I've been driving stick shift for 7 years now and there's one thing, of many, I haven't figured out how to do well which really pisses me off.
When there's snow or ice on the ground, and I'm stopped and I have to get going, I have a habit of burning my clutch. This usually happens when I drive into or out of my garage at my house and the driveway has snow/ice on it. The way my driveway is, I have to do a few turns, stops, and reverses, to get in or out of the garage because the garage entrance is perpendicular to the length of the driveway (it's not a straight drive in).
So what I do is depress the clutch all the way in and have my right foot on the brake. I then take my foot off the brake and inertia won't get me going forward because the driveway is on a slight incline. So I gently tap the accelerator in 1st gear and slowly ease off the clutch. The tires spin because there's snow/ice and I have to give it more gas just to get going. That's when I burn my clutch. If I pop the clutch, I don't burn it but then I feel like I'm driving like an asshat because the car jerks violently.
Any suggestions (besides getting an automatic :lol:)
Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required. This includes any economy car I've ever driven.
If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less. Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.
Quote from: veeman on March 01, 2021, 07:38:41 AM
I've been driving stick shift for 7 years now and there's one thing, of many, I haven't figured out how to do well which really pisses me off.
When there's snow or ice on the ground, and I'm stopped and I have to get going, I have a habit of burning my clutch. This usually happens when I drive into or out of my garage at my house and the driveway has snow/ice on it. The way my driveway is, I have to do a few turns, stops, and reverses, to get in or out of the garage because the garage entrance is perpendicular to the length of the driveway (it's not a straight drive in).
So what I do is depress the clutch all the way in and have my right foot on the brake. I then take my foot off the brake and inertia won't get me going forward because the driveway is on a slight incline. So I gently tap the accelerator in 1st gear and slowly ease off the clutch. The tires spin because there's snow/ice and I have to give it more gas just to get going. That's when I burn my clutch. If I pop the clutch, I don't burn it but then I feel like I'm driving like an asshat because the car jerks violently.
Any suggestions (besides getting an automatic :lol:)
Practice. :huh:
There's bound to be some slippage when engaging the clutch in that circumstance. A very gentle touch on the gas pedal is needed in order to avoid either burning the clutch or spinning the wheels.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 07:59:42 AM
Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required. This includes any economy car I've ever driven.
If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less. Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.
Thanks! I will try...slowly let go of clutch and get right foot off of brake. Don't give any throttle.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 08:31:07 AM
Practice. :huh:
There's bound to be some slippage when engaging the clutch in that circumstance. A very gentle touch on the gas pedal is needed in order to avoid either burning the clutch or spinning the wheels.
I'm barely tapping the throttle and the wheels spin. I guess just don't press the throttle at all if I can get away with that.
If I pop the clutch, nothing burns and I can spin the tires.
Quote from: veeman on March 01, 2021, 08:45:54 AM
I'm barely tapping the throttle and the wheels spin. I guess just don't press the throttle at all if I can get away with that.
If I pop the clutch, nothing burns and I can spin the tires.
If you can release the clutch, not pop it, without stalling, that's best. I would be ready to just tickle the gas pedal just in case.
You can also try starting in 2nd gear on slippery surfaces. I will reduce the torque delivered to the wheels.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 07:59:42 AM
Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required. This includes any economy car I've ever driven.
If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less. Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.
Do most/all new cars with standard transmissions have anti-stall built in? I haven't driven a standard since the '80s...an '86 Tempo.
Actually, the last standard I did drive was a test drive on a early 2000s Audi. Slick as melted butter.
Quote from: RomanChariot on March 01, 2021, 08:51:25 AM
You can also try starting in 2nd gear on slippery surfaces. I will reduce the torque delivered to the wheels.
That might be the best choice. I don't know about Veeman's car, but a lot of newer cars have really touchy throttles that go from 0% to 40% really fast, so it might be hard to prevent wheelspin in 1st gear.
Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway :lol:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 09:39:55 AM
That might be the best choice. I don't know about Veeman's car, but a lot of newer cars have really touchy throttles that go from 0% to 40% really fast, so it might be hard to prevent wheelspin in 1st gear.
That was a technique used going way back. However, it does promote more clutch slippage. Engage too quickly in a higher gear and it will stall.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 09:20:47 AM
Do most/all new cars with standard transmissions have anti-stall built in? I haven't driven a standard since the '80s...an '86 Tempo.
Actually, the last standard I did drive was a test drive on a early 2000s Audi. Slick as melted butter.
Anything I've driven with EFI seems to have it. On flat ground, I could take off from a standing start and accelerate up to about 25 mph (idle speed in 5th gear) in my early 90s 240SX without touching the accelerator. Could do the same in my old Mazda 3. My Mustangs obviously have no issues getting going just by slowly releasing the clutch given the abundance of torque.
And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch? Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual? They are designed to tolerate some slip. If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 09:54:04 AM
And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch? Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual? They are designed to tolerate some slip. If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.
Yes, which is why you need a very delicate touch on the throttle.
Quote from: MrH on March 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway :lol:
:lol:
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 09:54:04 AM
And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch? Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual? They are designed to tolerate some slip. If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.
I smell burning so I know I'm fu_king it up.
My 6 speed TDI beetle had 75 thousand miles before I returned it to VW because of dieselgate. Didn't have to replace clutch. My Crosstrek 5 speed which is geared low I replaced clutch at around 70 thousand miles. It has 100 thousand miles on it currently and I don't want to have to replace clutch again.
Quote from: MrH on March 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway :lol:
Part of reason of getting AWD Subaru and all weather tires was to not have to shovel driveway :lol: What a waste if I can't drive it in snow/ice.
I don't smell any burning if I pop the clutch but then I'm driving like an asshat. I just want to be smooth and not burn the clutch.
I'm very cognizant of this problem. As soon as I park inside my garage, I get out and stand next to the car. If I don't smell burning, I feel good. If I smell burning, I swear. I bat about 50/50 when there's snow or ice on the driveway. Never happens if the driveway is dry or just wet.
I have not regularly tried starting from stop in 2nd gear.
Quote from: veeman on March 01, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
I don't smell any burning if I pop the clutch but then I'm driving like an asshat. I just want to be smooth and not burn the clutch.
I'm very cognizant of this problem. As soon as I park inside my garage, I get out and stand next to the car. If I don't smell burning, I feel good. If I smell burning, I swear. I bat about 50/50 when there's snow or ice on the driveway. Never happens if the driveway is dry or just wet.
I have not regularly tried starting from stop in 2nd gear.
Sounds like you are overly concerned about stalling and applying too much throttle before the clutch is released. I suspect you do this when it's dry as well. Any idea what RPM you are running at when taking off, before the clutch is all the way out?
Launching in 2nd gear requires a more delicate touch, or you will burn the clutch more readily than in 1st. I would not recommend this to someone who burns the clutch in first gear.
Practice taking off without touching the accelerator. If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible. Like under 1500. The lower the better. The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and wear you cause.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 10:45:23 AM
Sounds like you are overly concerned about stalling and applying too much throttle before the clutch is released. I suspect you do this when it's dry as well. Any idea what RPM you are running at when taking off, before the clutch is all the way out?
Launching in 2nd gear requires a more delicate touch, or you will burn the clutch more readily than in 1st. I would not recommend this to someone who burns the clutch in first gear.
Practice taking off without touching the accelerator. If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible. Like under 1500. The lower the better. The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and damage you cause.
Thank you very much. Seriously. YouTube videos I did not find helpful. I must be applying too much throttle before the clutch is released (maybe psychologically thinking this because I am on a slight incline). I am also an impatient driver and like to go pedal to the metal a lot which I can do in underpowered 4 bangers while maintaining good control of the car at street legal speeds.
Quote from: veeman on March 01, 2021, 10:24:08 AM
Part of reason of getting AWD Subaru and all weather tires was to not have to shovel driveway :lol: What a waste if I can't drive it in snow/ice.
Tires make a bigger difference than AWD IME. We don't get much snow here in NJ but I still have winter tires on my (AWD) Golf. No issues taking off in snow, ice can be touch no matter what if it is fresh/slick, but if it is just an ice/snow mix it i also fine.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 10:45:23 AM
Practice taking off without touching the accelerator. If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible. Like under 1500. The lower the better. The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and wear you cause.
I think this is good advice. This was how I taught my youngest brother to drive a manual. At the time I had a A4 1.8T...you have to be delicate but it was a good learning technique because there is less "going on" for someone new. He just had to very gently/slowly release the clutch.
My El Camino is geared pretty tall so it's actually tougher to get it going without touching the gas pedal than my Miata is. The Miata you can just dump the clutch and it'll go, even without touching the gas. And it has like 1/4 the torque. I should do the math to see what the wheel torque is for each in 1st
Try and keep engine speed below 1500 until the clutch is totally out. And try to get the clutch totally released in as quick of time as possible.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
My El Camino is geared pretty tall so it's actually tougher to get it going without touching the gas pedal than my Miata is. The Miata you can just dump the clutch and it'll go, even without touching the gas. And it has like 1/4 the torque. I should do the math to see what the wheel torque is for each in 1st
I assume the Camino is carb'ed? EFI motors, especially those with DBW throttles, have anti-stall.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 12:19:36 PM
I assume the Camino is carb'ed? EFI motors, especially those with DBW throttles, have anti-stall.
Yes.
I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 12:24:40 PM
Yes.
I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?
My Mustang will add some RPM as soon as I lift off the brake.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 12:24:40 PM
Yes.
I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?
I did this with my Golf and it does it (not surprising), but I've also noticed my Z3 does it as well. I think MX is right that it is pretty common.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 12:25:55 PM
My Mustang will add some RPM as soon as I lift off the brake.
Tsk, tsk, so much pampering. :devil:
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 12:29:49 PM
Tsk, tsk, so much pampering. :devil:
Definitely cheating. I had to learn stick with the El Camino with zero pampering and poly bushings that shake the car to communicate all errors.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 12:29:49 PM
Tsk, tsk, so much pampering. :devil:
Has hill-holder as well, but I shut that nonsense off.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 12:34:43 PM
Definitely cheating. I had to learn stick with the El Camino with zero pampering and poly bushings that shake the car to communicate all errors.
I learned on a dirt bike. Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 12:37:38 PM
I learned on a dirt bike. Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.
What kind of engine was in the forklift?
I've driven electric and propane. Propane was nice and didn't have a clutch, as far as I remember. Definitely sounds like a nightmare to have yet another "lever" in the forklift you have to be gentle with
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 01, 2021, 12:43:00 PM
What kind of engine was in the forklift?
I've driven electric and propane. Propane was nice and didn't have a clutch, as far as I remember. Definitely sounds like a nightmare to have yet another "lever" in the forklift you have to be gentle with
Old Toyota with a gas engine and 2-speed gearbox (both forward and reverse). Also had an old I-H agricultural fork truck that was basically a farm tractor with the seat and controls installed backwards so the small steer wheels were in the back. 5MT (shifter came out from under the seat, between your legs, with a backwards pattern) and a weak throttle return spring.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 12:35:10 PM
Has hill-holder as well, but I shut that nonsense off.
Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork. It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.
Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 12:37:38 PM
I learned on a dirt bike. Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.
I learned on a tractor. Of course you could open the throttle and pop the clutch just to see how high you could get the front wheels off the ground.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 01:20:16 PM
Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork. It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.
Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.
I feel like I ran into this a lot while living in Montreal...and yes it was good practice.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 01, 2021, 01:31:28 PM
I feel like I ran into this a lot while living in Montreal...and yes it was good practice.
I think a lot of people just ride the clutch in those circumstances. Not good for the clutch or throw-out bearing, but saves a lot of embarrassment, especially when you keep stalling or roll into the car behand you.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 01:20:16 PM
Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork. It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.
Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.
Or just use the hand brake...
Dump the Crosscrap for a real car?
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2021, 01:39:03 PM
Or just use the hand brake...
That works fine as well, as long as the handbrake is conveniently placed and the rear brakes can hold well enough. Of course, I think back to the time that the emergency brake was located under the dash and you had to lean forward to yank it on and unless you kept your hand on it in the twisted position, it would lock on, a bit of an awkward maneuver.
Anyways, modern technologies do make life easier.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 01:46:31 PM
That works fine as well, as long as the handbrake is conveniently placed and the rear brakes can hold well enough. Of course, I think back to the time that the emergency brake was located under the dash and you had to lean forward to yank it on and unless you kept your hand on it in the twisted position, it would lock on, a bit of an awkward maneuver.
Anyways, modern technologies do make life easier.
Yeah, hand brake technique doesn't work in my El Camino with the foot brake.
Works fine in old VW Bettles, though. And then modern cars don't need it.
Quote from: r0tor on March 01, 2021, 01:43:42 PM
Dump the Crosscrap for a real car?
I like the process of a manual transmission. Especially now that so few people drive one.
My complaints with the Crosscrap are the manual transmission is thirsty (average 23 mpg which is shitty for a small car), it's noisy (this generation base model has poor insulation), and it has known CV joint and wheel bearing issues probably because it's basically a lifted Impreza and Subaru didn't do due diligence in designing/engineering those parts when lifting the car.
Overall though I like it. The styling has a rugged look about it I like and I like the unique khaki color.
Detune your car. You're clearly packing too much horsepower. :tounge:
After returning from my nightshift this morning, I experimented a bit around in my driveway. There was a little bit of ice because it was still below freezing outside.
If I am at a full stop with my car in 1st gear and the clutch fully depressed, if I slowly let out the clutch with my right foot completely off the brake, the car does not move forward. Not even a little bit. It just stands there and will stall unless I give it throttle. Maybe because I am at a slight incline and/or maybe because of the one inch of snow/ice on the ground. I tried this a few times. The car does not move. When leaving my dry covered parking garage from work earlier this morning, when I slowly released the clutch in first gear with my right foot off the brake, the car did move forward, albeit rather slowly. But in my driveway in the current conditions, it does not.
So with the car still motionless and in first gear, I very gently tap the throttle keeping the clutch half depressed. The tach goes to 2500 rpm momentarily before settling around 1500 rpm and the car moves forward relatively smoothly without wheel spin. Now here's where I'm having trouble. The clutch is half depressed. If I slowly release the clutch all the way, without giving more throttle, the car will stall. If I slowly release the clutch all the way and slowly give more throttle at the same time, I'm way over 1500 rpm (as expected) and while doing this, I think I'm burning the clutch because I'm not releasing the clutch fast enough. If I pop the clutch and give throttle, no burning but driving like an asshat. What I end up doing is slowly releasing the clutch, slowly giving throttle (rpm goes to 2500 or 3000 before settling around 1500), again depressing the clutch all the way while car is slowly moving forward, when car starts to slow to a crawl again, again slowly releasing clutch half way and slowly giving more throttle, until I'm inside my garage. Get out of car. Mild burning smell. Mutter F_ck.
You may not be releasing the clutch slowly enough when your RPMs are low. 1500 RPM should absolutely be enough, even with an inch of snow on the ground, unless it's a pretty significant incline.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 08:32:05 AM
You may not be releasing the clutch slowly enough when your RPMs are low. 1500 RPM should absolutely be enough, even with an inch of snow on the ground, unless it's a pretty significant incline.
Sorry I didn't understand. My clutch is half depressed and I very gently tap the throttle. RPM goes momentarily to 2500 rpm before settling around 1500 rpm. Are you saying at this point, I may be releasing the clutch too quick and that I should release it slower? That by releasing the clutch slower at this point than I have been doing, I shouldn't have to give it more throttle to maintain forward movement and yet not stall.
It's not a significant incline. Probably around 5 degrees.
With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500. Then slowly release the clutch. Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips. Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly. If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit. Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 09:01:46 AM
With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500. Then slowly release the clutch. Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips. Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly. If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit. Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.
+1
I prefer this method to the "blip the throttle constantly" method.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 09:01:46 AM
With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500. Then slowly release the clutch. Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips. Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly. If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit. Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 02, 2021, 09:06:16 AM
+1
I prefer this method to the "blip the throttle constantly" method.
OK thanks!! I will try this.
Another vote here for using second gear; it's the correct technique. You want that low torque, a very delicate touch, and should never spin the wheels.
(takes notes)
I might've abused the clutch a couple times on the Accord :mask:
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 02, 2021, 01:01:37 PM
Another vote here for using second gear; it's the correct technique. You want that low torque, a very delicate touch, and should never spin the wheels.
2nd gear starts do work well, but only for someone who has starting without burning a clutch in 1st gear down pat. If you are smoking the clutch trying to start in first gear, you don't have the sensitive touch required to start in 2nd without smoking a clutch (it requires more slipping than first to prevent stalling).
I'm also not sure how necessary it is when you have AWD. On a single driven axle (especially open diff and no TCS), yeah, it's an effective technique.
Starting in 2nd gear for someone who is already smoking the clutch in 1st is a bad idea.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 01:14:31 PM
2nd gear starts do work well, but only for someone who has starting without burning a clutch in 1st gear down pat. If you are smoking the clutch trying to start in first gear, you don't have the sensitive touch required to start in 2nd without smoking a clutch (it requires more slipping than first to prevent stalling).
I'm also not sure how necessary it is when you have AWD. On a single driven axle (especially open diff and no TCS), yeah, it's an effective technique.
I agree. The only reason for starting in second on a slippery surface is that you get more slippage...on the clutch surfaces...when the clutch engages...more resistance...and, therefore, do not need such a delicate touch.
Best to practice in first until you get a proper feel for it. It's important to feel when the clutch surfaces engage and then slowly, with as few engine revs as possible, engage so that the wheels don't spin. If the wheels starts to slip/spin, back off very slightly on the clutch pedal and try again.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 02:31:13 PM
I agree. The only reason for starting in second on a slippery surface is that you get more slippage...on the clutch surfaces...when the clutch engages...more resistance...and, therefore, do not need such a delicate touch.
Best to practice in first until you get a proper feel for it. It's important to feel when the clutch surfaces engage and then slowly, with as few engine revs as possible, engage so that the wheels don't spin. If the wheels starts to slip/spin, back off very slightly on the clutch pedal and try again.
2nd gear start reduces wheel torque, so less delicate with the throttle, but more delicate with the clutch. Veeman is smoking his clutch in first gear on slick surfaces. 2nd gear starts are not a good idea for him at this time. Especially with an AWD vehicle.
2nd gear WOT + clutch dump. Send it.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 02:56:08 PM
2nd gear start reduces wheel torque, so less delicate with the throttle, but more delicate with the clutch. Veeman is smoking his clutch in first gear on slick surfaces. 2nd gear starts are not a good idea for him at this time. Especially with an AWD vehicle.
Yes, reduces wheel torque but more resistance on the pressure plate thus allowing less delicacy on the clutch pedal...it'll slip more and not grab as quickly.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 03:46:24 PM
Yes, reduces wheel torque but more resistance on the pressure plate thus allowing less delicacy on the clutch pedal...it'll slip more and not grab as quickly.
It results in more required slippage to get moving, which means you need to be more delicate, not less. If you are smoking the clutch in 1st because you are giving it too many RPMs and slipping more than you should for fear of stalling, you will have worse results attempting to start in 2nd and are at much higher risk of burning the clutch.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
It results in more required slippage to get moving, which means you need to be more delicate, not less. If you are smoking the clutch in 1st because you are giving it too many RPMs and slipping more than you should for fear of stalling, you will have worse results attempting to start in 2nd and are at much higher risk of burning the clutch.
Just saying that there is more resistance from the pressure plate so the clutch will slip more before it starts to turn the pressure plate. This then allows for a greater travel on the clutch pedal before it grips hence, a less delicate touch required. Of course, easier to stall the car if you're not careful on the gas pedal. In order to do it right, you would want the lowest revs possible without stalling it.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 05:08:03 PM
Just saying that there is more resistance from the pressure plate so the clutch will slip more before it starts to turn the pressure plate. This then allows for a greater travel on the clutch pedal before it grips hence, a less delicate touch required. Of course, easier to stall the car if you're not careful on the gas pedal. In order to do it right, you would want the lowest revs possible without stalling it.
The amount of travel in the clutch pedal does not change. The pressure between the clutch plates for any given point in the pedal travel is the same regardless of gear, and therefore the friction force is the same. Starting in a higher gear requires you spend more time with the plates slipping, and that you mete out the clutch pedal more slowly in that slipping zone and with greater care to avoid stalling. The more slipped distance at a given plate pressure, the more wear and tear on the clutch. 2nd gear starts require more delicacy with the clutch, not less.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 05:13:44 PM
The amount of travel in the clutch pedal does not change. The pressure between the clutch plates for any given point in the pedal travel is the same regardless of gear, and therefore the friction force is the same. Starting in a higher gear requires you spend more time with the plates slipping, and that you mete out the clutch pedal more slowly in that slipping zone and with greater care to avoid stalling. The more slipped distance at a given plate pressure, the more wear and tear on the clutch. 2nd gear starts require more delicacy with the clutch, not less.
Once again, if there is more resistance from the pressure plate then more pressure is needed from the clutch disc being pressed against the flywheel which presupposes that the clutch pedal much be released a bit further in order to overcome the resistance; hence a bit more travel needed on the clutch pedal in order to apply more pressure on the clutch disc.
A little more wiggle room on the clutch pedal.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 06:02:51 PM
Once again, if there is more resistance from the pressure plate then more pressure is needed from the clutch disc being pressed against the flywheel which presupposes that the clutch pedal much be released a bit further in order to overcome the resistance; hence a bit more travel needed on the clutch pedal in order to apply more pressure on the clutch disc.
A little more wiggle room on the clutch pedal.
That would imply that it's harder to stall, which is incorrect.
More "resistance" at the transmission side means you need more pressure between the plates, but the motor side is constant. It will still stall if the speed is dragged down by the transmission side. This means more throttle, more slippage, more heat, and more wear.
If you can smell clutch; you still have clutch.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 06:10:28 PM
That would imply that it's harder to stall, which is incorrect.
More "resistance" at the transmission side means you need more pressure between the plates, but the motor side is constant. It will still stall if the speed is dragged down by the transmission side. This means more throttle, more slippage, more heat, and more wear.
That is all correct, which is why it is not a good idea. However, it still gives you a bit more wiggle room on the clutch pedal.
