4Runner Vs. Grand Cherokee

Started by BENZ BOY15, October 02, 2020, 10:20:40 AM

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 08:31:11 AM
He never confirmed how much snow he actually deals with.  He likely doesn't need "the best" all-terrain system on the market.  If you're not blazing trails through really deep, heavy snow, most AWD systems are plenty adequate to get you where you're going.  If you live in some remote mountain cabin that gets daily snowfall or regular heavy snowfall and the roads only get plowed 3 days a week, yeah, you need something serious.  If your typical winter road only has a dusting to maybe 3" or 4" of snow on a bad day, a soft-roader AWD with good snow tires is absolutely enough.
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be.  These systems that rely on braking are crap.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Morris Minor

JGCs have been around so long that the bugs have been ironed out, so reliability is not horrible. Plus it's being replaced for 2021 so there are deals to had on the outgoing model.

Joe, since snow is pretty much guaranteed in your area, do you have somewhere you could store winter tires? A decent set of those should offset any anxieties about whether your AWD system is rated 3 or 5 stars.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MX793

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2020, 08:36:54 AM
JGCs have been around so long that the bugs have been ironed out, so reliability is not horrible. Plus it's being replaced for 2021 so there are deals to had on the outgoing model.

Joe, since snow is pretty much guaranteed in your area, do you have somewhere you could store winter tires? A decent set of those should offset any anxieties about whether your AWD system is rated 3 or 5 stars.

The design bugs are ironed out, but Chrysler's "reliability" problems are as much poor QC as they are design bugs.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be.  These systems that rely on braking are crap.

AWD doesn't help you turn or stop.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 08:21:26 AM
And you'll have reduced traction on all four wheels, not two only.

Are you familiar with actual snow driving?  Many times in remote areas the roads get narrow from plowing and you are forced to put the right side wheels in the snow berm to let opposing traffic through
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

#65
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 08:41:02 AM
AWD doesn't help you turn or stop.

Turning and stopping is only an issue of you can first GO.  Also the better the system, the more confidence you get, the slower you can go up hills and through drifts as you aren't needing to use momentum.

A GOOD awd system absolutely helps you turn.  It will balance power to prevent understeer or oversteer.  A heavily fwd biased awd system will not do that effectively.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 08:54:57 AM
Turning and stopping is only an issue of you can first GO.  Also the better the system, the more confidence you get, the slower you can go up hills and through drifts as you aren't needing to use momentum.

A GOOD awd system absolutely helps you turn.  It will balance power to prevent understeer or oversteer.  A heavily fwd biased awd system will not do that effectively.

Point being, getting going in the first place is among the easier aspects of driving in the snow.  If you are so bad at driving in the snow that simply getting moving is a problem, how well are you going to fare when you have to negotiate a slippery turn or come to a stop?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 08:52:45 AM
Are you familiar with actual snow driving?  Many times in remote areas the roads get narrow from plowing and you are forced to put the right side wheels in the snow berm to let opposing traffic through

Umm, yeah: and that neither involves you climbing a steep grade or having diagonally opposite wheels on pavement.

Yes, some AWD systems are better than others. All of them have an advantage over regular 2WD and all of them are basically sufficient for what they were designed to do.

Its not shocking that very few are actually designed to climb out of a loading ramp at a 45 degree angle.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be.  These systems that rely on braking are crap.

The system in my Land Cruiser relies on braking, as does the Disco in Rotor's goofy video.
There's more to it than that.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

Furthermore, if you have to go over mountain passes heavily fwd biased systems that use traction control seriously sucks.  You need a decent a mount of torque to go up a significant grade.  The lousy systems out there can only deliver a fraction of engine torque to the rear so the system becomes either heavily fwd or power gets completely cut.  Then add in brakes being used to clamp down tire spin on top of the previous issue - you now need to shuffle even more torque which only complicated matters.  It's not uncommon for light duty systems just to overheat and divert to 100% FWD in these situations or just completely stop with not enough power to climb.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 09:02:29 AM
Point being, getting going in the first place is among the easier aspects of driving in the snow.  If you are so bad at driving in the snow that simply getting moving is a problem, how well are you going to fare when you have to negotiate a slippery turn or come to a stop?

