A big George Takei "OH MYYYYY!!!" :wub:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-subaru-brz-everything-we-know/
11/18 reveal!
Most exciting car to come out in the last few years IMO. I still miss mine on some days. Mostly the looks and color than anything else. But if they fix the motor, this could be really special.
EDIT: Just saw the profile camo shot with the new taillights. Way better than the first one. That was my biggest issue with the looks previously. They were oddly shaped and looked really dated with the altezza style.
If they fix that torque hole in the middle of the power band, I might be interested. A 200-240 hp N/A 2.4L with a broad torque curve would be sweet.
They also need to do something about the exhaust note. Those FA engines sound horrible. I'd rather listen to nails on a chalk board than late model WRXs, especially at idle.
Nice! Glad they didn't let it languish.
A flat four can never sound good, though. :cry:
Seems to look good
Quote from: Laconian on November 05, 2020, 04:13:14 PM
A flat four can never sound good, though. :cry:
They can with the right exhaust. Older Subies with Unequal length headers sound OK. I've heard a few cat backs for Frizbees that sound decent. But the stock exhausts Subaru uses are designed to sound terrible.
Quote from: MX793 on November 06, 2020, 07:57:04 AM
They can with the right exhaust. Older Subies with Unequal length headers sound OK. I've heard a few cat backs for Frizbees that sound decent. But the stock exhausts Subaru uses are designed to sound terrible.
For the BRZ NA flat fours, the unequal length headers weren't great for performance. That's why everyone's sounds like garbage. I guess if this actually is the 2.4 liter turbo, then we can at least get the Subaru burble back if the layout allows for it.
Quote from: MrH on November 06, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
For the BRZ NA flat fours, the unequal length headers weren't great for performance. That's why everyone's sounds like garbage. I guess if this actually is the 2.4 liter turbo, then we can at least get the Subaru burble back if the layout allows for it.
I believe all newer Subie motors use equal length headers. The turbo FA motors in the WRX and Forester do (and sound even worse than the NA versions). Not sure about the new 2.4. The STI is still running the old motor, so it still has the burble.
There are some cat backs for the Frisbee that both help with the torque hole and greatly improve the sound. You'll never get that burble with equal length headers, but it doesn't mean the motor needs to sound like ass.
Quote from: MX793 on November 06, 2020, 09:33:43 AM
I believe all newer Subie motors use equal length headers. The turbo FA motors in the WRX and Forester do (and sound even worse than the NA versions). Not sure about the new 2.4. The STI is still running the old motor, so it still has the burble.
There are some cat backs for the Frisbee that both help with the torque hole and greatly improve the sound. You'll never get that burble with equal length headers, but it doesn't mean the motor needs to sound like ass.
Yeah, everything stock is running equal length right now but the old STI. People have tried unequal length headers on BRZs. In NA form, it's a performance hit compared to equal length. With aftermarket turbos on BRZ, people have tried both. Unequal get the classic subaru burble, and there isn't a big downgrade in performance like there is in with NA setups.
The new BRZ will undoubtedly be equal length, but I'm guessing there will be aftermarket products to bring back the burble
Quote from: MrH on November 06, 2020, 09:40:18 AM
Yeah, everything stock is running equal length right now but the old STI. People have tried unequal length headers on BRZs. In NA form, it's a performance hit compared to equal length. With aftermarket turbos on BRZ, people have tried both. Unequal get the classic subaru burble, and there isn't a big downgrade in performance like there is in with NA setups.
The new BRZ will undoubtedly be equal length, but I'm guessing there will be aftermarket products to bring back the burble
Like I said, you don't need the burble to not sound like ass. Tons of these things running the local SCCA circuit, most with stock headers and a cat back. They sound vastly better than stock. The burble is nice, but not at the expense of performance. But you can get the performance without sounding terrible, as the aftermarket has demonstrated through various cat back offerings.
Tomorrow's the day... I feel like I'm going to love the styling and be disappointed by the power train decision. I have this suspicion it will either be total carry-over or they make some miniscule tweak that adds 5 hp and doesn't address the hole.
Quote from: MX793 on November 17, 2020, 01:41:21 PM
I have this suspicion it will either be total carry-over or they make some miniscule tweak that adds 5 hp and doesn't address the hole.
This is the way.
228 hp 2.4 NA, 2815 lbs. 6 speed manual. I approve.
:wub:
This looks all business with no gimmickry or frippery. I like it.
Nice bum. :wub:
Love the subtle ducktail, and the tail lights.
Tail lights aren't really doing it for me.
Did they even change anything in the interior?
The rest looks great. Pleased with the power train upgrade.
Looks really good. Can't see myself buying one though. I suspect my next purchase will be between another Golf R, a WRX, or an EV of some kind.
Still, its nice to see there is still a market for legit sports cars. Hopefully this does well.
A better view. I mean, it's much nicer than the outgoing car, IMHO.
Oh my. :wub:
Lumpier. I like the old one.
Hot Take: Subaru BRZ is better looking than the Toyota Supra
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 18, 2020, 08:01:13 AM
Looks really good. Can't see myself buying one though. I suspect my next purchase will be between another Golf R, a WRX, or an EV of some kind.
Same.
Wow. This retains all the best parts of the old one and fixes the stuff I didn't like visually.
Doesn't sound like a big upgrade experience wise though? It looks more like a mid cycle refresh than anything. No turbo, probably same chassis, transmission etc. Even the interior looks like a mid cycle refresh.
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2020, 10:39:21 AM
Wow. This retains all the best parts of the old one and fixes the stuff I didn't like visually.
Doesn't sound like a big upgrade experience wise though? It looks more like a mid cycle refresh than anything. No turbo, probably same chassis, transmission etc. Even the interior looks like a mid cycle refresh.
The chassis is supposedly "new", albeit heavily based on the old one. Wheelbase is up slightly, so they did something more than apply a new skin.
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2020, 10:39:21 AM
Wow. This retains all the best parts of the old one and fixes the stuff I didn't like visually.
Doesn't sound like a big upgrade experience wise though? It looks more like a mid cycle refresh than anything. No turbo, probably same chassis, transmission etc. Even the interior looks like a mid cycle refresh.
Well you have the most experience of all of us here with this car, but it sounds like they changed what needed to be changed, and didn't what didn't.
At first I was going to say something negative about this looking more like a mid-cycle refresh instead of a new car, but I think that's the wrong viewpoint these days. Cars have gotten so good that it might not be necessary for things to be all-new all the time. BMW, for example, should have stopped 10 years ago...
Hmmmm, word is the FA24 2.4T in the 2022 WRX STi will be ~400 hp. :hmm:
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2020, 11:01:04 AM
Well you have the most experience of all of us here with this car, but it sounds like they changed what needed to be changed, and didn't what didn't.
I can only see visually though. Who knows what this thing is like to drive. I would imagine better, but I don't know if they fixed the issues I had with it.
Doesn't sound like the engine is dramatically different. Bigger, but how does the bore and stroke compare? Does it rev higher? Hopefully kills the dead zone, sounds better, etc.
It's promising, just wish there was a terbow :(
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2020, 11:52:16 AM
I can only see visually though. Who knows what this thing is like to drive. I would imagine better, but I don't know if they fixed the issues I had with it.
Doesn't sound like the engine is dramatically different. Bigger, but how does the bore and stroke compare? Does it rev higher? Hopefully kills the dead zone, sounds better, etc.
It's promising, just wish there was a terbow :(
Hopefully they fix the clutch and throttle pedals.
The Miata clutch is exactly how I like it - engagement starts right at the bottom of the pedal travel, and the throttle sensitivity is good (not too much, not too little)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 18, 2020, 11:54:18 AM
Hopefully they fix the clutch and throttle pedals.
The Miata clutch is exactly how I like it - engagement starts right at the bottom of the pedal travel, and the throttle sensitivity is good (not too much, not too little)
What did you not like about the throttle? I thought the clutch feel also sucked, but the throttle never stuck out as an issue to me.
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2020, 11:52:16 AM
I can only see visually though. Who knows what this thing is like to drive. I would imagine better, but I don't know if they fixed the issues I had with it.
Doesn't sound like the engine is dramatically different. Bigger, but how does the bore and stroke compare? Does it rev higher? Hopefully kills the dead zone, sounds better, etc.
It's promising, just wish there was a terbow :(
Redline is down to 7000. Peak torque is 184 lb-ft at 3700, up nearly 30 torques from the old car and at a much lower RPM.
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2020, 11:55:30 AM
What did you not like about the throttle? I thought the clutch feel also sucked, but the throttle never stuck out as an issue to me.
Seemed too sensitive. But maybe that's just because the clutch didn't engage until the top of the pedal travel.
Toyota DBW throttles have a reputation for being touchy at the on/off transition. My RAV is pretty jumpy. Need to be very gentle on tip-in. Being heavy, gutless, and having a slushbox helps, too.
Interestingly, Yamaha, which Toyota owns a large stake of, has similar problems with their DBW throttles.
Quote from: MX793 on November 18, 2020, 12:02:07 PM
Redline is down to 7000. Peak torque is 184 lb-ft at 3700, up nearly 30 torques from the old car and at a much lower RPM.
I saw that in the article, but the specs list 7000 rpm as the peak HP. The pictures of the tachometer make the redline look like it is around ~7500 RPM.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 18, 2020, 12:26:40 PM
I saw that in the article, but the specs list 7000 rpm as the peak HP. The pictures of the tachometer make the redline look like it is around ~7500 RPM.
I wonder if it has a soft redline and a hard redline, which is what my Mustang has.
Quote from: MX793 on November 18, 2020, 12:35:32 PM
I wonder if it has a soft redline and a hard redline, which is what my Mustang has.
Yellowline?
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Yellowline?
On some 80s cars. On my Mustang, it's a dashed/broken line for 500 rpm then it goes solid (and the rev limiter kicks in).
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 18, 2020, 12:11:54 PM
Seemed too sensitive. But maybe that's just because the clutch didn't engage until the top of the pedal travel.
You're right, that thing was an on off switch. The ND is much better.
Quote from: Rich on November 18, 2020, 03:46:12 PM
You're right, that thing was an on off switch. The ND is much better.
ND clutch is so good.
I'll pass
The looks are really growing on me. I thought the 1st gen was really good looking, and every aspect of this looks better except maybe the front end.
It'll be interesting to see how this ends up driving. They did a press event that showed the vehicle to journalists, and they got to ride in it, but no driving. But the engine essentially got a very similar make over like Mazda did with the Miata. Big increase in bore, same stroke, more torque across the board. Stickier tires, body is slightly longer, wider, and shorter. Interior changes addresses a lot of problems with the first gen.
This could be a real winner. Can't wait for ND2 vs BRZ comparisons. As much as I like the S2000, it's pushing 20 years old now. If the value continues to hold or go up like it has been, I could see myself getting an ND2 or new BRZ in another year or two.
The S2000 is a classic and the value will continue to rise; not so much the BRZ.
20 years from now a good S2000 will be highly sought after.
20 years from now??? That's a whole lot of maintenance and upkeep between now and then.
Quote from: MrH on December 19, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
20 years from now??? That's a whole lot of maintenance and upkeep between now and then.
How much depreciation on a BRZ in the first year or two?
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 19, 2020, 04:00:43 PM
How much depreciation on a BRZ in the first year or two?
The car is already 20 years old! You're saying I should keep it another 20 years? I'm not in the business of maintaining classic cars. I just want something fun in the garage for little hassle. If I can upgrade to something better dynamically and more modern for not a huge dollar amount, I'm going to do it.
We'll see how this new BRZ compares to the ND2. It'll likely be cheaper, which is a big benefit. The Miata is great, it's just expensive for what it is.
Yeah, there is a curve of depreciation before the appreciation really kicks back in- but he's right, the Miata is a dime a dozen while the good S2000s are already hard to find.
...but ND2s are better than S2000s in most areas.
Quote from: MrH on December 19, 2020, 10:35:26 PM
...but ND2s are better than S2000s in most areas.
The most valuable Porsche is not the bestest driving one...
I'm not a car speculator and investor with a 20 year time horizon. Cars are terrible investments.
Quote from: MrH on December 21, 2020, 06:36:54 AM
I'm not a car speculator and investor with a 20 year time horizon. Cars are terrible investments.
That's okay if you're not into that sort of thing. Hopefully if/when to sell it, someone who is willing to preserve it will get it.
I only mention it because some time ago I had a couple of cars I dearly wish I was able to keep.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 21, 2020, 09:30:45 AM
That's okay if you're not into that sort of thing. Hopefully if/when to sell it, someone who is willing to preserve it will get it.
I only mention it because some time ago I had a couple of cars I dearly wish I was able to keep.
This. There is a time and place to keep and maintain cars, unfortunately that window seems mostly limited to older age.
I wish I had my 91 SHO but couldn't afford repairs at the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsTc2rhipwk
a fun look at why the BRZ is a good thing
Just watched that. Camissa said he was going to make this video at some point.
I'm really excited for this car. It basically fixes the one glaring issue with the first BRZ, looks much better. Going to test drive this and the ND2 back to back when it comes out, but there's probably a good chance I end up with the BRZ.
will you sell the outback? not sure why you'd want two tin tops
Quote from: Rich on February 04, 2021, 01:04:07 PM
will you sell the outback? not sure why you'd want two tin tops
Scalpburn :lol:
(Spoken as a new member of the "gotta wear a hat when it's sunny" club)
Quote from: Rich on February 04, 2021, 01:04:07 PM
will you sell the outback? not sure why you'd want two tin tops
Nope. Keeping the Outback too. The ND2 is still in contention.
Quote from: Laconian on February 04, 2021, 01:09:37 PM
Scalpburn :lol:
(Spoken as a new member of the "gotta wear a hat when it's sunny" club)
:lol: that's part of it!
If I'm going to get something new, I want to drive it more than I'm driving the S2000. Driving to work is pretty much top up 90% of the time. It's too much highway sitting with 18 wheelers, or too hot during the summer. The S2000 is loud and cramped. It's fun top down on a back road, but the amount of driving I do in that situation isn't all that much.
There's the height aspect to it too. At 6'2", ND miatas and S2000s are fine in terms of space with the top down. Top up, and I can't really adjust my seat at all without my head hitting. The BRZ gives a lot more space.
Quote from: MrH on February 04, 2021, 01:21:31 PM
Nope. Keeping the Outback too. The ND2 is still in contention.
:lol: that's part of it!
If I'm going to get something new, I want to drive it more than I'm driving the S2000. Driving to work is pretty much top up 90% of the time. It's too much highway sitting with 18 wheelers, or too hot during the summer. The S2000 is loud and cramped. It's fun top down on a back road, but the amount of driving I do in that situation isn't all that much.
There's the height aspect to it too. At 6'2", ND miatas and S2000s are fine in terms of space with the top down. Top up, and I can't really adjust my seat at all without my head hitting. The BRZ gives a lot more space.
why not just drive the outback to work then, it has a top. What would your commute look like if you were to get the new job? If it's the same highway slog, I'd drive the DD for that and get something topless and powerful (M Roadster? Boxster?) that's much more fun to drive.
When you had the BRZ you even mentioned it was pretty pointless to have 2 cars with tin tops. If I have one new car that is dependable and will get me to work no matter what there is no way I'm going to have another new car. Imma get something that sounds wonderful, won't depreciate anymore, and is an absolute blast to drive on the backroads.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=575514851&zip=31211&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D31211%26city%3DMacon%26incremental%3Dall%26modelCodeList%3D911%26makeCodeList%3DPOR%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26location%3D%255Bobject%2BObject%255D%26maxPrice%3D35000%26state%3DGA%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Dinclude%26relevanceConfig%3Ddefault%26searchRadius%3D200%26isNewSearch%3Dfalse&numRecords=25&maxPrice=35000&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=911&makeCodeList=POR&searchRadius=200&makeCode1=POR&modelCode1=911&clickType=listing
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=573771371&zip=31211&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D31211%26city%3DMacon%26incremental%3Dall%26modelCodeList%3D911%26makeCodeList%3DPOR%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26location%3D%255Bobject%2BObject%255D%26maxPrice%3D35000%26state%3DGA%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Dinclude%26relevanceConfig%3Ddefault%26searchRadius%3D200%26isNewSearch%3Dfalse&numRecords=25&maxPrice=35000&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=911&makeCodeList=POR&searchRadius=200&makeCode1=POR&modelCode1=911&clickType=listing
Quote from: Rich on February 04, 2021, 01:40:07 PM
why not just drive the outback to work then, it has a top. What would your commute look like if you were to get the new job? If it's the same highway slog, I'd drive the DD for that and get something topless and powerful (M Roadster? Boxster?) that's much more fun to drive.
I do...I just rarely drive the S2000 as a result. New job would be the same grind, just 5 miles and 10 minutes shorter.
Only reason I'm considering: I can get something new with minimal financial impact because the S2000 has appreciated. I'm guessing in 5 years, the number of EVs is going to be big. Seems smart to get a relatively cheap, fun, ICE sports car now before things like that aren't available much longer.
I am good with picking between Impreza and Scrappy for work drive, which is almost all highway. I wear earbuds to listen to stuff or deaden road noise and crank up the car's stereo LOL.
By good I should say, "really love". If the weather looks like it'll be wet it's Impreza. Otherwise it's been top down every single day this winter. :lol:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 04, 2021, 06:44:50 PM
I am good with picking between Impreza and Scrappy for work drive, which is almost all highway. I wear earbuds to listen to stuff or deaden road noise and crank up the car's stereo LOL.
I wear earplugs when I drive for more than an hour in my dad's VW Beetle, since it's a very loud air cooled engine. I crank the stereo, which means the 12" sub is pounding away but I'm not going deaf. Love it!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 08, 2021, 11:30:48 AM
I wear earplugs when I drive for more than an hour in my dad's VW Beetle, since it's a very loud air cooled engine. I crank the stereo, which means the 12" sub is pounding away but I'm not going deaf. Love it!
:rockon: :rockon:
PLUS you're not upsetting neighbors, or sound littering a neighborhood!!!
Too soft looking
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/2022-toyota-gr-86-and-brz-1617596337.jpg)
Quote from: r0tor on April 05, 2021, 09:54:27 AM
Too soft looking
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/2022-toyota-gr-86-and-brz-1617596337.jpg)
I have to actually see it, because what looks bland in pics can look awesome in reality. When I first saw the Honda S2000 in photos, I though "meh, not bad", but the pics didn't do the design justice, with the pulled back front fenders and much sleeker appearance in the flesh.
Yeah those photos look like a boring Porsche wannabe.
There's some distortion due to a fisheye lens on the camera. I'll pass judgement when I see them in person. They do seem a bit curvier. Kind of remind me of the 90s Mitsubishi FTO, especially the tail lights.
I think they look pretty good..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZp7GE1rO-w
There are some very interesting suspension design choice differences between the two
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a40642318/2022-toyota-gr86-vs-2022-mazda-mx-5-compared/
I've solved all of the Miata pitfalls except the glovebox.
Springs + swaybar + even stiffer shock tower brace + tune + muffler = winner
Also buy a gently used model that includes the BBS/Brembo package for free.