Mazda's defense of the weeny battery packs in the MX-30 is that most Americans aren't actually going to need it in practice. It might be technically correct but buyers are going to want a "break glass" solution to deal with the occasional long distance trip without the lil' pack holding them back.
Has there been any investigation about the feasibility of battery swaps for short term range extension rentals? Everything I've found has been about swapping the car's primary pack, but it seems to me like it could be pretty revolutionary to have a system that could be upgraded to suit the driver's needs on a temporary or a permanent basis. That way the car could be "right sized" to 98% of its driving, with less spent on batteries, less energy used to haul around inert batteries, and fewer resources tied up in those batteries.
Another solution could be to give buyers several days' worth of credits for ICE rentals.
IIRC it was a firm in Israel which proved that the swappable battery concept would fail and be an ecological disaster. If I remember correctly they stated that EV "gas stations" would need heavy lifting equipment to swap batteries in EVs. That was their first point.
Their second point was that this would more or less force all carmakers to use a similar platform and similar batteries that are interchangeable. Won't happen (charging stations - at least here - are all different to use a real hassle, I see my GF going insane, especially when she can't charge at some stations because.... I have no idea...).
Third, and this is the most important factor. Millions of spare swappable batteries would require an insane amount of rare earths AND they would all become useless/outdated overnight if there is a major breakthrough in battery technology.
This is why I believe in a mix future: ICE running on eFuels (at least the German government is looking into it), Hydrogen for Fuel Cell cars and of course the BEV. We still need the internal combustion engine - it has so many advantages also in terms of convenience. They've become so efficient it's amazing. I mean if I can achieve 6.7 L / 100 km in mixed driving including city traffic, speeding on the Autobahn... with an engine that is around 30% "efficient".... That's pretty darn amazing.
I've been listening to a lot of podcasts from chemists and engineers here on the topic of eFuels. Ideally they (and Hydrogen) should be produced in countries which have a lot of "renewable energy" such as those in the hot North African desert or windy Chile, Peru and Argentina where there essentially is 99% of that "free energy" available throughout the year. Countries like Morocco with their many high-tech solar parks could become wealthy exporters of eFuels and Hydrogen. Best of all, the engineers were explaining that eFuel from Morocco would cost us about 1.20 Euro at the pumps in Germany, which was pretty much the price of fuel here before we got raped with a carbon tax (fuel price today is 1.80 Euros for gasoline E5).
Check this out by the way...
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/02/the-hongqi-e202-ev-concept-will-spawn-a-production-model-with-battery-swap-tech/
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 23, 2023, 01:31:16 AM
IIRC it was a firm in Israel which proved that the swappable battery concept would fail and be an ecological disaster. If I remember correctly they stated that EV "gas stations" would need heavy lifting equipment to swap batteries in EVs. That was their first point.
Their second point was that this would more or less force all carmakers to use a similar platform and similar batteries that are interchangeable. Won't happen (charging stations - at least here - are all different to use a real hassle, I see my GF going insane, especially when she can't charge at some stations because.... I have no idea...).
Third, and this is the most important factor. Millions of spare swappable batteries would require an insane amount of rare earths AND they would all become useless/outdated overnight if there is a major breakthrough in battery technology.
the last point is the kicker. You'd have to have millions of additional batteries so that ther were enough charged and ready to go in every direction you might travel.
Also you may get an older battery that has bad cells and that's what youre driving on the other 99% of the time that you aren't taking road trips.
But a part of that is actually incorrect. Batteries don't use rare earth metals. Magnets do in the electric motors (just like they are used in the speakers and alternators in gas cars). But other than that there are no rare earth metals in EVs. Rare earth metals are a set of 15 Lanthinides plus Scandium and Yttrium that have a lot of high tech uses (from cell phones to hard drives, to flat screen TVs), but very little in EVs or regular gas cars. Lithium is not rare (nor is it a rare earth metal). And actually rare earth metals are not rare, either, the "rare" comes from the fact that for metals they have some rare properties.
If you're talking Cobalt in EV batteries, that's problematic as Cobalt is mines with child slave labor in the Congo. SO EVs are using less and less of it (with Tesla now using none). But you know what uses more Cobalt than EVs? Refining gasoline to get the sulfur out. So if you're worried about Cobalt use, and child labor in the Congo, stop driving gasoline cars.
Tesla tried this, right? Elon's reason for canceling it was that it is much more expensive to design and manufacture the car so, and the swap itself was much more expensive than fast charging. Plus, you'd need rather expensive/extensive infrastructure in ubiquitous locations to house, charge and inventory myriad batteries safely,
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2023, 11:21:08 AM
Tesla tried this, right? Elon's reason for canceling it was that it is much more expensive to design and manufacture the car so, and the swap itself was much more expensive than fast charging. Plus, you'd need rather expensive/extensive infrastructure in ubiquitous locations to house, charge and inventory myriad batteries safely,
No. Elon lied about being able to do it in order to cash in on government subsidies. It never existed.
https://dailykanban.com/2015/06/23/tesla-battery-swap-carbs-bridge-to-nowhere/
I think the industry's general direction right now is the most feasible - 60-100 kwh battery packs that provide 250-350 miles of range, with 800v systems for 20 minute recharges.
Forklift battery changes suck and take too long in warehouses, judging from that it wouldn't save much if any time compared to a 350 kw charger.
Quote from: MrH on February 23, 2023, 11:28:49 AM
No. Elon lied about being able to do it in order to cash in on government subsidies. It never existed.
https://dailykanban.com/2015/06/23/tesla-battery-swap-carbs-bridge-to-nowhere/
"Tried" ;).
But he was correct - quick battery swap is much too expensive for any sort of macro application (i.e., same ol', some ol' for all aspects of macro EV adoption).
PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.
PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.
So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 23, 2023, 12:07:19 PM
PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.
So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.
BRILLIANT
The Koenigsegg Regera already had the PHEV thing figured out. 1700 HP :partyon:
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 23, 2023, 12:07:19 PM
PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.
So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.
Or just a 400 lb add in battery pack.
The rather basic hybrid is and probably has always been the answer. 50mpg+ put them in spitting distance of actual fuel efficiency of EVs accounting for the grid makeup, have minimal resource usage, minimal weigh gain, minimal downsides.
We could halve fuel usage without any struggles fairly quickly.
Meh, plug-in hybrids have been around a long time but nobody really bought them.
I think PHEVs have crossed a certain range threshold that makes them super compelling. (i.e. they just caught up to the old Volt :lol:) A LFP battery pack large enough to do 60mi real world miles per "fill" would be amazing. You could drain it deeply every day, charge it at night, and it would still outlast the rest of the car. Your average American would barely need to burn any gas.
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 23, 2023, 12:07:19 PM
PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.
So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.
Nope. Gas generators in or around living spaces are suicide.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
Meh, plug-in hybrids have been around a long time but nobody really bought them.
Exactly. The Volt was an excellent car, but the right wing freaked out and called it an "Obama car" (even though development was started in 2006) and the oil companies slagged it every chance they got in the media. And now those same people are crying that a PHEV like that would be the ideal car and EVs are the new bogeyman.
While I generally agree with the PHEV concept - Prius vs Prius prime... In exchange for more several thousand more dollars, several hundred pounds of weight, dealing with cords, and increased resource usage you can save a max of 0.8 gallons of gas per trip.
Does all that really make sense?
Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2023, 08:54:08 AM
While I generally agree with the PHEV concept - Prius vs Prius prime... In exchange for more several thousand more dollars, several hundred pounds of weight, dealing with cords, and increased resource usage you can save a max of 0.8 gallons of gas per trip.
Does all that really make sense?
