Tesla

[AutobahnSHO]

Same. Or if I'm paying in cash...kinda have to stay parked at the pump until you pay.

This is perfectly fine of course.

[AutobahnSHO]

Not surprised, not alarmed - sounds like a very pro hack which most groups couldn't do easily.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hackers-win-model-3-pwn2own-2023/amp/

[565]

Man Tesla dropped prices even more. 3k cheaper than we bought it for.

If you qualify for tax rebates in CT, you get a 7.5k federal and 2.25k state rebate.  It means a model Y long range is like 40k.

Honestly that's like a no brainer for 40k.  It's a highly usable, fun to drive ( it really is), super safe (top safety pick plus), SUV that traps 114 mph in the quarter mile, all for base luxury SUV prices.  With the distances I drive, I save 250 to 300 dollars a month on gas too.
Tesla is absolutely going after market share at the cost of profit.

I've put 5.5k miles in less than 3 months on the Model Y and I've been thoroughly impressed.  I can post a much longer essay about how I ended up getting one and what I think of it.  But long story short, at current prices and if you qualify for the tax rebates, a model Y long range is an absolute win.

[Laconian]

Model 3 Performance for 38k?!

[565]

Model 3 Performance for 38k?!

Honestly for performance bang for the buck in a practical car, these Teslas can't be beat.  I'm still on the list for a GR Corolla at MSRP but the car is probably going to show up at this rate in 2 to 5 years if at all.  If you want one now be prepared to pay 10 to 25k over sticker. Civic Type R, same thing.  M3P will run near BMW M3 numbers for now half the price.

Not to mention a model S plaid will run 150+mph traps for 105k now.  Soon we will be in the realm of a 150mph trapping 9 second car that seats 5 people for 5 figures.

[GoCougs]

Man Tesla dropped prices even more. 3k cheaper than we bought it for.

If you qualify for tax rebates in CT, you get a 7.5k federal and 2.25k state rebate.  It means a model Y long range is like 40k.

Honestly that's like a no brainer for 40k.  It's a highly usable, fun to drive ( it really is), super safe (top safety pick plus), SUV that traps 114 mph in the quarter mile, all for base luxury SUV prices.  With the distances I drive, I save 250 to 300 dollars a month on gas too.
Tesla is absolutely going after market share at the cost of profit.

I've put 5.5k miles in less than 3 months on the Model Y and I've been thoroughly impressed.  I can post a much longer essay about how I ended up getting one and what I think of it.  But long story short, at current prices and if you qualify for the tax rebates, a model Y long range is an absolute win.

I'm guessing you're culling stats from C&D: https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y

12.7 s @ 114 mph is way out of whack. My hunch is that it's actually 12.7 s @ 104 mph, not 114 mph (note the Performance model is shown as 12.1 s @ 113 mph) as foretold by a typical 1/4 mile hp calculator (https://robrobinette.com/et.htm):

LR: 4,560 lbs and 384 hp = 104 mph trap
P: 4,609 lbs and 480 hp = 112 mph trap

And for S&Gs:
GoCougs' SQ5: 4,650 lbs and 470 hp (calculated) = 110 mph trap (actual)

[afty]

Motor Trend tested a Model Y LR that ran the quarter in 12.4s @ 115 mph: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-vs-tesla-model-y-electric-suv-comparison-test-review/

[565]

I'm guessing you're culling stats from C&D: https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y

12.7 s @ 114 mph is way out of whack. My hunch is that it's actually 12.7 s @ 104 mph, not 114 mph (note the Performance model is shown as 12.1 s @ 113 mph) as foretold by a typical 1/4 mile hp calculator (https://robrobinette.com/et.htm):

LR: 4,560 lbs and 384 hp = 104 mph trap
P: 4,609 lbs and 480 hp = 112 mph trap

And for S&Gs:
GoCougs' SQ5: 4,650 lbs and 470 hp (calculated) = 110 mph trap (actual)

Yeah the way that Tesla does it is that they software gimp the long range versions to 60mph so the advertised 0 to 60 times are somewhat accurate.  The rated HP numbers probably reflect the power allowed to 60mph.  Then after 60mph they just don't care and the performance and long range models run the same or the long range pulls a bit due to lighter wheels and tires.  Many Model Ys have the same exact motors and battery between the long range and performance models, including my model Y which has a 3d3 front motor and 4D1 rear motor (new hairpin motor meant for the performance model).  In the world of electric cars it's probably cheaper to make the same power train for each and then use software to differentiate the two.

Anyway here is a video that shows how a model 3 LR and performance stack up to each other (same motors as the Y in most markets)

https://youtu.be/htGXA4McmGU

The performance only pulls on the long range to 60mph or so and then after that the long range will start to walk away from the performance.  Same exact powertrain, lighter wheels.

Tesla does sell an acceleration boost upgrade for the long range that partially removes the software gimp but still keeps the performance model ahead to 60.

In this test they ran a 12.77 et at 114.35mph  with the long range model without the acceleration boost.  With the acceleration boost they dropped the 0 to 60 times and the ET, but the trap speed doesn't improve.

https://www.cars.com/articles/tesla-model-y-vs-genesis-gv60-performance-which-is-faster-458289/

[Morris Minor]

Yeah the way that Tesla does it is that they software gimp the long range versions to 60mph so the advertised 0 to 60 times are somewhat accurate.  The rated HP numbers probably reflect the power allowed to 60mph.  Then after 60mph they just don't care and the performance and long range models run the same or the long range pulls a bit due to lighter wheels and tires.  Many Model Ys have the same exact motors and battery between the long range and performance models, including my model Y which has a 3d3 front motor and 4D1 rear motor (new hairpin motor meant for the performance model).  In the world of electric cars it's probably cheaper to make the same power train for each and then use software to differentiate the two.

The performance only pulls on the long range to 60mph or so and then after that the long range will start to walk away from the performance.  Same exact powertrain, lighter wheels.

Tesla does sell an acceleration boost upgrade for the long range that partially removes the software gimp but still keeps the performance model ahead to 60.

In this test they ran a 12.77 et at 114.35mph  with the long range model without the acceleration boost.  With the acceleration boost they dropped the 0 to 60 times and the ET, but the trap speed doesn't improve.

https://www.cars.com/articles/tesla-model-y-vs-genesis-gv60-performance-which-is-faster-458289/

The Performance version's fragile rubber band tire/wheel combo are a negative factor for me. They look cool, but on the roads around here...

[Morris Minor]

Tesla stock is taking another beating. In one opinion camp the view is the party line on price cuts, i.e. it's worth absorbing the hit on margins to keep people coming in against the headwind of high interest rates & go for volume growth & a big loyalty base. The other camp points to weak demand, hubris, & a gloomy outlook as they begin to wilt in the face of inevitable competition coming on line from VW/Ford/GM/Toyota/Stellantis.

Tesla Earnings Dented by Price Cuts
Several rounds of reductions in the first months of the year weighed on Tesla's first-quarter results.

Tesla Inc. TSLA -2.02%decrease; red down pointing triangle felt the pain of a recent wave of price cuts, as a reduction in the average price of its cars contributed to a 24% decline in first-quarter profit.

Elon Musk's electric-vehicle maker has lowered prices for models in the U.S. by between 14% and 25% this year as it contends with weaker demand, higher interest rates and burgeoning competition. The latest round of reductions came on the eve of earnings.

"We've taken a view that pushing for higher volumes and a larger fleet is the right choice here versus a lower volume and higher margin," Mr. Musk, Tesla's chief executive, said Wednesday on an earnings call, adding that he expects to be able to harvest additional software revenue down the line.

More: https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-tsla-q1-earnings-report-2023-6b441d30

[SJ_GTI]

"We've taken a view that pushing for higher volumes and a larger fleet is the right choice here versus a lower volume and higher margin," Mr. Musk, Tesla's chief executive, said Wednesday on an earnings call...

Sound a lot like what the domestics tried in the 80's/90's when the Japanese (and then Korean) companies were coming into the US market. 

[MrH]

Model 3 Performance for 38k?!

Where are you getting that number?  Right now, it's $53k - $7500 credit, so $45,500 + another grand or two if you want a color

[MrH]

The entire narrative and financials are built on never ending demand.  They're overcapacitized and the only way to continue to grow is to slash prices over and over.

We all knew this was coming eventually, but even I didn't think Q2 would be this bad.  Without the hypergrowth narrative, it's just another car company, trading at a 7x multiple, not 70x.

[r0tor]

Yeah the way that Tesla does it is that they software gimp the long range versions to 60mph so the advertised 0 to 60 times are somewhat accurate.  The rated HP numbers probably reflect the power allowed to 60mph.  Then after 60mph they just don't care and the performance and long range models run the same or the long range pulls a bit due to lighter wheels and tires.  Many Model Ys have the same exact motors and battery between the long range and performance models, including my model Y which has a 3d3 front motor and 4D1 rear motor (new hairpin motor meant for the performance model).  In the world of electric cars it's probably cheaper to make the same power train for each and then use software to differentiate the two.

Anyway here is a video that shows how a model 3 LR and performance stack up to each other (same motors as the Y in most markets)

https://youtu.be/htGXA4McmGU

The performance only pulls on the long range to 60mph or so and then after that the long range will start to walk away from the performance.  Same exact powertrain, lighter wheels.

Tesla does sell an acceleration boost upgrade for the long range that partially removes the software gimp but still keeps the performance model ahead to 60.

In this test they ran a 12.77 et at 114.35mph  with the long range model without the acceleration boost.  With the acceleration boost they dropped the 0 to 60 times and the ET, but the trap speed doesn't improve.

https://www.cars.com/articles/tesla-model-y-vs-genesis-gv60-performance-which-is-faster-458289/

It literally comes down to battery management.  There isn't much negatives to installing a larger than needed electric motor in these cars.  But to use that power you need to have the battery capacity and thermal performance in check.  Once the thermals go over their threshold power coming out of the battery needs to be cut.

I believe the only EV capable of doing a single lap on a track without power cut has been the Porsche Taycan.

Maserati is guilty of this in the new Folgore.  They first advertised 1,000 hp as that's what the motors are rated... Then admit the battery can only support 800hp... Then admit that's only for a few seconds....

[SJ_GTI]

Speaking of Tesla, they did also say that they expect to start delivering Cybertrucks by the end of Q3. Production/Deliveries will start slow but ramp up quickly like the Model 3 and Model Y supposedly. It will be interesting to see if they are right. It would be interesting to see if Tesla, who got beat to the punch by Ford, Rivian, and GM ends up ramping up faster than all three (combined?).

I think the "secret" to Tesla's success so far is that they are the only company that keeps going all in on EV's. Everyone else seems to be tiptoeing their way into EV's, presumably because they are too risk averse. In an industry where fixed (and barrier to entry) costs are significant, being able to have big volumes can be a huge cost (and profit) advantage.

[MrH]

You're right.  Their competitive advantage is risk tolerance.  This isn't a good thing for consumers.

It's easier when you don't have perform validation, meaningful quality standards, or change control processes.

[Morris Minor]

Speaking of Tesla, they did also say that they expect to start delivering Cybertrucks by the end of Q3. Production/Deliveries will start slow but ramp up quickly like the Model 3 and Model Y supposedly. It will be interesting to see if they are right. It would be interesting to see if Tesla, who got beat to the punch by Ford, Rivian, and GM ends up ramping up faster than all three (combined?).

I think the "secret" to Tesla's success so far is that they are the only company that keeps going all in on EV's. Everyone else seems to be tiptoeing their way into EV's, presumably because they are too risk averse. In an industry where fixed (and barrier to entry) costs are significant, being able to have big volumes can be a huge cost (and profit) advantage.

I think they have a bit of a problem financing the switch to EVs out of softening demand for their legacy products. Jim Farley put this issue front & center by splitting Ford into their "Blue & "Model e" divisions.
I'd also argue that another "secret" to Tesla's success is that they rolled the dice early & got a 10-year jump on everyone else.

[Laconian]

Tesla's going to have their own legacy problem on their hands. Their models are getting long in the tooth and AFAIK they only seem to be interested in adding new models and not replacing existing ones.

[GoCougs]

Yeah the way that Tesla does it is that they software gimp the long range versions to 60mph so the advertised 0 to 60 times are somewhat accurate.  The rated HP numbers probably reflect the power allowed to 60mph.  Then after 60mph they just don't care and the performance and long range models run the same or the long range pulls a bit due to lighter wheels and tires.  Many Model Ys have the same exact motors and battery between the long range and performance models, including my model Y which has a 3d3 front motor and 4D1 rear motor (new hairpin motor meant for the performance model).  In the world of electric cars it's probably cheaper to make the same power train for each and then use software to differentiate the two.

Anyway here is a video that shows how a model 3 LR and performance stack up to each other (same motors as the Y in most markets)

https://youtu.be/htGXA4McmGU

The performance only pulls on the long range to 60mph or so and then after that the long range will start to walk away from the performance.  Same exact powertrain, lighter wheels.

Tesla does sell an acceleration boost upgrade for the long range that partially removes the software gimp but still keeps the performance model ahead to 60.

In this test they ran a 12.77 et at 114.35mph  with the long range model without the acceleration boost.  With the acceleration boost they dropped the 0 to 60 times and the ET, but the trap speed doesn't improve.

https://www.cars.com/articles/tesla-model-y-vs-genesis-gv60-performance-which-is-faster-458289/

Has it been confirmed that the entire powertrain is the same between the LR and P, especially the expensive stuff like power electronics (and to also include anything from power cabling to temp management)? If so, that seems a colossally inefficient pricing strategy to give the volume model the same goods yet charge less, especially at this scale.

[Morris Minor]

"Rein." Oh dear Jennifer. 

[Laconian]

Is this a Forbes Sites page? Forbes basically whored out their brand and is now basically a Wordpress free for all.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Oh deer?

[Morris Minor]

Is this a Forbes Sites page? Forbes basically whored out their brand and is now basically a Wordpress free for all.

Apple News feed Business Insider item. 
Jennifer is a junior reporter (she/her.)

[565]

Has it been confirmed that the entire powertrain is the same between the LR and P, especially the expensive stuff like power electronics (and to also include anything from power cabling to temp management)? If so, that seems a colossally inefficient pricing strategy to give the volume model the same goods yet charge less, especially at this scale.

The only known hardware difference is that certain model Ys used to carry a rear motor that is supposedly lower output than the performance motor.  However which the recent switch to hairpin winding motors, they've all carried the performance version of the hairpin motor (4D1 motor).  Our model Y even carries an F in the 8th digit of the VIN which designates it as a performance model even though it's a long range model

Tesla has realized that it's probably more cost effective to standardize the model Y to streamline production. Also the performance doesn't really cost that much more at all than the long range version.  There is only something like 3k in price difference.  If you consider the more expensive 21 inch wheels, the wider tires, and the carbon fiber spoiler, they aren't very different in price. The braking hardware is now the same (performance versions once used thicker rotors and different rear calipers, but no longer). The choice is more about do you want the sportier handling and look of the performance at the cost of comfort and range. 

[565]

Model Y long range impressions after 5500 miles.

Overall build quality is much better than expected given what I heard a about Tesla.  No real issues with the car we got.  When I was picking up the car I saw one customer literally going over their car with a fine toothed comb and nitpicking every tiny thing. I think that the reputation of bad quality becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The buying experience was super easy.  Way easier than traditional dealers.  The ap updates you on the expected arrival of the car.  I ordered on Jan 14th and the car arrived at the delivery center Jan 18th.

The driving experience is a lot better than the expected.  Tesla softened the ride on the Model Y now and it rides softer than the Blackwing or X3M or Z06. Granted those are all performance cars but the Tesla's ride is very good. The instant acceleration is amazing.  It really is something that needs to be experienced.  You put your foot down and there is absolutely no delay to the car rocketing forward.  None of our ICE cars come close to matching it.  When I first drove the Tesla home, I was testing out the acceleration and I actually got nauseous.  None of our other cars managed to make me nauseous before with acceleration. Going back to driving the ICE cars you have to recalibrate how much room you need to overtake a left lane camper.  Ultimately the X3M and Blackwing can accelerate faster but in terms of putting your foot down and passing, the Tesla blows them away.

Handling is... interesting.  The steering is insanely quick, like wtf were they thinking quick. There is actually good feedback from the wheel.  The steering wheel is go kart small.  You can feel the low center of gravity when you corner.  However at higher speeds and closer to the limit, you can tell Tesla engineers haven't gotten the suspension tuning as good as GM or BMW, granted GM's magnetic ride handling tuning is probably the best in the business.  The Tesla feels like a car that was built by enthusiastic novices that think super sharp steering and flat cornering are all that are needed for a good handling car.  It's actually a hoot to drive, but not polished closer to the limit.

Wind noise is better than the X3M, worse than the Blackwing (which is a cocoon of wind noise silence).  Squeaks and rattles are surprisingly better than either ICE car.  The X3m has 2x the miles but the Blackwing as the same miles as the Tesla.

The user interface with 1 screen took a while to get used to but now that I did, it's fine.  The Nav system is impressive and more accurate than Waze for ETA, however I still turn on waze for cops. It's a shame there is no 360 camera. Visibility out the front is wonderful and out the back it's terrible.  This car would benefit from a rear view camera mirror.

One pedal driving was easy to get used to and I almost never touch the brakes except for emergencies.

Autopilot is actually great.  I can only compare it to the system in the BMW and my dad's Tundra.  The system in the BMW basically drives like an asshole.  I wonder if it was calibrated for the 4 cylinder and drives just too aggressively in the M version.  The Toyota system feels far too primitive and basically can't hold lanes if there is any significant turning involved.  The Tesla system is light-years ahead despite what reviews say.  It just functions far more naturally and smoothly than the BMW or Toyota system. I have not experienced any phantom braking, I have a 100+ mile round trip commute and use the system for 95% of the trip.  The only downside is that Tesla depends on a torque sensor rather than capacitive touch to sense for your hands on the wheel.  That said the BMW starts warning you if your hands are off the wheel for 2 seconds.  The Tesla lets you get away with 30 seconds to a minute of hands off the wheel.

I have a commuting set up that's pretty favorable for an EV, consistent long highway drive with free level 2 charging at work.  Also put a 14-50 charger at home that will charge 29 miles per hr.
 According to the app over 70% of my charging has been free. I've paid 142 dollars to go 5500+ miles.  According to the app gas would have cost 940 dollars over the same period.

If I continue to exclusively drive the Tesla I will save something like 5 to 6k in gas a year.  However now that the weather is better I've gone back to driving the Blackwing daily.  Reasons are that I want all the cars to roughly gain 12k miles a year so that Tesla doesn't run out of warranty in 1.5 years due to high mileage and the Blackwing doesn't run out of warranty with only 6k miles on it. Plus life is short so it would be a shame not to drive the Blackwing.

The usability of this thing is just insane. It's the same footprint as the X3 but the passenger room and cargo room is much better.  There is a large storage compartment under the trunk floor as there isn't an exhaust system.  I love the frunk because it's separately locked and fully enclosed by plastic so when my wife gets some messy soup from the in laws I put it in there and don't worry about it spilling into the cabin.

Interior is plain but feels well built and solid. 

I truthfully was a Tesla skeptic before and only got this car because of the huge price cut and the fact I could get it immediately when every other car  I was thinking about had a wait time. I needed a winter vehicle asap because the g37 transmission was toast.  The Model Y has been such a great daily commuter that I would have been perfectly happy with it as an only car.  I was pleasantly surprised by how much I down right enjoy this car.
It is a screaming deal now for the price. I'm impressed enough by the Y that I placed an order for the Cyber Truck.  I'm like number 5 million in line probably so I'll see it in 2035, probably right after the GR Corolla shows up.

[Morris Minor]

Teslas don't go for adding or removing physical bits depending on trim/options/capabilities ordered. Fewer manufacturing permutations to deal with.

[565]

Teslas don't go for adding or removing physical bits depending on trim/options/capabilities ordered. Fewer manufacturing permutations to deal with.

Exactly.  Every Tesla comes with the full self driving computer whether you buy the full self driving feature or not.

It's available to purchase as a 1 time option or a montly subscription.

Acceleration boost to unlock more get up and go is a 1 time 2000 dollar software update.

Other car manufacturers are moving to the same idea.

BMW already has remote start and integrated dashcam as a subscription or 1 time  software activation.  Every car already comes with the hardware installed but want your money to activate it.

Toyota does similar stuff with their remote start. 

BMW for a while wanted heated seats and other features to be subscription based. 

In the future this kind of thing may be the norm rather than the exception.

[CaminoRacer]

Every time they drop the price I'm tempted to buy one, but other than charging speed/network there's no real advantage over our Bolt so it would be a waste of money. I think it's the ease of ordering online that's tempting and appealing. Other automakers are really disadvantaged by the dealership laws, at least for the younger generations that just want 1-click ordering from Amazon for everything

[GoCougs]

The only known hardware difference is that certain model Ys used to carry a rear motor that is supposedly lower output than the performance motor.  However which the recent switch to hairpin winding motors, they've all carried the performance version of the hairpin motor (4D1 motor).  Our model Y even carries an F in the 8th digit of the VIN which designates it as a performance model even though it's a long range model

Tesla has realized that it's probably more cost effective to standardize the model Y to streamline production. Also the performance doesn't really cost that much more at all than the long range version.  There is only something like 3k in price difference.  If you consider the more expensive 21 inch wheels, the wider tires, and the carbon fiber spoiler, they aren't very different in price. The braking hardware is now the same (performance versions once used thicker rotors and different rear calipers, but no longer). The choice is more about do you want the sportier handling and look of the performance at the cost of comfort and range. 

If "streamlining" was the goal why doesn't Tesla just follow the X/S Plaid strategy - explicitly the same powertrain and firmware, leaving the pricing differential to the fiddly bits such as wheels/tires?

The exact opposite happened however - there are three sets of firmware to develop, validate, document and maintain (LR, LR+Boost, P) plus Boost does not bring parity in acceleration. If Boost brought parity, then you'd have a point.

Tesla acted against "streamlining" WRT firmware and wouldn't do so casually, which to me is a virtual guarantee that there are not-easily-seen hardware differences between the LR and P.

[565]

If "streamlining" was the goal why doesn't Tesla just follow the X/S Plaid strategy - explicitly the same powertrain and firmware, leaving the pricing differential to the fiddly bits such as wheels/tires?

The exact opposite happened however - there are three sets of firmware to develop, validate, document and maintain (LR, LR+Boost, P) plus Boost does not bring parity in acceleration. If Boost brought parity, then you'd have a point.

Tesla acted against "streamlining" WRT firmware and wouldn't do so casually, which to me is a virtual guarantee that there are not-easily-seen hardware differences between the LR and P.

Not sure what you mean by the plaid strategy as the plaid has 3 motors to the model S long range's 2 motors. Huge hardware difference there.

If you mean the plaid comes with a choice of wheels, the model Y also comes with a choice of wheels as well.  The plaid doesn't have any suspension choices and the carbon brakes are a dealer add on that hasn't materialized yet.

Tesla doesn't sell a software upgrade to bring LR to performance levels for 2 reasons.  One is that for a while there was a motor difference between the cars, just like there was a brake difference, but Tesla has been consistently eliminating those to cut costs.  Second is to maintain demand for the performance.  That difference in acceleration is only evident at lower speeds as repeated test have shown that the performance model will not trap higher than the long range model and boost doesn't change that trap speed either. It would not make sense to have different hardware when the  the cars operate identically much of the time.

Previously for the Model 3 tesla did have a strategy of selling a stealth performance model which didn't have the larger wheels and lowered suspension compared to the PUP version that did at the cost of range.  Acceleration was the same between the two.

At that time Tesla would software upgrade the long range to the stealth performance at the delivery centers if they didn't have enough stock as the long range and stealth performance cars were identical except for software as advertised by Tesla.

Anyway unless you work for Tesla or have some kind of inside information, no tear down or company info have ever found or claimed any difference between the two powertrains besides software and the possibility of a designated performance or long range motor. Tesla is pretty transparent about technical specs of each motor and battery pack it uses around the world.   With the newest batch of production that has switched to hairpin motors, every hairpin motored Tesla Y built for the US has carried the 4D1 motor.