Tesla

Started by SJ_GTI, February 23, 2017, 07:11:02 AM

Char

Quote from: 565 on December 26, 2012, 09:13:44 AM
... Nissan needs to use these shocks on the GT-R.  It would be like the Incredible Hulk wielding Thor's hammer.... unstoppable.

AutobahnSHO

Boo I was hoping for some entertaining haterade.
Will

Morris Minor

This touches on the Model 3 (& why they're in self-described "production hell")
https://youtu.be/h97fXhDN5qE
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Char

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 24, 2017, 10:07:20 AM
This touches on the Model 3 (& why they're in self-described "production hell")
https://youtu.be/h97fXhDN5qE

Because it's a shitty car that will fail? Just a guess.
Quote from: 565 on December 26, 2012, 09:13:44 AM
... Nissan needs to use these shocks on the GT-R.  It would be like the Incredible Hulk wielding Thor's hammer.... unstoppable.

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 24, 2017, 10:07:20 AM
This touches on the Model 3 (& why they're in self-described "production hell")
https://youtu.be/h97fXhDN5qE

It's nothing new.  His idea is basically vertically integrate everything so he can beat everybody on cost.  And this is the problem with Tesla.  It's really arrogant to think he can reinvent the wheel at every stage of the process.  It makes more sense in rockets, where there's less competition and nobody is really vertically integrated.  Automotive is a different world.

He's already starting at a disadvantage.  Electric cars are more costly to produce than gasoline cars.  Not only do you have to learn how to beat somebody like Toyota, literally the creators of the Toyota Production System, at their own game, but you have to beat them handily to be able to get an electric car down in cost enough to compete with the gasoline cars.

It's not like the other OEMs haven't weighed the benefits of in sourcing some of these things too.  "Production hell" is just the growing pains of Tesla trying to become the expert in everything.  And quite simply, they don't have the resources or expertise to get there fast enough IMO.  This is why they can't launch a program on time to save their life.

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CaminoRacer

Quote from: MrH on October 24, 2017, 11:47:33 AM
It's nothing new.  His idea is basically vertically integrate everything so he can beat everybody on cost.  And this is the problem with Tesla.  It's really arrogant to think he can reinvent the wheel at every stage of the process.  It makes more sense in rockets, where there's less competition and nobody is really vertically integrated.  Automotive is a different world.

He's already starting at a disadvantage.  Electric cars are more costly to produce than gasoline cars.  Not only do you have to learn how to beat somebody like Toyota, literally the creators of the Toyota Production System, at their own game, but you have to beat them handily to be able to get an electric car down in cost enough to compete with the gasoline cars.

It's not like the other OEMs haven't weighed the benefits of in sourcing some of these things too.  "Production hell" is just the growing pains of Tesla trying to become the expert in everything.  And quite simply, they don't have the resources or expertise to get there fast enough IMO.  This is why they can't launch a program on time to save their life.



I could have cut that video down to 5 seconds. "Tesla is vertically integrating its production to cut costs."
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MrH

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2017, 12:06:56 PM
I could have cut that video down to 5 seconds. "Tesla is vertically integrating its production to cut costs."

Well, if you want to be more descriptive, you could say, "Tesla is trying to vertically integrate its production to cut costs and is failing spectacularly.  See every quarterly report and Model 3 delivery numbers" :lol:
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GoCougs

The problem with vertical integration is things tend to move very slowly, particularly product development. The Model S is a MY2012 car and despite being seven years old, there is no replacement in sight. Competitors introduce new models every 5-7 years because they offload a significant amount of work to suppliers, who work in parallEl.

I want to like Musk but he just isn't good at the actual business side of things. His goal, and much of the goal of tech these days, is to "do cool stuff" independent of sound business fundamentals, simply adding to the unrealistic expectations of tech (ergo, the ginormous tech bubble).

CaminoRacer

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AutobahnSHO

Quote from: GoCougs on October 24, 2017, 12:16:16 PM
The problem with vertical integration is things tend to move very slowly, particularly product development. The Model S is a MY2012 car and despite being seven years old, there is no replacement in sight. Competitors introduce new models every 5-7 years because they offload a significant amount of work to suppliers, who work in parallol.

I want to like Musk but he just isn't good at the actual business side of things. His goal, and much of the goal of tech these days, is to "do cool stuff" independent of sound business fundamentals, simply adding to the unrealistic expectations of tech (ergo, the ginormous tech bubble).

It's like all the other loud-talking "I'm going to shake up the industry!" buffoons before him. Grand plans and ideas, but reality is that complex design/manufacturing is much the same wherever you go. There are reasons behind why industries do what they do..
Will

CaminoRacer

I still like him. At least he's doing cool stuff with his money instead of just building golf courses.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Soup DeVille

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
I still like him. At least he's doing cool stuff with his money instead of just building golf courses.

He's a modern futurist, very much in the same vein as guys like R. Buckminster Fuller or Isambard Brunel. (Although he's largely rehashing old ideas from the futurists of a few decades ago and doesn't really have the engineering acumen of either)

It's worth noting that those guys lost money on nearly everything, and many of their endeavors failed; but that they pushed the state of technology forward in a way more careful businessmen never would have.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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12,000 RPM

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
I still like him. At least he's doing cool stuff with his money instead of just building golf courses.
Shit business is shit business, even if you are spending it all on hookers and blow :lol:

I'm more disappointed in his enablers though. Investors are supposed to be smart
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r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 24, 2017, 04:42:49 PM
Shit business is shit business, even if you are spending it all on hookers and blow :lol:

I'm more disappointed in his enablers though. Investors are supposed to be smart

Hmm, his investers are up 50% YTD
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12,000 RPM

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Morris Minor

#735
I think the next six months are crucial. If they can't deliver on the Model 3, the stock will crater and a rival will jump in & snap them up.
Biggest thing they have going for them is their fan base. Tesla captures people's imaginations, even the imaginations of people who don't care about cars.
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AutobahnSHO

Agree, I see some guy bragging about his. Nothing about how it drives, just "how cool" it is.
Will

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 24, 2017, 08:59:04 PM
I think the next six months are crucial. If they can't deliver on the Model 3, the stock will crater and a rival will jump in & snap them up.
Biggest thing they have going for them is their fan base. Tesla captures people's imaginations, even the imaginations of people who don't care about cars.

I'll go ahead and make a crazy prediction:  They will not hit their production goals in the next 6 months.
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SJ_GTI

Quote from: MrH on October 25, 2017, 06:56:01 AM
I'll go ahead and make a crazy prediction:  They will not hit their production goals in the next 6 months.

:lol:

Tave

Tesla pumped out over 25,000 units during the 3rd quarter when they hit 200 out of a projected 1,500 Model 3s. I doubt it's an assembly issue for them; given that all the deliveries to date have reportedly been to employees and associates, I'd wager they're still trying to finish the final shakedowns on their software.

I saw soooooo many Model Ss in Europe, hell, they're using them for taxi cabs in Holland.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

2o6

Quote from: Tave on October 25, 2017, 03:22:35 PM
Tesla pumped out over 25,000 units during the 3rd quarter when they hit 200 out of a projected 1,500 Model 3s. I doubt it's an assembly issue for them; given that all the deliveries to date have reportedly been to employees and associates, I'd wager they're still trying to finish the final shakedowns on their software.

I saw soooooo many Model Ss in Europe, hell, they're using them for taxi cabs in Holland.


a lot of northern European nations subsidize the fuck out of electric cars to the point where they're much cheaper than a comparable gas "regular" car. I remember reading that at one point, a base Model S was not that much more than a Ford Focus. (Sweden, I think)

Laconian

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Morris Minor

Quote from: 2o6 on October 25, 2017, 03:24:00 PM

a lot of northern European nations subsidize the fuck out of electric cars to the point where they're much cheaper than a comparable gas "regular" car. I remember reading that at one point, a base Model S was not that much more than a Ford Focus. (Sweden, I think)
EVs are popular in Europe (reaction to the disaster that has been diesel), that's why I think it'll be a European manufacturer that will swoop on Tesla.

(Lots more street parking there though so more opportunities for herberts, chavs, thugs, bogans, yobbos, voyoux and other assorted underclasses to wreak havoc on the charging equipment.)
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on October 25, 2017, 03:28:29 PM
Probably Norway.

Per said as much about his Bolt; that it was something less than half the listed price.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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mzziaz

Guys, guys.

Ev's are not cheaper than stateside (in fact they are slightly more expensive). However they are exempt from the taxation of other vehicles, which is high. On top of that, electric power is cheap, and fast charger network is getting pretty good (with the help of govt grants.)

However, a model S has unfortunately never been near the price of a Focus.
Cuore Sportivo

Morris Minor

Quote from: mzziaz on October 25, 2017, 11:30:48 PM
Guys, guys.

Ev's are not cheaper than stateside (in fact they are slightly more expensive). However they are exempt from the taxation of other vehicles, which is high. On top of that, electric power is cheap, and fast charger network is getting pretty good (with the help of govt grants.)

However, a model S has unfortunately never been near the price of a Focus.
The tax breaks will eventually go away as EVs become ubiquitous (governments want the revenue), so that will be a headwind. However the argument will be that the EV industry got the required kickstart and can now walk unassisted.
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mzziaz

Yes, that is pretty much the argument.
Cuore Sportivo

MrH

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12,000 RPM

The spin on this one should be entertaining
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Raza

I would not get into a car that has a large Samsung battery. I want to live.
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