The $35,000 Hot Hatch question

[SVT_Power]

RS is too boy racer and has a douche vibe about it.

Sounds right up your alley

[FoMoJo]

Both engines were banned from NASCAR in '65 because they weren't street engines - after the Hemi's domination in '64, NASCAR did not want one or two very expensive engines developed for racing, and then forced into a token number of street cars, dominating the field. That changed in '66 when Chrysler offered the 426 Hemi as a legit option in multiple factory-produced cars. The SOHC 427 was simply too expensive to do so, ergo, it never competed in NASCAR (and the Hemi went on to change the face of not only NASCAR but of drag racing and the muscle car era in general).

The 427 FE had virtually identical bore and stroke, heads were the same size, plus it had the SOHC hardware. Simply look at the width of the intake manifold. The Hemi was called the "elephant" for good reason, but it was smaller than the SOHC 427:

The HEMI had a year in NASCAR before it was banned, the SOHC "sock" motor didn't even get in.  As for expense, it was pretty cheap to make as it used the FE 427 block and required only the heads to be specialized; much like the HEMI, the only difference being that the FE block was rigid enough to sustain the additional stresses without breaking.

As for weight, the FE SOHC 427 weighed just 10 lbs. more than the FE 427 high riser whereas the HEMI was almost 100 lbs. heavier.  This was simply because when bolting the the heads to the existing block, the block kept cracking from the additional stresses; so they just kept adding more iron to it until it didn't break.  For that matter, the FE was more of a mid size rather than a big block with a thin wall design that was precision engineered; but limited the displacement.

Not being allowed by NASCAR, the obvious alternative was the drag strip; where it, eventually, blew everything else off the track.

[GoCougs]

OH NO

IMO DSG is the way to go for the Golf R.

[Payman]

OH NO

IMO DSG is the way to go for the Golf R.

Let me guess... because it's faster 0-60. 

[GoCougs]

The HEMI had a year in NASCAR before it was banned, the SOHC "sock" motor didn't even get in.  As for expense, it was pretty cheap to make as it used the FE 427 block and required only the heads to be specialized; much like the HEMI, the only difference being that the FE block was rigid enough to sustain the additional stresses without breaking.

As for weight, the FE SOHC 427 weighed just 10 lbs. more than the FE 427 high riser whereas the HEMI was almost 100 lbs. heavier.  This was simply because when bolting the the heads to the existing block, the block kept cracking from the additional stresses; so they just kept adding more iron to it until it didn't break.  For that matter, the FE was more of a mid size rather than a big block with a thin wall design that was precision engineered; but limited the displacement.

Not being allowed by NASCAR, the obvious alternative was the drag strip; where it, eventually, blew everything else off the track.

Casting a block is cheap - whether it's an existing block or a new block. There was a lot of cost in the all the additional hardware to run OHCs - gears, chains, cams, bearings. Proof's in the pudding - if it was all that and a bag of chips, and was cost effective to produce, Ford would have produced it, despite not qualifying for NASCAR.

It weighs at least 100 lbs more than a standard FE - maybe even 150 lbs - the heads are ginormous and all that OHC gear is steel. The Hemi was designed from the ground up as a mega hp racing engine. The 427 SOHC was modifying a passenger car engine from the '50s. It's not "precision" engineering it's design for intent and the Hemi went on to change NASCAR, drag racing and the muscle car era.

427 SOHC undressed/dressed:

[GoCougs]

Let me guess... because it's faster 0-60. 

The Golf R has a fair amount of lag.

Thanks for the easy W.

[FoMoJo]

Casting a block is cheap - whether it's an existing block or a new block. There was a lot of cost in the all the additional hardware to run OHCs - gears, chains, cams, bearings. Proof's in the pudding - if it was all that and a bag of chips, and was cost effective to produce, Ford would have produced it, despite not qualifying for NASCAR.

It weighs at least 100 lbs more than a standard FE - maybe even 150 lbs - the heads are ginormous and all that OHC gear is steel. The Hemi was designed from the ground up as a mega hp racing engine. The 427 SOHC was modifying a passenger car engine from the '50s. It's not "precision" engineering it's design for intent and the Hemi went on to change NASCAR, drag racing and the muscle car era.

So uninformed ...http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html

Ford FE big block          650         (332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block          670     (1) ('59 352 CID)
Ford FE                          625     (48)
Ford 427 SOHC             680     (48)

[GoCougs]

So uninformed ...http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html

Ford FE big block          650         (332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block          670     (1) ('59 352 CID)
Ford FE                          625     (48)
Ford 427 SOHC             680     (48)

Nah, simply look at the pics:

427 SOHC long block undressed:


FE OHV long block undressed:


427 SOHC long block dressed:


FE OHV long block dressed:


427 SOHC in '70 Mustang:


FE OHV in '69 Mustang:

[MX793]

A lot of that added volume from the heads was empty space.  The 427 cammer was largely the same as the regular 427 side-oiler other than the heads.  Heads don't add 150 lbs.

For comparison, the 4.0L OHV Cologne V6 weighs within a few lbs of the SOHC version.  The OHC conversion of that motor was similar to the 427 cammer (idler shaft in place of the in-block cam with SOHC heads slapped on top).  '97 Explorer XL 2WD with the OHV motor has the same listed curb weight as the 2WD SOHC "Limited" model.

[BimmerM3]

Wait, did Cougs just use pictures as evidence of a weight difference between engines? 

[MX793]

Wait, did Cougs just use pictures as evidence of a weight difference between engines? 

It takes up more space, it's gotta weigh more!

[GoCougs]

No offense guys, but you don't stand a chance . Jesus, firstly, before tumbling down this rabbit hole, just look at the pictures.

Take engine block A, modify it a bit, and then put on far larger heads, with cams, gears, chain and the larger intake to bridge the larger gap, full well knowing everything is made out of either cast iron and steel, and you get a larger, heavier engine:

Larger heads:  25 lbs ea
Additional gears, chain, and larger timing cover:  25 lbs
Larger intake manifold:  10 lbs
Additional cams, mounting and valve gear:  15 lbs
Minus lifters and push rods: -10 lbs

So, ~100 lbs heavier.

[Payman]

Good morning fellow townfolk! What's new in the village today?

No offense guys, but you don't stand a chance . Jesus, firstly, before tumbling down this rabbit hole, just look at the pictures.

Take engine block A, modify it a bit, and then put on far larger heads, with cams, gears, chain and the larger intake to bridge the larger gap, full well knowing everything is made out of either cast iron and steel, and you get a larger, heavier engine:

Larger heads:  25 lbs ea
Additional gears, chain, and larger timing cover:  25 lbs
Larger intake manifold:  10 lbs
Additional cams, mounting and valve gear:  15 lbs
Minus lifters and push rods: -10 lbs

So, ~100 lbs heavier.

Nevermind.

[r0tor]

Hmm..

This apple


Is clearly smaller and lighter then this orange


Pay attention people - shrug-

[SVT_Power]

Classic cougs.

[GoCougs]

No offense, but you guys don't stand a chance .

[giant_mtb]

No offense, but you guys don't stand a chance .

What does that even mean. I have no skin in this argument, but you can't expect to be taken seriously by pulling numbers out of your ass.

[FoMoJo]

No offense, but you guys don't stand a chance .

When Einstein said "Imagination is more important than knowledge", it can be assumed that he did not mean you should try to counter fact with what you imagine something to be.  Also, when he said "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts", he was being sarcastic.

In comparison, the street hemi weighed approximately 850 lbs.

[GoCougs]

What does that even mean. I have no skin in this argument, but you can't expect to be taken seriously by pulling numbers out of your ass.

I am correct and anyone that disagrees with me is wrong, and those with a bit of knowledge know it:  the 427 SOHC is notably larger, heavier and more expensive than the 427 FE OHV.

[FoMoJo]

I am correct and anyone that disagrees with me is wrong, and those with a bit of knowledge know it:  the 427 SOHC is notably larger, heavier and more expensive than the 427 FE OHV.

Despite the Cammer's exotic cachet, in reality the engine was simply a two-valve, single-overhead-cam conversion of Ford's existing 427 FE V8, and a quick and cheap one at that. Inside the company, the Cammer was known as the "90 day wonder," a low-investment parallel project to the expensive DOHC Indy engine based on the Ford small-block V8.  To save time and money on the conversion, the heads were cast iron and the cam drive was a roller chain. The oiling system was revised and to manage the greater horizontal inertia loads generated by the increased rpm, cross-bolted main caps were incorporated into the block casting. These features were then adopted on all 427 CID engines across the board

The engines were essentially hand-built for racing, with combustion chambers fully machined to reduce variability. Nevertheless, Ford recommended blueprinting before use in racing applications. With a single four-barrel carburetor they weighed 680 lb (308 kg)[37] and were rated at 616 horsepower (459 kW) at 7,000 rpm & 515 lb·ft (698 N·m) of torque @ 3,800 rpm, with dual four-barrel carburetors 657 horsepower (490 kW) at 7,500 rpm & 575 lb·ft (780 N·m) of torque @ 4,200 rpm. Ford sold them via the parts counter, the single four-barrel model as part C6AE-6007-363S, the dual carburetor model as part C6AE-6007-359J for $2350.00 (as of October, 1968).

