A practical CUV for her *** Thread update, Rotor’s worst nightmare realized ***

[Lebowski]

Right now, Bree drives the 4Runner (2010, ~95k miles, purchased Dec 2009) and obviously I drive the M3 (2015, 17k miles, took delivery Oct 2014).  She drives a lot more miles than I do, I'm guessing ~25k miles/yr vs my ~6k miles/yr.  Her commute is 20-25 miles each way depending on route, mine is ~1.5 miles. We both like the 4Runner, she likes driving it but I feel like given the mileage is getting up there and how much more she commutes, it would make sense for her to drive something newer and more economical.

So we are considering getting something new for her, I'd drive the 4Runner and sell the M3. I'll address thoughts on selling the M3 below this post, as that's sort of a separate topic altogether.  And of course we might not end up doing anything.

So criteria are basically something with enough space to fit a carseat and another child, as well as a stroller and sometimes two dogs (one large and one midget german shepherd), but at the same time is not something stupidly large for a single person to commute in alone.  That said, she likes driving an SUV, so my inclination to look towards hatches or wagons didn't get much traction.  Price, no hard limit but we are value conscious and sort of anchoring to the $30k range as that's where the options below end up well equipped and fit our needs, so anything above that range would need to offer something objective in return.  30+ highway mpg would be nice.  Good reliability, safe, the typical mom shit.

To start out we test drove the Mazda CX-5 and Honda CRV.  Based on reviews I had narrowed these two as the top of the shortlist.  Reviewers tend to favor the CX-5 as the better "drivers car" of the two (to the extent a CUV can be), and I went in sort of hoping/expecting to prefer the CX-5, liked the looks better too going in.  I did not drive either, she drove and I rode shotgun.  Test drove the top trim of both (Grand Touring in the Mazda and Touring in the Honda) in FWD (don't really see a need for AWD).  After looking at / test driving both back to back, we came away both thinking the CRV was the clear winner between the two.  First the bad - CRV is not a great looking car by any stretch, some angles are better than others (front isn't bad at all and from the front actually prefer the CRV to the CX-5), and the OEM wheels on the upper trims are horrendous.  There is turbo lag (which she noticed) and it's a CVT (she didn't seem to notice or care).  And it's just, well, a boring choice.  But from a packaging standpoint, it's pretty impressive ... interior space was excellent, significantly better than the CX-5, back seat room was surprisingly good for a "small" SUV (CX-5 rear seat wasn't bad, but clearly less spacious).  Cargo capacity, w/ seats both up and down, was also excellent for a "small" SUV, less than the 4Runner but not by nearly as much as I expected, and way more than the CX-5.  Interiors in both, for the price, was IMO very good to excellent.  Most reviewers seem to give the nod to the CX-5 here, we both preferred the interior in the CRV.  Materials on both were very good.  CRV front seats look and felt great.  Infotainment/tech in both seemed very good though we didn't play around with it much, CRV has Apple Carplay, the CX-5 does not but supposedly is getting it via firmware update at some point.  I started w/ styling and will revisit, I went in preferring the CX-5 but the more I look at them, I do think the CX-5 looks like it's trying a little harder, both inside and out, and IMO some of the older Mazda SUV/CUVs on the road don't look too good to me, I feel like the CRV is more conservative and will age better and just sort of blends in.  Resale and reliability I feel like Honda will be the better of the two.  CX-5 is a bit cheaper, both are in the ~$30k range well equipped.  There's a Honda service center that's like a mile from our house and walkable to my office which is nice.  Gas mileage pretty good in both, better in the Honda (EPA 34mpg highway and reviews seem to confirm that in observed mpg).


Am I missing anything else we should look at?  Again, she doesn't seem to want to consider a hatch or wagon which is the direction I would go if it were entirely up to me.  We didn't look at the Rav4 as we had one as a rental a few months ago and both thought it was a piece of shit, from reviews it looks like the OEM tires may have contributed to that, but either way it's also significantly older and looks and feels it compared to the two above.  The Highlander isn't bad, but as we'll be keeping the 4Runner I don't think we need to go up to that size category.  Escape, also a bit dated and from reviews seems like we're not missing anything there.  She doesn't want a Subaru, and Forrester reviews aren't good enough for me to feel like that's leaving out anything special.  On the intro luxury options, meh I don't really see a lot there to justify spending more esp given the mainstreamers above seem to offer all the "luxury" she really wants in terms of interior comfort and materials and infotainment/tech.  I don't really see what an X1 or F-Pace offers other than brand image, though admittedly haven't driven them, some of my comments on the M3 below will apply here as well.  Also consider she drives ~25k miles/yr and I prefer to keep cars awhile, meaning this will conceivably be a car we keep for 150k miles or so and I really don't consider BMW, Jag, or Land Rover to be cars I'd want to own for 150k miles. 

On buying used, I acknowledge the superior value but don't want to bother with it.

Flame suit on, I'll probably bet banned for this thread.

[Lebowski]

On selling the M3 ... I like the car, and at not quite 3 years would be significantly less than I normally keep cars (fuck, a taste of how H feels).  But honestly the thing is completely wasted on me.  I don't track my cars.  My daily commute is 5 minutes through a residential neighborhood, half of which is brick streets.  The rest of my driving, 99% of the time yields pretty close to zero opportunity for any sort of spirited driving - sitting in traffic, stoplight to stoplight, or best case highway cruising w/ cruise control on.  When we go on longer trips where there might be an opportunity for more fun driving, we take the 4runner.  Honestly the best part of owning the thing was picking it up and the drive through SC and NC then home.  I just feel like owning a completely unutilized performance car is a waste, as boring as the vast majority of my driving is there's no point.  So fuck it, sell the thing while it's still got a year of warranty left.  KBB is ~$50k, not sure how realistic that is.  Paid just over $70k IIRC (I think $72k).

Kevin has posted here a few times recently on the topic of hedonistic adaptation (or treadmill) when it comes to consumer purchases.  I've been giving some thought to this myself the last couple years, and a luxury or high end car purchase is pretty much the definition of it.  If you track your cars that's different IMO, similarly if I lived in an area w/ more opportunities for fun driving around me I'd feel different.  But a monotonous drive through traffic is just as boring in a 400+hp, $70k M car as it is in a Honda Fit.  At this point, I don't really see any value to it or really any high end car.  I still like cars, still like watching/reading car reviews, still like driving when it's in a setting that's fun.  I'd like to do a 2-3 day driving school and could see myself doing that once or twice a year (been saying that for years though and haven't done one).  But for my daily putzing around town, to work and to the grocery store, I'm pretty much indifferent between taking the 4runner and the M3 most of time time.  And IMO there's something to be said about having a car you don't feel like you have to baby - I'll run the 4runner through a commercial car wash without batting an eye, I'll hand the keys to the valet w/o cringing, if it gets dinged in a parking lot I don't care.


I like it, but I don't see myself missing it.   

[ifcar]

The CR-V is a master of functionality, no doubt about that, and it's not really terrible at anything either. But there are a few cute utes that are probably worth considering:

- 2018 Chevrolet Equinox. The CR-V is the better deal, gets better mileage and has more cargo room, but the Equinox feels upscale to me -- cushier, quieter, more stylish. There's also an available up-sized engine if the CR-V turbo lag is bothersome.

- 2018 VW Tiguan. A third-row seat, even a small one, can be a pretty useful piece of added functionality. Mileage and prices again will trail the CR-V, and it's not considered as fun to drive as the old one, but reviews have otherwise been pretty positive. (I haven't driven one of these yet, though.)

- 2017.5/2018 Nissan Rogue. It's like a better-executed take on the RAV4 -- still a fairly basic feel, but tons of space, smooth ride and simple controls, and with better steering, handling and gas mileage than the Toyota. It's a long shot, probably ruled out as too dull, but it's well-executed in its dullness.


About the M3, it does seem like it's not well-suited to your current conditions. More comfortable and stylish than a Honda Fit, sure, but surely frustrating to drive in those conditions. Maybe the savings from switching from M3 to CR-V will justify an affordable occasional-use fun car -- Miatas are great fun even in otherwise boring conditions, because you actually can flog the engine a bit and you get instantaneous steering response -- but otherwise your calculus seems spot-on.

[giant_mtb]

I think you're shopping the wrong size to be hauling around two kids, their gear, and two dogs.  Good luck fitting a stroller, baby bag, and two dogs in the cargo area of an Escape, CRV, or Rav4.

[AutobahnSHO]

My own thoughts: I like the Honda and the Mazda, both seem great vehicles.

You could 'downgrade' from the M to a Miata and enjoy the (short) drive and Miatas maintain value fairly well for down the road. Bank the rest to buy kids' bikes and eventually a starter car.

EDIT
this assumes you keep the 4Runner for family hauling, sell the M and buy Miata + CUV.

[Lebowski]

Miata would have to be a third car, not something I'm entertaining at this point.  if I were to really miss having a fun car after awhile, maybe, but I don't see that happening.

On the size thing, she doesn't take the dogs with her on a daily basis.  In the rare cases she needed both kids, a stroller, and both dogs at the same time, she could take the 4runner if needed, though I think that would all fit in the CRV (CX5 would be tight).  Edit:  I guess I did put that in the criteria, to clarify that's not a daily loadout and we can always switch cars when needed. Trying to balance having enough space while also not having her drive an Escalade 25 miles each way to teach yoga.

[MexicoCityM3]

As much as an M fanboy that I am, I can't fault your thinking. It definitely seems a waste of resources.

I'd maybe look at CUV's a segment above if you like the luxuries and solidity of your M3. The incoming new X3 may be a great fit, even in 30i guise. Maybe you can get a good deal as a BMW returning customer.

[mzziaz]

Easy.

You take the 4Runner, wifey gets the M3. Problem solved.

[Lebowski]

As much as an M fanboy that I am, I can't fault your thinking. It definitely seems a waste of resources.

I'd maybe look at CUV's a segment above if you like the luxuries and solidity of your M3. The incoming new X3 may be a great fit, even in 30i guise. Maybe you can get a good deal as a BMW returning customer.

X3 is nice but I imagine will be ~$50k optioned out, and doesn't really appeal to me for the same reasons as the others outlined above (ie if a $30k car meets our needs we have better uses for the incremental $20k).  X3 also isn't something I feel super confident in if she'll be putting ~150k miles on it over 6-7 years.  Gas mileage, tires, brakes, insurance etc plus off warranty repairs from a total cost of ownership standpoint over that time the Honda will crush it.

[Lebowski]

The CR-V is a master of functionality, no doubt about that, and it's not really terrible at anything either. But there are a few cute utes that are probably worth considering:

- 2018 Chevrolet Equinox. The CR-V is the better deal, gets better mileage and has more cargo room, but the Equinox feels upscale to me -- cushier, quieter, more stylish. There's also an available up-sized engine if the CR-V turbo lag is bothersome.

- 2018 VW Tiguan. A third-row seat, even a small one, can be a pretty useful piece of added functionality. Mileage and prices again will trail the CR-V, and it's not considered as fun to drive as the old one, but reviews have otherwise been pretty positive. (I haven't driven one of these yet, though.)

- 2017.5/2018 Nissan Rogue. It's like a better-executed take on the RAV4 -- still a fairly basic feel, but tons of space, smooth ride and simple controls, and with better steering, handling and gas mileage than the Toyota. It's a long shot, probably ruled out as too dull, but it's well-executed in its dullness.


About the M3, it does seem like it's not well-suited to your current conditions. More comfortable and stylish than a Honda Fit, sure, but surely frustrating to drive in those conditions. Maybe the savings from switching from M3 to CR-V will justify an affordable occasional-use fun car -- Miatas are great fun even in otherwise boring conditions, because you actually can flog the engine a bit and you get instantaneous steering response -- but otherwise your calculus seems spot-on.

Yeah, those you mention have some pros but overall don't appeal to me too much.  For one, just in terms of reliability and resale value I like Honda a lot better than Chevy, VW, or Nissan. I don't find a third row in this class all that appealing.

Honda Fit comment was hyperbole, but still. Like I said for daily driving I'm pretty indifferent between the 4Runner and the Bimmer.

[CALL_911]

I think what you're saying is a good idea. The new CRV is really nice, and I'd just stick with the 4Runner if I were you. Personally, I would probably keep the M3 just because, but it's most likely more trouble than its worth.

[Lebowski]

Eh, tempting but no.  If the conclusion is it's underutilized I'd rather get some money out of it, not pay to insure/maintain it, and hopefully sell it to someone who will use + appreciate it for what it is.  Also, 2 car garage I'd like to stick to 2 cars.

If it was older and further into the depreciation curve and held more sentimental value, like the C6 did, would be more tempting but still not worth it IMO. 

[GoCougs]

You don't remember how much you paid for a car you bought three years ago? And going from a loaded 4Runner to a CX-5 or the like and from an M3 to a Miata or the like? This is all very interesting. But there is value in slimming down one's life, no matter the how or the why that it seems to come about. But yes, fancy cars have very little if negative utility - it's mostly about the badge, even for fanbois.

CX-5 or the like is too small. You'll need to go for a Highlander or Pilot for the CUV/SUV. On the sporty side of things I'd never recommend a Miata - at least a GTI.

[Cookie Monster]

I know you said no wagons, but what about an Outback? I don't know what the driving position is like compared to the CRV but it has more ground clearance and is comparable in interior room to the CRV. Plus, Kevin really likes his.

[12,000 RPM]

I can't fault your thinking though I agree with giant- those things are gonna be stuffed to the gills with your kids, animals and stuff. Sad to say it may be worth looking at a 3 row belly dragger or *gasp* a minivan. She is already surrendering some cool; she may as well ditch all of it. The practicality will make life so much easier. That said I do like the new CR-V and a set of wheels/tires doesn't cost much in the grand scheme of things. But it's gonna be too small.

As for your car..... that is a bit of a bummer. My commute has some fun, so I can appreciate what the G has to offer. But if my commute sucked I would probably drive something like a Lexus ES or something. That was kind of my thinking when I sold the Z as my commute sucked then. Can't fault you at all. If you liked that experience you should just do those BMW Performance events or whatever they're called. Save your money and get something better suited for your life.

It will suck to open the garage and see something like an Accord EX where an M3 used to be though But that is not worth the $$$ at all.

[2o6]

I know you said no wagons, but what about an Outback? I don't know what the driving position is like compared to the CRV but it has more ground clearance and is comparable in interior room to the CRV. Plus, Kevin really likes his.

It's nice, but it's more sedan-like. The car is physically higher, but the whole driving and seating position is more like the Legacy.

[12,000 RPM]

Yea if a CRV is too small an Outback is a complete no go. Don't prosthelyze

[Cookie Monster]

Yea if a CRV is too small an Outback is a complete no go. Don't prosthelyze

I'm not, the new ones are like a fucking SUV compared to mine/Cale's.

[giant_mtb]

If it would be a rarity that she has to stuff the CUV (like if Lebowski is out of town with the 4Runner), then I guess it wouldn't be TOO big of a deal.

[Lebowski]

You don't remember how much you paid for a car you bought three years ago?

Ballpark sure and is what I said.  Why don't you enlighten us, surely you've got the exact figure in your file?  We all know what great interest this is to you.

And going from a loaded 4Runner to a CX-5 or the like and from an M3 to a Miata or the like? This is all very interesting. But there is value in slimming down one's life, no matter the how or the why that it seems to come about. But yes, fancy cars have very little if negative utility - it's mostly about the badge, even for fanbois.

CX-5 or the like is too small. You'll need to go for a Highlander or Pilot for the CUV/SUV. On the sporty side of things I'd never recommend a Miata - at least a GTI.

You're even more confused than usual, I'm not considering a Miata.

Not sure what you are getting at w/ the going from a "fully loaded" 4Runner comment.  If it's to imply some kind of downgrade, a "fully loaded" 2017 CX-5 or CRV has better interior materials, more content, miles better infotainment, quieter interior, and is overall more comfortable than a 2010 4Runner, loaded or not.

Don't need to go up to highlander or pilot size, I'm not against it if that's what she wants but it's not necessary.

[68_427]

At this price point I don't think you'll find a better all around or space efficient vehicle than the CR-V

[Lebowski]

I can't fault your thinking though I agree with giant- those things are gonna be stuffed to the gills with your kids, animals and stuff. Sad to say it may be worth looking at a 3 row belly dragger or *gasp* a minivan. She is already surrendering some cool; she may as well ditch all of it. The practicality will make life so much easier. That said I do like the new CR-V and a set of wheels/tires doesn't cost much in the grand scheme of things. But it's gonna be too small.

As for your car..... that is a bit of a bummer. My commute has some fun, so I can appreciate what the G has to offer. But if my commute sucked I would probably drive something like a Lexus ES or something. That was kind of my thinking when I sold the Z as my commute sucked then. Can't fault you at all. If you liked that experience you should just do those BMW Performance events or whatever they're called. Save your money and get something better suited for your life.

It will suck to open the garage and see something like an Accord EX where an M3 used to be though But that is not worth the $$$ at all.

She doesn't want a minivan and honestly we don't need something that size but maybe once a year and I'm fine renting for that (and in that case a highlander would be too small too). I'd look at outback wagon but she doesn't want one.


Re all the "wont have enough space" comments I'm talking about going from a 4Runner + 3-series to 4Runner + small SUV.  It's an overall increase in space.

[12,000 RPM]

Ah yea seeing that now in the OP.... yea then it's an absolute no brainer. IF she wants the CR-V she must get the CR-V. Everything else is either overpriced or a needless compromise.

But you will be legally obligated to do 1 BMW AND 1 Porsche driving event annually to retain your enthusiast card. No exceptions

[Lebowski]

Ah yea seeing that now in the OP.... yea then it's an absolute no brainer. IF she wants the CR-V she must get the CR-V. Everything else is either overpriced or a needless compromise.

But you will be legally obligated to do 1 BMW AND 1 Porsche driving event annually to retain your enthusiast card. No exceptions

She doesnt exactly love the CRV but it seems to be the best overall package to fit her/our needs esp taking value into consideration. We could also do nothing but i feel like the M3 is sort of wasted on me, we do need one large-ish (4Runner sized) vehicle in the household but seems it makes more sense for me to daily drive that since I drive much less. We each carry both keys and trade whenever we want.

[Laconian]

What about the fancier CR-V: the RDX?

[Lebowski]

Eh, Acura dealership isn't really located conveniently (and I imagine can't service at Honda?). Not sure what it offers other than badge, esp considering we both thought the CRV interior was perfectly acceptable. Acuras today are just as ugly as hondas 

[Cookie Monster]

You can take an (ordinary) Acura to a Honda dealership.

[CALL_911]

Fuck the RDX. Except for the V6, there's no benefit.

[CALL_911]

Barring the MDX, I don't get why anyone would buy an Acura over its equivalent Honda. Accord>TLX, CRV>RDX, Civic>>>ILX

[ifcar]

What about the fancier CR-V: the RDX?

Fancier version of the old CR-V, that is.