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Auto Talk => ⚡ Electric Power ⚡ => Topic started by: shp4man on April 05, 2021, 10:14:52 AM

Title: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: shp4man on April 05, 2021, 10:14:52 AM
Biden, or whoever is actually running the country, wants to push for electric vehicles. Only problem is that the raw materials to make batteries mostly comes from China.
I swear to God, the enviro-wackos will destroy this country's economy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/04/04/electric-cars-batteries/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/04/04/electric-cars-batteries/)
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 05, 2021, 10:40:02 AM
The key is in research and development...Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air (https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air)

Rather than looking backwards, success lies in looking forward.  Battery development is still in its infancy. 
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: r0tor on April 05, 2021, 06:59:49 PM
Better invest in better battery tech then
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 06, 2021, 02:00:39 AM
Quote from: r0tor on April 05, 2021, 06:59:49 PM
Better invest in better battery tech then
This is why I jumped in on TSLA a while back. More for the engineering, power systems, & battery tech than the cars. My concern is Musk. He's brilliant & I like his basic principals grasp & the whole vertical integration approach. But he's on the Trump-child spectrum and gets into trouble with grownups.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: r0tor on April 06, 2021, 03:15:20 PM
Tesla currently uses a fraction of the cobalt its competition uses and has plans for cobalt free batteries ... That should calm shippy down
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 06, 2021, 04:24:22 PM
What will destroy our country's economy is refusing to invest in R&D for stuff the future world will want. Internal combustion's days are numbered.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 07, 2021, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: Laconian on April 06, 2021, 04:24:22 PM
What will destroy our country's economy is refusing to invest in R&D for stuff the future world will want. Internal combustion's days are numbered.
We're in that weird changeover zone, where the last of the outgoing old technology is better than the first of the incoming new technology. We need the appropriate skill sets.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 07, 2021, 07:50:05 PM
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 07, 2021, 07:40:42 PM
We're in that weird changeover zone, where the last of the outgoing old technology is better than the first of the incoming new technology. We need the appropriate skill sets.

Ransom Olds was inspired to build cars because of his disdain for smelly horses. At the time, cars were frightening, underdeveloped pieces of shit - horses probably seemed like a safer bet than horseless carriages at the time. And yet here we are - the upstart technology generated huge riches for Detroit and the country.

What skill sets do we need, exactly? IMO this is basically our generation's space race - if we let the nerds go nuts on fundamental research we'll ride the next 100 years of prosperity. Certainly we'll get a lot better ROI than the trillions wasted on that garbage F-35.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 08, 2021, 05:58:20 AM
Britain's railways were worn out after WWII finished. Six years of ultra heavy usage and deferred maintenance. They drew up a modernization plan and decided to ignore the engineers & stick with steam locomotion. This was politically expedient. Britain had lots of coal, which was cheap, would employ unionized miners and avoid the cost of importing oil for the diesel-electrics that had already taken over in the US. It would also employ the thousands of skilled men in the shops that had been building & maintaining steam locomotives for a century.

So they ended up with fleets tried & proven new steam engines - dirty & insanely expensive to maintain. On continental Europe, where the railways had been destroyed completely, they went electric.

The UK was left in the dust, ended up scrapping it all by the mid-60s and starting over, trying to develop the expertise that its competitors had in place & had been refining for 20 years.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: shp4man on April 08, 2021, 08:49:06 AM
An orderly transition that doesn't depend on resources from a hostile power and trillions of printed government dollars.

Common sense.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 08, 2021, 09:08:38 AM
Quote from: shp4man on April 08, 2021, 08:49:06 AM
An orderly transition that doesn't depend on resources from a hostile power and trillions of printed government dollars.

Common sense.
Corporate America should've thought of that about 50+ years ago...before they thought it was a good idea to ship all their manufacturing, and intellectual properties...to China; just to pad their bottom line.

Can't really blame Trump for that, or Biden.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 08, 2021, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 08, 2021, 09:08:38 AM
Corporate America should've thought of that about 50+ years ago...before they thought it was a good idea to ship all their manufacturing, and intellectual properties...to China; just to pad their bottom line.

Can't really blame Trump for that, or Biden.
What are you talking about? The world was locked down in tariff barriers & China was a shit-shovelling subsistence dump. Its only enterprise then was the slaughter of tens of millions of its citizens.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 08, 2021, 09:52:05 AM
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 08, 2021, 09:29:32 AM
What are you talking about? The world was locked down in tariff barriers & China was a shit-shovelling subsistence dump. Its only enterprise then was the slaughter of tens of millions of its citizens.
Trade barriers did protect US jobs...until they were dismantled and the good manufacturing jobs went off shore.  Oddly, the struggle to reverse that trend started with Obama and was further accelerated by the Trump administration and now Biden's administration.  The strategy is essentially the same with a couple of additional twists.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 08, 2021, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: shp4man on April 08, 2021, 08:49:06 AM
An orderly transition that doesn't depend on resources from a hostile power

What of OPEC?

Quote
trillions of printed government dollars.

"A 2017 study by the consulting firm Management Information Services, Inc. (MISI)[54] estimated the total historical federal subsidies for various energy sources over the years 1950–2016. The study found that oil, natural gas, and coal received $414 billion, $140 billion, and $112 billion (2015 dollars), respectively, or 65% of total energy subsidies over that period." We still peel off $20B a year for the oil industry. I don't know why, it's not like they're on the cutting edge of... anything.

And the massive unpaid bill due to all the environmental damage from extracting, refining, and burning fossil fuels? Global warming, Deepwater Horizon, Valdez? Leaded gasoline exposure dropping the IQ of an entire generation?
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: CaminoRacer on April 08, 2021, 11:33:33 AM
+1 to Kevin's posts. This is all a warning sign that the US needs to invest heavily in the R&D, manufacturing, and resources needed for future tech like EVs, not stick to our old school tech.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: r0tor on April 09, 2021, 10:00:24 AM
We pay directly with our own health from complications caused by air pollution and indirectly pay associated costs through climate change / environmental issues, wars in the middle east and billions spent on tanker and shipping security, and massive continued costs of upkeep to our crumbling infrastructure.

If the cost of a gallons of gas incorporated all of the above, nobody would be able to afford it.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 09, 2021, 11:12:16 AM
We'll have a schism for decades. In many third world countries you're lucky if the power stays on more than a few hours per day. There's no infrastructure... & money for improving it is stolen. This is a mild example of what I saw in SE Asia.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj49KLh9/IMG-0751.jpg)
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 09, 2021, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 09, 2021, 11:12:16 AM
We'll have a schism for decades. In many third world countries you're lucky if the power stays on more than a few hours per day. There's no infrastructure... & money for improving it is stolen. This is a mild example of what I saw in SE Asia.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj49KLh9/IMG-0751.jpg)
Obviously, there is a huge schism that exists now, however, this should not hold back advanced nations from advancing.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 09, 2021, 11:27:44 AM
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 09, 2021, 11:12:16 AM
We'll have a schism for decades. In many third world countries you're lucky if the power stays on more than a few hours per day. There's no infrastructure... & money for improving it is stolen. This is a mild example of what I saw in SE Asia.

Japan has worse powerline craziness and they are the infrastructure capital of the world.

https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+power+lines&safe=off&sxsrf=ALeKk02164qYKVlfR0MxEtrMvdueqN9Ocg:1617989249487&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio29rT1_HvAhVHgp4KHRsNDEMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1281&bih=718
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 09, 2021, 03:37:16 PM
Visiting Vietnam, then doing it in the raw rather than in a tour group, was one of the best educational experiences I've had. HCMC had been building a new metro in a joint venture with the Japanese. It was stopped dead when the Japanese pulled out because of the corruption. So the only option transportation option for regular folks remains a scooter. Millions of them. Unsmogged. Unbreathable air.

Westerners are targets for being pulled over by the cops, because they have money. So you carry two wallets. One for the bribe money stash, and then the real wallet, hidden away.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: AutobahnSHO on April 10, 2021, 07:13:40 PM
Imagine if we had kept on researching and refining nuclear power and could just go complete electric with little burning of anything.......
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 10, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 10, 2021, 07:13:40 PM
Imagine if we had kept on researching and refining nuclear power and could just go complete electric with little burning of anything.......

Yeah, ugh.. a dropped ball for sure.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 10, 2021, 07:53:46 PM
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 10, 2021, 07:13:40 PM
Imagine if we had kept on researching and refining nuclear power and could just go complete electric with little burning of anything.......
Certainly one of the options, but nuclear fusion seems to be the primary goal for the future.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 10, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 10, 2021, 07:53:46 PM
Certainly one of the options, but nuclear fusion seems to be the primary goal for the future.

We're still at the early phases of that, I fear.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Soup DeVille on April 10, 2021, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Laconian on April 10, 2021, 08:33:02 PM
We're still at the early phases of that, I fear.

And have been for forty years.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on April 10, 2021, 08:51:19 PM
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 10, 2021, 08:48:33 PM
And have been for forty years.
Some 14 year old genius will come along and solve it.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 12, 2021, 02:03:13 AM
Quote from: Laconian on April 10, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
Yeah, ugh.. a dropped ball for sure.
"Listen to your engineers.." as they say. It would be interesting to see what a 21st century nuke plant would look like, (vs the ones of 60 years-ago on which we base our anxieties.)
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: r0tor on April 12, 2021, 06:41:13 PM
Bull Gates is sponsoring a nuclear development company... Use liquid sodium instead of water to cool which reduces the chances of blowing the reactor up from overpressure and allows for natural circulation to drive the cooling system instead of external pumps.

...still way too massively expensive to ever be viable...
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on April 16, 2021, 10:56:35 PM
Aren't thorium and pellet reactors both safe against meltdowns?
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: CaminoRacer on April 17, 2021, 08:20:47 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/17/the-new-us-plan-to-rival-chinas-dominance-in-rare-earth-metals.html
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Morris Minor on April 18, 2021, 11:02:05 AM
This will be China's century, without question. They're lean & mean, intelligent, patient & ambitious. And they're graduating engineers from their schools and ours, not experts in LGBTQ underwater basketweaving.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Char on May 01, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
Instead of wasting resources and energy on selling another 'product' to correct an issue that was caused by cars in the first place, why don't we move to mass transit? I know it's not as sexy but...buying a 50k car isn't really helping the environment.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on May 01, 2021, 04:29:21 PM
Quote from: Char on May 01, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
Instead of wasting resources and energy on selling another 'product' to correct an issue that was caused by cars in the first place, why don't we move to mass transit? I know it's not as sexy but...buying a 50k car isn't really helping the environment.

Agreed, but those 50k cars have spurred on a heck of a lot of R&D in technologies which are essential for clean and cost effective mass transit. We have to play the hand we're dealt too, which involves a lot of sprawl. The economics of mass transit don't work for everyone.

Personally I want to see more people on ebikes. The amount of range and utility you can get from half a horsepower is astonishing. And you can commute faster than cars can at rush hour. Bike lanes don't gum up like car lanes do.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: AutobahnSHO on May 03, 2021, 06:52:10 PM
Quote from: Char on May 01, 2021, 03:18:52 PM
Instead of wasting resources and energy on selling another 'product' to correct an issue that was caused by cars in the first place, why don't we move to mass transit? I know it's not as sexy but...buying a 50k car isn't really helping the environment.

Have you ever tried it?

In many cities which have busses/trains you have to do a transfer, making a 20min drive a 90min public transportation adventure.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: GoCougs on May 06, 2021, 03:44:38 PM
IMO EVs (and autonomous driving) are still DOA from a mass adoption standpoint, for all sorts of reasons, including simple logic as presented by Char.

Mass transit is probably worse however - see the damage done to Japan, the world's most transit'd society on the planet by probably an order of magnitude.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Galaxy on May 14, 2021, 10:58:39 AM
And in other news US company QuantumScape will this year deliver the fist production ready solid state battery cells to Ford, and VW, they are targeting 2023 as the year where the first cars with this technology might hit the market. VW and QuantumScape also announced that they are building a cell plant in Salzgitter, Germany.

Looks like VW is spreading the risk they are also cooperating with Skandinavien company NorthVolt, who are also building a cell plant in Salzgitter.   
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: CaminoRacer on May 14, 2021, 11:06:33 AM
Quote from: Galaxy on May 14, 2021, 10:58:39 AM
And in other news US company QuantumScape will this year deliver the fist production ready solid state battery cells to Ford, and VW, they are targeting 2023 as the year where the first cars with this technology might hit the market. VW and QuantumScape also announced that they are building a cell plant in Salzgitter, Germany.

Looks like VW is spreading the risk they are also cooperating with Skandinavien company NorthVolt, who are also building a cell plant in Salzgitter.   

With these innovations it actually makes me hesitant to buy an EV again (or trade in our Bolt), because there are massive advancements on the way and I'd be better off waiting longer.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on May 14, 2021, 11:34:37 AM
Awwww shit, yeah! Solid state batteries are my trigger to get an EV. Plus a major failure for the Subaru - it's well broken in, it's had its dings and its upholestery scratches, and it's kind of liberating to have a useful car I don't give a shit about.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: SJ_GTI on May 14, 2021, 12:07:19 PM
Knowing that advancements in battery tech (even big ones) wouldn't specifically hold me back from getting an EV that met all my needs at the time I was shopping.

That being said if this stuff actually works out it will be a huge step forward and, I suspect, a point of no return for ICE cars.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on May 14, 2021, 12:16:06 PM
We'll take pains to prolong the life of the Subie until an acceptable EV comes out. I think we are there now in most regards, but I think we're right on the cusp of having a much better product, so it's better to wait. It's better for the environment to get a good full life out a car vs. replacing one prematurely anyway.

Miata will remain the garage queen fun car.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: SJ_GTI on May 14, 2021, 12:20:10 PM
Quote from: Laconian on May 14, 2021, 12:16:06 PM
We'll take pains to prolong the life of the Subie until an acceptable EV comes out. I think we are there now in most regards, but I think we're right on the cusp of having a much better product, so it's better to wait. It's better for the environment to get a good full life out a car vs. replacing one prematurely anyway.

Miata will remain the garage queen fun car.

Yeah no real downside to that approach.

There is a good chance that my current car (the Golf) is also the last new ICE car I own. I'm still a couple years from buying anything new anyway so I am just gonna wait and see where things are at.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: FoMoJo on May 14, 2021, 12:21:50 PM
What is the rate of degradation on EV batteries?

Any battery tool or appliance I've ever had starts to degrade after only months.  The Dyson vacuum cleaner that used to last about 40 minutes on a charge is now down to about 10-15 minutes.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: Laconian on May 14, 2021, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 14, 2021, 12:21:50 PM
What is the rate of degradation on EV batteries?

Incredibly low. Car charge controllers give the batteries a lot of buffer so they generally live unstressed lives.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: CaminoRacer on May 14, 2021, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Laconian on May 14, 2021, 12:16:06 PM
We'll take pains to prolong the life of the Subie until an acceptable EV comes out. I think we are there now in most regards, but I think we're right on the cusp of having a much better product, so it's better to wait. It's better for the environment to get a good full life out a car vs. replacing one prematurely anyway.

Miata will remain the garage queen fun car.

We bought a Bolt since we needed another commuting car, so it made complete sense at the time. There's a bit of temptation to upgrade every time a new EV comes out, but it would be smarter to hold onto the current car until it's actually in need of replacement. It'll be a nice jump from a Bolt to something with an 800v solid state battery system.
Title: Re: Switching to EVs will benefit.......you guessed it. China.
Post by: GoCougs on May 14, 2021, 06:39:23 PM
Meh, battery tech has been advancing for 125+ years, and still no dice, esp. that batteries with each new "evolution" become ever more expensive.

As has been the case for ~125 years, EVs have a place, but it is extremely narrow scope, and fairly narrow in scale. Just keep doing that.