Why don't people buy new sports cars anymore?

Started by 12,000 RPM, March 15, 2018, 01:39:38 PM

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 21, 2018, 10:12:00 AM
Okay "driven by straight 4" then. I can see that to a certain extent; how many 150-200 HP four bangers were there in the early '90s?

I just listed a bunch... Good grief

Not to mention these cars weighed a good 25-30% less than modern equivalents
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:01:53 AM
By absoliyely defining a segment that was absolutely not a Pony car?

Since you love wiki so muchhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_compact


Did you read that article?

QuoteAccording to Motor Trend in a comparison entitled "Small, Fast, Fun", the sports compact car has to accomplish the multiple duties of a "family car" and a "daily driver" - thus having more than two doors and seating at least four passengers - while also being "fun to drive" on all roads and in town.

By that definition, a Probe is not a sport compact, as it has only 2 doors (a liftback is not a door).

Or we can go by this:
QuoteThere is no precise definition and the description is applied for marketing purposes to a wide variety of models, but typical "sport compacts" are front engined, front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive coupés, sedans, or hatchbacks driven by a straight-4 gasoline engine. In most cases, they are versions of mass-market cars that are factory produced with additional features and upgrades.

The Probe was not a performance version of a mass-market car (unlike a Golf GTI, Civic Si, Impreza WRX, or Sentra SE-R would be), it was it's own model.  And the GT didn't have an I4 engine.  So it fails to meet the criteria given here as well, though the author opens by saying that the definition is nebulous to begin with.

Pony cars are a subset of sport compact, depending on which of the "not precisely defined" definitions you care to choose, though not by the examples taken from wiki above (which the cars you're debating me on also fail to meet).  Not every sport compact is one, but sport compacts like the Celica, Probe, MX-6, RSX, DSM, or Prelude certainly fit the mold.  Meanwhile, sport compacts like the WRX, GTI, Civic Si, or Sentra SE-R do not.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

#92
Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:17:39 AM
I just listed a bunch... Good grief

Not to mention these cars weighed a good 25-30% less than modern equivalents

Most of which only did so in 6 cylinder guise.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 21, 2018, 10:10:30 AM
Yes; and nowhere did it say either RWD or American made are necessary.

I wouldn't think of a Probe as a pony car either; but its clearly not a hatchback or an economy car. The term I remember was "date car," and the Prelude more or less defined the segment.

I'm really failing to find any history of a non domestic or fwd car ever being called or marketed as a pony car.

Maybe you have better luck finding some examples?
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 21, 2018, 10:23:37 AM
Most of which only did so in 6 cylinder guise.

The only part of my list that had a V6 was the probe/mx and that was a damn 2.5L engine in the 2nd gen that might as well have been a 4cyl (but thankfully not because it sounded so much better)
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
Did you read that article?

By that definition, a Probe is not a sport compact, as it has only 2 doors (a liftback is not a door).

Or we can go by this:
The Probe was not a performance version of a mass-market car (unlike a Golf GTI, Civic Si, Impreza WRX, or Sentra SE-R would be), it was it's own model.  And the GT didn't have an I4 engine.  So it fails to meet the criteria given here as well, though the author opens by saying that the definition is nebulous to begin with.

Pony cars are a subset of sport compact, depending on which of the "not precisely defined" definitions you care to choose, though not by the examples taken from wiki above (which the cars you're debating me on also fail to meet).  Not every sport compact is one, but sport compacts like the Celica, Probe, MX-6, RSX, DSM, or Prelude certainly fit the mold.  Meanwhile, sport compacts like the WRX, GTI, Civic Si, or Sentra SE-R do not.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1508-10-most-influential-sport-compacts-of-the-90s/


Why do I see no mention of pony cars and plenty of "liftbacks"?  Why again is the Probe even mentioned?

How about finding anywhere in this universe a stereotypical sport compact car being called a pony car (other than your head)
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:27:17 AM
I'm really failing to find any history of a non domestic or fwd car ever being called or marketed as a pony car.

Maybe you have better luck finding some examples?

Called? well I just did. Was the Camaro ever marketed as a pony car? Does that change anything?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:17:39 AM
I just listed a bunch... Good grief


Oh?

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 01:33:08 PM
Probe GT

Not a 4-cylinder, last I checked.  And the Turbo in the Gen1 car was only 145 hp.

QuoteMX6,

Not with a 4 cylinder.

QuoteCelica GTs,

Not until 1999

QuoteCivic SI,

Not until 1999

QuoteIntegra

Yep

Quote240SX

Yep, barely.  But not technically a sport compact per the Wiki article.

QuoteDSMs

Yes, in turbocharged form.

3/7.  Grade = F

Quote... Too many to name actually

You couldn't even name half a dozen...
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:34:47 AM
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1508-10-most-influential-sport-compacts-of-the-90s/


Why do I see no mention of pony cars and plenty of "liftbacks"?  Why again is the Probe even mentioned?

How about finding anywhere in this universe a stereotypical sport compact car being called a pony car (other than your head)

This article was instantly invalidated when they included the Miata and MR2.  Not sport compacts by any definition you're arguing.  Unless we're going to toss in any small, reasonably affordable (2nd gen MR2 turbos were NOT cheap... $47K in today's dollars starting price) 4-cylinder sporty/performance car as a "sport compact".
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Onslaught

Why we arguing about FWD cars in a sports car post. FWD cars are not sports cars.
bah weep granah weep nini bon

Soup DeVille

Bottom line is that despite what any solid definitions there may or may not be, nobody thinks of Probes or 240SXs when someone says pony cars; and the original statement; that more performance is available now in compact offerings than was in the late '80s to late '90s is so self evident its ridiculous to argue.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2018, 10:40:47 AM
Oh?

Not a 4-cylinder, last I checked.  And the Turbo in the Gen1 car was only 145 hp.

Not with a 4 cylinder.

Not until 1999

Not until 1999


Yep

Yep, barely.  But not technically a sport compact per the Wiki article.

Yes, in turbocharged form.

3/7.  Grade = F

You couldn't even name half a dozen...

Oh here we go, the king of internet semantics...

Oh that's right, you can't lump in a 2.5L V6 designed to compete but differentiate yourself from a 4 cyl in with 4 cylinders.  How dare I.  Also, you really want to be a dickhead over 5hp on the first gen turbo?  Be my guest.

Sorry the Celica had 200hp in the 80s
Sorry, Honda's B16A engine had 160hp in the 1989 Civic SiR and CRX siR
Sorry DSMs existed
Sorry the MR2 turbo had 200hp
Sorry, there were examples of the Imprezza and Lacer well above 200hp.
Sorry, the damn Omni GLH existed in the mid 80s.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
Oh here we go, the king of internet semantics...

Oh that's right, you can't lump in a 2.5L V6 designed to compete but differentiate yourself from a 4 cyl in with 4 cylinders.  How dare I.  Also, you really want to be a dickhead over 5hp on the first gen turbo?  Be my guest.

You were asked what 4-cylinders made 150+ hp in the late 80s early 90s.  This is not a 4-cylinder.  That's not semantics.

QuoteSorry the Celica had 200hp in the 80s

Then why did you post a picture of a 1999+ Celica GT-S when called on it?

QuoteSorry, Honda's B16A engine had 160hp in the 1989 Civic SiR and CRX siR
...
Sorry, there were examples of the Imprezza and Lacer well above 200hp.

Are we now expanding to JDM-only?


QuoteSorry, the damn Omni GLH existed in the mid 80s.

:clap:

So stretching your scope into vehicles that were never sold in North America, you have 9.  (And you missed some easy gimmes for cars that were actually sold in this market).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
Oh here we go, the king of internet semantics...

Oh that's right, you can't lump in a 2.5L V6 designed to compete but differentiate yourself from a 4 cyl in with 4 cylinders.  How dare I.  Also, you really want to be a dickhead over 5hp on the first gen turbo?  Be my guest.

Sorry the Celica had 200hp in the 80s
Sorry, Honda's B16A engine had 160hp in the 1989 Civic SiR and CRX siR
Sorry DSMs existed
Sorry the MR2 turbo had 200hp
Sorry, there were examples of the Imprezza and Lacer well above 200hp.
Sorry, the damn Omni GLH existed in the mid 80s.

Those were all pretty rare, or limited editions, or not even available in this country; which goes to the original statement; not many. Which is what was being said; not that such things didn't exist, but that most people couldn't get them and there weren't many options.

And they're all outclassed by what could be found on any decent sized dealer's lot today.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Speed_Racer

All this talk about Probes, don't forget Ford had the Escort GT in the early 90s. Maybe considered a hot hatch for the time, but only came with 127 hp.

giant_mtb

"The first guy says, 'Well I'm an astronaut, so I drive a Saturn.'  And the second guy says, 'Well I am a pimp so I drive a cheap Escort.'  And the third guy says, 'I got you both beat. I'm a proctologist, so I drive a brown Probe."

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 21, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Those were all pretty rare, or limited editions, or not even available in this country; which goes to the original statement; not many. Which is what was being said; not that such things didn't exist, but that most people couldn't get them and there weren't many options.

And they're all outclassed by what could be found on any decent sized dealer's lot today.

No, my original statement was

QuoteI don't know... Hatches and econo cars have had 150-200hp since the early 90 or late 80s.  I'd put the handling of some of the late 90s examples up against newer items anyday as well.

Higher priced cars have definitely progressed with technology.

Which is all accurate and could have been left at that until the Semantics Wonder had to try and classify things as pony cars and other ridiculousness involving rewriting history

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

It's not accurate. But that clearly doesn't matter to you
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 21, 2018, 01:00:42 PM
It's not accurate. But that clearly doesn't matter to you

Oh look, the classic internet non descriptive saving of face
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 12:46:04 PM
No, my original statement was

Which is all accurate and could have been left at that until the Semantics Wonder had to try and classify things as pony cars and other ridiculousness involving rewriting history



As a general thing, no they didn't. Nothing you listed could be called an econo car. That there were some limited edition hard to get exceptions ( that weren't at that point economy cars) is something that doesn't make it generally untrue.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

You should look up what semmantics means.  Pointing out blatantly false statements is not semmantics.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 01:04:14 PM
Oh look, the classic internet non descriptive saving of face
I've already explained why in detail. It's clear you won't accept inconvenient facts so there's no point in repeating myself.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Xer0

Anyway.  I'm planning on upgrading the Si this year.  Probably in the fall/early winter.  Right now in consideration is keep the Si and get a nice AP2 S2K or trade in the Si and get a Type R.  I'm leaning towards the Type R cause of convenience.  I am the reason this thread exists.

Gotta-Qik-C7

2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

Lebowski

Quote from: Xer0 on March 21, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Anyway.  I'm planning on upgrading the Si this year.  Probably in the fall/early winter.  Right now in consideration is keep the Si and get a nice AP2 S2K or trade in the Si and get a Type R.  I'm leaning towards the Type R cause of convenience.  I am the reason this thread exists.


Hold out til there's a CRV type-R in the works?

Xer0


MrH

Quote from: Xer0 on March 21, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Anyway.  I'm planning on upgrading the Si this year.  Probably in the fall/early winter.  Right now in consideration is keep the Si and get a nice AP2 S2K or trade in the Si and get a Type R.  I'm leaning towards the Type R cause of convenience.  I am the reason this thread exists.

I know of a nice AP1. $20k takes it home.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Xer0 on March 21, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Anyway.  I'm planning on upgrading the Si this year.  Probably in the fall/early winter.  Right now in consideration is keep the Si and get a nice AP2 S2K or trade in the Si and get a Type R.  I'm leaning towards the Type R cause of convenience.  I am the reason this thread exists.
If you can get past the looks the Type-R is a no brainer
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

I can't. The back looks like shelving built from pallet scraps.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

giant_mtb

Quote from: Laconian on March 21, 2018, 08:08:35 PM
I can't. The back looks like shelving built from pallet scraps.

u talkin sh bout pallets?!