model S and 3 would cost millions of dollars because they would have had to spent waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more capital to build them. Every little cost and complexity they save is a small part of the reason why it was even possible to bring it to market. Sure, the FM chip is a cheap part, but it still costs time and money to engineer it and the associated hardware/software into the vehicle.

Another side to this is, for years, automakers have struggled and failed miserably to make entertainment systems that aren't obsolete the moment they drive off the sales lot. Tesla is the first massed-produced car with open-ended electronics that can improve or stay relevant in the medium-term. That's not to say that they won't be themselves obsolete 10-20 years from now, but they aren't frozen in time like everything else.

Ford's Sync system can be updated via WiFi or mobile hotspot.  My 2011, while it couldn't connect to the web itself, could be updated if I loaded new SW to a USB stick or my phone and connected that to the car.  I think many of the others can be updated as well.  Being able to update the SW is one thing.  The company continuing to improve and support the SW is another.  And, of course, the HW becoming obsolete.

[Tave]

What the fuck are you on?

The point I'm trying to make - cell and internet data (along with shit like autonomous driving features) aren't foolproof.

Puerto Rico is in dire straits after two hurricanes; a lot of residents are staying in touch with authorities via analog radio. The whole island is still mostly without cell service and power; keeping radio towers powered helps get information to people who are otherwise in dire straits.

Cell reception isn't infallable, and there nothing wrong with having a cheap backup to relay information. Most of us have told you about several times where cell service isn'T always reliable. Having services (infotainment) that can't use something as basic as FM radio is a glaring omission that doesn't even cut costs.


Why are you so vehemently defending a very bad design choice?


Good design covers use, as well as *misuse*. There are a lot of ideas that's tesla does that are downright half-baked.

Dude, I know there are dead spots in the cell network. It's a transition period, not a fait accompli. Still it's quite clearly happening. Traditional radio—a 100 year industry medium giant—has quietly lost 30-40% of its market in virtually no time whatsoever. It's happening. I'm finding it incredibly frustrating why I'm even having to point it out when we're all walking around glued to palmheld supercomputers like the goddamn cast of Star Trek.

Also, I'm not saying traditional radio will die completely. I'm sure it might well have any number of vestigial uses. But clearly the consumer entertainment market is headed inexorably online.

[Tave]

Ford's Sync system can be updated via WiFi or mobile hotspot.  My 2011, while it couldn't connect to the web itself, could be updated if I loaded new SW to a USB stick or my phone and connected that to the car.  I think many of the others can be updated as well.  Being able to update the SW is one thing.  The company continuing to improve and support the SW is another.  And, of course, the HW becoming obsolete.

You're right, although those updates are so extremely limited I don't really consider them the same thing. The capacity of the system for integrated changes, and the degree to which (I assume) the vehicles provide data to Tesla, are going to allow it to do a lot more in the way of improvements.

[Soup DeVille]

Not anymore especially along major highways. Any given FM station tops out at 40-60 miles.

Yes, still.

Especially off major highways; and often the data connections are spotty enough to be useless, especially for streaming.

[12,000 RPM]

Coverage is getting pretty good everywhere, especially on our major roads.

Fuck that.

[Payman]

https://jalopnik.com/playing-around-with-you-infotainment-system-is-the-one-1819186510

I hope the Tesla 3, and future cars that mimic its interface, do not become common on the roads.

[12,000 RPM]

Can't post link but apparently they're building them by hand done they can't get the factory together in time

Enjoy that quality control

[Laconian]

Wow.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-production-is-jammed-up-because-parts-are-1819197180

[Soup DeVille]

Wow.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-production-is-jammed-up-because-parts-are-1819197180

Five Lakes Automation?

Very much a middle of the road shop; I mean Automation houses are all pretty interchangeable except for a couple that do real advanced stuff: which I kinda assumed Tesla had gone for and that that was why it was taking so long (teething problems with untested equipment and whatnot). But this is very much a mainstream sort of outfit. That is they pull from the same revolving door of personnel as the rest of the Oakland County area shops do.

[CaminoRacer]

Bolt >>>>>>

[MX793]

Wonder how much money they're losing per car having to pay for hand-assembly labor...

