What do you guys think about the two? I really need to get a different car. My radiator just blew up on me this morning and it's a money pit. I'd be buying one 1-2 years old.
Grand Cherokee is more comfortable, and likely can be had cheaper.
4Runners are overpriced.
Grand Cherokee is so much more refined it's ridiculous.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 02, 2020, 10:39:32 AM
Grand Cherokee is more comfortable, and likely can be had cheaper.
4Runners are overpriced.
This!
There's a reason why 4-Runners command top dollar. They are damn near bulletproof. I wouldn't buy a Jeep (or any Chrysler-Fiat/Stellantis product) without a good warranty that includes complementary loaners.
That said, the 4Runner is not particularly refined. Great if you want to do some legit off-roading, but if you just want something with AWD/4WD for tackling snowy roads but still want refined ride quality, it's not the vehicle for you. They drive and ride like an old-school pickup truck (because, underneath, that's what they are). The GranCho is definitely a much better daily driver in terms of on-road manners and refinement, while still offering legit off-road capability, if that capability matters.
Want a 4Runner very badly
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 03, 2020, 05:36:46 PM
Want a 4Runner very badly
Always been one of my favorites.. great capability, great build quality, great residuals.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 03, 2020, 05:36:46 PM
Want a 4Runner very badly
You shouldn't... They overwhelmingly suck
I'd like to buy an older one next year. Too bad the fucking things are the best store of value known in the automotive world.
It's essentially the same damn thing my father bought in 2003... but uglier. It was only OK back then. Miserable by today's standards.
Quote from: MX793 on October 03, 2020, 10:45:24 AM
There's a reason why 4-Runners command top dollar. They are damn near bulletproof. I wouldn't buy a Jeep (or any Chrysler-Fiat/Stellantis product) without a good warranty that includes complementary loaners.
My FCA products have been light-years better than the Ford products in my family and close friends... Nothing but failed powershit transmissions, failed fusion hybrid transmissions, and ecoboost head gasket failures.
Quote from: r0tor on October 03, 2020, 05:53:33 PM
My FCA products have been light-years better than the Ford products in my family and close friends... Nothing but failed powershit transmissions, failed fusion hybrid transmissions, and ecoboost head gasket failures.
I wouldn't touch a powershift Ford even with a warranty.
That said, seen and heard far too many bad issues with Chrysler. I know people who work for companies that supply the Big 3. Chrysler is far more willing to accept parts with defects than the others.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C7 on October 03, 2020, 10:28:04 AM
This!
People tell me they're unreliable especially with the electronics and that after 75k miles, everything starts to break. I want something that's reliable, good in the snow/ice (probably top priority) but also refined/nice as I spend what seems like most of my life in a car driving around.
How do XC90s do in the snow? I've always liked them but they seem more car like. It can get nuts here with all the ice and snow, I've learned that lesson the hard way. The GX was the best but even then I crashed it on a few occasions & got stuck. Though I'm sure a large part of that is I suck at driving.
How much snow? How good is the snow removal? Are you routinely driving on roads with a 3" coating or less of snow, or are you driving down roads that regularly have more than 3" of snow? Is the snow typically light, fluffy stuff or heavy and wet? How hilly is the terrain and what type of grades (%)?
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 05, 2020, 11:58:11 AM
How do XC90s do in the snow? I've always liked them but they seem more car like. It can get nuts here with all the ice and snow, I've learned that lesson the hard way. The GX was the best but even then I crashed it on a few occasions & got stuck. Though I'm sure a large part of that is I suck at driving.
Maybe you can take some snow-driving lessons. :huh:
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 05, 2020, 11:55:32 AM
People tell me they're unreliable especially with the electronics and that after 75k miles, everything starts to break. I want something that's reliable, good in the snow/ice (probably top priority) but also refined/nice as I spend what seems like most of my life in a car driving around.
Grand Cherokee reliability is fine and great in snow
Quote from: MX793 on October 05, 2020, 12:38:54 PM
How much snow? How good is the snow removal? Are you routinely driving on roads with a 3" coating or less of snow, or are you driving down roads that regularly have more than 3" of snow? Is the snow typically light, fluffy stuff or heavy and wet? How hilly is the terrain and what type of grades (%)?
More than 3" sometimes, probably pretty wet, super hilly. :)
He lives up in the CA mountains.
The Toyota would for sure run forever. The GC would be much more comfortable. It's a tradeoff.
I love those Volvos but I haven't read anything about them. Is there even a dealer anywhere near you for maintenance??...
Get a Lexus RX. It's more your style and it should be fine in snow.
How about the Lexus NX? It may be a bit more cramped in the back if you are carrying clients though.
For wet and sloppy snow & hills, M&S or snow tires make a huge difference even with 4x4.
RX/NX awd systems are just about worthless
Quote from: r0tor on October 14, 2020, 01:27:55 PM
RX/NX awd systems are just about worthless
For rock crawling, mud bogging, or dune driving? Sure. For dealing with a few inches of snow, they're fine.
Quote from: MX793 on October 14, 2020, 01:29:56 PM
For rock crawling, mud bogging, or dune driving? Sure. For dealing with a few inches of snow, they're fine.
No
Quote from: r0tor on October 14, 2020, 07:19:47 PM
No
"Soft roader" AWD systems are more than adequate for slick roads with a couple of inches of snow and offer noticeably more forward traction than a vehicle with a single driven axle in those conditions (which, in many cases, are also capable of negotiating such conditions provided they are fitted with proper tires). Would I blaze new trails in 8"+ of freshly fallen snow? No (well, maybe, if I only need to cover a car length or so of snow that deep). Dealing with 2-3" they are absolutely fine. Some of them have the ability to lock the center coupling. My RAV has 4x4 lock and it works pretty well for digging out of deeper, heavier snow in parking lots. Or my driveway when I'm in a hurry and didn't leave time to shovel behind the car.
Quote from: r0tor on October 14, 2020, 07:19:47 PM
No
Man it has to be tough being such a connoisseur of all things automobilia. First, all manuals are crap because they're not all as good as an S2000. Now this.
They're both ancient. I guess I made my pick when I sold my 4Runner and now drive a 2020 Outback.
I'd look for barely used 2020 Outbacks.
Range Rover Discovery or Discovery Sport or wait for the new Bronco.
Quote from: MX793 on October 14, 2020, 08:48:29 PM
"Soft roader" AWD systems are more than adequate for slick roads with a couple of inches of snow and offer noticeably more forward traction than a vehicle with a single driven axle in those conditions (which, in many cases, are also capable of negotiating such conditions provided they are fitted with proper tires). Would I blaze new trails in 8"+ of freshly fallen snow? No (well, maybe, if I only need to cover a car length or so of snow that deep). Dealing with 2-3" they are absolutely fine. Some of them have the ability to lock the center coupling. My RAV has 4x4 lock and it works pretty well for digging out of deeper, heavier snow in parking lots. Or my driveway when I'm in a hurry and didn't leave time to shovel behind the car.
Up until the latest rav4 the Toyota softroader system is only capable of delivering 10-15% of full engine torque to the rear wheels and automatically disengages above 15mph.
It's crap.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 09:57:04 AM
Up until the latest rav4 the Toyota softroader system is only capable of delivering 10-15% of full engine torque to the rear wheels and automatically disengages above 15mph.
It's crap.
Perfectly fine for getting unstuck. Besides, drive wheels barely matter when driving on city streets at the speed limit.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 09:57:04 AM
Up until the latest rav4 the Toyota softroader system is only capable of delivering 10-15% of full engine torque to the rear wheels and automatically disengages above 15mph.
It's crap.
My RAV is 2-generations old ('06-'12 model)...
4x4 lock works at speeds up to 20 or 25 mph, after which it goes back to regular AWD. Not sure whether the AWD completely de-couples after a certain speed. If it does, it's at a high enough speed that I don't care or it makes no meaningful difference in day to day driving. If traction conditions are so poor that you need AWD to make it through, odds are you aren't going to be traveling more than 30 mph anyway.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 15, 2020, 10:19:35 AM
Perfectly fine for getting unstuck. Besides, drive wheels barely matter when driving on city streets at the speed limit.
Not so good for plowing through 3 foot snowbanks I imagine.
Quote from: MX793 on October 15, 2020, 10:35:29 AM
My RAV is 2-generations old ('06-'12 model)...