Try it in high gear and you'll get a lot more slippage before the clutch disc gets a good grip on the flywheel/pressure plate. If your clutch components are a bit too worn, you'll have the clutch pedal all the way out and it'll still be slipping.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 06:18:13 PM
That is all correct, which is why it is not a good idea. However, it still gives you a bit more wiggle room on the clutch pedal.
Try it in high gear and you'll get a lot more slippage before the clutch disc gets a good grip on the flywheel/pressure plate. If your clutch components are a bit too worn, you'll have the clutch pedal all the way out and it'll still be slipping.
Not really. It takes more clutch to get the car moving, but it also pushes you closer to stalling the engine in the process, which means much more slipping. Starting in 1st is much more forgiving, which is why it's pretty easy in most any vehicle to take off in first without even touching the accelerator.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 06:20:29 PM
Not really. It takes more clutch to get the car moving, but it also pushes you closer to stalling the engine in the process, which means much more slipping. Starting in 1st is much more forgiving, which is why it's pretty easy in most any vehicle to take off in first without even touching the accelerator.
Yes, much more slipping which is not a good idea.
I believe its only useful for those who have trouble engaging, or finding the engaging point in the clutch pedal travel. If you do not have a sensitive and steady foot, you can engage the clutch too suddenly and with more torque applied to the wheels they will slip. With a higher gear, if you miss the delicate engagement point you will get more slippage within the clutch apparatus and less torque applied to the wheels. As well, it drags your rpm down quicker and if you don't suddenly tramp on the gas pedal to keep it from stalling, it just might get you moving.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 06:27:25 PM
Yes, much more slipping which is not a good idea.
I believe its only useful for those who have trouble engaging, or finding the engaging point in the clutch pedal travel. If you do not have a sensitive and steady foot, you can engage the clutch too suddenly and with more torque applied to the wheels they will slip. With a higher gear, if you miss the delicate engagement point you will get more slippage within the clutch apparatus and less torque applied to the wheels. As well, it drags your rpm down quicker and if you don't suddenly tramp on the gas pedal to keep it from stalling, it just might get you moving.
The real benefit to starting in 2nd on a slick surface is more what comes after the clutch has fully engaged. Torque at the wheels at any RPM is reduced, and the rate at which torque increases with vehicle speed is significantly reduced, making it easier to accelerate without spinning the tires. Likewise, it's usually advisable to keep the car in the highest gear possible, upshifting early, while in the snow since this results in the least torque at the wheels for any speed, both accelerating and under engine braking, meaning you can be less delicate with the accelerator.
The faster the engine is going the faster you'll burn the clutch. I find it odd you're slipping wheels that much in a subie??...
The point of starting in 2nd is that he could get it a bit of throttle and engage the clutch quickly without accelerating as quickly as he would in 1st.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 06:52:32 PM
The real benefit to starting in 2nd on a slick surface is more what comes after the clutch has fully engaged. Torque at the wheels at any RPM is reduced, and the rate at which torque increases with vehicle speed is significantly reduced, making it easier to accelerate without spinning the tires. Likewise, it's usually advisable to keep the car in the highest gear possible, upshifting early, while in the snow since this results in the least torque at the wheels for any speed, both accelerating and under engine braking, meaning you can be less delicate with the accelerator.
That's true as well, but the point was getting it going on a slippery surface without spinning the wheels.
I just gotta think, you guys are way overcomplicating this.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 02, 2021, 07:07:45 PM
The point of starting in 2nd is that he could get it a bit of throttle and engage the clutch quickly without accelerating as quickly as he would in 1st.
If you're sitting on an icy surface on a uphill grade and engage the clutch quickly, all you would accomplish is having the wheels spin faster.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 07:14:40 PM
That's true as well, but the point was getting it going on a slippery surface without spinning the wheels.
Simply letting out the clutch in 1st on a slick surface without touching the throttle will get the car moving with very little wheelspin. But you need to be very ginger with the throttle once the clutch is out.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 07:21:03 PM
Simply letting out the clutch in 1st on a slick surface without touching the throttle will get the car moving with very little wheelspin. But you need to be very ginger with the throttle once the clutch is out.
Didn't he say he stalled when he did that? I've lost track.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 02, 2021, 07:23:49 PM
Didn't he say he stalled when he did that? I've lost track.
Yes, but that could be a technique issue (letting the clutch out too quickly once the friction point is reached). Bear in mind the original post complained of burnt clutch and excessive wheelspin on a snowy driveway in an AWD vehicle taking off in 1st.
Don't AT cars roast their diff clutch packs when driving in snow?
