Avoiding Police Bashing

Started by TurboDan, May 05, 2005, 12:28:34 AM

Catman

QuoteYou guys know me... I got a lot of respect for LEOs...


Come to think of it, I'm wondering if anyone misunderstood my motives in that one thread I started about my friend getting arrested...
I didn't misunderstand you, he's your friend so it's personal.  No big deal. :)  

TBR

#31
Quote
Quote
QuoteI really never had a problem with people questioning enforcement techniques, motives or government statistics, etc.  But, I never understood why the ignorant "all cops suck" threads were left alone when they really had no value whatsoever.
I never really understood that either, and I wrote numerous pms to The Bartender regarding some of Stutz' posts with him just saying that he would be violating Stutz' right to freedom of speech if he deleted the very offensive posts (they were offensive to anyone that put any value on life).


Well,  know that for every person that thinks badly of law enforcement there are at least 10 that think otherwise. I appreciate you!
I save most of my old PM's, and I don't recall "numerous" PM's on the point.  Plus, as many can attest, I'm the last person to bring up freedom of speech, because i'm the FIRST person to point out that you have NONE on a private web forum, other than at the hands of the owners (or their appointed deputies)

As for Stutz, you also have no idea what I said to him, or didn't say.  He was banned at one point, and might still be, I haven't checked, for some of his more flagrant comments.

I severly dislike reprimanding anyone in public, unless absolutely necessary  (or if they something REALLY stupid.  I will admit to a failing on that count), so assuming that nothing happened just because you don't think anything happened is wrong.

I do allow a little more leniency regarding comments towards LEO's, IF, I Repeat IF, the LEO in question has made some "out there" comments himself, ala Officer Bob.  Also, the matter of some forum member "blowing off steam" on a forum is often a GOOD thing, rather than letting the frustration buildup to the point that they could conceivable do something rash.  (There's a lot of road rage out there, and it ain't just psychotics who have the problems.)


The biggest problem I have overall with the issue is that my father was a MD State Police LT, with 25 years on the job.  When I see critical comments regarding cops, I often end up conflicted, and sometimes let a bit more get by than SOME people think I should,m just because I don't want to seem OVER SENSITIVE on the matter.  In short, I don't want a bunch of people crying about my deleting threads on the basis of my being the son of a trooper.

I've never been able to find someone wto be a mod in D & L who I felt was balancd enough on the issue.  Obviously, the cops are going to feel one way, and people like James Young and The Speed Criminal will feel differently.


That said, I do agree that James YOung manages to make his points eloquently in most cases, and stays mature and clean even if I disagree with him.
Some how I can only find the one I sent to you (I also reported the culprit post at least once) and not your reply.  I also sent the PM to both you and Troy, so either Troy was the one that made the reply regarding 1st ammendment rights and you just ignored it or you did indeed say that you couldn't do anything without violating Stutz' rights. Since you either just ignored me or told me that you wouldn't do anything I think it is pretty safe to say that I know what you did in that particular instance.

850CSi

Quote
QuoteYou guys know me... I got a lot of respect for LEOs...


Come to think of it, I'm wondering if anyone misunderstood my motives in that one thread I started about my friend getting arrested...
I didn't misunderstand you, he's your friend so it's personal.  No big deal. :)

The main purpose was really to question the whole thing, because I was confused over what rights someone would have in that particular case.

Like I said back there, I never knew off-duty cops had that kind of jurisdiction.
;)  

The Phantom

For the most part, if I saw a "cops suck" topic, I only left it open if there were people making an ass out of the dork who posted it.

Face it, I had a good time watching the members shooing the newbs off who were there just to start crap.   :praise:  
"We?re surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."

Catman

QuoteFor the most part, if I saw a "cops suck" topic, I only left it open if there were people making an ass out of the dork who posted it.

Face it, I had a good time watching the members shooing the newbs off who were there just to start crap.   :praise:
Yes, it could be entertaining. :lol:  

cozmik

This would be a nice change. I give them respect for doing what needs to be done. Even if sometimes they get the wrong guy (like me  :P ).


2006 BMW 330xi. 6 Speed, Sport Package. Gone are the RFTs! Toyo Proxes 4 in their place

James Young

Quote
QuoteTCSD and JY always fight because TCSD is always so black & white and that just gets JY going.
I think JY gets going because it bugs the hell out of The Nameless One.  It's become more of a sport than anything else.
Sport is certainly a part of it.  I feel guilty because it's like I'm picking on the retarded kid down the block and my parents taught me better than that.

But TCSD always manages to come up with some truly absurd statement or postion that requires a response.
Freedom is dangerous.  You can either accept the risks that come with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step.  Each step will be justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help make us all "safer."  Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more dangerous world that respects freedom more. ? The Speed Criminal

James Young

The Bartender writes:

I've never been able to find someone wto be a mod in D & L who I felt was balancd enough on the issue. Obviously, the cops are going to feel one way, and people like James Young and The Speed Criminal will feel differently.


That said, I do agree that James YOung manages to make his points eloquently in most cases, and stays mature and clean even if I disagree with him.



Thank, Bartender.  I would make a terribe mod because my attitude is that posters can write what they want and readers just deal with it.  I'd never ban or delete anybody.
Freedom is dangerous.  You can either accept the risks that come with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step.  Each step will be justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help make us all "safer."  Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more dangerous world that respects freedom more. ? The Speed Criminal

L. ed foote

QuoteThe Bartender writes:

I've never been able to find someone wto be a mod in D & L who I felt was balancd enough on the issue. Obviously, the cops are going to feel one way, and people like James Young and The Speed Criminal will feel differently.


That said, I do agree that James YOung manages to make his points eloquently in most cases, and stays mature and clean even if I disagree with him.



Thank, Bartender.  I would make a terribe mod because my attitude is that posters can write what they want and readers just deal with it.  I'd never ban or delete anybody.
I haven't had the chance to use my super mod powers for anything but good.  Moved a couple of topics, that's about it.

I wouldn't mind banning or deleting someone, I haven't had the opportunity yet  :lol:  
Member, Self Preservation Society

dazzleman

I definitely agree with the suggestion to avoid LEO bashing.

One of the more tiresome things is to read the classic "I got busted doing 90 in a 55.  I got a ticket.  This is bullshit.  Cops suck." thread that appeared fairly often in the C&D forums.

One thing I've always observed is that guys who take responsibility for their driving practices are almost always better drivers than those who do not.

Most of my friends are pretty typical younger guys -- they enjoy speed, like to be on the wrong side of the law in some minor way, and aren't particularly afraid to risk manageable penalties to indulge these tendencies.  Consequently, most of my friends have accumulated a respectable number of tickets in their years of driving, as have I.

Most of us tend to make light of it when we get a ticket.  We joke about it, shrug off the penalty, and return to our speeding ways.  And almost all my buddies who do this are excellent drivers.  They may be fast, but I feel totally safe riding with them.  And these guys never bash cops, no matter how many tickets they get.

I have one friend who is a bit of a cop basher.  He gets tickets, and blames the cops for the tickets he gets.  And guess what -- his driving sucks.  I don't think that's a coincidence.

I respect LEOs for the job that they do.  I'd never make it as an LEO for a few reasons, one of which is that I have terrible aim with a gun.  And I naturally respect those who do a needed job that I would find difficult to do.  Like any profession, there are some who abuse their power, but the vast majority of LEOs do not abuse their power in any significant way.  They may sometimes project a hard edge, but this is typical of those who work in male-dominated professions, and who are exposed frequently to the uglier side of life that the rest of us do our best to avoid.

There were some good LEOs on the C&D forum, guys like Catman, Pete Broccolo, CityPig and even Officer Bob (if he's a real cop), who I find very amusing.  I hope that LEOs will find a friendly atmosphere here.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Raza

Yup, cops where I live have real tough jobs that involve stopping no real crime and sitting in Chevy Tahoes all day long and occasionally setting up speed traps to harass teenagers.  

I've always been nice to LEOs on the forum though, however I do not hide my disdain for the police force in general.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote
Quote
QuoteHere's a dumb question...but what exactly does LEO stand for?  LEOfficer...lol...but what's the L and E?  Is it just Law Enforcement Officer?  :unsure:
That one got me for a while too,  it's Law Enforcement Officer I think
Yeah
No, it's French (since the first established modern police organization was in France), meaning le officier, French for "those whose ability to oppress the rights of citizens is unfettered".









Okay, I'm done.  Promise. :D  
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

City Pig

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.

mazda6er

#43
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D  
--Mark
Quote from: R-inge on March 26, 2007, 06:26:46 PMMy dad used to rent Samurai.  He loves them good.

Co-President of the I Fought the Tree and the Tree Won Club | Official Spokesman of the"I survived the Volvo S80 thread" club
I had myself fooled into needing you, did I fool you too? -- Barenaked Ladies | Say it ain't so...your drug is a heart breaker -- Weezer

Raza

Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
I know.  I'm done, I promise.  Other than individual accounts, I will not bash the police force on the whole.  However, I must say that generally, I've been respectful to the LEOs on the forums--even you, City Pig.  Although, I do rib Catman a bit much.

And I'm only 30 minutes north of Philadelphia, for the record.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

James Young

Quote
You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

And you might be surprised about how much abuse of authority exists out there.  These are not mutually exclusive conditions.  I have no doubt that the LEOs who post here write the truth and that they sincerely believe that the police serve a valuable purpose with honor.  I agree with that.  

However, that does not mean that there are not individual cops out there who abuse their authority and exist solely to man speed traps.  I can personally attest from experience and academic knowledge about a dozen such villages in Oklahoma where this is the case.  These cops do not investigate crimes, that duty falling to the county sheriff.  They run radar and they write tickets for the money.  I?m not even sure if they are credentialed yet they have the same authority as you, Catman, Themis and Pete.  We have to deal with these guys every day even if you don?t.

While I do not doubt the intent or the professionalism or the word of our LEO posters, a single encounter with ol? Bubba Fife destroys any goodwill you had managed to build up.  Just because you don?t do what many of the posts allege doesn?t mean it does not happen.

Freedom is dangerous.  You can either accept the risks that come with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step.  Each step will be justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help make us all "safer."  Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more dangerous world that respects freedom more. ? The Speed Criminal

Catman

#46
Unfortunately, there are small towns that probably fund their own existence.  JY, you're right about the public perception problem.  Traffic enforcement is often the thing that ruins relations if done wrong.  If done properly however, it can be a benefit to a community with unique issues.  Since I rarely do any highway work my perspective is almost soley to do with residential and secondary roadways.  On these type of roads excessive speed and distraction can often lead to horrific consequences.  The ability to stop is often not considered by ignorant drivers. While I don't necessarily believe all limits are fair I, like most LEO's, approach each situation with flexibility and descretion.  Often times speeding through residential areas saves no time at all.  Kind of like the guy who holeshots traffic light to traffic light.  No matter how slow you go you're always right behind him at every light.

TurboDan

Good post Catman.  

I remember a thread probably over a year ago on C&D where someone asked whether people respect city/local police or state police more.  The concensus seemed to be that state police often looked big and tough with the cowboy hats and there was a "forced" respect towards them, but peoples' experiences with them were almost solely negative (ie. getting a traffic ticket).  

While local police often didn't have as snazzy uniforms or looked as tough, people generally respected them more because their experiences wth local police was more positive.  Local police (at least in most areas) tend to be out in the community helping out rather than stuck in cars at the side of the highway slingin' tickets for the whole shift.  No matter what other duties state police fill (I really don't know personally) that's the public perception.

dazzleman

QuoteGood post Catman.  

I remember a thread probably over a year ago on C&D where someone asked whether people respect city/local police or state police more.  The concensus seemed to be that state police often looked big and tough with the cowboy hats and there was a "forced" respect towards them, but peoples' experiences with them were almost solely negative (ie. getting a traffic ticket).  

While local police often didn't have as snazzy uniforms or looked as tough, people generally respected them more because their experiences wth local police was more positive.  Local police (at least in most areas) tend to be out in the community helping out rather than stuck in cars at the side of the highway slingin' tickets for the whole shift.  No matter what other duties state police fill (I really don't know personally) that's the public perception.
TurboDan, I think you make a good point about local police versus state police, but I think it's largely a matter of perception.

People are more likely to know local police on a personal level, and to have received some positive help from local police.  For most people, their only contact with state police is receiving a ticket.

Still, state police do help people, especially in situations where they are stranded with broken down cars, mechanical problems, etc.  The nature of their job is different, but that doesn't mean that they are less helpful in reality than local police.

As for me, I have been both helped and ticketed by both state and local police.  I'm impartial between the two.  I needed the help and deserved the tickets, so in both cases the officers did their jobs.  I can't say I've had a negative experience with any police officer, state or local, that I didn't bring upon myself.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

City Pig

Quote
Quote
You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

And you might be surprised about how much abuse of authority exists out there.  These are not mutually exclusive conditions.  I have no doubt that the LEOs who post here write the truth and that they sincerely believe that the police serve a valuable purpose with honor.  I agree with that.  

However, that does not mean that there are not individual cops out there who abuse their authority and exist solely to man speed traps.  I can personally attest from experience and academic knowledge about a dozen such villages in Oklahoma where this is the case.  These cops do not investigate crimes, that duty falling to the county sheriff.  They run radar and they write tickets for the money.  I?m not even sure if they are credentialed yet they have the same authority as you, Catman, Themis and Pete.  We have to deal with these guys every day even if you don?t.

While I do not doubt the intent or the professionalism or the word of our LEO posters, a single encounter with ol? Bubba Fife destroys any goodwill you had managed to build up.  Just because you don?t do what many of the posts allege doesn?t mean it does not happen.
Nope, it wouldn't surprise me. I hear about it every time I log onto a forum... :angry:

The amazing thing is this....You guys will let ONE negative experience ruin your perception of ALL law enforcement personnel however I deal with MANY idiots every day that assault their wives, rob old ladies and murder their own children but yet I still don't paint every person with the same brush... And that's what my point is.  

James Young

City Pig writes:

Nope, it wouldn't surprise me. I hear about it every time I log onto a forum...

CP, with all due respect, if that?s where you first hear of it, it?s already too late.

The amazing thing is this....You guys will let ONE negative experience ruin your perception of ALL law enforcement personnel however I deal with MANY idiots every day that assault their wives, rob old ladies and murder their own children but yet I still don't paint every person with the same brush... And that's what my point is.

I understand and appreciate your point as well as recognize it as accurate.  I know of several petty and isolated events ? some Tulsa PD officers were stealing valuables out of crashed cars before the wreckers could haul them away ? because I still hear old-timers talking about it even though it occurred in about 1955.

My continuing challenge to all the good LEOs is to actively work to bad officers.  If the officers? association or union in LA had fought to remove the guys who beat up Rodney King, we could have avoided the riots after their acquittal.  Further, that event was just one among a continuing pattern of accepted, even encouraged behavior.  The good LEOs knew it was going on and let it go.

The public trusts you with enormous authority and even approves deadly force if appropriate.  The burden on you is that you cannot betray that trust by ignoring abuses of that trust.  
Freedom is dangerous.  You can either accept the risks that come with it or eventually lose it all step-by-step.  Each step will be justified by its proponents as a minor inconvenience that will help make us all "safer."  Personally, I'd rather have a slightly more dangerous world that respects freedom more. ? The Speed Criminal

City Pig

I wouldn't say the Rodney King episode is a good example. There are some details there that many people choose to ignore and instead classify it as "police brutality".

Anyways, I see YOUR point as well. Yes there are some that abuse it but I see many more GOOD officers everyday than I do BAD officers. Not many people start this job with the intent to beat people up on a regular basis. The vast majority of us are out there trying to make a difference in this world that is quickly going downhill. Unfortunately most people here (and especially the younger ones) only see the police as "asses that give out speeding tickets and harass us teenagers". Once they own property and someone decides to damage it or heaven forbid something happens to a family member they'll be the first ones saying "Where the hell are the police?" With my 20 tickets this year I'll bet I have done a lot more than "harass the teenagers" with speeding tickets.

TurboDan

City Pig is right.  None of the officers I've ever known personally got on the job because they wanted to intimidate people and beat them up.  Actually, most of the cops who are friends of mine are sons of police officers.  In NY at least, it's often a family thing as much as any other recruiting effort.

The Rodney King case was a pretty "out there" example for this thread.  Personally, I really appreciate that there are strong police unions.  Too often, politicians, the media, and "community leaders" are so against the police, there needs to be a strong organization to support the police.  Pat Lynch, the PBA leader in NYC, is an excellent spokesman for the NYPD.  When the lynch mob (often led by the media, and then exacerbated by overzealous prosecutors looking to make a name for thesmelves) is out to get an officer, there aren't too many other ways for the officers to tell their side of the story.  And 99% of the time, the officer's side is the right one.

My point is that there are WAY too many people out to bash the police for everything they do, and the unions are really the ONLY countering force in most cases.  That might mean a few rouge cops slip through the cracks, but the alternative would be the tying of the hands of officers to the point where they'd be afraid to actually go out and catch the criminals.

Raza

QuoteI wouldn't say the Rodney King episode is a good example. There are some details there that many people choose to ignore and instead classify it as "police brutality".

Anyways, I see YOUR point as well. Yes there are some that abuse it but I see many more GOOD officers everyday than I do BAD officers. Not many people start this job with the intent to beat people up on a regular basis. The vast majority of us are out there trying to make a difference in this world that is quickly going downhill. Unfortunately most people here (and especially the younger ones) only see the police as "asses that give out speeding tickets and harass us teenagers". Once they own property and someone decides to damage it or heaven forbid something happens to a family member they'll be the first ones saying "Where the hell are the police?" With my 20 tickets this year I'll bet I have done a lot more than "harass the teenagers" with speeding tickets.
I'm not saying you do it, but isn't setting up speed traps around the local high school in the mornings harassing teenagers?  Late teenagers?  Making them even more late?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raghavan

Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:  

giant_mtb

Quote
Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:
That's cause you're a kid...

Raghavan

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:
That's cause you're a kid...
? i drive you know.

giant_mtb

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:
That's cause you're a kid...
? i drive you know.
You do?

Raghavan

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:
That's cause you're a kid...
? i drive you know.
You do?
yes....

giant_mtb

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

You might be surprised at what occurs outside BF, Idaho where you live. In some other areas the police actually do fight crime....I know, I know, it's hard to believe.

It's getting old.
Would that BF,Idaho stand for Butt F*ck, Idaho?  Sorry, Raza, but you asked for it.  And in the "avoid police bashing" forum no less! Shamless.  :D
:lol:  :lol: LOL! :lol:  :lol:
as for me, my record is clean, so i have no problem with LEO's. :praise:
That's cause you're a kid...
? i drive you know.
You do?
yes....
How old are you?