[GoCougs]

I don't buy the "hand assembly" labor line. If the Model 3 is anywhere near the sophistication of a car from a legit automaker, it's simply not possible - paint, welding, etc., cannot be replicated by hand. At most only it's only some of the non-critical processes that are "hand assembly" such as moving bodies between welding stations and the like.

[12,000 RPM]

I don't buy the "hand assembly" labor line. If the Model 3 is anywhere near the sophistication of a car from a legit automaker, it's simply not possible - paint, welding, etc., cannot be replicated by hand. At most only it's only some of the non-critical processes that are "hand assembly" such as moving bodies between welding stations and the like.

Lets see what the first deliveries look like. I would not put it past Tesla, this is an "unconventional" company after all

[CaminoRacer]

I would think it's interior bits and similar that are the hand assembly

[MX793]

I would think it's interior bits and similar that are the hand assembly

Yeah.  Welding of the structure is far too critical and time consuming to to by hand even at the low volume Tesla is at right now.  But assembly (installation of power train, suspension, interior trim) could absolutely be happening by hand.

[Soup DeVille]

Yeah.  Welding of the structure is far too critical and time consuming to to by hand even at the low volume Tesla is at right now.  But assembly (installation of power train, suspension, interior trim) could absolutely be happening by hand.

If it's properly fixtured, running a spot welder to the right points isn't too hard. But, that's such a standard automotive thing that it should be quick to get up and running.

Unless of course Tesla in the name futurism decided to over complicate the fuck out of it.

[CaminoRacer]

I wouldn't be surprised.

[12,000 RPM]

Seriously, anything is fair game with them at this point as they buck convention out of a pure need for contrarianism

[GoCougs]

If it's properly fixtured, running a spot welder to the right points isn't too hard. But, that's such a standard automotive thing that it should be quick to get up and running.

Unless of course Tesla in the name futurism decided to over complicate the fuck out of it.

Proper fixturing is only a part of it. Weld time and the like is a big part of it too. This is from a Model S tear down; they are running weld beads, which of course a robot will be 10-100x better at:

[Soup DeVille]

Proper fixturing is only a part of it. Weld time and the like is a big part of it too. This is from a Model S tear down; they are running weld beads, which of course a robot will be 10-100x better at:

Oh, welding has other aspects to it other than fixturing? I had no clue.

Jesus dude, can you play Capt. Obvious any harder?

[MrH]

I called this right when the model 3 was announced. They are not good at operations or supply chain. The funny part: Tesla legitimately thinks all of their suppliers are ready to go full steam ahead. It's just going to be bottleneck after bottleneck as they try and ramp up.

Suppliers can't afford such wishy washy launch timing and volumes. Undoubtedly all that capacity that's sitting ideal will be used for other programs as suppliers wait for Tesla to get their shit together. And just when they think they're set, another supplier will show a massive inability to supply. Total train wreck

[ifcar]

I don't buy the "hand assembly" labor line. If the Model 3 is anywhere near the sophistication of a car from a legit automaker, it's simply not possible - paint, welding, etc., cannot be replicated by hand. At most only it's only some of the non-critical processes that are "hand assembly" such as moving bodies between welding stations and the like.

Every automaker builds early prototypes in a form of hand assembly, no? It sounds like Tesla is handling lots of its "launch" like a normal automaker would handle prototypes, which has also been in evidence from other aspects of the process (like providing the first "production" cars almost exclusively to Tesla staff).

[GoCougs]

Oh, welding has other aspects to it other than fixturing? I had no clue.

Jesus dude, can you play Capt. Obvious any harder?

Sure can!

Devising a manual welding process to replace a welding robot would be very hard and time consuming, and be woefully lacking in quality and throughput.

[Soup DeVille]

Every automaker builds early prototypes in a form of hand assembly, no? It sounds like Tesla is handling lots of its "launch" like a normal automaker would handle prototypes, which has also been in evidence from other aspects of the process (like providing the first "production" cars almost exclusively to Tesla staff).

Yes they do, even after the body-in-white phase, many prototypes are built up piecemeal by equipment that is still not been integrated into the final assembly line.