Quote from: Laconian on March 02, 2021, 07:31:04 PM
Don't AT cars roast their diff clutch packs when driving in snow?
If you have a friction based differential, excessive wheelspin can wear the clutch pack out. You can blow an open differential with excess wheelspin.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2021, 07:30:27 PM
Yes, but that could be a technique issue (letting the clutch out too quickly once the friction point is reached). Bear in mind the original post complained of burnt clutch and excessive wheelspin on a snowy driveway in an AWD vehicle taking off in 1st.
Yes, I believe that's what we're discussing, a technique issue.
My advice is is to practice until he can delicately engage the clutch, even briefly holding it at the engagement point until he gets a good feel for it and even more delicately engaging the throttle to prevent it from stalling as once again, delicately engaging the clutch to slowly apply the torque to the wheels. Once some movement is accomplished a little more throttle can be applied.
Quote from: Laconian on March 02, 2021, 07:31:04 PM
Don't AT cars roast their diff clutch packs when driving in snow?
They can, if you drive like you're not on snow, or drive like you're Petter Solberg on snow.
I tried again this morning on my driveway. Most of the snow/ice is melted but there was still a good 15 ft x 15 ft patch of 1/2 in thick ice a few feet from my garage door so it was perfect. I centered the Subie Craptrek on it. Because of the angle of the driveway with respect to the garage door, my front wheels were turned 45 degrees. Incline is about 5 degrees.
1. I park the car. Foot on brake and clutch depressed I release the hand brake and put it in 1st gear. Slowly release clutch with foot completely off of brake. Car doesn't move forward. Just stands there. I'm pretty confident this is not an error of mine. I will stall unless I give throttle or I depress the clutch again.
2. I do exactly what MX793 told me to do. I depress clutch all the way and very gingerly give throttle. (by the way the car idles at 1800 rpm when in neutral with foot off of the throttle and handbrake engaged)... anyways I very gingerly give throttle and keep RPM as much as I can around 1500. I'm f_cking concentrating man. I slowly release clutch, if I feel like the car is going to stall, I only modulate the clutch and I keep the throttle as much as possible around 1500 rpm and not higher.
Voila!... the car smoothly goes into the open garage with no wheel spin. I get out and don't smell any burning. F_ck yeah!! Sweet! I repeat the maneuver two more times. Each time smooth forward movement and no burning. Thanks man!!
I don't think the ice will stick around for another night so I'll have to practice probably again next year. But honestly I feel pretty good.
Question: the one thing I'm thinking is this method is great for snow/ice covered driveways but isn't that great when at a stop light or stop sign on snow covered roads because I like to accelerate fast and controlled wheel spin is kinda cool. But I don't want to burn the clutch. In this situation in the future, should I just do what CaminoRacer suggested and start in 2nd gear, give wide open throttle, and pop the clutch. I think what I have been doing is giving wide open throttle in 1st gear while popping the clutch. Car jerks, tires spin, I go forward fast, but no burn smell. Is popping the clutch significantly bad for the clutch or bad for the car in general? On my driveway I don't want to give a lot of throttle and pop the clutch because I don't want to go fast and spin the wheels. Especially near my garage.
1800 RPM is a really high idle unless the engine is cold. Every car I've ever owned idled under 1000 when at operating temperature.
Does the Crosstrek have hill-hold assist? That might be part of the issue.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2021, 09:19:56 AM
1800 RPM is a really high idle unless the engine is cold. Every car I've ever owned idled under 1000 when at operating temperature.
Does the Crosstrek have hill-hold assist? That might be part of the issue.
Car wasn't that cold (I drove it about 3 hours ago and my garage is somewhat insulated). Craptrek does have hill assist. But I just googled and it can be disabled. Should I disable it? My prior VW Beetle (I just googled) also had hill assist so I guess my experience in driving manual transmission cars regularly has been with hill assist on. So I don't know if I would go backwards when starting on a significant incline without it. I don't think I would because I had driven occasionally manual transmission cars in my youth without hill assist. But that was many years ago and I didn't drive them a lot.
If disabling hill assist will increase the life span of my clutch, I will definitely disable it.
3 hours is long enough for oil and coolant to cool down to room temperature, and I assume your garage is not heated. Normal idle should be around 800 RPM.
I have limited experience with hill hold. My current Mustang has it and I didn't care for it and disabled it within the first week of ownership. I didn't stall because of it, but I could see how it might make starts a little harder. However, I learned to drive stick without it and had over 15 years of driving stick to refine my technique. If you've never driven without it, you'll need to make some adjustment to your driving style and re-learn how to start on hills.
Quote from: veeman on March 03, 2021, 09:13:16 AM
Question: the one thing I'm thinking is this method is great for snow/ice covered driveways but isn't that great when at a stop light or stop sign on snow covered roads because I like to accelerate fast and controlled wheel spin is kinda cool. But I don't want to burn the clutch. In this situation in the future, should I just do what CaminoRacer suggested and start in 2nd gear, give wide open throttle, and pop the clutch. I think what I have been doing is giving wide open throttle in 1st gear while popping the clutch. Car jerks, tires spin, I go forward fast, but no burn smell. Is popping the clutch significantly bad for the clutch or bad for the car in general? On my driveway I don't want to give a lot of throttle and pop the clutch because I don't want to go fast and spin the wheels. Especially near my garage.
It's not bad for the clutch but it can be very hard on the drivetrain (differential, CV joints, etc) since instead of the clutch taking the brunt of the torque, it goes straight to the drivetrain and wheels. If it's snowy and the road is slick, you'd be unlikely to harm anything since the tires will spin. Spinning tires are good to avoid breaking things in the drivetrain, since the energy is able to "escape" into motion. But like MX has said, spinning the tires too fast can wear out the differential too. So 2nd gear should only be used when 1st gear spins the tires too much in the snow. It's a balancing act between spinning the tires and being nice to the clutch.
Letting the clutch out slowly at idle is unlikely to wear out the clutch. But revving the engine at higher rpms (2,000+) and letting the clutch out slowly will wear it out pretty quick and that's when you'll start smelling it. So the best options are 1. be gentle on the throttle and let the clutch out slowly or 2. be aggressive on the throttle and dump the clutch so it doesn't have time to wear out. I only do #2 when racing/autocrossing, because it's incredibly obnoxious on the street and does have the potential to break axles/differentials like mentioned before.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2021, 09:19:56 AM
1800 RPM is a really high idle unless the engine is cold. Every car I've ever owned idled under 1000 when at operating temperature.
Does the Crosstrek have hill-hold assist? That might be part of the issue.
My Subie 2.5 has a high initial idle which drops down after 30 seconds or so.
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2021, 03:20:00 PM
My Subie 2.5 has a high initial idle which drops down after 30 seconds or so.
Yeah, most cars will have a high idle on initial startup.
I usually wait for my idle to drop to around 1100 before I start moving. Only takes a few seconds but it lets the engine start running on a more normal fuel mixture (instead of being very rich) and also gives the oil a little bit of time to get up to the top of the heads.
While leaving work this morning I checked the Craptrek's RPM at idle when first starting the car (it had been parked in the garage at work overnight). It was 1800 RPM. Five minutes later, at a stop light, I checked the idle again. It was now at 800 RPM. You guys are correct.
I have heard that for the last few decades, there is no need to warm up a car prior to driving off. You don't need to do that with modern cars. I can't really do that anyways at my work because people are always searching for parking spots and they expect you to leave the spot as soon as you get in your car. Whatever. I'm not a sit in my car without driving off type of person. :lol:
You should let a car idle for about 30 seconds before driving. And then avoid hard driving until it is up to temperature (which should only take 5 minutes of driving). Idling until up to full temp is also not good for the car.
Quote from: MX793 on March 04, 2021, 07:55:52 AM
You should let a car idle for about 30 seconds before driving. And then avoid hard driving until it is up to temperature (which should only take 5 minutes of driving). Idling until up to full temp is also not good for the car.
Agree, my car takes about 30 seconds to come down from 1500 rpm to 800. I always wait till it does. As well, I never turn on my climate control in the Winter until the engine temperature reaches normal running temperature.
Quote from: veeman on March 04, 2021, 07:49:37 AM
While leaving work this morning I checked the Craptrek's RPM at idle when first starting the car (it had been parked in the garage at work overnight). It was 1800 RPM. Five minutes later, at a stop light, I checked the idle again. It was now at 800 RPM. You guys are correct.
I have heard that for the last few decades, there is no need to warm up a car prior to driving off. You don't need to do that with modern cars. I can't really do that anyways at my work because people are always searching for parking spots and they expect you to leave the spot as soon as you get in your car. Whatever. I'm not a sit in my car without driving off type of person. :lol:
Sounds like my wife. She hates being idle.
Quote from: MX793 on March 04, 2021, 07:55:52 AM
You should let a car idle for about 30 seconds before driving. And then avoid hard driving until it is up to temperature (which should only take 5 minutes of driving). Idling until up to full temp is also not good for the car.
+1
Gentle driving is the best warm up.