Electric Charging

Started by AutobahnSHO, October 14, 2017, 07:59:01 PM

AutobahnSHO

Finally some news that I've expected...      Shell sees the future in Europe and bought a recharge station company to add to it's rollout.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newmotion-m-a-shell/shell-buys-newmotion-charging-network-in-first-electric-vehicle-deal-idUSKBN1CH1QV

Will

Laconian

It's wise for oil companies to hedge their bets like this. The price of solar and wind are dropping like crazy.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Morris Minor

Suggestion. We should have a CarSPIN board covering EVs (plus I guess plugin hybrids), the technology behind them & their supporting infrastructure.

I was just reading about a new charge point for homes that have PV panels (or even wind generators). It make decisions about sourcing the charge: e.g. whether to favor home-generated juice rather than sending it out to the grid, or maybe save the home generated stuff for the Powerwall and only charge the car with low-tariff off-peak electricity from the grid.

The energy density of batteries is still much lower than that of gasoline; we don't have a Moore's Law ramping up batteries every year as we did for CPUs. but I think that disadvantage is being offset to some extent by smart management controls we're now seeing.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Laconian

The energy density growth curve is still pretty steep. It'll flatten out eventually but we're not there yet. (BTW, Moore's Law for CPUs isn't really a "law" anymore; single-core perf has been flat for years now)

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-battery-energy-density-improves-5-8-per-year-Does-this-represent-an-average-or-is-it-a-consistent-trend-each-year-Do-these-improvements-increase-the-cost-What-has-been-the-trend-if-any-regarding-energy-to-weight-ratio
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Laconian

EV subforum is a great idea BTW. We should deprecate some older less used subforums though, just so we're not spread too thinly.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

12,000 RPM

Also keep in mind that batteries only have to reach ~30% of gasoline's energy density to match up to the average car's efficiency.

I'm still skeptical about a need for on the go charge stations. We already have them in our homes, and utilities can just add higher wattage street charging by upgrading transformers. Heck, through public-private partnerships they could offer quasi subsidized high capacity home charging stations. If the market saturation really reaches critical mass those things wouldn't seem so far fetched.

I think a subforum dedicated to "all things future" in the automotive realm would be pretty cool. I have a bone to pick with that goofy alarmist Malcolm Gladwell piece.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MrH

Quote from: Laconian on October 16, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
EV subforum is a great idea BTW. We should deprecate some older less used subforums though, just so we're not spread too thinly.

Maybe move all of the Guess the Car challenges to the guess the car challenge subforum ;)
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Cookie Monster

Quote from: Laconian on October 16, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
EV subforum is a great idea BTW. We should deprecate some older less used subforums though, just so we're not spread too thinly.

Another step towards becoming an unthusiast forum I see.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

Laconian

Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

Most electric bicycles have a motor in the hub. I'm not sure how I feel about the motor spinning the pedals
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Laconian

Oh, crazy. I wonder what the tradeoff is for that.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

r0tor

Quote from: Laconian on October 16, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
250W, that's like a whopping third of a horsepower. :lol:

That's about what a human can produce -shrug-
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Cookie Monster

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 16, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
Most electric bicycles have a motor in the hub. I'm not sure how I feel about the motor spinning the pedals

No, most of the higher end newer bikes are all mid-drive. Hub drive is clunky and old compared to mid-drive setups.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

giant_mtb

Quote from: Laconian on October 16, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
EV subforum is a great idea BTW. We should deprecate some older less used subforums though, just so we're not spread too thinly.

GTCC doesn't really need to exist anymore.

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 16, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
No, most of the higher end newer bikes are all mid-drive. Hub drive is clunky and old compared to mid-drive setups.

Oh.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Laconian

Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 16, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
No, most of the higher end newer bikes are all mid-drive. Hub drive is clunky and old compared to mid-drive setups.

Sucks to be an early adopter!
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

GoCougs

Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 16, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
No, most of the higher end newer bikes are all mid-drive. Hub drive is clunky and old compared to mid-drive setups.

Correct. Such ebikes (motor on the crank) have been all the rage (inducer) in mountain biking world and from what I can tell, is the way of the ebike going forward. They work well apparently.

Currently, in my area, these are considered motorcycles and cannot be used on trails by law. 250W continuous will have you blowing by 99% of riders (have to pedal for power to be applied).

Cookie Monster

Quote from: GoCougs on October 16, 2017, 09:27:57 PM
Correct. Such ebikes (motor on the crank) have been all the rage (inducer) in mountain biking world and from what I can tell, is the way of the ebike going forward. They work well apparently.

Currently, in my area, these are considered motorcycles and cannot be used on trails by law. 250W continuous will have you blowing by 99% of riders (have to pedal for power to be applied).

Yeah, the mass is centralized more, and it allows you to take advantage of the chainring gearing as well, instead of just the cassette gears as with hub drive. Plus, the wheels are just standard wheels, so removing and installing the rear wheel isn't any different than a regular wheel.

I'm surprised they're considered motorcycles, though. Unlike hub drive, don't mid drive bikes have to be pedaled in order for the assist to work? IOW you can't just sit there without pedaling and have the motor do all the work for you like you can on a hub drive bike, unless there's some different system I'm not aware of.

I can see how it would be irritating to regular MTB'ers, though.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

GoCougs

Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 16, 2017, 09:50:11 PM
Yeah, the mass is centralized more, and it allows you to take advantage of the chainring gearing as well, instead of just the cassette gears as with hub drive. Plus, the wheels are just standard wheels, so removing and installing the rear wheel isn't any different than a regular wheel.

I'm surprised they're considered motorcycles, though. Unlike hub drive, don't mid drive bikes have to be pedaled in order for the assist to work? IOW you can't just sit there without pedaling and have the motor do all the work for you like you can on a hub drive bike, unless there's some different system I'm not aware of.

I can see how it would be irritating to regular MTB'ers, though.

Most trails around here are multi-use - bikers, hikers and horses, and bikers have to yield to the other two. Ebikes scream, esp. on the flat. It's a recipe for a major wreck and could jeopardize biker access.

Raza

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2017, 02:22:32 PM
Suggestion. We should have a CarSPIN board covering EVs (plus I guess plugin hybrids), the technology behind them & their supporting infrastructure.

I was just reading about a new charge point for homes that have PV panels (or even wind generators). It make decisions about sourcing the charge: e.g. whether to favor home-generated juice rather than sending it out to the grid, or maybe save the home generated stuff for the Powerwall and only charge the car with low-tariff off-peak electricity from the grid.

The energy density of batteries is still much lower than that of gasoline; we don't have a Moore's Law ramping up batteries every year as we did for CPUs. but I think that disadvantage is being offset to some extent by smart management controls we're now seeing.

We don't have enough traffic to sustain much of anything outside of the politics forum.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2017, 02:37:33 PM
I'm still skeptical about a need for on the go charge stations. We already have them in our homes

And for the millions of people who live in apartments or homes without garages?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Raza  on October 16, 2017, 10:42:12 PM
And for the millions of people who live in apartments or homes without garages?
At least finish reading the sentence before you rage :lol: I mentioned street charging

Electricity is already decentralized; there is really no need for centralized "charging stations"
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2017, 05:38:18 AM
At least finish reading the sentence before you rage :lol: I mentioned street charging

Electricity is already decentralized; there is really no need for centralized "charging stations"

We considered an electric car because the city will give you a dedicated charging spot in front of your house. But good luck enforcing that in a city; you'd be on the phone with the police asking for cars to be towed more often than you'd be parking where you're supposed to park. Then, when you do park there, you're asking for vandalism.

I really don't think electric charging is viable for anyone who doesn't have their own garage to do it in. Some punk kid would walk around unplugging all the cars all the time if the charging is done outside. Can you imagine? I mean, if we live in a world where someone would smash a windshield for no reason, electric cars are a perfect target for sowing that little brand of punkass chaos.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

giant_mtb

Yeah, some sort of lock that uses the car's key to lock the charger onto the receptacle would be good.  But people can barely be bothered to use keys anymore. So they'd have to make it some internal mechanism like an automatic door look is now.

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: giant_mtb on October 17, 2017, 07:42:51 AM
Yeah, some sort of lock that uses the car's key to lock the charger onto the receptacle would be good.  But people can barely be bothered to use keys anymore. So they'd have to make it some internal mechanism like an automatic door look is now.

Great idea.

But I would guess the money will go more towards private garages with charging as part of the rent (or metered and pay for what you use plus a space).
Will

Cookie Monster

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 17, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Great idea.

But I would guess the money will go more towards private garages with charging as part of the rent (or metered and pay for what you use plus a space).


Building private garages isn't going to help current infrastructure. Plus, from what I've seen around here, most new housing developments are for apartments/condos with no garages.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Raza  on October 17, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
We considered an electric car because the city will give you a dedicated charging spot in front of your house. But good luck enforcing that in a city; you'd be on the phone with the police asking for cars to be towed more often than you'd be parking where you're supposed to park. Then, when you do park there, you're asking for vandalism.

I really don't think electric charging is viable for anyone who doesn't have their own garage to do it in. Some punk kid would walk around unplugging all the cars all the time if the charging is done outside. Can you imagine? I mean, if we live in a world where someone would smash a windshield for no reason, electric cars are a perfect target for sowing that little brand of punkass chaos.

Not everybody lives in a shithole where that's a concern.

But, I'm pretty sure as we get more and more mainstream electrics that power theft is going to be a legitimate issue.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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Raza

Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 17, 2017, 09:55:26 AM

Building private garages isn't going to help current infrastructure. Plus, from what I've seen around here, most new housing developments are for apartments/condos with no garages.

Around here, you're not allowed to build without a garage or spot for to each dwelling. If you build a building with 50 apartments, you need at least one spot for each one.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 17, 2017, 09:58:53 AM
Not everybody lives in a shithole where that's a concern.

But, I'm pretty sure as we get more and more mainstream electrics that power theft is going to be a legitimate issue.

There are parts of the country where there are no teenagers? I'd like to move there.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.