Great MT comparo on Leaf vs. Bolt vs. (gasp) Model 3

Started by Laconian, December 04, 2017, 04:22:22 PM

CaminoRacer

No, you can get one because GM has a competent supply chain & manufacturing team.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

12,000 RPM

Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 05, 2017, 06:37:59 PM
No, you can get one because GM has a competent supply chain & manufacturing team.

Even Tesla can build 10k cars a year -shrug-
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

2o6


12,000 RPM

r0tor is taking it from both ends in this thread and the personal finance thread

Personally I would log off and let things cool off but he has a different approach
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CALL_911



2004 S2000
2016 340xi

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 05, 2017, 07:59:10 PM
r0tor is taking it from both ends in this thread and the personal finance thread

Personally I would log off and let things cool off but he has a different approach


When a car that's competitvely priced and vastly out performs ( I mean obliterates) it's competition and wins a car rag comparo - people generally agree.

Except when that means Tesla wins.


Generally, when a manufacturer gets way more customers for a car then it can build - it's also usually a success.

Except when it's Tesla.


Face it, it's just pure hate.  They designed a car that kills the competition and massive amounts of people want to actually own.  They have turned not only the electric market but the general auto industry upside-down.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2017, 06:14:23 AM

When a car that's competitvely priced and vastly out performs ( I mean obliterates) it's competition and wins a car rag comparo - people generally agree.

Except when that means Tesla wins.


Generally, when a manufacturer gets way more customers for a car then it can build - it's also usually a success.

Except when it's Tesla.


Face it, it's just pure hate.  They designed a car that kills the competition and massive amounts of people want to actually own.  They have turned not only the electric market but the general auto industry upside-down.

Competitively priced - $61k vs. $35k? Buck down the Model 3 option list to be legit Bolt/Leaf pricing, and it finishes 2nd here, maybe even third.

It's not hate - it's reality. Tesla is an economic fiction distorting both the market and law/regulation. This is what pisses people off.

MexicoCityM3

This debate will sort itself out in one to two years. I am hoping they succeed. The cars are very very good.
Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
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12,000 RPM

Quote from: CALL_911 on December 06, 2017, 06:11:26 AM
Come on, we all know that's not true :lol:
I have, you just don't notice

Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2017, 06:14:23 AM

When a car that's competitvely priced and vastly out performs ( I mean obliterates) it's competition and wins a car rag comparo - people generally agree.

Except when that means Tesla wins.


Generally, when a manufacturer gets way more customers for a car then it can build - it's also usually a success.

Except when it's Tesla.


Face it, it's just pure hate.  They designed a car that kills the competition and massive amounts of people want to actually own.  They have turned not only the electric market but the general auto industry upside-down.
A car that cost 2x more than its competitors beat them in a comparo.... wow! Stop the presses!

Equally priced the Model 3 has less range and less equipment, and won't be available at that price most likely for years. If GM had the luxury of churning through fanboy cash to cover its losses they could build a Model 3 killer and actually deliver it. Holding automakers to the milestones/deadlines/targets they set for themselves is not hate
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

The 3 in this comparo was nowhere near that and there is no reliable estimate of when such a 3 will be available. People can't drive press releases and Elon tweets
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Tave

The base Model 3 will still match the other two on range, accelerate faster, be more efficient, and smash them on braking and handling. And not look like a disaster.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Tave on December 06, 2017, 11:34:09 AM
The base Model 3 will still match the other two on range, accelerate faster, be more efficient, and smash them on braking and handling. And not look like a disaster.

That interior looks like a disaster. :huh:
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Tave

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 06, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
That interior looks like a disaster. :huh:

You may not like the minimalism, but it is elegant and simple. It isn't messy, so it's not a disaster in that sense.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Tave on December 06, 2017, 11:43:13 AM
You may not like the minimalism, but it is elegant and simple. It isn't messy, so it's not a disaster in that sense.

You're right. It's like the aftermath of a disaster when everything has been washed away and there's nothing left but a barren wasteland.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

SJ_GTI

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 06, 2017, 12:12:07 PM
You're right. It's like the aftermath of a disaster when everything has been washed away and there's nothing left but a barren wasteland.

:lol:


All joking aside, I think the Bolt is decent looking, but I wouldn't want it myself mainly because it is FWD (by all accounts it handles reasonable well for a FWD car).

I would like the Model 3 to be a good car because if I ever make the move to an electric car I would want it to be a fun car to drive.

Tave

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 06, 2017, 12:12:07 PM
You're right. It's like the aftermath of a disaster when everything has been washed away and there's nothing left but a barren wasteland.

It's a contemporary nod to the beautiful Art Deco dashes from the golden age of auto design, as well as functionally inspired insomuch as it helps conserve interior room by eliminating useless space.

If you prefer the overwrought spaceship whale genitalia theme that seems to be so in vogue at the moment, well, I guess we like what we like.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Laconian

"Art Deco dashes from the golden age of auto design"

I was thinking of mid-century modern furniture. Very low profile, everything's secreted away, for better or worse.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

50's dashes were elegant. Tesla stuck an iPad to a slab of soft-touch plastic.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

2o6

Quote from: Tave on December 06, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
It's a contemporary nod to the beautiful Art Deco dashes from the golden age of auto design, as well as functionally inspired insomuch as it helps conserve interior room by eliminating useless space.

if anything it's 1960's minimalism, Art Deco is much more ornate.


Also it's not as well thought out as you think it is...



If you prefer the overwrought spaceship whale genitalia theme that seems to be so in vogue at the moment, well, I guess we like what we like.

volvo. On trend, car interiors have gotten more sleek and less ornate...


The Model 3's dash design still has very real design and safety concerns.

Tave

Quote from: 2o6 on December 06, 2017, 10:27:37 PM

The Model 3's dash design still has very real design and safety concerns.

Please quit responding to quotes within the embedded quote block. It saves you no effort and makes it a pain in the ass for others to reply.

Art Deco is most often characterized by hyper-stylization, it doesn't have to be ornate, and many pieces are the opposite of ornate. 

As cars started growing out of the classical Art Deco of the 30s and 40s, then into the futurism/Modern Art Deco of the 50s and 60s, until finally arriving at the minimalist/brutalism of the late 70s and 80s, we saw dash designs stay fairly consistent relative to exterior developments up until the 70s. If you look at a '69 Camaro, the gauge scripts and layout is totally Art Deco and it looks like it could have been taken directly from the Mustang five years earlier or the Corvette ten years before that.

Ironically, in the late 70s and 80s when cars were at their most minimalist on the outside, the new electronics began making an absolute mess of the dashes.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on December 06, 2017, 08:07:16 PM
"Art Deco dashes from the golden age of auto design"

I was thinking of mid-century modern furniture. Very low profile, everything's secreted away, for better or worse.

Mid century, modernism, minimalism, all of them are better descriptors than Art Deco. That really doesn't fit at all.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Tave

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 07, 2017, 02:06:55 PM
Mid century, modernism, minimalism, all of them are better descriptors than Art Deco. That really doesn't fit at all.

Minimal stylized buttons and gauges with long stretches of strong, blank dashlines? I dunno I think it fits pretty well. :huh:

I didn't say the Tesla was Art Deco, I said it's a contemporary (minimalist) take on the kind of dash designs we saw on Art Deco-era cars:






As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Soup DeVille

See, I wouldn't call any of those Art Deco either.

When you say Art Deco and cars, I think of Heinz Rust's Phantom Corsair, or a James Young Roller.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Tave

It's a pretty broad genre, encompasses a lot of design.

Pretty sure some font programs actually call this script "art deco"...

As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Tave on December 07, 2017, 02:54:29 PM
It's a pretty broad genre, encompasses a lot of design.

Pretty sure some font programs actually call this script "art deco"...



Certainly there are influences there, but it's not the style I would name it.

Whatever, I think everybody's saying the same thing here with a different vocabulary.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

CaminoRacer

The Model 3 is much more Scandinavian/IKEA minimalist than a minimalist 50's throwback.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Soup DeVille

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 07, 2017, 03:14:44 PM
The Model 3 is much more Scandinavian/IKEA minimalist than a minimalist 50's throwback.

What it really is is iPodism (appleism? Jobsian?)
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Laconian

Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT