This or That... Mulling over Jetta replacements

Started by MX793, June 17, 2018, 12:55:35 PM

MX793

Browsing local used car inventories for a replacement for my much maligned VW.  The local mega dealer has 2 cars in stock that caught my eye.  Same advertised price.

2015 Chevy Sonic LT Hatch.  Black exterior, black/grey cloth interior
1.8L, 5MT.  46K miles.  Chevy MyLink premium audio. 

I test drove a Sonic with this powertrain combo when I was shopping last time.  It was out of my price range at the time, but it seemed like an OK drive.  Wasn't fast, but wasn't underpowered.  Handling seemed pretty nimble.  Ride was perhaps a little brittle, but not awful.  I kind of liked the motorcycle-esque instrument cluster.  New enough that it probably hasn't started to develop corrosion issues yet, though mileage is a bit high for its age.

2011 Honda Fit Sport Auto.  Blue exterior, grey cloth interior
1.5L 5AT.  72.5K miles.

Closest experience I have with a Fit is a 5 minute spin around the block in my brother's HRV (which was CVT rather than the 5AT in the older Fit).  Like the magic seat.  Honda reliability.  Concerned that the 1.5L w/ 5AT will feel horribly gutless.  Twice as old and significantly more miles than the Chevy, but it's a Honda.  Not as many convenience or safety features either.  I don't mind simple, but I have been spoiled by steering wheel audio controls.  My biggest concern would be corrosion.  Hondas hold up well, but most cars, even corrosion resistant ones, start to succumb to the red death at around 6 years around here, so this is getting to the age where corrosion repairs start to be a concern.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

2o6

Quote from: MX793 on June 17, 2018, 12:55:35 PM
Browsing local used car inventories for a replacement for my much maligned VW.  The local mega dealer has 2 cars in stock that caught my eye.  Same advertised price.

2015 Chevy Sonic LT Hatch.  Black exterior, black/grey cloth interior
1.8L, 5MT.  46K miles.  Chevy MyLink premium audio. 

I test drove a Sonic with this powertrain combo when I was shopping last time.  It was out of my price range at the time, but it seemed like an OK drive.  Wasn't fast, but wasn't underpowered.  Handling seemed pretty nimble.  Ride was perhaps a little brittle, but not awful.  I kind of liked the motorcycle-esque instrument cluster.  New enough that it probably hasn't started to develop corrosion issues yet, though mileage is a bit high for its age.

2011 Honda Fit Sport Auto.  Blue exterior, grey cloth interior
1.5L 5AT.  72.5K miles.

Closest experience I have with a Fit is a 5 minute spin around the block in my brother's HRV (which was CVT rather than the 5AT in the older Fit).  Like the magic seat.  Honda reliability.  Concerned that the 1.5L w/ 5AT will feel horribly gutless.  Twice as old and significantly more miles than the Chevy, but it's a Honda.  Not as many convenience or safety features either.  I don't mind simple, but I have been spoiled by steering wheel audio controls.  My biggest concern would be corrosion.  Hondas hold up well, but most cars, even corrosion resistant ones, start to succumb to the red death at around 6 years around here, so this is getting to the age where corrosion repairs start to be a concern.


The Chevy will hold up better with regards to rust. I live in OH, and my car looks good underneath.

The Honda isn't bad, but the automatic and 110HP and the usual Honda SOHC lack of torque does it in.

The Sonic is a more special car with the 1.4T and 6MT. I don't trust that 1.8L; it's not too different than the one in the old Daewoo Nubira.

I like my sonic a lot, and I'm biased.

I will say? The Sonic is a heavy car; front end parts seem to me mediocre with longevity, and tires also wear quick.


But, the ride is better than the Fit.

2o6

Also, I had a gen 1 Fit 5MT flip car at the same time as the Sonic.



The Fit is definitely more of a Japanese small car feel; it handles well, but above 70MPH it's nowhere near as comfortable and stable as the Sonic. It's geared shorter, it's louder, it's darty at higher speeds...

MX793

The 1.8 in the Sonic is unrelated to the 2.0L motor that was sold in the North American market Nubira.  Foreign market Nubiras, with the smaller engines (1.6 and smaller) used a licensed copy of the predecessor generation of the Sonic's 1.8.  The original motor was an Opel motor.  The 1.4T is just a turbocharged version of the same family.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

2o6

Quote from: MX793 on June 17, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
The 1.8 in the Sonic is unrelated to the 2.0L motor that was sold in the North American market Nubira.  Foreign market Nubiras, with the smaller engines (1.6 and smaller) used a licensed copy of the predecessor generation of the Sonic's 1.8.  The original motor was an Opel motor.  The 1.4T is just a turbocharged version of the same family.


Then I'm mistaken, but the 1.8L was also the offering in the Saturn Astra. The LUW is also timing belt, FWIW.

Also, I'm pretty sure the 1.4T is from a newer engine family.


Having driven both, the turbo IMO really makes it feel like a better car. But the 1.8L isn't so bad.




I'd be lying if I didn't have some issues with my car in the 2.5 years I've owned it. But, I drive harder than average, and I got a first model year car. But it's a likable car, and IMO more engaging than the Jetta V you're replacing.

If you do a lot of freeway driving, I'd take it up to speed and see how you like either one.

2o6

As far as corrosion protection, anecdotally, I feel like GM is the best in the game right now. Mazda seems to have greatly improved, Toyota is hit or miss; my grey Yaris hatch had some exterior rust starting that most didn't notice, and I had a few exhaust repairs I did that were directly corrosion related.


Nissan seems to be the worst at the moment.



What about a Ford Focus or Fiesta? They're cheaper than the GM and Honda sometimes, and finding a manual is easy. It's also the same MTX they've used since like 2000, when they got it from Mazda, and the 2.0L Duratec is a reliable motor. It's also not super hard to find a well equipped MTX one. I'd avoid the automatic, tho.

68_427

My brother bought a new 2017 Fiesta hatch 1.0L manual for under 10k last year.  What's the price of the cars you're looking at?
Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


2o6

Quote from: 68_427 on June 17, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
My brother bought a new 2017 Fiesta hatch 1.0L manual for under 10k last year.  What's the price of the cars you're looking at?

Yeah, they're practically giving these things away. Same with the 1.0 Focus. Also, the automatic 1.0L use a real automatic, not the DCT.

MX793

#8
Quote from: 68_427 on June 17, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
My brother bought a new 2017 Fiesta hatch 1.0L manual for under 10k last year.  What's the price of the cars you're looking at?

A little under 9.  Finding MTs around here is problematic.

Checked all 3 local Ford dealers.  At the closest, the only MT cars in stock are a pair of Fiesta STs (also the only Fiestas they have of any sort), which are more than I want to spend for a winter only car.  They have a lot of Focii, but all are the 2.0L w/ PowerShit powertrain.  The next closest dealer only has 1.6 w/ PowerShit Fiestas in stock and a couple of STs.  They do have a pair of 1.0L Focii with MT, but they are well above what I want to spend even with discounts.  Third closest has no Fiestas, a pair of 1.0L w/ auto Focii (blech), and a couple 2.0 w/ PowerShit.  All more than I want to spend.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5


MrH

Just drive a few hours away and get some better selection.  I feel like you're pigeonholing to a handful of vehicles on some tiny buy here, pay here kind of lot instead of taking the time and buying what you want.  There are a lot of decent options for that kind of money.  You can totally get a 1.0 L MT Fiesta
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

MX793

#11
Quote from: MrH on June 18, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Just drive a few hours away and get some better selection.  I feel like you're pigeonholing to a handful of vehicles on some tiny buy here, pay here kind of lot instead of taking the time and buying what you want.  There are a lot of decent options for that kind of money.  You can totally get a 1.0 L MT Fiesta

I went to Ford's site and searched every dealership within a 100 mile radius (the max their dealer search will go).  42 dealerships covering every major city in NY except NYC and northern PA.  I then checked within 100 miles of Rochester to ensure I got all of the Buffalo metro, which would push me beyond Buffalo and into Ohio.  I'd guess at least 60 unique dealerships between the 2 searches.  No one has a 1.0T Fiesta MT.  No one has heavily discounted Fiestas, period, unless the discounts aren't showing up on their webpages.

I checked the nearest CarMax (in Rochester, about an hour and a half away).  ~180 cars in inventory.  As soon as I checked "<$10K", selection dropped to 2 vehicles:  2012 Versa S CVT or a Toyota iQ of the same vintage.  Blech. 

Local uber auto mall, where I found the Sonic and Fit, has over 750 used vehicles in inventory.  Their prices are better than CarMax.  Filter by MT and it drops to 19.  Most of those are sports cars or luxo-sports (BMWs, Audis, Vettes, Mustangs).  Filter to my target budget and the options go to just the Sonic.  Allowing autos only adds 6 more vehicles.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Northlands

Korean twins?  Accent or Rio. Can have either in a hatch. 1.6L's. Shouldn't have any hp issues.



- " It's like a petting zoo, but for computers." -  my wife's take on the Apple Store.
2013 Hyundai Accent GLS / 2015 Hyundai Sonata GLS

MX793

#13
Quote from: Northlands on June 18, 2018, 04:35:43 PM
Korean twins?  Accent or Rio. Can have either in a hatch. 1.6L's. Shouldn't have any hp issues.

I wouldn't touch a used one unless it was from down south or out west.  The Korean makes have a really bad reputation for not holding up to salt.  Out of budget new.  Car dealers anywhere close to here just don't cut the ridiculous deals.  Not enough competition.  I'm not willing to drive 8+ hours round trip to haggle on a car.  It's a winter rat.  I'll drive it maybe 2500 miles a year.  It doesn't need to be my dream car, it just has to be reliable, rust-free, comfortable, fuel efficient, and if it's somewhat fun to drive that's a bonus.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

2o6


2o6

What about a lease? If the car usually ends up being used up by the end and you don't drive a lot, a lease sounds ideal.

Tave

Congrats on the impending arrival of your very own Aveo!
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

MX793

Quote from: 2o6 on June 18, 2018, 05:03:44 PM
What about a lease? If the car usually ends up being used up by the end and you don't drive a lot, a lease sounds ideal.

Because with a lease I'd have to carry full insurance coverage and I don't want another monthly payment to worry about.  It's a seasonal car, to be driven very sparingly in shitty weather or if I need to transport something that won't fit in the Mustang's trunk (hence the desire for a hatchback).  I don't need or care that it be a new car.  I'm 100% fine with a used car.  If I could find a new car for that money that meets my needs, awesome, but I'm not going to go way out of my way to find a deal on a new car if there are used cars nearby that meet my needs.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

68_427

I saw a 2018 Fiesta SE hatch for $11,004 in Maryland less than 300 miles from me in Western Rochester.  I know that's a stretch on your budget.
Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


68_427

Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


Raza

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

2o6

Quote from: MX793 on June 18, 2018, 06:11:01 PM
Because with a lease I'd have to carry full insurance coverage and I don't want another monthly payment to worry about.  It's a seasonal car, to be driven very sparingly in shitty weather or if I need to transport something that won't fit in the Mustang's trunk (hence the desire for a hatchback).  I don't need or care that it be a new car.  I'm 100% fine with a used car.  If I could find a new car for that money that meets my needs, awesome, but I'm not going to go way out of my way to find a deal on a new car if there are used cars nearby that meet my needs.


You'd carry liability only on a car that new?

Quote from: Raza  on June 18, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
If those are your options, keep the Jetta.

His Jetta is a POS and is disentegrating.

