Engine Oil FAQ

Started by S204STi, February 09, 2008, 08:03:58 PM

JWC

#30
Is there a current listing for the percentage of zinc in motor oils?

With the introduction of low-sulfur diesels, ZDDP has been reduced in diesel motor oils.  The only chart I can find is undated and list Kendall GT1 as having the highest content.  This is followed closely by Valvoline Racing 15w-40. 

Edit...the chart was dated...1999.

S204STi

Quote from: JWC on February 15, 2008, 08:56:56 PM
Is there a current listing for the percentage of zinc in motor oils?

With the introduction of low-sulfur diesels, ZDDP has been reduced in diesel motor oils.  The only chart I can find is undated and list Kendall GT1 as having the highest content.  This is followed closely by Valvoline Racing 15w-40. 

Edit...the chart was dated...1999.

According to this guy:  http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

The level of ZDDP was reduced from 0.14% to 0.10%.  So, if it previously had 1400ppm, it now has 1000ppm.

I think in real life, gasoline oils are down to around 800ppm.  Not sure about diesels, though.  Best bet is to look for VOA sheets on different oils.

Something to remember is that any new specification has to provide the same level of protection that the previous spec provided, and that includes flat-tappet cams.  Also, since ZDDP also acts as a detergent, other detergents are now present in a higher percentage to make up for the reduction.

The BITOG guys seem to love Shell Rotella T.

S204STi

Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
Wow - that's something you could probably sell - and completely dead-nuts on IMO. I'll provide a bit of diatribe to echo your sentiments:

3,000 mile OCI is indeed a myth - "severe conditions" are cop cars, tow trucks, taxis and other such vehicles which spend a significant amount of time idling, as ultimately engine oil life is a function of engine run time. Such vehicles have a lot more engine hours per mile. IMO, if one isn't using their vehicle in such a manner virtually full-time, then it's not "severe" conditions. Either way, you're 100% correct - the OLM will tell the real story.

Synthetic's advantages are not near what the manufacturers claim. The only real advantages IMO are that it may last longer, and that it is available in wide weight ranges, such as 5W-50 which was used in the previous-gen M3 IIRC. (FWIW, my Accord manual says that even with synthetic the standard OCI must be followed or the warranty is void.) Synthetics have a slight advantage at minimum pumping temp (actually an ASTM spec), but even conventional 5w-30 will pump down to -30F (synthetic 5W-30 seems to be usually -35F to -40F). Conventional oils today are so good nowadays that 10,000 mile OCI are not uncommon (4 cyl Accord for example per my manual).





I appreciate the support! 

JWC

Quote from: R-inge on February 15, 2008, 11:02:06 PM
According to this guy:  http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

The level of ZDDP was reduced from 0.14% to 0.10%.  So, if it previously had 1400ppm, it now has 1000ppm.

I think in real life, gasoline oils are down to around 800ppm.  Not sure about diesels, though.  Best bet is to look for VOA sheets on different oils.

Something to remember is that any new specification has to provide the same level of protection that the previous spec provided, and that includes flat-tappet cams.  Also, since ZDDP also acts as a detergent, other detergents are now present in a higher percentage to make up for the reduction.

The BITOG guys seem to love Shell Rotella T.

Aircooled forums recommend Rotella, but since the new Rotella has dropped the amount of zinc, have been searching for motor oils that have will boost the percentage.

S204STi

Quote from: JWC on February 16, 2008, 06:20:23 AM
Aircooled forums recommend Rotella, but since the new Rotella has dropped the amount of zinc, have been searching for motor oils that have will boost the percentage.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it.  I want to elaborate a bit more on something I said on the first page; ZDDP was first discovered as an antiscuffing agent in the 50s when Oldsmobile motors with flat-tappet cams were experiencing a high failure rate.  From that time on some level of ZDDP has always been present.

Now, it may seem like the current reduction in ZDDP is dangerous, but the fact is that even current levels are way higher than they were back when they initially began to add it to your engine oil.  Add to that the other improvements of SM oil such as improved film strength, and the fact that it HAS to be certified to protect flat-tappet cams, and you can see that the hubbub over SM rated oils is kinda silly.

Heck, just look at the amount of zinc and phosporous remaining in a typical UOA, and you will see that there is plenty of reserve even after a few thousand miles.  This indicates to me that we are at a good level still to protect older engines.

S204STi

Here, read this VOA thread about Motorcraft 15w-40 diesel oil.  Motorcraft 15w-40.

Notice how zinc and phosphorous are still around 1000ppm?

I'm pretty sure, based on the date this was posted, that the fluid is SM/CJ4.  I could be wrong however.

JWC

Quote from: R-inge on February 16, 2008, 08:29:06 AM
Here, read this VOA thread about Motorcraft 15w-40 diesel oil.  Motorcraft 15w-40.

Notice how zinc and phosphorous are still around 1000ppm?

I'm pretty sure, based on the date this was posted, that the fluid is SM/CJ4.  I could be wrong however.

Haven't read the link, but the level you mentioned is the current level.

Eye of the Tiger

I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

280Z Turbo

Quote from: NACar on February 16, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.

You'll find out when you throw a rod.

Secret Chimp

Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?


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Soup DeVille

Quote from: Secret Chimp on February 16, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?

It's now been in the engine.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 16, 2008, 09:23:02 PM
You'll find out when you throw a rod.

i'll throw a rod at your face
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

280Z Turbo

Quote from: NACar on February 17, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
i'll throw a rod at your face

That will be quite easy to do when it shoots out of a hole in your oil pan onto the ground.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 17, 2008, 12:13:42 AM
That will be quite easy to do when it shoots out of a hole in your oil pan onto the ground.

damn straight
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

S204STi

Quote from: NACar on February 16, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.

As long as it is API certified to meet the minimum specs set by your manufacturer, there is no need to shy from recycled oil.  It is basically sent back and re-refined, and all the impurities are removed, so there is nothing wrong with using it.

S204STi

Quote from: Secret Chimp on February 16, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?

That's a good thing; it means your detergents and dispersants are doing a good job of picking up contaminants and suspending them in solution.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: R-inge on February 17, 2008, 01:01:00 PM
That's a good thing; it means your detergents and dispersants are doing a good job of picking up contaminants and suspending them in solution.

What if your new oil turns into black sludge after the first day?

that's what this thing does :lol:

2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

r0tor

i take a bit of exception to the break-in paragraph... because there are special factory fills out there using modified oils that have less anti-friction additives to promote break-in. Its also not a myth of synthetics being less "lubrious" because often times synthetics by nature can hold more additives and use a higher grade additive package because they can afford to do so in the pricing.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

i'd also be against any recommendation of shelling out money for UOA's or putting much faith into them because of the size of the reservoir and location of oil drains does not really promote getting a decent sample... most of the time you end up getting a varying amount of the scrap laying in the oil pan and hance the UOA's tend to look too erradict to draw any true conclusions from (but people do anyway... ugh)
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

280Z Turbo

How often do you add oil, r0tor?

S204STi

Quote from: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:18:55 PM
i take a bit of exception to the break-in paragraph... because there are special factory fills out there using modified oils that have less anti-friction additives to promote break-in. Its also not a myth of synthetics being less "lubrious" because often times synthetics by nature can hold more additives and use a higher grade additive package because they can afford to do so in the pricing.

"Lubricious" is a word one of the engineers used, I just assumed it was a word.

Maybe some engines vary in terms of break-in needs, but I would assume that in most cases it doesn't make a lick of difference.

S204STi

Quote from: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:24:38 PM
i'd also be against any recommendation of shelling out money for UOA's or putting much faith into them because of the size of the reservoir and location of oil drains does not really promote getting a decent sample... most of the time you end up getting a varying amount of the scrap laying in the oil pan and hance the UOA's tend to look too erradict to draw any true conclusions from (but people do anyway... ugh)

Catch the oil in a seperate container as it spills out; not that hard.  And again, if automotive engineers rely so heavily on them why can't we as owners?

r0tor

Quote from: R-inge on February 18, 2008, 10:20:24 PM
Catch the oil in a seperate container as it spills out; not that hard.  And again, if automotive engineers rely so heavily on them why can't we as owners?

I worked at an oil company - while they did use real world testing of employee cars and dyno testing of manufacturer supplied cars and engines, the cars themselves were fitted with taps in the oil lines to get a clean sample of the engine oil.  The testing was also done after thousands of hours of lab testing just to make sure the lab results were comparable to the real world - not really used to help formulate the oil.  If you want really good results, tapping oil off the bottom of the pan is just not good. 

Currently at work I run oil analysis on the stuff at our plant and any time you tap off a resevoir, its required to drain at least a gallon off so you get a clean sample.  For machinery having less then a few gallons, we just change the oil and screw the analysis because its just not worth it.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

S204STi

Quote from: r0tor on February 19, 2008, 05:48:53 AM
I worked at an oil company - while they did use real world testing of employee cars and dyno testing of manufacturer supplied cars and engines, the cars themselves were fitted with taps in the oil lines to get a clean sample of the engine oil.  The testing was also done after thousands of hours of lab testing just to make sure the lab results were comparable to the real world - not really used to help formulate the oil.  If you want really good results, tapping oil off the bottom of the pan is just not good. 

Currently at work I run oil analysis on the stuff at our plant and any time you tap off a resevoir, its required to drain at least a gallon off so you get a clean sample.  For machinery having less then a few gallons, we just change the oil and screw the analysis because its just not worth it.

Thats very good to know!  My question would be this: What if you're just analyzing the oil for certain trace metals and chemicals, such as most consumer UOAs do?  Would having other contaminants ruin your readings?

Also, with even that considered, is it still useful as even a guide in tracking trends over time?

Danish

Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 10:32:03 PM
The other issue I completely forgot about was oil filters - they're designed to be changed only every other oil change, but who does that any more?

Who runs clean oil through a dirty filter?
Quote from: Lebowski on December 17, 2008, 05:46:10 PM
No advice can be worse than Coug's, in any thread, ever.

r0tor

Quote from: R-inge on February 20, 2008, 08:38:43 AM
Thats very good to know!  My question would be this: What if you're just analyzing the oil for certain trace metals and chemicals, such as most consumer UOAs do?  Would having other contaminants ruin your readings?

Also, with even that considered, is it still useful as even a guide in tracking trends over time?

The ultimate problem is getting it from the drain pan is that one sample you might get a blob of oil pan sludge in and the next time you won't.  Ultimately everything thats in the drain pan came from your engine, but if your getting various amount of concentrated junk in a sample its hard to draw a real conclusion.  With the small sample size, just a few drops of the concentrated goop that we all know lines our oil pans can throw results off.

Secret Chimp asked why his week old oil looks the same as his 3500 mile oil did.  Its because theres junk in the system that builds up and the dispersants in the new oil break some of it down and suspend it in the oil.  The same junk causing this is the same junk that could offset your trends by large amounts.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Danish on February 21, 2008, 03:26:39 AM
Who runs clean oil through a dirty filter?

The oil filter is only dirty on one side if it's working right.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

S204STi

Quote from: r0tor on March 01, 2008, 10:36:19 AM
The ultimate problem is getting it from the drain pan is that one sample you might get a blob of oil pan sludge in and the next time you won't.  Ultimately everything thats in the drain pan came from your engine, but if your getting various amount of concentrated junk in a sample its hard to draw a real conclusion.  With the small sample size, just a few drops of the concentrated goop that we all know lines our oil pans can throw results off.

Secret Chimp asked why his week old oil looks the same as his 3500 mile oil did.  Its because theres junk in the system that builds up and the dispersants in the new oil break some of it down and suspend it in the oil.  The same junk causing this is the same junk that could offset your trends by large amounts.

Huh, good stuff.  I guess then that if you want to use UOA, to take the results with a grain of salt and still stick to your owner's manual guidelines.  I will modify the original post with that info.

Eye of the Tiger

2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

r0tor

Quote from: R-inge on March 01, 2008, 06:35:57 PM
Huh, good stuff.  I guess then that if you want to use UOA, to take the results with a grain of salt

yup, not saying they are completely worthless, but do need some sanity checking...
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed