Star Trek or Star Wars?

Started by 12,000 RPM, May 15, 2017, 06:18:47 AM

12,000 RPM

You can only pick one, and there is a right and wrong answer.
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MX793

Rebooted Star Trek film series aside, they aren't really comparable.  One is serious SciFi and the other a space opera.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on May 15, 2017, 06:28:13 AM
Rebooted Star Trek film series aside, they aren't really comparable.  One is serious SciFi and the other a space opera.

Semi-serious sci-fi. They make a lot of shit up to drive plot points or make statements.

They're comparable because they are both arguably the biggest science fiction enterprises in pop culture, and their names sound the same.

If I have to pick, I'll go with Star Trek.
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Raza

Star Wars, of course.  The only good things about Star Trek were TNG and the rebooted movies. 
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MX793

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 06:38:24 AM
Semi-serious sci-fi. They make a lot of shit up to drive plot points or make statements.

They're comparable because they are both arguably the biggest science fiction enterprises in pop culture, and their names sound the same.

If I have to pick, I'll go with Star Trek.

There's very little science in Star Wars.  It's a sword & sorcery yarn with space ships and laser guns.
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SJ_GTI

I like both to a degree, but preferred Star Wars.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on May 15, 2017, 07:18:42 AM
There's very little science in Star Wars.  It's a sword & sorcery yarn with space ships and laser guns.

I was calling Trek semi-serious.

Star Wars is populated by magical space wizards.
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Northlands

Star Wars. Star Trek stopped being truly what it was after TNG finished it's series. As bad as a couple of the Star Wars films has been, some of the animated series has turned out ok.



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shp4man

Six of one, half dozen of the other. They're both good. Biggest difference?  May the force be with you.

SJ_GTI

Quote from: Northlands on May 15, 2017, 07:33:41 AM
Star Wars. Star Trek stopped being truly what it was after TNG finished it's series. As bad as a couple of the Star Wars films has been, some of the animated series has turned out ok.

For me the high point of my Star Trek fandom is Deep Space Nine. Best series IMHO and Sisko was the best Captain.  :praise:

giant_mtb

Neither has ever compelled me. 

GoCougs

Star Trek is legit sci-fi (deep, thoughtful, purposeful) and Star Wars is fantasy (light, fluffy, magic). So of course Star Trek by a million miles or more. The separation is the writing, delivery and amount of content.

As to Star Trek, 80% of it is The Next Generation, and then The Original Series, then DS9 and then some of the feature films (the reboots are great, and better than the Star Wars reboots I might add).

I also read The Next Generation books - I've read most of them, I'd say at least 200. The quality has fallen off in recent years unfortunately, no doubt because TNG is but a distant memory and it's not attracting the writing talent.






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2o6

Quote from: MrH on May 15, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
They're both pretty bad :huh:

you don't like anything fun, tho

FoMoJo

Likely one of the few who watched Star Trek when it originally debuted in the '60s so I'm inclined to favour it; it being a giant leap forward in sci-fi entertainment. 

I never really understood the whole concept of Star Wars though I did go with my son to see it when it first came out.  Besides, I never cared much for Princess Leia and her goofy hairdo and considered Luke Skywalker too much of a wimp.  The only character I liked in the whole series was Obi-Wan Kenobi as played by Alec Guinness; and they got rid of him far too quickly.
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Laconian

Star Wars has no character development. You never get to know any given planet for more than 20 minutes at a time. Most of the characters are standins that represent their entire races - they are basically uninteresting as individuals. The names they choose are childish and the morality is unambiguous. Star Trek is the opposite of all that. Trek wins.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 15, 2017, 12:15:42 PM
Likely one of the few who watched Star Trek when it originally debuted in the '60s so I'm inclined to favour it; it being a giant leap forward in sci-fi entertainment. 

I never really understood the whole concept of Star Wars though I did go with my son to see it when it first came out.  Besides, I never cared much for Princess Leia and her goofy hairdo and considered Luke Skywalker too much of a wimp.  The only character I liked in the whole series was Obi-Wan Kenobi as played by Alec Guinness; and they got rid of him far too quickly.

Han Solo was always cool
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FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 12:28:10 PM
Han Solo was always cool
I suppose.  Never as cool as Obi-Wan Kenobi, imo.

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 15, 2017, 12:45:01 PM
I suppose.  Never as cool as Obi-Wan Kenobi, imo.



Alec Guinness hated his role, and thought it was fairy tale nonsense that was going to be the end of George Lucas's career.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
Alec Guinness hated his role, and thought it was fairy tale nonsense that was going to be the end of George Lucas's career.
A couple of his letters, presumably...

I have been offered a movie (20th Cent. Fox) which I may accept, if they come up with proper money. London and N. Africa, starting in mid-March. Science fiction – which gives me pause – but is to be directed by Paul [sic] Lucas who did "American Graffiti, which makes me feel I should. Big part. Fairy-tale rubbish but could be interesting perhaps.

... new rubbish dialogue reaches me every other day on wadges of pink paper – and none of it makes my character clear or even bearable. I just think, thankfully, of the lovely bread, which will help me keep going until next April even if Yahoo collapses in a week ... I must off to studio and work with a dwarf (very sweet – and he has to wash in a bidet) and your fellow countrymen Mark Hamill and Tennyson (that can't be right) Ford. Ellison (? – No!) – well, a rangy, languid young man who is probably intelligent and amusing. But Oh, God, God, they make me feel ninety – and treat me as if I was 106. – Oh, Harrison Ford – ever heard of him?

Still, he elevated the film and, apparently, was appreciative of the money.

Alec Guinness, in many respects, is still my favourite actor.  His role in Bridge on the River Kwai, is unforgettable.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Laconian

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BimmerM3

Wars because it's lighthearted fun where only a small percentage of the fans are snobby about how good or serious or scientific it is, as opposed to a huge percentage of Trek fans.

93JC

Quote from: SJ_GTI on May 15, 2017, 07:36:47 AM
For me the high point of my Star Trek fandom is Deep Space Nine. Best series IMHO and Sisko was the best Captain.  :praise:

Yeah, it's difficult to ask "Star Trek vs. Star Wars?" and not elaborate further, because both properties have had their names attached to schlock.

The only Trek really worth one's time were:


  • the original series, simply for having been there first (although if you're a fan and have never seen the film Forbidden Planet from 1956 you'll be amazed at similar it was to Star Trek despite being a decade older)
  • The Next Generation
  • Deep Space Nine

Voyager and Enterprise had their moments, but overall were a step far below the aforementioned. The movies were hit or miss: over time I've come to appreciate The Motion Picture more but it is still inescapably a snooze-fest, The Wrath of Khan is classic, The Search for Spock is meh, The Voyage Home was funny, The Final Frontier was not, The Undiscovered Country was a great send-off for the aged group from the TV show, Generations was meh, First Contact was great, Insurrection was meh and Nemesis was flat-out bad. The new movies are utterly forgettable.

On that basis can I really say "Star Trek!" when asked this question? It's pretty hard to make the argument when a lot of it, looking back, was mediocre at best.

But, on the other hand, I can't in good conscience just exclaim "Star Wars!" either. Can anyone, given the 'prequel' trilogy's existence? "Episodes" I, II and III sullied the rest of the films; they told a story—that we'd already known the outcome to decades before—so poorly that they dragged the old movies down with them. They are just unabashedly awful in a way no Star Trek property ever sank to.

If you'd asked this question when I was a little kid I would have probably said Star Wars. If you'd asked this question in the mid '90s I'd probably say Star Trek. If you asked this question of me about 15 years ago I probably would have sheepishly tried to answer "both" but deep down I would have meant "neither", sadly. Now? I loved Rogue One, which I cannot say of the new Trek movies, but The Force Awakens was merely okay (which was enough, at the time). I don't have high hopes for the new Star Trek series that 's supposedly coming out in the fall, and I'm keeping my expectations low for The Last Jedi too. Looking back on it all The Empire Strikes Back was a higher 'high' than any Trek property, but overall there's much more good 'Trek' out there than 'Wars'.

Laconian

I agree with most of what you said.

They are hard to compare. TNG and DS9 deliver hundreds of hours of quality entertainment, interrupted by some shitty holodeck or time travel non-plots. Star Wars is just some movies motivated by the usual three-act story arcs. I hear the Clone Wars series is pretty good, but I haven't seen more than a couple episodes.
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MX793

Quote from: 93JC on May 15, 2017, 05:14:40 PM
Yeah, it's difficult to ask "Star Trek vs. Star Wars?" and not elaborate further, because both properties have had their names attached to schlock.

The only Trek really worth one's time were:


  • the original series, simply for having been there first (although if you're a fan and have never seen the film Forbidden Planet from 1956 you'll be amazed at similar it was to Star Trek despite being a decade older)
  • The Next Generation
  • Deep Space Nine

Voyager and Enterprise had their moments, but overall were a step far below the aforementioned. The movies were hit or miss: over time I've come to appreciate The Motion Picture more but it is still inescapably a snooze-fest, The Wrath of Khan is classic, The Search for Spock is meh, The Voyage Home was funny, The Final Frontier was not, The Undiscovered Country was a great send-off for the aged group from the TV show, Generations was meh, First Contact was great, Insurrection was meh and Nemesis was flat-out bad. The new movies are utterly forgettable.

On that basis can I really say "Star Trek!" when asked this question? It's pretty hard to make the argument when a lot of it, looking back, was mediocre at best.

But, on the other hand, I can't in good conscience just exclaim "Star Wars!" either. Can anyone, given the 'prequel' trilogy's existence? "Episodes" I, II and III sullied the rest of the films; they told a story—that we'd already known the outcome to decades before—so poorly that they dragged the old movies down with them. They are just unabashedly awful in a way no Star Trek property ever sank to.

If you'd asked this question when I was a little kid I would have probably said Star Wars. If you'd asked this question in the mid '90s I'd probably say Star Trek. If you asked this question of me about 15 years ago I probably would have sheepishly tried to answer "both" but deep down I would have meant "neither", sadly. Now? I loved Rogue One, which I cannot say of the new Trek movies, but The Force Awakens was merely okay (which was enough, at the time). I don't have high hopes for the new Star Trek series that 's supposedly coming out in the fall, and I'm keeping my expectations low for The Last Jedi too. Looking back on it all The Empire Strikes Back was a higher 'high' than any Trek property, but overall there's much more good 'Trek' out there than 'Wars'.


Also on the Star Wars front were the spin-off TV series, which were also hit or miss (more hit than miss, IMO).  The original Droids and Ewoks animated series from the mid-80s weren't particularly good.  Both Clone Wars animated series (the mini-series of shorts by Genndy Tartakovsky and the longer running CGI series) were excellent.  The newer Rebels series hasn't been quite as good as its immediate predecessors (the best episodes are as good as anything from The Clone Wars series, but not as consistently good), but is decent.
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Soup DeVille

FWIW, the Forbidden Planet was intended as a sci-if adaptation of Shakespeare's The Tempest, and it holds up pretty well even today.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on May 15, 2017, 05:25:21 PM
I agree with most of what you said.

They are hard to compare. TNG and DS9 deliver hundreds of hours of quality entertainment, interrupted by some shitty holodeck or time travel non-plots. Star Wars is just some movies motivated by the usual three-act story arcs. I hear the Clone Wars series is pretty good, but I haven't seen more than a couple episodes.

I would put Wrath of Khan on the same shelf as The Empire Strikes Back.
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Rupert

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 07:30:09 AM
I was calling Trek semi-serious.

Star Wars is populated by magical space wizards.

Q
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Rupert

Quote from: Laconian on May 15, 2017, 12:19:10 PM
Star Wars has no character development. You never get to know any given planet for more than 20 minutes at a time. Most of the characters are standins that represent their entire races - they are basically uninteresting as individuals. The names they choose are childish and the morality is unambiguous. Star Trek is the opposite of all that. Trek wins.

The morality is unambiguous only if you don't think about it (and take some Lucas-fault liberties in the process), and the characters don't need a lot of development because they're archetypes that have already been developed over 5000 years. In the TV shows, there is substantially more development, though, because it's such a longer form format.
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Rupert

Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 15, 2017, 03:31:00 PM
Wars because it's lighthearted fun where only a small percentage of the fans are snobby about how good or serious or scientific it is, as opposed to a huge percentage of Trek fans.

:clap: :clap:
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