[MX793]

Despite the Cammer's exotic cachet, in reality the engine was simply a two-valve, single-overhead-cam conversion of Ford's existing 427 FE V8, and a quick and cheap one at that. Inside the company, the Cammer was known as the "90 day wonder," a low-investment parallol project to the expensive DOHC Indy engine based on the Ford small-block V8.  To save time and money on the conversion, the heads were cast iron and the cam drive was a roller chain. The oiling system was revised and to manage the greater horizontal inertia loads generated by the increased rpm, cross-bolted main caps were incorporated into the block casting. These features were then adopted on all 427 CID engines across the board

The engines were essentially hand-built for racing, with combustion chambers fully machined to reduce variability. Nevertheless, Ford recommended blueprinting before use in racing applications. With a single four-barrel carburetor they weighed 680 lb (308 kg)[37] and were rated at 616 horsepower (459 kW) at 7,000 rpm & 515 lb·ft (698 N·m) of torque @ 3,800 rpm, with dual four-barrel carburetors 657 horsepower (490 kW) at 7,500 rpm & 575 lb·ft (780 N·m) of torque @ 4,200 rpm. Ford sold them via the parts counter, the single four-barrel model as part C6AE-6007-363S, the dual carburetor model as part C6AE-6007-359J for $2350.00 (as of October, 1968).

Don't bring numerical supporting evidence here.  Just look at the pictures.  The Cammer is way bigger.  It must weigh at least 150-200 lbs more with all of that extra iron.

[Payman]

Man, I haven't seen a old guy do a slap down like this since George Foreman. 

[GoCougs]

Despite the Cammer's exotic cachet, in reality the engine was simply a two-valve, single-overhead-cam conversion of Ford's existing 427 FE V8, and a quick and cheap one at that. Inside the company, the Cammer was known as the "90 day wonder," a low-investment parallol project to the expensive DOHC Indy engine based on the Ford small-block V8.  To save time and money on the conversion, the heads were cast iron and the cam drive was a roller chain. The oiling system was revised and to manage the greater horizontal inertia loads generated by the increased rpm, cross-bolted main caps were incorporated into the block casting. These features were then adopted on all 427 CID engines across the board

The engines were essentially hand-built for racing, with combustion chambers fully machined to reduce variability. Nevertheless, Ford recommended blueprinting before use in racing applications. With a single four-barrel carburetor they weighed 680 lb (308 kg)[37] and were rated at 616 horsepower (459 kW) at 7,000 rpm & 515 lb·ft (698 N·m) of torque @ 3,800 rpm, with dual four-barrel carburetors 657 horsepower (490 kW) at 7,500 rpm & 575 lb·ft (780 N·m) of torque @ 4,200 rpm. Ford sold them via the parts counter, the single four-barrel model as part C6AE-6007-363S, the dual carburetor model as part C6AE-6007-359J for $2350.00 (as of October, 1968).

I can cut-n-paste too from wherever. But you're still wrong, and that's okay, because that's what makes the 'SPIN the 'SPIN .

Now you get to explain away why Ford obsoleted the glorious FE and SOHC in favor of the 385 series, particularly the Boss 429. Go ahead, I know a lot about that as well  .

[FoMoJo]

I can cut-n-paste too from wherever. But you're still wrong, and that's okay, because that's what makes the 'SPIN the 'SPIN .

Now you get to explain away why Ford obsoleted the glorious FE and SOHC in favor of the 385 series, particularly the Boss 429. Go ahead, I know a lot about that as well  .

Well, let's hear what you know.

[GoCougs]

Well, let's hear what you know.

Oh, I think I've earned the privilege to request a performance (at least partially blame the flitting chatterings of the 'SPIN peanut gallery).

[FoMoJo]

Oh, I think I've earned the privilege to request a performance (at least partially blame the flitting chatterings of the 'SPIN peanut gallery).

Perform then.

[giant_mtb]

[12,000 RPM]

The Golf R has a fair amount of lag.

Thanks for the easy W.

So you're gonna do launch control from every stop?

[GoCougs]

So you're gonna do launch control from every stop?

Drive the Golf R.

[GoCougs]

Perform then.

Well, it's the same reason why an motor is replaced - it was old.

The FE dates back to the '50s, and was the contemporary of the first gen Hemi and Chevy W block. By the time '65 rolled around, Mopar moved onto the second gen 426 Hemi and the later iterations of the RB motor (383/440), and Chevy debuted the Mark IV big block. Ford saw the light at the end of the tunnel - the FE could not compete with these motors, especially if the horsepower wars were to continue.

Enter the 385 series debuting in 1968 - beefier block, longer rods, bigger values, better head design (canted valves), larger crank/rod bearings. As we know now, not long after the 385 was introduced the muscle car era was over, and performance versions of the 385 - Boss 429, 429 CJ, 429 SCJ - never quite got off the ground, and the FE lived on well into the '70s.