Why haven't any suppliers/vendors created an engine for OEM use like ZF borg warner and all do for transmissions? Most engines are 2.0L DI turbos now anyway, seems like the OEMs are missing out on massive $$$ savings by just signing a supplier for the whole engine and the supplier could have much larger volumes by selling to more than one OEM.
Isn't this kind of the idea behind the big automakers (Ford, GM, VWAG, Stellantis) sharing engines between brands?
3rd party engine manufacturers like CAT and Detroit Diesel used to be popular in the commercial truck world, but that trend has actually shifted towards "in-house" engines like the auto market.
You have that on a small scale with Cosworth.
I think the major auto companies see it as a key differentiator, so even if there was a technically superior engine available they would probably prefer to find a way to make a better engine themselves. Its also unlikely any given engine will be better in all respects. SO this manufacturer might be aiming for more power, the other one might be aiming for more fuel efficiency, another one might be aiming for more physical compactness, and so on and so forth.
As we move to electric vehicles I am curious to see how this develops. Will electric motors become a key differentiator? Or the batteries? Or both?
I mean, they have suppliers for different components. The expertise here though lies with the OEM on overall design, and the supply base are the experts on their individual components. Engines are so critical to the performance and are complex systems across tons of different parts. Same can be said for overall vehicle dynamics. There are expert suppliers across tons of components, but the sum of all of those lies with the OEM.
Most businesses have to determine whether it's better to make stuff themselves or outsource it.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on January 19, 2021, 06:34:54 AM
As we move to electric vehicles I am curious to see how this develops. Will electric motors become a key differentiator? Or the batteries? Or both?
That's what drove my thoughts on this. That and the 2.0L DI turbo engines being so ubiquitous and many seem to have the same characteristics. Transmissions seem to be marching toward the supplier developed way.
Quote from: MrH on January 19, 2021, 06:46:34 AM
I mean, they have suppliers for different components. The expertise here though lies with the OEM on overall design, and the supply base are the experts on their individual components. Engines are so critical to the performance and are complex systems across tons of different parts. Same can be said for overall vehicle dynamics. There are expert suppliers across tons of components, but the sum of all of those lies with the OEM.
Aircraft engines are pretty complex, yet are developed by suppliers for use in military/commercial aircraft.
Quote from: Rich on January 19, 2021, 06:58:54 AM
That's what drove my thoughts on this. That and the 2.0L DI turbo engines being so ubiquitous and many seem to have the same characteristics. Transmissions seem to be marching toward the supplier developed way.
Aircraft engines are pretty complex, yet are developed by suppliers for use in military/commercial aircraft.
GE Aviation is a different animal than your typical Tier I in automotive.
The Dodge/Ram Cummins Diesel engine comes to mind.
It doesn't seem like the engine is a selling point for most customers. 90% of vehicles should have the same, generic 2.0T.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 19, 2021, 08:20:10 AM
It doesn't seem like the engine is a selling point for most customers. 90% of vehicles should have the same, generic 2.0T.
EcoBoost. :ohyeah:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on January 19, 2021, 06:34:54 AM
I think the major auto companies see it as a key differentiator, so even if there was a technically superior engine available they would probably prefer to find a way to make a better engine themselves. Its also unlikely any given engine will be better in all respects. SO this manufacturer might be aiming for more power, the other one might be aiming for more fuel efficiency, another one might be aiming for more physical compactness, and so on and so forth.
As we move to electric vehicles I am curious to see how this develops. Will electric motors become a key differentiator? Or the batteries? Or both?
Hence the snub on the Supra being called a BMW
Quote from: r0tor on January 19, 2021, 11:57:23 AM
Hence the snub on the Supra being called a BMW
If it had been completely Toyota other than the engine, it likely wouldn't have been snubbed as badly. Having an interior that was straight out of BMW didn't help.
Yeah, I think if Toyota happened to purchase a whole engine from the same (whole engine) supplier as a hypothetical BMW engine supplier then it would have been moot.
Didn't Saturn use a Honda engine at some point?
I don't think consumers would mind that much if brand A used an engine from brand B, provided brand B had a better reputation. So even though there was some critique about the Supra being a BMW, I bet Joe Schmoe looking for a sports car would see that as a good thing (unless they wanted a particularly reliable sports car maybe). If BMW borrowed the Camry chassis and engine to make the next 5 series I suspect there would have been more of a dust up. :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on January 19, 2021, 02:29:20 PM
Didn't Saturn use a Honda engine at some point?
I don't think consumers would mind that much if brand A used an engine from brand B, provided brand B had a better reputation. So even though there was some critique about the Supra being a BMW, I bet Joe Schmoe looking for a sports car would see that as a good thing (unless they wanted a particularly reliable sports car maybe). If BMW borrowed the Camry chassis and engine to make the next 5 series I suspect there would have been more of a dust up. :lol:
The Saturn some-thing SUV thing had a Honda V6
Quote from: SJ_GTI on January 19, 2021, 02:29:20 PM
Didn't Saturn use a Honda engine at some point?
I don't think consumers would mind that much if brand A used an engine from brand B, provided brand B had a better reputation. So even though there was some critique about the Supra being a BMW, I bet Joe Schmoe looking for a sports car would see that as a good thing (unless they wanted a particularly reliable sports car maybe). If BMW borrowed the Camry chassis and engine to make the next 5 series I suspect there would have been more of a dust up. :lol:
Yes, and vice versa (Honda used some GM engines in some markets).