A good PHEV should act as 100% EV for your daily commute and only need the ICE for longer trips. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 24, 2023, 09:28:01 AM
A good PHEV should act as 100% EV for your daily commute and only need the ICE for longer trips. :huh:
In shear savings your spending what a max of $0.50 to recharge at over home for a trip vs $1.50 of gas per trip where you use the entire range . For that $1 of saving you have a heavier car, stiffer suspension because if that, less storage space, and used 15x more material over the regular hybrid for the battery pack.
Eh...
Quote from: ChrisV on February 24, 2023, 07:01:05 AM
Exactly. The Volt was an excellent car, but the right wing freaked out and called it an "Obama car" (even though development was started in 2006) and the oil companies slagged it every chance they got in the media. And now those same people are crying that a PHEV like that would be the ideal car and EVs are the new bogeyman.
They knew they lost so they moved the goalposts. It's not being pro-PHEV either, it's about being contrarian.
Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2023, 10:05:43 AM
In shear savings your spending what a max of $0.50 to recharge at over home for a trip vs $1.50 of gas per trip where you use the entire range . For that $1 of saving you have a heavier car, stiffer suspension because if that, less storage space, and used 15x more material over the regular hybrid for the battery pack.
Eh...
If you got a new Prius Prime and commuted 20 miles roundtrip for the life of the car, you would basically never burn any gas. The fuel bill would disappear. Charging 12kWh is a dollar where I live.
You guys are talking about bogeymen....that your hypothetical bogeymen believe in :lol:
Co-worker had a Volt he raves about, except he said it always smelled like antifreeze. My bet is heater core issue?
On the other hand, a PHEV could be the choice in some cases between owning one car and owning two.
Quote from: MrH on February 24, 2023, 11:24:20 AM
You guys are talking about bogeymen....that your hypothetical bogeymen believe in :lol:
?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories. The second gen Prius was one of the best cars ever built, with sky high build quality and the lowest cost of ownership of any car on sale at the time. But everybody just made fun of its fans and derided the cars as tools of virtue signaling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 11:44:10 AM
?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories.
Rush has been dead for a few years now :wtf: Where are you actually finding and talking with these conservatives?
They're mocking the virtue signaling and elitism culture, not the car itself.
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 11:44:10 AM
?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories. The second gen Prius was one of the best cars ever built, with sky high build quality and the lowest cost of ownership of any car on sale at the time. But everybody just made fun of its fans and derided the cars as tools of virtue signaling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0
First gen Insight sits angrily in the corner...
Quote from: MrH on February 24, 2023, 11:58:02 AM
Rush has been dead for a few years now :wtf: Where are you actually finding and talking with these conservatives?
I bought my Volt in 2013. The same morons that called it an "Obama car" and disparaged it then, are the same folks in every EV post on FB or forums saying that "EVs are the devil" and "PHEVs are where it's at." Just because YOU aren't paying attention and don't see them doesn't mean they aren't doing it. I've been on the receiving end of it for a decade already.
So the answer is facebook groups?
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 11:44:10 AM
?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories. The second gen Prius was one of the best cars ever built, with sky high build quality and the lowest cost of ownership of any car on sale at the time. But everybody just made fun of its fans and derided the cars as tools of virtue signaling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0
That was such a good episode. Thaaankks!
Quote from: MrH on February 24, 2023, 11:58:02 AM
Rush has been dead for a few years now :wtf: Where are you actually finding and talking with these conservatives?
That's the era they are talking about, doesn't matter if he's dead now.
I had a Gen 3 Prius at one stage. Bought it used. It needed some love: main issue issue oddly enough was that the cabin air filter was completely clogged. But it turned out to be BY FAR the best commuter vehicle I've ever had. Perfect for suburbs-to-city & back driving.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 24, 2023, 07:01:05 AM
Exactly. The Volt was an excellent car, but the right wing freaked out and called it an "Obama car" (even though development was started in 2006) and the oil companies slagged it every chance they got in the media. And now those same people are crying that a PHEV like that would be the ideal car and EVs are the new bogeyman.
The Volt was an excellent car, but nobody bought it because it was a Chevy (just as nobody bought the first gen Ford Fusion hybrid (which was just as good as the Toyota hybrids since it used the same hybrid tech)), not because of some sort of smear campaign.
To an extent the same happened to the Bolt. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market, was ~20% less expensive, was vastly better built and was a match in range (to the base Model 3) yet at best sold only in token amounts. It's done better since and otherwise thus far has shirked the Volt curse, but still, if WtP bought on quality and value, the Bolt would be selling 10x that of the Model 3. But we don't because the whole hybrid/EV/PHEV/whatever is emotional and social, not factual, for most buyers.
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 11:18:42 AM
If you got a new Prius Prime and commuted 20 miles roundtrip for the life of the car, you would basically never burn any gas. The fuel bill would disappear. Charging 12kWh is a dollar where I live.
You would only burn ~0.3 gallons in that trip in a normal Prius. So basically a zero net gain.
I agree that compared to the vanilla Prius the economic case is weaker, but a breakeven point does exist. The cost per mile of the Prius hybrid is 7.4 cents (@ $4.50/gal). The cost per mile of the '23 Prius Prime is 4.9 cents (@ $0.13/kWh - almost the same as gas!). The marginal difference given these assumptions is 2.5c/gal / 40% reduced energy costs. Assuming that the Prime is being driven on battery as much as possible, the breakeven for a +$2k premium is 80k miles. At 3k, it's 120k miles. Of course the picture gets better if gas costs more.
Even if the breakeven point isn't fully realized, the owners will enjoy a big boost in refinement, quietness, and performance thanks to the beefy electric drivetrain, available at a pretty modest price premium. People shell out more money for lesser performance modifications on their cars all the time.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2023, 04:00:13 PM
The Volt was an excellent car, but nobody bought it because it was a Chevy (just as nobody bought the first gen Ford Fusion hybrid (which was just as good as the Toyota hybrids since it used the same hybrid tech)), not because of some sort of smear campaign.
To an extent the same happened to the Bolt. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market, was ~20% less expensive, was vastly better built and was a match in range (to the base Model 3) yet at best sold only in token amounts. It's done better since and otherwise thus far has shirked the Volt curse, but still, if WtP bought on quality and value, the Bolt would be selling 10x that of the Model 3. But we don't because the whole hybrid/EV/PHEV/whatever is emotional and social, not factual, for most buyers.
Actually every Bolt is spoken for. The waiting list for it, especially the Bolt EUV, is quite long. The waitlist is about two to three months. I think it's just that Chevrolet can't produce their car in the same quantities that Tesla can.
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 06:03:46 PM
Actually every Bolt is spoken for. The waiting list for it, especially the Bolt EUV, is quite long. The waitlist is about two to three months. I think it's just that Chevrolet can't produce their car in the same quantities that Tesla can.
They "Could" build many more electric cars- but they (and other manufacturers) are putting effort into the biggest profit makers.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 24, 2023, 06:44:42 PM
They "Could" build many more electric cars- but they (and other manufacturers) are putting effort into the biggest profit makers.
Also I think they were prioritizing Ultium batteries and upcoming vehicles instead of the Bolt, which will be dead after ~2025. They haven't increased production capacity much.
I think they want to prioritize the bigger higher margin models to fund rolling out the mid-market everyman models. They've got to get the margins.
Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2023, 06:03:46 PM
Actually every Bolt is spoken for. The waiting list for it, especially the Bolt EUV, is quite long. The waitlist is about two to three months. I think it's just that Chevrolet can't produce their car in the same quantities that Tesla can.
Now, only some 6 years later, but when the Bolt debuted it was less than a dead cat bounce as WtP were awaiting the years-delayed Model 3 (which debuted ~6 months after the Bolt).
I think it's more about the EUV hitting all the high notes for American tastes.