What's worse...

A dude gunning it up a hill because he is afraid of getting stuck, or someone just pussy footing it up the hill because he can do that without getting stuck?
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 09:06:02 AM
The system in my Land Cruiser relies on braking, as does the Disco in Rotor's goofy video.
There's more to it than that.
Does it only rely on braking?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

FoMoJo

I'd look into a Bronco.  They've got some magic going on.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 10:22:38 AM
Does it only rely on braking?

Not sure what you mean.

The 4WD is always-on through a viscous center diff,  but all the traction control and stability are done through brakes.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

CaminoRacer

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 10:24:02 AM
I'd look into a Bronco.  They've got some magic going on.

Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

FoMoJo

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 16, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
There's a Bronco Sport, smaller cheaper version.  Not sure of its capabilities though.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

veeman

Since Benzy said he was getting a 1 of 2 year old model, he could get a Subaru Ascent.  That SUV is not so trucky and has a better AWD system than the majority of other car based SUVs.  Of the two he asked about, the Grand Cherokee is a great looking, very comfortable, very capable SUV.  It's reliability isn't stellar but it's not Land Rover bad either. 

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 01:03:53 PM
Not sure what you mean.

The 4WD is always-on through a viscous center diff,  but all the traction control and stability are done through brakes.
I always thought that Torsen type differentials, whether for RWD for FWD or 4WD (with a third differential in the transfer case) was ideal for best traction control.  Stability control always seemed a bit excessive.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 01:49:40 PM
I always thought that Torsen type differentials, whether for RWD for FWD or 4WD (with a third differential in the transfer case) was ideal for best traction control.  Stability control always seemed a bit excessive.

Torsen diffs have limitations.  My Mustang has a Torsen.  Great on the track, since it doesn't resist turn in under braking like a traditional limited slip.  However, if one wheel has no traction, then it behaves like an open diff.  For an off-road focused vehicle, they are a poor choice.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 02:09:21 PM
Torsen diffs have limitations.  My Mustang has a Torsen.  Great on the track, since it doesn't resist turn in under braking like a traditional limited slip.  However, if one wheel has no traction, then it behaves like an open diff.  For an off-road focused vehicle, they are a poor choice.
I thought that the whole purpose of a Torsen type differential was to transfer power from the wheel of least resistance.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Morris Minor

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 16, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
Real estate agents need something that connotes some level of professional success, but nothing excessive that hints at rapine commissions. In mountainous areas the vehicles & transmissions work really hard - so you need something that will handle that. Grand Cherokee should do that.
https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 02:23:40 PM
I thought that the whole purpose of a Torsen type differential was to transfer power from the wheel of least resistance.

An open differential delivers equal torque to both wheels.  When one wheel loses traction, the torque at that wheel is greatly reduced, and so the torque delivered to the other wheel is similarly reduced.  If one wheel is on an extremely slippery surface like ice, or lifted off the ground, zero torque is transmitted to the other wheel.

Torsens are designed to transfer torque from whichever wheel is spinning fastest to the wheel that is spinning slowest.  The amount of transfer is some multiple of whatever torque is being delivered to the faster wheel, that multiple being determined by the torque bias setup of the particular differential.  Let's say it's 2:1.  So if one wheel starts to slip, the other wheel will get 2x the torque that is being delivered to the slipping wheel, whereas an open diff would only deliver 1x the torque to the slower wheel.  On asphalt, where the coefficient of sliding friction is still significant, this means the other wheel will get a decent amount of torque delivered to it.  On ice, or if a wheel is completely lifted off the ground, the torque that would be delivered to that wheel is basically 0 and 2x 0 is 0.  The vehicle won't move and the tire with no grip just spins.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2020, 02:31:01 PM
Real estate agents need something that connotes some level of professional success, but nothing excessive that hints at rapine commissions. In mountainous areas the vehicles & transmissions work really hard - so you need something that will handle that. Grand Cherokee should do that.
https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm

The Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus twin are classic RE agent vehicles. I think Benzboi used to have the Lexus one.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 02:44:11 PM
An open differential delivers equal torque to both wheels.  When one wheel loses traction, the torque at that wheel is greatly reduced, and so the torque delivered to the other wheel is similarly reduced.  If one wheel is on an extremely slippery surface like ice, or lifted off the ground, zero torque is transmitted to the other wheel.

Torsens are designed to transfer torque from whichever wheel is spinning fastest to the wheel that is spinning slowest.  The amount of transfer is some multiple of whatever torque is being delivered to the faster wheel, that multiple being determined by the torque bias setup of the particular differential.  Let's say it's 2:1.  So if one wheel starts to slip, the other wheel will get 2x the torque that is being delivered to the slipping wheel, whereas an open diff would only deliver 1x the torque to the slower wheel.  On asphalt, where the coefficient of sliding friction is still significant, this means the other wheel will get a decent amount of torque delivered to it.  On ice, or if a wheel is completely lifted off the ground, the torque that would be delivered to that wheel is basically 0 and 2x 0 is 0.  The vehicle won't move and the tire with no grip just spins.
That doesn't make sense.  If one wheel is off the ground, the wheel that is on the ground, the one with potential grip, will still have whatever measure of torque delivered to it whether the bias ration is whether it's 2:1, 3:1 or 5:1.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

#84
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 03:25:10 PM
That doesn't make sense.  If one wheel is off the ground, the wheel that is on the ground, the one with potential grip, will still have whatever measure of torque delivered to it whether the bias ration is whether it's 2:1, 3:1 or 5:1.

Think of an open diff as a Torsen with a 1:1 torque bias.  If one wheel is aloft and the other grounded, the car doesn't move.  The grounded wheel will get the same torque as is required to turn the lofted wheel.  For the sake of argument, let's say that the friction in the driveline means it takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel.  The grounded wheel gets 1 ft-lb, not enough to move the car.

Now, say we have a Torsen with a 3:1 bias.  It takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel, so the grounded wheel gets 3 ft-lb of torque.  Still not enough to propel the vehicle.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 03:43:09 PM
Think of an open diff as a Torrent with a 1:1 torque bias.  If one wheel is aloft and the other grounded, the car doesn't move.  The grounded wheel will get the same torque as is required to turn the lofted wheel.  For the sake of argument, let's say that the friction in the driveline means it takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel.  The grounded wheel gets 1 ft-lb, not enough to move the car.

Now, say we have a Torsen with a 3:1 bias.  It takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel, so the grounded wheel gets 3 ft-lb of torque.  Still not enough to propel the vehicle.
On ice, it would work, with controlled throttle.  Applying the brake moderately, with one wheel suspended, would increase the torque.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
On ice, it would work, with controlled throttle.  Applying the brake moderately, with one wheel suspended, would increase the torque.

Yes, if you apply the brake to the free wheel, you will transfer torque to the wheel with traction.  This is true of an open diff as well.  The Torsen will transfer more to the brake torque than the open diff.  But absent a TCS system, Torsen behaves like an open diff when one wheel has no traction.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 03:53:33 PM
Yes, if you apply the brake to the free wheel, you will transfer torque to the wheel with traction.  This is true of an open diff as well.  The Torsen will transfer more to the brake torque than the open diff.  But absent a TCS system, Torsen behaves like an open diff when one wheel has no traction.
You would apply the brake to all wheels.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
You would apply the brake to all wheels.

Applying the brake to all wheels increases the torque required to move the vehicle.  And if we're talking about a RWD vehicle, the front brakes are much stronger than the rears.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 16, 2020, 03:02:07 PM
The Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus twin are classic RE agent vehicles. I think Benzboi used to have the Lexus one.

He had the GX, not the LX. Which is a Land Cruiser, but not one we get. 
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator