Question regarding accelerating from stop on snow/ice with manual transmission

[MX793]

Definitely cheating. I had to learn stick with the El Camino with zero pampering and poly bushings that shake the car to communicate all errors.

I learned on a dirt bike.  Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.

[CaminoRacer]

I learned on a dirt bike.  Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.

What kind of engine was in the forklift?

I've driven electric and propane. Propane was nice and didn't have a clutch, as far as I remember. Definitely sounds like a nightmare to have yet another "lever" in the forklift you have to be gentle with

[MX793]

What kind of engine was in the forklift?

I've driven electric and propane. Propane was nice and didn't have a clutch, as far as I remember. Definitely sounds like a nightmare to have yet another "lever" in the forklift you have to be gentle with

Old Toyota with a gas engine and 2-speed gearbox (both forward and reverse).  Also had an old I-H agricultural fork truck that was basically a farm tractor with the seat and controls installed backwards so the small steer wheels were in the back.  5MT (shifter came out from under the seat, between your legs, with a backwards pattern) and a weak throttle return spring.

[FoMoJo]

Has hill-holder as well, but I shut that nonsense off.

Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork.  It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.

Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.

[FoMoJo]

I learned on a dirt bike.  Learned a foot clutch on an old forklift, where herky-jerky starts and stops could dump a stack of stuff on the ground.

I learned on a tractor.  Of course you could open the throttle and pop the clutch just to see how high you could get the front wheels off the ground.

[SJ_GTI]

Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork.  It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.

Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.

I feel like I ran into this a lot while living in Montreal...and yes it was good practice.

[FoMoJo]

I feel like I ran into this a lot while living in Montreal...and yes it was good practice.

I think a lot of people just ride the clutch in those circumstances.  Not good for the clutch or throw-out bearing, but saves a lot of embarrassment, especially when you keep stalling or roll into the car behand you.

[MX793]

Steep hills that required stopping are a good test of fancy footwork.  It's easy enough to hold your spot by riding the clutch with your foot nudging the gas, but to go from brake to gas while letting in the clutch without stalling or letting the car fall backwards...sometimes into the car behind you...was often a bit tricky.

Of course, all these nanny gizmos would make it too easy.

Or just use the hand brake...

[r0tor]

Dump the Crosscrap for a real car?

[FoMoJo]

Or just use the hand brake...

That works fine as well, as long as the handbrake is conveniently placed and the rear brakes can hold well enough.  Of course, I think back to the time that the emergency brake was located under the dash and you had to lean forward to yank it on and unless you kept your hand on it in the twisted position, it would lock on, a bit of an awkward maneuver. 

Anyways, modern technologies do make life easier.

[CaminoRacer]

That works fine as well, as long as the handbrake is conveniently placed and the rear brakes can hold well enough.  Of course, I think back to the time that the emergency brake was located under the dash and you had to lean forward to yank it on and unless you kept your hand on it in the twisted position, it would lock on, a bit of an awkward maneuver. 

Anyways, modern technologies do make life easier.

Yeah, hand brake technique doesn't work in my El Camino with the foot brake.

Works fine in old VW Bettles, though. And then modern cars don't need it.

[veeman]

Dump the Crosscrap for a real car?

I like the process of a manual transmission.  Especially now that so few people drive one.

My complaints with the Crosscrap are the manual transmission is thirsty (average 23 mpg which is shitty for a small car), it's noisy (this generation base model has poor insulation), and it has known CV joint and wheel bearing issues probably because it's basically a lifted Impreza and Subaru didn't do due diligence in designing/engineering those parts when lifting the car.

Overall though I like it.  The styling has a rugged look about it I like and I like the unique khaki color. 

[cawimmer430]

Detune your car. You're clearly packing too much horsepower. 

[veeman]

After returning from my nightshift this morning, I experimented a bit around in my driveway.  There was a little bit of ice because it was still below freezing outside. 

If I am at a full stop with my car in 1st gear and the clutch fully depressed, if I slowly let out the clutch with my right foot completely off the brake, the car does not move forward.  Not even a little bit.  It just stands there and will stall unless I give it throttle.  Maybe because I am at a slight incline and/or maybe because of the one inch of snow/ice on the ground.  I tried this a few times.  The car does not move.  When leaving my dry covered parking garage from work earlier this morning, when I slowly released the clutch in first gear with my right foot off the brake, the car did move forward, albeit rather slowly. But in my driveway in the current conditions, it does not. 

So with the car still motionless and in first gear, I very gently tap the throttle keeping the clutch half depressed.  The tach goes to 2500 rpm momentarily before settling around 1500 rpm and the car moves forward relatively smoothly without wheel spin.  Now here's where I'm having trouble.  The clutch is half depressed.  If I slowly release the clutch all the way, without giving more throttle, the car will stall.  If I slowly release the clutch all the way and slowly give more throttle at the same time, I'm way over 1500 rpm (as expected) and while doing this, I think I'm burning the clutch because I'm not releasing the clutch fast enough.  If I pop the clutch and give throttle, no burning but driving like an asshat.  What I end up doing is slowly releasing the clutch, slowly giving throttle (rpm goes to 2500 or 3000 before settling around 1500), again depressing the clutch all the way while car is slowly moving forward, when car starts to slow to a crawl again, again slowly releasing clutch half way and slowly giving more throttle, until I'm inside my garage.  Get out of car.  Mild burning smell.  Mutter F_ck. 

[MX793]

You may not be releasing the clutch slowly enough when your RPMs are low.  1500 RPM should absolutely be enough, even with an inch of snow on the ground, unless it's a pretty significant incline.

[veeman]

You may not be releasing the clutch slowly enough when your RPMs are low.  1500 RPM should absolutely be enough, even with an inch of snow on the ground, unless it's a pretty significant incline.

Sorry I didn't understand.  My clutch is half depressed and I very gently tap the throttle.  RPM goes momentarily to 2500 rpm before settling around 1500 rpm.  Are you saying at this point, I may be releasing the clutch too quick and that I should release it slower?  That by releasing the clutch slower at this point than I have been doing, I shouldn't have to give it more throttle to maintain forward movement and yet not stall. 

It's not a significant incline.  Probably around 5 degrees.   

[MX793]

With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500.  Then slowly release the clutch.  Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips.  Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly.  If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit.  Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.

[CaminoRacer]

With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500.  Then slowly release the clutch.  Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips.  Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly.  If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit.  Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.

+1

I prefer this method to the "blip the throttle constantly" method.

[veeman]

With the clutch all the way to the floor, press the accelerator to bring RPM to 1500.  Then slowly release the clutch.  Do not apply more throttle, even if RPM dips.  Bring the clutch to the friction point, then keep releasing extra slowly.  If the engine seems like it's going to stall (drops below 900 RPM), stop releasing and push the clutch back in a bit.  Basically, make the car move only by modulating the clutch.

+1

I prefer this method to the "blip the throttle constantly" method.

OK thanks!!  I will try this. 

[Morris Minor]

Another vote here for using second gear; it's the correct technique. You want that low torque, a very delicate touch, and should never spin the wheels.

[Laconian]

(takes notes)

I might've abused the clutch a couple times on the Accord

[MX793]

Another vote here for using second gear; it's the correct technique. You want that low torque, a very delicate touch, and should never spin the wheels.

2nd gear starts do work well, but only for someone who has starting without burning a clutch in 1st gear down pat.  If you are smoking the clutch trying to start in first gear, you don't have the sensitive touch required to start in 2nd without smoking a clutch (it requires more slipping than first to prevent stalling). 

I'm also not sure how necessary it is when you have AWD.  On a single driven axle (especially open diff and no TCS), yeah, it's an effective technique.

[MrH]

Starting in 2nd gear for someone who is already smoking the clutch in 1st is a bad idea.

[FoMoJo]

2nd gear starts do work well, but only for someone who has starting without burning a clutch in 1st gear down pat.  If you are smoking the clutch trying to start in first gear, you don't have the sensitive touch required to start in 2nd without smoking a clutch (it requires more slipping than first to prevent stalling). 

I'm also not sure how necessary it is when you have AWD.  On a single driven axle (especially open diff and no TCS), yeah, it's an effective technique.

I agree.  The only reason for starting in second on a slippery surface is that you get more slippage...on the clutch surfaces...when the clutch engages...more resistance...and, therefore, do not need such a delicate touch. 

Best to practice in first until you get a proper feel for it.  It's important to feel when the clutch surfaces engage and then slowly, with as few engine revs as possible, engage so that the wheels don't spin.  If the wheels starts to slip/spin, back off very slightly on the clutch pedal and try again.

[MX793]

I agree.  The only reason for starting in second on a slippery surface is that you get more slippage...on the clutch surfaces...when the clutch engages...more resistance...and, therefore, do not need such a delicate touch. 

Best to practice in first until you get a proper feel for it.  It's important to feel when the clutch surfaces engage and then slowly, with as few engine revs as possible, engage so that the wheels don't spin.  If the wheels starts to slip/spin, back off very slightly on the clutch pedal and try again.

2nd gear start reduces wheel torque, so less delicate with the throttle, but more delicate with the clutch.  Veeman is smoking his clutch in first gear on slick surfaces.  2nd gear starts are not a good idea for him at this time.  Especially with an AWD vehicle.

[CaminoRacer]

2nd gear WOT + clutch dump. Send it.

[FoMoJo]

2nd gear start reduces wheel torque, so less delicate with the throttle, but more delicate with the clutch.  Veeman is smoking his clutch in first gear on slick surfaces.  2nd gear starts are not a good idea for him at this time.  Especially with an AWD vehicle.

Yes, reduces wheel torque but more resistance on the pressure plate thus allowing less delicacy on the clutch pedal...it'll slip more and not grab as quickly.

[MX793]

Yes, reduces wheel torque but more resistance on the pressure plate thus allowing less delicacy on the clutch pedal...it'll slip more and not grab as quickly.

It results in more required slippage to get moving, which means you need to be more delicate, not less.  If you are smoking the clutch in 1st because you are giving it too many RPMs and slipping more than you should for fear of stalling, you will have worse results attempting to start in 2nd and are at much higher risk of burning the clutch.

[FoMoJo]

It results in more required slippage to get moving, which means you need to be more delicate, not less.  If you are smoking the clutch in 1st because you are giving it too many RPMs and slipping more than you should for fear of stalling, you will have worse results attempting to start in 2nd and are at much higher risk of burning the clutch.

Just saying that there is more resistance from the pressure plate so the clutch will slip more before it starts to turn the pressure plate.  This then allows for a greater travel on the clutch pedal before it grips hence, a less delicate touch required.  Of course, easier to stall the car if you're not careful on the gas pedal.  In order to do it right, you would want the lowest revs possible without stalling it.

[MX793]

Just saying that there is more resistance from the pressure plate so the clutch will slip more before it starts to turn the pressure plate.  This then allows for a greater travel on the clutch pedal before it grips hence, a less delicate touch required.  Of course, easier to stall the car if you're not careful on the gas pedal.  In order to do it right, you would want the lowest revs possible without stalling it.

The amount of travel in the clutch pedal does not change.  The pressure between the clutch plates for any given point in the pedal travel is the same regardless of gear, and therefore the friction force is the same.  Starting in a higher gear requires you spend more time with the plates slipping, and that you mete out the clutch pedal more slowly in that slipping zone and with greater care to avoid stalling.  The more slipped distance at a given plate pressure, the more wear and tear on the clutch.  2nd gear starts require more delicacy with the clutch, not less.