MrH

Quote from: MX793 on June 18, 2018, 04:24:35 PM
I went to Ford's site and searched every dealership within a 100 mile radius (the max their dealer search will go).  42 dealerships covering every major city in NY except NYC and northern PA.  I then checked within 100 miles of Rochester to ensure I got all of the Buffalo metro, which would push me beyond Buffalo and into Ohio.  I'd guess at least 60 unique dealerships between the 2 searches.  No one has a 1.0T Fiesta MT.  No one has heavily discounted Fiestas, period, unless the discounts aren't showing up on their webpages.

I checked the nearest CarMax (in Rochester, about an hour and a half away).  ~180 cars in inventory.  As soon as I checked "<$10K", selection dropped to 2 vehicles:  2012 Versa S CVT or a Toyota iQ of the same vintage.  Blech. 

Local uber auto mall, where I found the Sonic and Fit, has over 750 used vehicles in inventory.  Their prices are better than CarMax.  Filter by MT and it drops to 19.  Most of those are sports cars or luxo-sports (BMWs, Audis, Vettes, Mustangs).  Filter to my target budget and the options go to just the Sonic.  Allowing autos only adds 6 more vehicles.

Don't base all of this on advertised price. Find what you want within 300 miles, email all the dealers your offer and see if any bite.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

MX793

Quote from: Raza  on June 18, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
If those are your options, keep the Jetta.

Your snobbery is showing.  The Jetta is a POS.  The interior is falling apart at 75K miles in ways I've only seen in early 1980s American vehicles.  The headliner is completely detached.  All of the enamel has come off of the buttons for the stereo and the door controls.  The washer line is patched with duct tape because Ze Germans thought it was a good idea to use brittle convoluted plastic instead of something more rubbery and flexible for the lines and it snapped (common on those cars).

It gets horrible fuel mileage.  Like I routinely get 18-19 mpg in my normal driving.  I don't drive it aggressive, either.  It seldom sees more than 2500 RPM and the auto does its damnedest to keep the engine running at 2000 rpm or less.  I used to keep my Mazda in gears where it never dropped below 2500 with 3000-3500 rpm shifts.  Never got below 23 mpg.  Hell, my last Mustang with 2x the power of the Jetta only recorded below 20 mpg on a tank once, and that was with a double-header auto-cross weekend on the tank.

It has irritating electrical gremlins that are apparently common for the model.  The worst of them is a rear defroster that blows the fuse if I let it run for more than 90 seconds.  This is after I upsized the fuse to one with a higher amp rating.  That's hugely inconvenient in a winter car where I would use the rear defroster a lot.  It has an intermittent, temperature-related short in one of the tail light assemblies that takes out one of the turn signals and brake lamps when it gets hot.

People who think VWs are great cars have never owned a good car.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: MrH on June 19, 2018, 05:22:38 AM
Don't base all of this on advertised price. Find what you want within 300 miles, email all the dealers your offer and see if any bite.

I'm not driving 600 miles round trip for a winter car.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

FWIW my wife's 07 Rabbit was dead reliable outside of a dead vacuum pump and some fan fuckery from previous crash damage

Gas mileage was a complete joke though

Maybe they just built yours during Oktoberfest :lol: The thought of driving a mainstream Japanese brand does make Raza break out in hives (unless its a Mitsubishi :lol: )

Anyway I think I found your car

https://www.carmax.com/car/15137304
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

veeman

There are a few MT Honda Civics near you less than 10 years old with less than 100,000 miles in your price range.

But yeah I'd get the Sonic.


SJ_GTI

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 19, 2018, 05:35:43 AM
FWIW my wife's 07 Rabbit was dead reliable outside of a dead vacuum pump and some fan fuckery from previous crash damage

Gas mileage was a complete joke though

Maybe they just built yours during Oktoberfest :lol: The thought of driving a mainstream Japanese brand does make Raza break out in hives (unless its a Mitsubishi :lol: )

Anyway I think I found your car

https://www.carmax.com/car/15137304

I have been pretty lucky with my VW/Audi cars but I would never recommend them to someone looking for a reliable car.

MexicoCityM3

Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

MrH

Pretty sure we can't import things in from Mexico unless they're 25+ years old.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV