Safety Watch: Nine 2011 Vehicles That Still Lack Stability Control*
Report: CarConnection
On: Nov 12, 2010 10:46 pm
By: Bengt Halvorson
If you could check the box for a safety feature that's been shown to dramatically decrease the chances of an accident, you would, right?
That's the case with electronic stability control (ESC); it's been shown to reduce accidents, fatal crashes, and rollovers, and with economies of scale doesn't cost as much as you might think. NHTSA had estimated that its mandate for stability control to be standard by 2012 will cost an average of $111 per vehicle but save nearly 10,000 fatalities annually?along with, potentially, hundreds of thousands of injuries and accidents. Including related components, some automakers have placed the total cost of ESC to be $400 or more.
The idea behind electronic stability control is simple: the brakes are applied individually at one or more of the wheels to help restore a traction and/or a vehicle imbalance in an extreme maneuver?perhaps allowing you to avoid an accident.
But while stability control systems for some SUVs and luxury vehicles are already into their second or third generations of this technology, some of the least expensive models on the market still haven't received the lifesaving technology.
The need is especially dire for small cars because of their weight disadvantage in multiple-vehicle accidents.
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), electronic stability control was standard on 85 percent of all vehicles for the 2010 model year?including 100 percent of SUVs but 88 percent of cars and just 62 percent of pickups.
Automakers have just over the past couple of years moved quickly to get stability control into compact pickups. The 2011 Chevrolet Colorado, 2011 GMC Canyon, and 2011 Ford Ranger all now come with it standard, and larger pickups have all come with it for several model years.
What remains for 2011?aside from a few wildcards like the four-cylinder Nissan Frontier and the Mazda RX-8?is a surprisingly long list of cheap, small cars that still don't get the feature, or don't have it standard.
A number of the smallest, least-expensive cars, including the 2011 Ford Fiesta, 2011 Toyota Yaris, 2011 Scion xB, 2011 Kia Soul and 2011 Mazda2, now include standard stability control, while a class up, vehicles such as the Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, Kia Forte, Hyundai Elantra, and Mitsubishi Lancer all have it standard.
If price-conscious new-car shopping is on order for you or your family, scroll to the next page to take a look through this list of models that even, for 2011, don't include ESC:
2011 Chevrolet Aveo
GM was an early pioneer with ESC, with its excellent StabiliTrak system that made its debut in some Cadillacs 14 years ago. But stability control still isn't at all available on Chevrolet's most affordable car, the 2011 Chevy Aveo. Anti-lock brakes are optional?and only on top trims?and we gave the 2010 Aveo one of our lowest safety ratings for its 'moderate' side-impact and 'poor' rear impact scores from the IIHS, along with three stars in one side-impact category from NHTSA in its former, more generous ratings method. An all-new model is in the works for 2012.
2010 Dodge Caliber
Chrysler has been revamping its Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep models, and restructuring trims and standard equipment. Unfortunately, stability control isn't included in the base 2011 Dodge Caliber Express, which costs $17,630, including destination. You have to step up to the $18,990 Caliber Mainstreet for that.
2011 Honda Civic
We've criticized Honda for only bundling some most-wanted?and some would say necessary, given state laws?Bluetooth connectivity features on top trims of its vehicles. Well, for the Civic, that applies to electronic stability control, too. To get ESC on a Civic Coupe or Sedan, you need to step all the way up to a 2011 Honda Civic EX-L, costing around $22k. Although Honda hasn't yet released pricing and details on the 2011 Honda Fit, for the 2010 Fit you also had to get the top-of-the-line Fit Sport, specially optioned with Honda's VSA.
2010 Hyundai Accent
While Hyundai has earned heaps of good words from us for most of its current product line, the 2011 Accent is perhaps the strongest exception. In the current market, it's just a small, cheap car?the lowest-priced on the market, at $9,985 before destination, but one that skimps on safety. Anti-lock brakes, the foundation for electronic stability control, are only offered on top Accent SE hatchback trims (or part of a $1,050 option package on the Accent sedan. Look for an all-new Accent next year?likely with standard stability control.
2011 Kia Rio
There's no electronic stability control offered on the 2011 Kia Rio, whatsoever. And even if you love the Rio, and it seems like an amazingly great deal on the dealer lot, hold on; we'd suggest if you're concerned about safety you'd be well served to wait for next year's all-new model.
2010 Nissan Versa
At just $9,990 not counting destination, the Versa 1.6 Base is nearly tied for the lowest-priced regular passenger car on sale in the U.S. market. And considering every penny counted to get the price down below the $10k mark, there's no air conditioning; no power anything; no radio, even. Electronic stability control isn't even on the options list. However the Versa can be quite well equipped, and if you go for one of the top Versa SL models, and you can only get it with an automatic transmission.
2011 Suzuki SX4
Most of the Suzuki SX4 lineup includes electronic stability control; but if you're considering the SX4 sedan, or the SX4 Sport sedan, beware that it might not include the feature. In the SX4 Sport sedan lineup, you need to go for the $19,644 (including destination) Sport GTS, and at that point in our opinion you might as well spend exactly a hundred dollars more and get a base 2011 Suzuki Kizashi, which includes the feature.
2010 Nissan Frontier
While all of its rivals like the Ford Ranger, Chevrolet Colorado, and Toyota Tacoma now include electronic stability control, it's still not included in all 2011 Nissan Frontier models. Go for the base four-cylinder engine and, quite simply, you can't get it. Base Frontiers come with no anti-lock brakes either.
2011 Mazda RX-8
It's a little surprising that, at $27,590, the base 2011 Mazda RX-8 Sport doesn't include electronic stability control. But in part, these true sports cars are bought as serious track-day devices, so perhaps that's the line of thinking. Step up to the RX-8 Grand Touring or R3 models, and you'll get stability control.
*Oddly, it says "for 2011", when, as you can see, some vehicles are labeled "2010"
i am surprised about the mazda rx-8, not the others. i do expect that honda, to stay competitive will offer this feature in even its base civic for '12. the life of the current civic has been delayed one model year and from what i read recently honda of north america will debt the 2012 version next month or in early 2011.
Consumer Reports would say "AVOID AT ALL COSTS!"
:thumbsup:
I don't have stability control. :huh:
Or traction control. Nor TPMS, for that matter.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 13, 2010, 11:05:58 AM
Consumer Reports would say "AVOID AT ALL COSTS!"
:thumbsup:
:lol:
anyone actually see a need for stability control?
Unless you're a total tard that has never had the vehicle up on 2 wheels (kinda on purpose) you should know not to do silly driving stunts while on public roadways..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 13, 2010, 05:57:28 PM
anyone actually see a need for stability control?
Unless you're a total tard that has never had the vehicle up on 2 wheels (kinda on purpose) you should know not to do silly driving stunts while on public roadways..
Not in an RX-8. If you need it in one of those then you shouldn't buy one in the first place.
Oh, and even ones that have it don't use it unless you go nuts. It's one of the least invasive units I've seen.
I've just never heard of a decent driver rolling a vehicle.
Sure I've seen plenty of morons driving their SUV way too fast for corners or whatnot. But seriously.
doesn't it help avoid hydroplaning? i know it helps in ice and snow.
PlastiCar doesn't have stability control, and it's been on the road for fifteen years now. Heck, only the Accord and PT Cruiser in the family have traction control, I believe. I don't think either has stability control, and they're both absolutely loaded.
Quote from: Onslaught on November 13, 2010, 06:44:51 PM
Not in an RX-8. If you need it in one of those then you shouldn't buy one in the first place.
Oh, and even ones that have it don't use it unless you go nuts. It's one of the least invasive units I've seen.
Well it does come in handy during snow storms....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 13, 2010, 05:57:28 PM
anyone actually see a need for stability control?
Unless you're a total tard that has never had the vehicle up on 2 wheels (kinda on purpose) you should know not to do silly driving stunts while on public roadways..
I've had two accidents that could have been avoided by stability control. I wasn't driving recklessly or anything; roads were wet and I just spun
I know Carspinners all ahve driving e-resumes that include F1 podiums, but ultimately, for real people, stability control is a plus, as evidenced by the lower accident rates
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 13, 2010, 09:36:25 PM
I've had two accidents that could have been avoided by stability control. I wasn't driving recklessly or anything; roads were wet and I just spun
I know Carspinners all ahve driving e-resumes that include F1 podiums, but ultimately, for real people, stability control is a plus, as evidenced by the lower accident rates
:hesaid: It's a nice feature. Even the best driver that gets T-boned, suddenly slips on ice or a wet road, etc. is going to have a split second (or more than a second) of pure shock where they aren't likely to have their full "skills" at play, and stability control can be very helpful in those situations. I know very few of us like invasive safety nannies, but they're very helpful for the vast majority of the population, and none of us are faster than a computer when it comes to detecting and responding to slippage.
I don't mind cars with ESC that you can completely turn off at certain times. But having ESC on cars I've driven have saved my butt a few times in winter storms.
But this summer when driving the family's SX4 on a gravel road, it was nice to be able to turn it off and pretend I was Ken Block.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 13, 2010, 05:57:28 PM
anyone actually see a need for stability control?
Unless you're a total tard
You just described 98% of the motoring public when it comes to sitting behind the wheel.
I have no problem with stability control, since most people never really even notice it is on.
Quote from: hounddog on November 13, 2010, 11:21:04 PM
You just described 98% of the motoring public when it comes to sitting behind the wheel.
I have no problem with stability control, since most people never really even notice it is on.
I don't have a problem with it- although it bothers me that Americans don't know how to drive, and never will without a better driver's ed, licensing requirements, and personal accountability..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 14, 2010, 06:47:01 AM
I don't have a problem with it- although it bothers me that Americans don't know how to drive, and never will without a better driver's ed, licensing requirements, and personal accountability..
Doing away with ESC won't solve that. That's an entirely different issue. Pretty much all safety systems (seatbelts, ABS, SRS, ESC yadda yadda) will help everybody- nobody can properly brace themselves from a head on collision w/their bodies, or apply brakes at one corner, or even properly recover a car from a spin. Even professional race car drivers spin out/crash. The superheroism and out of control egos are ridiculous.
Plus most of the internet Schumachers have no more training or formal track experience than the avg Joe, but scream to the heavens that ESC is the devil. The ppl who complain about it the most actually put themselves in situations that warrant these systems the most. I'm curious to know who on this board actually has track experience or has gone through any driving school... I'm almost certain most of the anti-ESC people haven't.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 14, 2010, 06:47:01 AM
I don't have a problem with it- although it bothers me that Americans don't know how to drive, and never will without a better driver's ed, licensing requirements, and personal accountability..
Substitute Canadians for Americans and that about sums up my feelings on it.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 14, 2010, 08:37:05 AM
Doing away with ESC won't solve that. That's an entirely different issue. Pretty much all safety systems (seatbelts, ABS, SRS, ESC yadda yadda) will help everybody- nobody can properly brace themselves from a head on collision w/their bodies, or apply brakes at one corner, or even properly recover a car from a spin. Even professional race car drivers spin out/crash. The superheroism and out of control egos are ridiculous.
Plus most of the internet Schumachers have no more training or formal track experience than the avg Joe, but scream to the heavens that ESC is the devil. The ppl who complain about it the most actually put themselves in situations that warrant these systems the most. I'm curious to know who on this board actually has track experience or has gone through any driving school... I'm almost certain most of the anti-ESC people haven't.
I'm rolling my eyes at you as hard as I can.
Let it be an option. Let it be defeatable. But lets not require it on every vehicle for that vehicle to be "competitive" or even legal.
"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."
How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on November 14, 2010, 09:34:15 AM
Substitute Canadians for Americans and that about sums up my feelings on it.
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/#clip371948
I love that show.
Quote from: 93JC on November 14, 2010, 09:42:00 AM
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/#clip371948
I love that show.
same here!
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
I'm rolling my eyes at you as hard as I can.
Let it be an option. Let it be defeatable. But lets not require it on every vehicle for that vehicle to be "competitive" or even legal.
Never said it shouldn't be. You should work on your reading comp
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."
Seriously, are you retarded? Here's what I ACTUALLY said:
"Plus most of the internet Schumachers have no more training or formal track experience than the avg Joe, but scream to the heavens that ESC is the devil. The ppl who complain about it the most actually put themselves in situations that warrant these systems the most. I'm curious to know who on this board actually has track experience or has gone through any driving school... I'm almost certain most of the anti-ESC people haven't."
So we actually agree... all I'm saying is, if ppl wanna bitch about ESC, they better damn sure get some more training or experience afforded to them beyond standard American training, either in the form of racing driving school or some actual track experience. You have guys talking about how pushing their cars to 10/10ths on public roads are better than an ESC system. Lol.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.
If you can find some evidence of accidents having been caused by failures in ESC systems, I'm all ears. Otherwise, your credibility = 0
hey dumbass, I only responded to you with my first sentence, the rest was a general response about the requirements for stability control to be competitive or legal, and how the regulators envision the reasons for forcing it on people. I.e. they think it's better for all of us to pay more for a nanny in our cars than pay a little bit to learn how to drive better. And sorry, but it IS backwards to effectively say "we won't teach people how to drive, but we'll force them to pay for tech to save them due to their lack of skill."
I really can't believe you're so stupid you'd argue with that. But hey, you've surprised me before.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 03:34:37 PM
hey dumbass, I only responded to you with my first sentence, the rest was a general response about the requirements for stability control to be competitive or legal, and how the regulators envision the reasons for forcing it on people. I.e. they think it's better for all of us to pay more for a nanny in our cars than pay a little bit to learn how to drive better. And sorry, but it IS backwards to effectively say "we won't teach people how to drive, but we'll force them to pay for tech to save them due to their lack of skill."
I really can't believe you're so stupid you'd argue with that. But hey, you've surprised me before.
Well from a cost benefit analysis, it makes more sense to just force manufacturers to comply with new safety regs than to embark on a wholesale nationwide revamping of drivers ed. Again, never said I disagreed that in general America does a piss poor job of training it's drivers; my only points are,
- one doesn't take place of the other (i.e., ESP devices still benefit even a fully trained driver)
- many of the people who complain loudest about the "intrusions" of ESP have no formal driving training beyond America's shitty driver's ed system
So to me it's silly to complain about ESP when most people aren't doing anything to better themselves as drivers to begin with
Should it be compulsory? Debatable, but prob not... ABS isn't compulsory IIRC, etc. Whatever. But for one to complain about the intrusions of ESC, one had better have more driving training than a few hours of drivers ed and a license
My cars have no nanny devices attached. I've had some track experience ( and school time! ) I will bitch about said devices once I encounter them in my next vehicles. :praise:
Quote from: Northlands on November 14, 2010, 03:51:35 PM
My cars have no nanny devices attached. I've had some track experience ( and school time! ) I will bitch about said devices once I encounter them in my next vehicles. :praise:
Well, there you go.
Plus, odds are, if it's a vehicle worth pushing to it's limits, it will have the option of bypassing said feature. Or you could always just buy used
Ha ha ha ha ha, god Chris V is an asshole. :lol:
Why haven't you people ignored that dipstick yet?
If I had ABS, I wouldn't have gotten into an accident today.
Guess I'm unfit to drive, huh?
Quote from: 2o6 on November 14, 2010, 04:21:14 PM
If I had ABS, I wouldn't have gotten into an accident today.
Guess I'm unfit to drive, huh?
Did you crash because your wheels locked and you couldn't steer, or did you crash because you couldn't stop short enough? If the former, ABS probably would have helped. If the latter, it might not have.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 14, 2010, 04:21:14 PM
If I had ABS, I wouldn't have gotten into an accident today.
Guess I'm unfit to drive, huh?
Don't know. What did you do?
Quote from: MX793 on November 14, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
Did you crash because your wheels locked and you couldn't steer, or did you crash because you couldn't stop short enough? If the former, ABS probably would have helped. If the latter, it might not have.
Probably from too long of a stop. If I steered into oncoming traffic, I would have hit another car head on.
I tried steering but I didn't realize that it does nothing with locked wheels.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 14, 2010, 04:21:14 PM
If I had ABS, I wouldn't have gotten into an accident today.
Guess I'm unfit to drive, huh?
ABS has saved my ass a couple times. No one can pump their brakes faster than a computer regardless of reflexes, so I'm a big fan of ABS.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."
How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.
As far as ESC goes, the same idea applies. No human, anywhere, is capable of reacting as quickly as an ESC system to help prevent/correct a slide, and there's no way to apply individual wheel braking without systems like those anyway. Being a better driver will probably help you avoid more accidents, and being better at emergency maneuvering may help you in poor road conditions, but these systems only serve to help you more.
Lack of skill has nothing to do with it, really. Yes, we let hilariously incompetent people on the road, and yes they cause accidents, but even the best drivers benefit from these systems. It's not just a "compensatory" device, it's a safety feature, just like pre-tensioning seatbelts and airbags. It doesn't matter if you're a Formula 1 driver, you still stand to gain from having these things on your car. Sure, you should be able to turn it off if you want to take your car out to a track or something and play, but for the other 99.9% of the time, there is no downside to having these systems on your car. Engineering and technology are all about advances. We have better suspensions, better headlights, better frame designs, and better tires than we used to thanks to engineering and technology advances, and these electronic systems are the products of that too.
As far as "electronic crutches breaking" :rolleyes:. There's really no more likelihood of the electronic safety features failing than of the mechanical parts failing, so I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. And even if the "crutch" breaks, big deal, right? You just lose the more advanced system and still have all the basic systems. For the very rare instances where the system would fail, you still have the same capabilities you'd have had without it, so it's not like it's a net loss, even for the incompetent driver. If they were bad drivers before, the electronic safety system isn't going to make them a worse driver if it breaks. They're still just bad drivers with cars that are now less likely to slide into you and kill you.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 14, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
I'm rolling my eyes at you as hard as I can.
Let it be an option. Let it be defeatable. But lets not require it on every vehicle for that vehicle to be "competitive" or even legal.
"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."
How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.
And why not have both? Europeans have always got much tougher driving training and licencing, and at the same time ESC has been the norm in thewir cars for at least a decade.
Quote from: thewizard16 on November 14, 2010, 05:02:45 PM
ABS has saved my ass a couple times. No one can pump their brakes faster than a computer regardless of reflexes, so I'm a big fan of ABS. As far as ESC goes, the same idea applies. No human, anywhere, is capable of reacting as quickly as an ESC system to help prevent/correct a slide, and there's no way to apply individual wheel braking without systems like those anyway. Being a better driver will probably help you avoid more accidents, and being better at emergency maneuvering may help you in poor road conditions, but these systems only serve to help you more.
Lack of skill has nothing to do with it, really. Yes, we let hilariously incompetent people on the road, and yes they cause accidents, but even the best drivers benefit from these systems. It's not just a "compensatory" device, it's a safety feature, just like pre-tensioning seatbelts and airbags. It doesn't matter if you're a Formula 1 driver, you still stand to gain from having these things on your car. Sure, you should be able to turn it off if you want to take your car out to a track or something and play, but for the other 99.9% of the time, there is no downside to having these systems on your car. Engineering and technology are all about advances. We have better suspensions, better headlights, better frame designs, and better tires than we used to thanks to engineering and technology advances, and these electronic systems are the products of that too.
As far as "electronic crutches breaking" :rolleyes:. There's really no more likelihood of the electronic safety features failing than of the mechanical parts failing, so I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. And even if the "crutch" breaks, big deal, right? You just lose the more advanced system and still have all the basic systems. For the very rare instances where the system would fail, you still have the same capabilities you'd have had without it, so it's not like it's a net loss, even for the incompetent driver. If they were bad drivers before, the electronic safety system isn't going to make them a worse driver if it breaks. They're still just bad drivers with cars that are now less likely to slide into you and kill you.
ABS saved my ass (or rather my car's ass) yesterday. Some idiot made a left turn across my lane right in front of me and I had to stand on the brakes...in the wet. Without ABS I would have plowed right into them.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 17, 2010, 08:48:02 AM
ABS saved my ass (or rather my car's ass) yesterday. Some idiot made a left turn across my lane right in front of me and I had to stand on the brakes...in the wet. Without ABS I would have plowed right into them.
You should have had more mastery of your car at the limits of adhesion.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 14, 2010, 04:56:17 PM
Probably from too long of a stop. If I steered into oncoming traffic, I would have hit another car head on.
I tried steering but I didn't realize that it does nothing with locked wheels.
:facepalm:
Quote from: MrH on November 17, 2010, 09:42:34 AM
:facepalm:
The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?
Quote from: Atomic on November 13, 2010, 10:25:20 AM
Safety Watch: Nine 2011 Vehicles That Still Lack Stability Control*
Report: CarConnection
On: Nov 12, 2010 10:46 pm
By: Bengt Halvorson
If you could check the box for a safety feature that's been shown to dramatically decrease the chances of an accident, you would, right?
IMHO, this article could have just as easily been titled "Nine vehicles that still expect some level of compentancy in their drivers".
I'm all for safety but we are letting these devices substitue for driver competance when instead they should enhance it.
In fact I could probably find a study that shows that all these safety devices casue drivers to take more risks because they are certain their vehicle will bail them out if they get in over their head.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 17, 2010, 09:02:06 AM
You should have had more mastery of your car at the limits of adhesion.
Well obviously.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 17, 2010, 09:52:31 AM
The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?
The kid can name every Chinese car ever made, but didn't understand that? Come on.
And yes, I did know that at 17.
What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 17, 2010, 11:11:36 AM
What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?
Hit a spot of oil on the road or something? Obstacle jumps out at you on the highway or at speed and you need to safely swerve? Shit happens
Quote from: MrH on November 17, 2010, 10:57:33 AM
The kid can name every Chinese car ever made, but didn't understand that? Come on.
And yes, I did know that at 17.
Someone get this man a cookie
There are full grown adults who have been driving for years who don't know that.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 17, 2010, 09:52:31 AM
The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?
That's a horrible excuse for bad driving. I agree it's probably not all his fault since we don't teach them nearly enough - we make police recruits and "retreds" and general re-training go on the skid-pad with the anti-locks turned off and they HAVE to be able to keep the car from a) locking up b) going into a spinout c) recover from an active spinout. If they can't do it they don't pass. There's gotta be a way to have the kids just learning go through something similar every year for their first 3 years so they get it engrained in their memory.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 17, 2010, 11:11:36 AM
What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?
Because even low-power fwd cars can go 80 mph- and they're still driven by people with almost no training on icy roads. Hell last time I went to Florida- FLORIDA- every morning there was a news report about some dumbass who'ld flipped his car over on the interstate or local highway on dry roads.
Quote from: rohan on November 17, 2010, 12:29:19 PM
Because even low-power fwd cars can go 80 mph- and they're still driven by people with almost no training on icy roads. Hell last time I went to Florida- FLORIDA- every morning there was a news report about some dumbass who'ld flipped his car over on the interstate or local highway on dry roads.
No amount of electronic technowizardry can compensate for Floridians being Floridians. :lol:
On one hand, I feel that people should have much stricter driving requirements in order to become better drivers so they can save their own ass by not getting into stupid situations in the first place.
However, on the other hand, this technology is pretty cheap, and there's always going to be times where no amount of driver training will save you, like if a tire blows or if someone else is about to plow into you and you need to swerve. I doubt that many people could avoid sliding/spinning by swerving to avoid another car, especially with the combination of fear and panic. Electronic systems will save your ass in those cases when you're shitting bricks and it's stupid to say you don't want any aids in your car.
Now, if it was permanently on and not able to be disabled ever, even for track use, then yes, it's a poorly designed system but the fact that your car has safety aids doesn't inherently make you a bad driver. :huh:
The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 17, 2010, 12:40:21 PM
On one hand, I feel that people should have much stricter driving requirements in order to become better drivers so they can save their own ass by not getting into stupid situations in the first place.
However, on the other hand, this technology is pretty cheap, and there's always going to be times where no amount of driver training will save you, like if a tire blows or if someone else is about to plow into you and you need to swerve. I doubt that many people could avoid sliding/spinning by swerving to avoid another car, especially with the combination of fear and panic. Electronic systems will save your ass in those cases when you're shitting bricks and it's stupid to say you don't want any aids in your car.
Now, if it was permanently on and not able to be disabled ever, even for track use, then yes, it's a poorly designed system but the fact that your car has safety aids doesn't inherently make you a bad driver. :huh:
The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.
:confused: It tries to slide around? I always keep DSC off, and I can only get it to slide if I push it in rain.
Quote from: rohan on November 17, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
That's a horrible excuse for bad driving. I agree it's probably not all his fault since we don't teach them nearly enough - we make police recruits and "retreds" and general re-training go on the skid-pad with the anti-locks turned off and they HAVE to be able to keep the car from a) locking up b) going into a spinout c) recover from an active spinout. If they can't do it they don't pass. There's gotta be a way to have the kids just learning go through something similar every year for their first 3 years so they get it engrained in their memory.
Hey I agree that American training for drivers is criminally inadequate. But it is what it is. If one has tried to turn while their brakes were locked up, or had a background in automotive physics, I don't see how that would be intuitive- esp to a 17 year old kid.
I still don't see the harm in these systems, even with better training. Especially if they can be disabled. I'm still at a loss as to why people drive on public streets with them off though. When I drive my parents' cars, which both have VSC IIRC, I don't turn the systems off. No need to. In my last two cars, I didn't have ESC or w/e, but the only times I recall breaking traction was the first time I stood on the brakes (no ABS). I really doubt these systems are so intrusive in daily driving that they need to be shut off to make driving enjoybale... and again most ppl who complain about these systems have no formal training or high threshold driving experience beyond the American standard. It's just an ego thing.,
Sounds like someone needs new tires. Even my dad's Camaro doesn't slide around just going around a wet corner.
Personally, I don't care if a car has stability control or not. Of course this is coming from someone who has an old muscle car. I wouldn't mind stability control, traction control, or ABS, but I don't find them necessary. I've avoided quite a few accidents without them, and it wasn't because of driving ability. Being aware of your surroundings and avoiding bad situations in the first place is the best skill to have out on the road.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 17, 2010, 12:40:21 PM
The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.
That's part of the fun! When it's going on you can have that" Oh fuck" moment. But after it's all over with it was a rush. And the looks of the other drivers faces around you can be priceless.
If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry.
That said, I'm not vehemently opposed to ESC systems, especially if there's an off switch (since I'd like to shut it off at the AutoX or track). Even very good drivers can be caught off guard (there are a lot of unpredictable situations on the road) and that extra safety net isn't a bad thing to have. I do not believe it should be a crutch or replacement for actual driving training and skill, though.
I sorta tried to do some sliding in the Audi last night on the rainy roads, but I think I was too scared to push it that far 'cause nothing happened. Damn AWD. :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on November 17, 2010, 03:31:07 PM
If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry.
Yes. Unless the corner had oil all over it from an accident that day you didn't know about. And it just started raining. I was going really damn slow and she still went around on me. Now I got it under control really fast and didn't hit a thing or even come close to the other cars. But shit can happen.
Sometimes it's fun however.
"Fun" in the "driving recklessly on public streets" kind is wholly deplorable. I'm not gonna lie and say I haven't done it myself, or that I never will, but I don't think such exercises are valid reasons to do away with ESC, or even make it defeatable on street cars.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 17, 2010, 03:33:19 PM
I sorta tried to do some sliding in the Audi last night on the rainy roads, but I think I was too scared to push it that far 'cause nothing happened. Damn AWD. :lol:
I intentionally kicked my tail end out through a corner on my way to work this morning. There's one corner where it's very easy to do, especially if the roads are wet. Even with the ESC on (I see no reason to shut if off for general day-to-day driving on public streets), it couldn't prevent me from sliding the tail (although I did notice the light in the dash flash on for a moment).
Quote from: MX793 on November 17, 2010, 03:31:07 PM
If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry.
That said, I'm not vehemently opposed to ESC systems, especially if there's an off switch (since I'd like to shut it off at the AutoX or track). Even very good drivers can be caught off guard (there are a lot of unpredictable situations on the road) and that extra safety net isn't a bad thing to have. I do not believe it should be a crutch or replacement for actual driving training and skill, though.
Dude, it's a Miata, I'm always taking corners too fast. :lol:
In the dry it has a ton of grip though, and it's weird how in the wet it's completely unsettled. I do drive slow in the wet and don't take corners fast but if I even touch the throttle around corners and I'm driving over the weird paint on the intersections it'll try to slide. :lol:
Quote from: Onslaught on November 17, 2010, 03:28:27 PM
That's part of the fun! When it's going on you can have that" Oh fuck" moment. But after it's all over with it was a rush. And the looks of the other drivers faces around you can be priceless.
Haha, I once hit the gas really hard in the rain going in a straight line and the back started wagging around everywhere and all the other drivers just slowed down and stayed behind me a good distance for the next few miles. :lol:
Quote from: Onslaught on November 17, 2010, 03:37:24 PM
Yes. Unless the corner had oil all over it from an accident that day you didn't know about. And it just started raining. I was going really damn slow and she still went around on me. Now I got it under control really fast and didn't hit a thing or even come close to the other cars. But shit can happen.
Sometimes it's fun however.
That would fall into the "unexpected sh!t happens" category. I doubt even ESC would have saved you in that case. I was similarly caught by a patch of ice on an off-ramp several years ago. I wasn't really going any faster than the car in front of me, but I happened to touch the gas when the back tires were on an icy patch and the tail end started to come around. Then I caught dry pavement while sideways and trying to correct and ended up spinning completely out the opposite direction from how I started to slide.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 17, 2010, 03:45:39 PM
Dude, it's a Miata, I'm always taking corners too fast. :lol:
In the dry it has a ton of grip though, and it's weird how in the wet it's completely unsettled. I do drive slow in the wet and don't take corners fast but if I even touch the throttle around corners and I'm driving over the weird paint on the intersections it'll try to slide. :lol:
Your tires aren't that wide and the car doesn't have that much power (does it even have a limited slip?). You shouldn't have any issues keeping the tail in line in the rain. If you can't even "touch" the gas without unintentionally sliding, you're either in too low a gear or your idea of "touching" the gas is too aggressive, or some combination.
Quote from: MX793 on November 17, 2010, 03:54:03 PM
Your tires aren't that wide and the car doesn't have that much power (does it even have a limited slip?). You shouldn't have any issues keeping the tail in line in the rain. If you can't even "touch" the gas without unintentionally sliding, you're either in too low a gear or your idea of "touching" the gas is too aggressive, or some combination.
I think my problem is that I don't know how to drive. :cry: :lol:
Quote from: thecarnut on November 17, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Haha, I once hit the gas really hard in the rain going in a straight line and the back started wagging around everywhere and all the other drivers just slowed down and stayed behind me a good distance for the next few miles. :lol:
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
Quote from: MX793 on November 17, 2010, 03:47:32 PM
That would fall into the "unexpected sh!t happens" category. I doubt even ESC would have saved you in that case. I was similarly caught by a patch of ice on an off-ramp several years ago. I wasn't really going any faster than the car in front of me, but I happened to touch the gas when the back tires were on an icy patch and the tail end started to come around. Then I caught dry pavement while sideways and trying to correct and ended up spinning completely out the opposite direction from how I started to slide.
You would be surprised how fast a dsc system can save your ass... a couple years ago I hit black ice in the middle of the turn and the backend snapped so fast I physically couldn't move the steering wheel fast enough to keep up.... in a split second later I heard a bunch of strange sounds and my car was perfectly straight
The dsc system in my rx8 is really a moot point for me and I doubt I've turned it off more then a handful of times in my ownership... its limits are set so high that you can get a nice amount of controlled yawn action before it does anything. About the only time disabling it is really needed is for doing donuts...
DSC systems can only anticipate so much. I remember when I floored that SL55 AMG into a turn how the car began to immediately go into a spin, and how awkward the DSC's reign in action was to catch it. Still fun
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 17, 2010, 09:52:31 AM
The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?
Thanks.
Not only that, but if a someone jumps out in front of you, do you automatically, 100% of the time remember to threshold brake, and such? NO. I've been living with this car for several months now, I'm pretty sure I know how to get around without ABS......this is not the first time where my wheels have locked up.
I know how to threshold brake, and contrary to popular belief, I DO know how ABS works, and a lot of other things, too.
I'm sorry if I don't come out the womb like freaking Michael Schumacher.
Quote from: rohan on November 17, 2010, 12:26:28 PM
That's a horrible excuse for bad driving. I agree it's probably not all his fault since we don't teach them nearly enough - we make police recruits and "retreds" and general re-training go on the skid-pad with the anti-locks turned off and they HAVE to be able to keep the car from a) locking up b) going into a spinout c) recover from an active spinout. If they can't do it they don't pass. There's gotta be a way to have the kids just learning go through something similar every year for their first 3 years so they get it engrained in their memory.
Yes, I'm a terrible person because I don't have years of experience and/or police training.
Quote from: r0tor on November 17, 2010, 06:30:49 PM
You would be surprised how fast a dsc system can save your ass... a couple years ago I hit black ice in the middle of the turn and the backend snapped so fast I physically couldn't move the steering wheel fast enough to keep up.... in a split second later I heard a bunch of strange sounds and my car was perfectly straight
Tell me about it. That stuff sounds strange.