Question regarding accelerating from stop on snow/ice with manual transmission

[veeman]

I've been driving stick shift for 7 years now and there's one thing, of many, I haven't figured out how to do well which really pisses me off. 

When there's snow or ice on the ground, and I'm stopped and I have to get going, I have a habit of burning my clutch.  This usually happens when I drive into or out of my garage at my house and the driveway has snow/ice on it.  The way my driveway is, I have to do a few turns, stops, and reverses, to get in or out of the garage because the garage entrance is perpendicular to the length of the driveway (it's not a straight drive in).

So what I do is depress the clutch all the way in and have my right foot on the brake.  I then take my foot off the brake and inertia won't get me going forward because the driveway is on a slight incline.  So I gently tap the accelerator in 1st gear and slowly ease off the clutch.  The tires spin because there's snow/ice and I have to give it more gas just to get going.  That's when I burn my clutch.  If I pop the clutch, I don't burn it but then I feel like I'm driving like an asshat because the car jerks violently. 

Any suggestions (besides getting an automatic )

[MX793]

Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required.  This includes any economy car I've ever driven.

If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less.  Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.

[FoMoJo]

I've been driving stick shift for 7 years now and there's one thing, of many, I haven't figured out how to do well which really pisses me off. 

When there's snow or ice on the ground, and I'm stopped and I have to get going, I have a habit of burning my clutch.  This usually happens when I drive into or out of my garage at my house and the driveway has snow/ice on it.  The way my driveway is, I have to do a few turns, stops, and reverses, to get in or out of the garage because the garage entrance is perpendicular to the length of the driveway (it's not a straight drive in).

So what I do is depress the clutch all the way in and have my right foot on the brake.  I then take my foot off the brake and inertia won't get me going forward because the driveway is on a slight incline.  So I gently tap the accelerator in 1st gear and slowly ease off the clutch.  The tires spin because there's snow/ice and I have to give it more gas just to get going.  That's when I burn my clutch.  If I pop the clutch, I don't burn it but then I feel like I'm driving like an asshat because the car jerks violently. 

Any suggestions (besides getting an automatic )

Practice.

There's bound to be some slippage when engaging the clutch in that circumstance.  A very gentle touch on the gas pedal is needed in order to avoid either burning the clutch or spinning the wheels. 

[veeman]

Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required.  This includes any economy car I've ever driven.

If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less.  Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.

Thanks!  I will try...slowly let go of clutch and get right foot off of brake.  Don't give any throttle.

[veeman]

Practice.

There's bound to be some slippage when engaging the clutch in that circumstance.  A very gentle touch on the gas pedal is needed in order to avoid either burning the clutch or spinning the wheels.

I'm barely tapping the throttle and the wheels spin.  I guess just don't press the throttle at all if I can get away with that.

If I pop the clutch, nothing burns and I can spin the tires. 

[FoMoJo]

I'm barely tapping the throttle and the wheels spin.  I guess just don't press the throttle at all if I can get away with that.

If I pop the clutch, nothing burns and I can spin the tires. 

If you can release the clutch, not pop it, without stalling, that's best.  I would be ready to just tickle the gas pedal just in case.

[RomanChariot]

You can also try starting in 2nd gear on slippery surfaces. I will reduce the torque delivered to the wheels.

[FoMoJo]

Most cars have enough torque that, unless on a decent incline, you can take off from a stop simply by slowly releasing the clutch pedal; no throttle/accelerator required.  This includes any economy car I've ever driven.

If the tires are spinning because of snow/ice, the correct response is not more throttle, but less.  Tires spin because you are applying too much torque/power for the traction available.

Do most/all new cars with standard transmissions have anti-stall built in?  I haven't driven a standard since the '80s...an '86 Tempo.

Actually, the last standard I did drive was a test drive on a early 2000s Audi.  Slick as melted butter.

[CaminoRacer]

You can also try starting in 2nd gear on slippery surfaces. I will reduce the torque delivered to the wheels.

That might be the best choice. I don't know about Veeman's car, but a lot of newer cars have really touchy throttles that go from 0% to 40% really fast, so it might be hard to prevent wheelspin in 1st gear.

[MrH]

Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway

[FoMoJo]

That might be the best choice. I don't know about Veeman's car, but a lot of newer cars have really touchy throttles that go from 0% to 40% really fast, so it might be hard to prevent wheelspin in 1st gear.

That was a technique used going way back.  However, it does promote more clutch slippage.  Engage too quickly in a higher gear and it will stall.

[MX793]

Do most/all new cars with standard transmissions have anti-stall built in?  I haven't driven a standard since the '80s...an '86 Tempo.

Actually, the last standard I did drive was a test drive on a early 2000s Audi.  Slick as melted butter.

Anything I've driven with EFI seems to have it.  On flat ground, I could take off from a standing start and accelerate up to about 25 mph (idle speed in 5th gear) in my early 90s 240SX without touching the accelerator.  Could do the same in my old Mazda 3.  My Mustangs obviously have no issues getting going just by slowly releasing the clutch given the abundance of torque.

[MX793]

And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch?  Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual?  They are designed to tolerate some slip.  If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.

[FoMoJo]

And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch?  Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual?  They are designed to tolerate some slip.  If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.

Yes, which is why you need a very delicate touch on the throttle. 

[SJ_GTI]

Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway

[veeman]

And when we are talking about "burning the clutch", do you mean you actually smell burnt clutch?  Or just that you are slipping it a bit more than usual?  They are designed to tolerate some slip.  If you are slipping enough that you can smell something burning, there's a problem.

I smell burning so I know I'm fu_king it up. 

My 6 speed TDI beetle had 75 thousand miles before I returned it to VW because of dieselgate.  Didn't have to replace clutch.  My Crosstrek 5 speed which is geared low I replaced clutch at around 70 thousand miles.  It has 100 thousand miles on it currently and I don't want to have to replace clutch again. 

[veeman]

Sounds like you need to shovel your driveway

Part of reason of getting AWD Subaru and all weather tires was to not have to shovel driveway    What a waste if I can't drive it in snow/ice.

[veeman]

I don't smell any burning if I pop the clutch but then I'm driving like an asshat.  I just want to be smooth and not burn the clutch. 

I'm very cognizant of this problem.  As soon as I park inside my garage, I get out and stand next to the car. If I don't smell burning, I feel good.  If I smell burning, I swear.  I bat about 50/50 when there's snow or ice on the driveway.  Never happens if the driveway is dry or just wet. 

I have not regularly tried starting from stop in 2nd gear.

[MX793]

I don't smell any burning if I pop the clutch but then I'm driving like an asshat.  I just want to be smooth and not burn the clutch. 

I'm very cognizant of this problem.  As soon as I park inside my garage, I get out and stand next to the car. If I don't smell burning, I feel good.  If I smell burning, I swear.  I bat about 50/50 when there's snow or ice on the driveway.  Never happens if the driveway is dry or just wet. 

I have not regularly tried starting from stop in 2nd gear.

Sounds like you are overly concerned about stalling and applying too much throttle before the clutch is released.  I suspect you do this when it's dry as well.  Any idea what RPM you are running at when taking off, before the clutch is all the way out? 

Launching in 2nd gear requires a more delicate touch, or you will burn the clutch more readily than in 1st.  I would not recommend this to someone who burns the clutch in first gear.

Practice taking off without touching the accelerator.  If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible.  Like under 1500.  The lower the better.  The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and wear you cause.

[veeman]

Sounds like you are overly concerned about stalling and applying too much throttle before the clutch is released.  I suspect you do this when it's dry as well.  Any idea what RPM you are running at when taking off, before the clutch is all the way out? 

Launching in 2nd gear requires a more delicate touch, or you will burn the clutch more readily than in 1st.  I would not recommend this to someone who burns the clutch in first gear.

Practice taking off without touching the accelerator.  If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible.  Like under 1500.  The lower the better.  The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and damage you cause.

Thank you very much.  Seriously.  YouTube videos I did not find helpful.  I must be applying too much throttle before the clutch is released (maybe psychologically thinking this because I am on a slight incline). I am also an impatient driver and like to go pedal to the metal a lot which I can do in underpowered 4 bangers while maintaining good control of the car at street legal speeds. 

[SJ_GTI]

Part of reason of getting AWD Subaru and all weather tires was to not have to shovel driveway    What a waste if I can't drive it in snow/ice.

Tires make a bigger difference than AWD IME. We don't get much snow here in NJ but I still have winter tires on my (AWD) Golf. No issues taking off in snow, ice can be touch no matter what if it is fresh/slick, but if it is just an ice/snow mix it i also fine.

Practice taking off without touching the accelerator.  If the car just doesn't have enough torque, practice using the accelerator but keeping the RPM as low as possible.  Like under 1500.  The lower the better.  The faster the engine is running as you release the clutch, the more heat and wear you cause.

I think this is good advice. This was how I taught my youngest brother to drive a manual. At the time I had a A4 1.8T...you have to be delicate but it was a good learning technique because there is less "going on" for someone new. He just had to very gently/slowly release the clutch.

[CaminoRacer]

My El Camino is geared pretty tall so it's actually tougher to get it going without touching the gas pedal than my Miata is. The Miata you can just dump the clutch and it'll go, even without touching the gas. And it has like 1/4 the torque. I should do the math to see what the wheel torque is for each in 1st

[MrH]

Try and keep engine speed below 1500 until the clutch is totally out.  And try to get the clutch totally released in as quick of time as possible.

[MX793]

My El Camino is geared pretty tall so it's actually tougher to get it going without touching the gas pedal than my Miata is. The Miata you can just dump the clutch and it'll go, even without touching the gas. And it has like 1/4 the torque. I should do the math to see what the wheel torque is for each in 1st

I assume the Camino is carb'ed?  EFI motors, especially those with DBW throttles, have anti-stall.

[CaminoRacer]

I assume the Camino is carb'ed?  EFI motors, especially those with DBW throttles, have anti-stall.

Yes.

I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?

[MX793]

Yes.

I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?

My Mustang will add some RPM as soon as I lift off the brake.

[SJ_GTI]

Yes.

I should watch the Miata tach next time, see if I can see it secretly adding rpms?

I did this with my Golf and it does it (not surprising), but I've also noticed my Z3 does it as well. I think MX is right that it is pretty common.

[FoMoJo]

My Mustang will add some RPM as soon as I lift off the brake.

Tsk, tsk, so much pampering.

[CaminoRacer]

Tsk, tsk, so much pampering.

Definitely cheating. I had to learn stick with the El Camino with zero pampering and poly bushings that shake the car to communicate all errors.

[MX793]

Tsk, tsk, so much pampering.

Has hill-holder as well, but I shut that nonsense off.