Extra range on demand - swappable packs? Rental credits?

[Laconian]

Mazda's defense of the weeny battery packs in the MX-30 is that most Americans aren't actually going to need it in practice. It might be technically correct but buyers are going to want a "break glass" solution to deal with the occasional long distance trip without the lil' pack holding them back.

Has there been any investigation about the feasibility of battery swaps for short term range extension rentals? Everything I've found has been about swapping the car's primary pack, but it seems to me like it could be pretty revolutionary to have a system that could be upgraded to suit the driver's needs on a temporary or a permanent basis. That way the car could be "right sized" to 98% of its driving, with less spent on batteries, less energy used to haul around inert batteries, and fewer resources tied up in those batteries.

Another solution could be to give buyers several days' worth of credits for ICE rentals.

[cawimmer430]

IIRC it was a firm in Israel which proved that the swappable battery concept would fail and be an ecological disaster. If I remember correctly they stated that EV "gas stations" would need heavy lifting equipment to swap batteries in EVs. That was their first point.

Their second point was that this would more or less force all carmakers to use a similar platform and similar batteries that are interchangeable. Won't happen (charging stations - at least here - are all different to use a real hassle, I see my GF going insane, especially when she can't charge at some stations because.... I have no idea...).

Third, and this is the most important factor. Millions of spare swappable batteries would require an insane amount of rare earths AND they would all become useless/outdated overnight if there is a major breakthrough in battery technology.

This is why I believe in a mix future: ICE running on eFuels (at least the German government  is looking into it), Hydrogen for Fuel Cell cars and of course the BEV. We still need the internal combustion engine - it has so many advantages also in terms of convenience. They've become so efficient it's amazing. I mean if I can achieve 6.7 L / 100 km in mixed driving including city traffic, speeding on the Autobahn... with an engine that is around 30% "efficient".... That's pretty darn amazing.

I've been listening to a lot of podcasts from chemists and engineers here on the topic of eFuels. Ideally they (and Hydrogen) should be produced in countries which have a lot of "renewable energy" such as those in the hot North African desert or windy Chile, Peru and Argentina where there essentially is 99% of that "free energy" available throughout the year. Countries like Morocco with their many high-tech solar parks could become wealthy exporters of eFuels and Hydrogen. Best of all, the engineers were explaining that eFuel from Morocco would cost us about 1.20 Euro at the pumps in Germany, which was pretty much the price of fuel here before we got raped with a carbon tax (fuel price today is 1.80 Euros for gasoline E5).



Check this out by the way...

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/02/the-hongqi-e202-ev-concept-will-spawn-a-production-model-with-battery-swap-tech/

[ChrisV]

IIRC it was a firm in Israel which proved that the swappable battery concept would fail and be an ecological disaster. If I remember correctly they stated that EV "gas stations" would need heavy lifting equipment to swap batteries in EVs. That was their first point.

Their second point was that this would more or less force all carmakers to use a similar platform and similar batteries that are interchangeable. Won't happen (charging stations - at least here - are all different to use a real hassle, I see my GF going insane, especially when she can't charge at some stations because.... I have no idea...).

Third, and this is the most important factor. Millions of spare swappable batteries would require an insane amount of rare earths AND they would all become useless/outdated overnight if there is a major breakthrough in battery technology.

the last point is the kicker. You'd have to have millions of additional batteries so that ther were enough charged and ready to go in every direction you might travel.

Also you may get an older battery that has bad cells and that's what youre driving on the other 99% of the time that you aren't taking road trips.

But a part of that is actually incorrect. Batteries don't use rare earth metals. Magnets do in the electric motors (just like they are used in the speakers and alternators in gas cars). But other than that there are no rare earth metals in EVs. Rare earth metals are a set of 15 Lanthinides plus Scandium and Yttrium that have a lot of high tech uses (from cell phones to hard drives, to flat screen TVs), but very little in EVs or regular gas cars. Lithium is not rare (nor is it a rare earth metal). And actually rare earth metals are not rare, either, the "rare" comes from the fact that for metals they have some rare properties.

If you're talking Cobalt in EV batteries, that's problematic as Cobalt is mines with child slave labor in the Congo. SO EVs are using less and less of it (with Tesla now using none). But you know what uses more Cobalt than EVs? Refining gasoline to get the sulfur out. So if you're worried about Cobalt use, and child labor in the Congo, stop driving gasoline cars.

[GoCougs]

Tesla tried this, right? Elon's reason for canceling it was that it is much more expensive to design and manufacture the car so, and the swap itself was much more expensive than fast charging. Plus, you'd need rather expensive/extensive infrastructure in ubiquitous locations to house, charge and inventory myriad batteries safely,

[MrH]

Tesla tried this, right? Elon's reason for canceling it was that it is much more expensive to design and manufacture the car so, and the swap itself was much more expensive than fast charging. Plus, you'd need rather expensive/extensive infrastructure in ubiquitous locations to house, charge and inventory myriad batteries safely,

No.  Elon lied about being able to do it in order to cash in on government subsidies.  It never existed.

https://dailykanban.com/2015/06/23/tesla-battery-swap-carbs-bridge-to-nowhere/

[CaminoRacer]

I think the industry's general direction right now is the most feasible - 60-100 kwh battery packs that provide 250-350 miles of range, with 800v systems for 20 minute recharges.

Forklift battery changes suck and take too long in warehouses, judging from that it wouldn't save much if any time compared to a 350 kw charger.

[GoCougs]

No.  Elon lied about being able to do it in order to cash in on government subsidies.  It never existed.

https://dailykanban.com/2015/06/23/tesla-battery-swap-carbs-bridge-to-nowhere/

"Tried" .

But he was correct - quick battery swap is much too expensive for any sort of macro application (i.e., same ol', some ol' for all aspects of macro EV adoption).

[Morris Minor]

PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.

[Morris Minor]

PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.

So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.

[AutobahnSHO]

PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.

So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.

BRILLIANT

[Eye of the Tiger]

The Koenigsegg Regera already had the PHEV thing figured out. 1700 HP 

[Soup DeVille]

PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.

So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.

Or just a 400 lb add in battery pack.

[r0tor]

The rather basic hybrid is and probably has always been the answer.  50mpg+ put them in spitting distance of actual fuel efficiency of EVs accounting for the grid makeup, have minimal resource usage, minimal weigh gain, minimal downsides.

We could halve fuel usage without any struggles fairly quickly.

[GoCougs]

Meh, plug-in hybrids have been around a long time but nobody really bought them.

[Laconian]

I think PHEVs have crossed a certain range threshold that makes them super compelling. (i.e. they just caught up to the old Volt ) A LFP battery pack large enough to do 60mi real world miles per "fill" would be amazing. You could drain it deeply every day, charge it at night, and it would still outlast the rest of the car. Your average American would barely need to burn any gas.

[Laconian]

PHEVs are the current break glass solution. You do 95% of your driving on the battery - but carry around a 350-lb gas engine for the annual vacation to Walley World.

So maybe we could rent four bangers when needed. Drop them in the frunk.

Nope. Gas generators in or around living spaces are suicide.

[ChrisV]

Meh, plug-in hybrids have been around a long time but nobody really bought them.

Exactly. The Volt was an excellent car, but the right wing freaked out and called it an "Obama car" (even though development was started in 2006) and the oil companies slagged it every chance they got in the media. And now those same people are crying that a PHEV like that would be the ideal car and EVs are the new bogeyman.

[r0tor]

While I generally agree with the PHEV concept - Prius vs Prius prime... In exchange for more several thousand more dollars, several hundred pounds of weight, dealing with cords, and increased resource usage you can save a max of 0.8 gallons of gas per trip.

Does all that really make sense?

[CaminoRacer]

While I generally agree with the PHEV concept - Prius vs Prius prime... In exchange for more several thousand more dollars, several hundred pounds of weight, dealing with cords, and increased resource usage you can save a max of 0.8 gallons of gas per trip.

Does all that really make sense?

A good PHEV should act as 100% EV for your daily commute and only need the ICE for longer trips.

[r0tor]

A good PHEV should act as 100% EV for your daily commute and only need the ICE for longer trips.

In shear savings your spending what a max of $0.50 to recharge at over home for a trip vs $1.50 of gas per trip where you use the entire range .  For that $1 of saving you have a heavier car, stiffer suspension because if that, less storage space, and used 15x more material over the regular hybrid for the battery pack.

Eh...

[Laconian]

Exactly. The Volt was an excellent car, but the right wing freaked out and called it an "Obama car" (even though development was started in 2006) and the oil companies slagged it every chance they got in the media. And now those same people are crying that a PHEV like that would be the ideal car and EVs are the new bogeyman.

They knew they lost so they moved the goalposts. It's not being pro-PHEV either, it's about being contrarian.

[Laconian]

In shear savings your spending what a max of $0.50 to recharge at over home for a trip vs $1.50 of gas per trip where you use the entire range .  For that $1 of saving you have a heavier car, stiffer suspension because if that, less storage space, and used 15x more material over the regular hybrid for the battery pack.

Eh...

If you got a new Prius Prime and commuted 20 miles roundtrip for the life of the car, you would basically never burn any gas. The fuel bill would disappear. Charging 12kWh is a dollar where I live.

[MrH]

You guys are talking about bogeymen....that your hypothetical bogeymen believe in

[AutobahnSHO]

Co-worker had a Volt he raves about, except he said it always smelled like antifreeze. My bet is heater core issue?

[Soup DeVille]

On the other hand, a PHEV could be the choice in some cases between owning one car and owning two.

[Laconian]

You guys are talking about bogeymen....that your hypothetical bogeymen believe in

?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories. The second gen Prius was one of the best cars ever built, with sky high build quality and the lowest cost of ownership of any car on sale at the time. But everybody just made fun of its fans and derided the cars as tools of virtue signaling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0

[MrH]

?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories.

Rush has been dead for a few years now   Where are you actually finding and talking with these conservatives?

[MrH]

They're mocking the virtue signaling and elitism culture, not the car itself.

[Soup DeVille]

?! Hybrids, especially Priuses, were mocked endlessly by the Limbaugh set as effete liberullll fashion accessories. The second gen Prius was one of the best cars ever built, with sky high build quality and the lowest cost of ownership of any car on sale at the time. But everybody just made fun of its fans and derided the cars as tools of virtue signaling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0

First gen Insight sits angrily in the corner...

[ChrisV]

Rush has been dead for a few years now   Where are you actually finding and talking with these conservatives?

I bought my Volt in 2013. The same morons that called it an "Obama car" and disparaged it then, are the same folks in every EV post on FB or forums saying that "EVs are the devil" and "PHEVs are where it's at." Just because YOU aren't paying attention and don't see them doesn't mean they aren't doing it. I've been on the receiving end of it for a decade already.