4x4 lock works at speeds up to 20 or 25 mph, after which it goes back to regular AWD. Not sure whether the AWD completely de-couples after a certain speed. If it does, it's at a high enough speed that I don't care or it makes no meaningful difference in day to day driving. If traction conditions are so poor that you need AWD to make it through, odds are you aren't going to be traveling more than 30 mph anyway.
Correct, it's crap
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 11:00:19 AM
Correct, it's crap
Found some data on my generation specifically. No cutoff speed given for AWD being totally disabled.
4x4 lock gives you true 4x4 up to 25 mph. After that it goes into "AWD Auto" whereby it will transfer power to the rear axle when slip is detected at the front wheels. IIRC, up to at least 50%, regardless of speed. Not sure why you think this setup is "crap" for street use. When, on the street, have you been traveling more than 30 mph and needed slam the transfer case into 4WD in a traditional 4x4?
From what I can tell, the older RAVs were similar except the earliest first generation models with A/T transmissions lacked the 4x4 lock button (it was added part way through the first generation). The first generation, when fitted with a manual gearbox, maintained a permanent 50/50 split similar to M/T Subarus.
Even left in "AWD auto", the system provides noticeably more traction than something with a single driven axle. It will shuffle at least 50% to the rear axle. This is more than enough to confidently tackle roads with a few inches of snow on them.
Your assertion that, prior to the latest model, Toyota's soft reader AWD only provided 15% torque to the rear axle, and then only at speeds under 15 mph is patently false. You get a locking center diff up to 25 mph (which is a lot faster than 15), and on demand rear axle power at speeds above that.
A lot of the auto magic-ness of these is to prevent dummies from shredding transmissions.
My 78 Subaru Wagon had a separate shifter next to the transmission, a giant "4WD" light on the dash when it was down, and big warning on the visor that driving in "4WD" on dry paved surfaces would damage the transmission.
But man that little beater with stupid low 1st gear could power up so much dirt and snow and mud in "4WD" mode.
And have I told y'all this month the spare tire was next to the carberator intake??.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 15, 2020, 05:35:05 PM
A lot of the auto magic-ness of these is to prevent dummies from shredding transmissions.
My 78 Subaru Wagon had a separate shifter next to the transmission, a giant "4WD" light on the dash when it was down, and big warning on the visor that driving in "4WD" on dry paved surfaces would damage the transmission.
But man that little beater with stupid low 1st gear could power up so much dirt and snow and mud in "4WD" mode.
And have I told y'all this month the spare tire was next to the carberator intake??.... :thumbsup:
They can be automagic without being nearly useless. Some of the Honda/Acuras have a 4wd lock that works under a certain speed. That should be a standard feature on all AWD systems.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 15, 2020, 05:45:37 PM
They can be automagic without being nearly useless. Some of the Honda/Acuras have a 4wd lock that works under a certain speed. That should be a standard feature on all AWD systems.
What does it lock?
Since the original suggestion was Lexus...
Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8
Pos highlander "lock"
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 15, 2020, 05:48:41 PM
What does it lock?
The "center" differential. I don't think the front or rear diffs will lock, but the SHAWD models have some trickery going on.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 05:49:06 PM
Since the original suggestion was Lexus...
Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8
None of this is anywhere near as relevant as you're making it out to be. Two driven axles are better than one, even if traction management on the Toyota systems is mediocre, it's better than a simple 2WD car. Benzboy's car will remain on road, and Toyota and Honda AWD systems are more than capable for giving extra assistance in bad weather.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 05:49:06 PM
Since the original suggestion was Lexus...
Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8
Video one is not a scenario anyone will ever encounter in normal street driving. Can't say I've ever tried to drive my vehicle diagonally up a loading ramp, or had reason to. It's certainly a demonstration of why said soft-roader systems are not suited to off-roading, which everyone is in agreement these systems are not designed for.
Not sure how video 2 illustrates that the system "sucks". So long as either the TCS is left on or the AWD lock is on, the vehicle is able to propel itself from a stop pretty effectively. Certainly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle on similar tires would fare.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 05:52:42 PM
Pos highlander "lock"
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU
Again, this isn't a scenario one would encounter in street driving.
I see both one front and one rear wheel spinning on the dirt slope. A proper 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and similar suspension articulation would perform no better.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 15, 2020, 05:54:30 PM
The "center" differential. I don't think the front or rear diffs will lock, but the SHAWD models have some trickery going on.
Sounds the same as my '01 Escape. It had a center differential that would lock when detecting slippage at the front, but there was also a switch that, when set to 4WD, would lock it. Only to be be used on slippery surfaces as turning would create stress between front and rear.
Had a similar setup on my '78 Bronco "part time/full time" was how it was referred to.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 05:49:06 PM
Since the original suggestion was Lexus...
Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8
Articulation ramp testing one of these is like judging the ability of a fish to ride a bicycle.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 15, 2020, 06:15:31 PM
Sounds the same as my '01 Escape. It had a center differential that would lock when detecting slippage at the front, but there was also a switch that, when set to 4WD, would lock it. Only to be be used on slippery surfaces as turning would create stress between front and rear.
Had a similar setup on my '78 Bronco "part time/full time" was how it was referred to.
IIRC, they did away with the lock button on later models. :facepalm:
Quote from: 2o6 on October 15, 2020, 06:06:18 PM
None of this is anywhere near as relevant as you're making it out to be. Two driven axles are better than one, even if traction management on the Toyota systems is mediocre, it's better than a simple 2WD car. Benzboy's car will remain on road, and Toyota and Honda AWD systems are more than capable for giving extra assistance in bad weather.
1 single wheel spinning on a system with 3 open diffs like this effectively renders the entire drivetrain useless
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 15, 2020, 07:17:22 PM
Articulation ramp testing one of these is like judging the ability of a fish to ride a bicycle.
It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels. Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels. Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow
Lose traction with one front and one rear on a "proper" 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and it's not going anywhere, either.
Quote from: MX793 on October 15, 2020, 07:41:25 PM
Lose traction with one front and one rear on a "proper" 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and it's not going anywhere, either.
Oh really... This is just a run of the mill awd
https://youtu.be/n-uAtG9gCvM
Better than average AWD...
https://youtu.be/8vjUfo05GEs
Amazing system...
https://youtu.be/X4fbNiX6BFI
The best systems out there include locking or limited slip diffs in combination with awd systems that are capable of delivering 100% of ENGINE (not "available") torque to either axel in addition to an advanced traction control system... See range rovers and some JGCs, some 4Runners, ect
A step down eliminates the diffs from above and just uses traction control. A number of decent off-roaders with minimal option packages use this... Like a JGC, Discovery, 4Runner, ect base models
Lower level systems have open diffs and awd systems with (usually) rear axels and diffs that are only rated for a fraction of the engines full torque. They can still be OK with a decent traction control system. Many cute Utes fall into this.
Total crap systems (like the Lexus) have weak awd systems that can barely send any torque to the rear combined with a disgrace of a traction control system.
Okay.
Anyways, I think an NX or RX are def worth a look, they're quiet, generally reliable, good resale, and pretty spacious for what they are. The AWD system will also help out in snow.
None of those tests in any way represent real road conditions. The only video shown that actually represents what you'd encounter on the road was the Lexus actually taking off on a slippery road, and it was fine. Significantly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle would perform. Ergo, the AWD system is not "useless". A "useless" AWD system would perform no better than a single driven axle.
Quote from: r0tor on October 15, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels. Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow
No, having two wheels with zero traction and two with rubber-on-dry-asphalt traction while driving up a 50% grade is Not in any way normal in snowy on road conditions.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 15, 2020, 08:44:25 PM
No, having two wheels with zero traction and two with rubber-on-dry-asphalt traction while driving up a 50% grade is Not in any way normal in snowy on road conditions.
Pull off the road onto a snowy shoulder
Quote from: MX793 on October 15, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
None of those tests in any way represent real road conditions. The only video shown that actually represents what you'd encounter on the road was the Lexus actually taking off on a slippery road, and it was fine. Significantly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle would perform. Ergo, the AWD system is not "useless". A "useless" AWD system would perform no better than a single driven axle.
The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"
Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains. Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 15, 2020, 07:30:53 PM
IIRC, they did away with the lock button on later models. :facepalm:
Yes.
Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 07:36:07 AM
Pull off the road onto a snowy shoulder
And you'll have reduced traction on all four wheels, not two only.
Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 07:39:44 AM
The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"
Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains. Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?
On mountain Roads: not rock crawling up them.
Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 07:39:44 AM
The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"
Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains. Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?
He never confirmed how much snow he actually deals with. He likely doesn't need "the best" all-terrain system on the market. If you're not blazing trails through really deep, heavy snow, most AWD systems are plenty adequate to get you where you're going. If you live in some remote mountain cabin that gets daily snowfall or regular heavy snowfall and the roads only get plowed 3 days a week, yeah, you need something serious. If your typical winter road only has a dusting to maybe 3" or 4" of snow on a bad day, a soft-roader AWD with good snow tires is absolutely enough.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 08:31:11 AM
He never confirmed how much snow he actually deals with. He likely doesn't need "the best" all-terrain system on the market. If you're not blazing trails through really deep, heavy snow, most AWD systems are plenty adequate to get you where you're going. If you live in some remote mountain cabin that gets daily snowfall or regular heavy snowfall and the roads only get plowed 3 days a week, yeah, you need something serious. If your typical winter road only has a dusting to maybe 3" or 4" of snow on a bad day, a soft-roader AWD with good snow tires is absolutely enough.
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be. These systems that rely on braking are crap.
JGCs have been around so long that the bugs have been ironed out, so reliability is not horrible. Plus it's being replaced for 2021 so there are deals to had on the outgoing model.
Joe, since snow is pretty much guaranteed in your area, do you have somewhere you could store winter tires? A decent set of those should offset any anxieties about whether your AWD system is rated 3 or 5 stars.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2020, 08:36:54 AM
JGCs have been around so long that the bugs have been ironed out, so reliability is not horrible. Plus it's being replaced for 2021 so there are deals to had on the outgoing model.
Joe, since snow is pretty much guaranteed in your area, do you have somewhere you could store winter tires? A decent set of those should offset any anxieties about whether your AWD system is rated 3 or 5 stars.
The design bugs are ironed out, but Chrysler's "reliability" problems are as much poor QC as they are design bugs.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be. These systems that rely on braking are crap.
AWD doesn't help you turn or stop.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 08:21:26 AM
And you'll have reduced traction on all four wheels, not two only.
Are you familiar with actual snow driving? Many times in remote areas the roads get narrow from plowing and you are forced to put the right side wheels in the snow berm to let opposing traffic through
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 08:41:02 AM
AWD doesn't help you turn or stop.
Turning and stopping is only an issue of you can first GO. Also the better the system, the more confidence you get, the slower you can go up hills and through drifts as you aren't needing to use momentum.
A GOOD awd system absolutely helps you turn. It will balance power to prevent understeer or oversteer. A heavily fwd biased awd system will not do that effectively.
Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 08:54:57 AM
Turning and stopping is only an issue of you can first GO. Also the better the system, the more confidence you get, the slower you can go up hills and through drifts as you aren't needing to use momentum.
A GOOD awd system absolutely helps you turn. It will balance power to prevent understeer or oversteer. A heavily fwd biased awd system will not do that effectively.
Point being, getting going in the first place is among the easier aspects of driving in the snow. If you are so bad at driving in the snow that simply getting moving is a problem, how well are you going to fare when you have to negotiate a slippery turn or come to a stop?
Quote from: r0tor on October 16, 2020, 08:52:45 AM
Are you familiar with actual snow driving? Many times in remote areas the roads get narrow from plowing and you are forced to put the right side wheels in the snow berm to let opposing traffic through
Umm, yeah: and that neither involves you climbing a steep grade or having diagonally opposite wheels on pavement.
Yes, some AWD systems are better than others. All of them have an advantage over regular 2WD and all of them are basically sufficient for what they were designed to do.
Its not shocking that very few are actually designed to climb out of a loading ramp at a 45 degree angle.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be. These systems that rely on braking are crap.
The system in my Land Cruiser relies on braking, as does the Disco in Rotor's goofy video.
There's more to it than that.
Furthermore, if you have to go over mountain passes heavily fwd biased systems that use traction control seriously sucks. You need a decent a mount of torque to go up a significant grade. The lousy systems out there can only deliver a fraction of engine torque to the rear so the system becomes either heavily fwd or power gets completely cut. Then add in brakes being used to clamp down tire spin on top of the previous issue - you now need to shuffle even more torque which only complicated matters. It's not uncommon for light duty systems just to overheat and divert to 100% FWD in these situations or just completely stop with not enough power to climb.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 09:02:29 AM
Point being, getting going in the first place is among the easier aspects of driving in the snow. If you are so bad at driving in the snow that simply getting moving is a problem, how well are you going to fare when you have to negotiate a slippery turn or come to a stop?
What's worse...
A dude gunning it up a hill because he is afraid of getting stuck, or someone just pussy footing it up the hill because he can do that without getting stuck?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 09:06:02 AM
The system in my Land Cruiser relies on braking, as does the Disco in Rotor's goofy video.
There's more to it than that.
Does it only rely on braking?
I'd look into a Bronco. They've got some magic going on.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 10:22:38 AM
Does it only rely on braking?
Not sure what you mean.
The 4WD is always-on through a viscous center diff, but all the traction control and stability are done through brakes.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 10:24:02 AM
I'd look into a Bronco. They've got some magic going on.
Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 16, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
There's a Bronco Sport, smaller cheaper version. Not sure of its capabilities though.
Since Benzy said he was getting a 1 of 2 year old model, he could get a Subaru Ascent. That SUV is not so trucky and has a better AWD system than the majority of other car based SUVs. Of the two he asked about, the Grand Cherokee is a great looking, very comfortable, very capable SUV. It's reliability isn't stellar but it's not Land Rover bad either.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 01:03:53 PM
Not sure what you mean.
The 4WD is always-on through a viscous center diff, but all the traction control and stability are done through brakes.
I always thought that Torsen type differentials, whether for RWD for FWD or 4WD (with a third differential in the transfer case) was ideal for best traction control. Stability control always seemed a bit excessive.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 01:49:40 PM
I always thought that Torsen type differentials, whether for RWD for FWD or 4WD (with a third differential in the transfer case) was ideal for best traction control. Stability control always seemed a bit excessive.
Torsen diffs have limitations. My Mustang has a Torsen. Great on the track, since it doesn't resist turn in under braking like a traditional limited slip. However, if one wheel has no traction, then it behaves like an open diff. For an off-road focused vehicle, they are a poor choice.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 02:09:21 PM
Torsen diffs have limitations. My Mustang has a Torsen. Great on the track, since it doesn't resist turn in under braking like a traditional limited slip. However, if one wheel has no traction, then it behaves like an open diff. For an off-road focused vehicle, they are a poor choice.
I thought that the whole purpose of a Torsen type differential was to transfer power from the wheel of least resistance.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 16, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Might be too much 4x4 truck-ness for Benz, though. I think a Grand Cherokee is a good middle ground of good looks, good driveability, bit of luxury for clients, and snow capability.
Real estate agents need something that connotes some level of professional success, but nothing excessive that hints at rapine commissions. In mountainous areas the vehicles & transmissions work really hard - so you need something that will handle that. Grand Cherokee should do that.
https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm (https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm)
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 02:23:40 PM
I thought that the whole purpose of a Torsen type differential was to transfer power from the wheel of least resistance.
An open differential delivers equal torque to both wheels. When one wheel loses traction, the torque at that wheel is greatly reduced, and so the torque delivered to the other wheel is similarly reduced. If one wheel is on an extremely slippery surface like ice, or lifted off the ground, zero torque is transmitted to the other wheel.
Torsens are designed to transfer torque from whichever wheel is spinning fastest to the wheel that is spinning slowest. The amount of transfer is some multiple of whatever torque is being delivered to the faster wheel, that multiple being determined by the torque bias setup of the particular differential. Let's say it's 2:1. So if one wheel starts to slip, the other wheel will get 2x the torque that is being delivered to the slipping wheel, whereas an open diff would only deliver 1x the torque to the slower wheel. On asphalt, where the coefficient of sliding friction is still significant, this means the other wheel will get a decent amount of torque delivered to it. On ice, or if a wheel is completely lifted off the ground, the torque that would be delivered to that wheel is basically 0 and 2x 0 is 0. The vehicle won't move and the tire with no grip just spins.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2020, 02:31:01 PM
Real estate agents need something that connotes some level of professional success, but nothing excessive that hints at rapine commissions. In mountainous areas the vehicles & transmissions work really hard - so you need something that will handle that. Grand Cherokee should do that.
https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm (https://www.victorvillemotors.com/certified/Jeep/2020-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-cc63dbdc0a0e0a17792980216757e564.htm)
The Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus twin are classic RE agent vehicles. I think Benzboi used to have the Lexus one.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 02:44:11 PM
An open differential delivers equal torque to both wheels. When one wheel loses traction, the torque at that wheel is greatly reduced, and so the torque delivered to the other wheel is similarly reduced. If one wheel is on an extremely slippery surface like ice, or lifted off the ground, zero torque is transmitted to the other wheel.
Torsens are designed to transfer torque from whichever wheel is spinning fastest to the wheel that is spinning slowest. The amount of transfer is some multiple of whatever torque is being delivered to the faster wheel, that multiple being determined by the torque bias setup of the particular differential. Let's say it's 2:1. So if one wheel starts to slip, the other wheel will get 2x the torque that is being delivered to the slipping wheel, whereas an open diff would only deliver 1x the torque to the slower wheel. On asphalt, where the coefficient of sliding friction is still significant, this means the other wheel will get a decent amount of torque delivered to it. On ice, or if a wheel is completely lifted off the ground, the torque that would be delivered to that wheel is basically 0 and 2x 0 is 0. The vehicle won't move and the tire with no grip just spins.
That doesn't make sense. If one wheel is off the ground, the wheel that is on the ground, the one with potential grip, will still have whatever measure of torque delivered to it whether the bias ration is whether it's 2:1, 3:1 or 5:1.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 03:25:10 PM
That doesn't make sense. If one wheel is off the ground, the wheel that is on the ground, the one with potential grip, will still have whatever measure of torque delivered to it whether the bias ration is whether it's 2:1, 3:1 or 5:1.
Think of an open diff as a Torsen with a 1:1 torque bias. If one wheel is aloft and the other grounded, the car doesn't move. The grounded wheel will get the same torque as is required to turn the lofted wheel. For the sake of argument, let's say that the friction in the driveline means it takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel. The grounded wheel gets 1 ft-lb, not enough to move the car.
Now, say we have a Torsen with a 3:1 bias. It takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel, so the grounded wheel gets 3 ft-lb of torque. Still not enough to propel the vehicle.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 03:43:09 PM
Think of an open diff as a Torrent with a 1:1 torque bias. If one wheel is aloft and the other grounded, the car doesn't move. The grounded wheel will get the same torque as is required to turn the lofted wheel. For the sake of argument, let's say that the friction in the driveline means it takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel. The grounded wheel gets 1 ft-lb, not enough to move the car.
Now, say we have a Torsen with a 3:1 bias. It takes 1 ft-lb to spin the lofted wheel, so the grounded wheel gets 3 ft-lb of torque. Still not enough to propel the vehicle.
On ice, it would work, with controlled throttle. Applying the brake moderately, with one wheel suspended, would increase the torque.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
On ice, it would work, with controlled throttle. Applying the brake moderately, with one wheel suspended, would increase the torque.
Yes, if you apply the brake to the free wheel, you will transfer torque to the wheel with traction. This is true of an open diff as well. The Torsen will transfer more to the brake torque than the open diff. But absent a TCS system, Torsen behaves like an open diff when one wheel has no traction.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2020, 03:53:33 PM
Yes, if you apply the brake to the free wheel, you will transfer torque to the wheel with traction. This is true of an open diff as well. The Torsen will transfer more to the brake torque than the open diff. But absent a TCS system, Torsen behaves like an open diff when one wheel has no traction.
You would apply the brake to all wheels.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
You would apply the brake to all wheels.
Applying the brake to all wheels increases the torque required to move the vehicle. And if we're talking about a RWD vehicle, the front brakes are much stronger than the rears.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 16, 2020, 03:02:07 PM
The Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus twin are classic RE agent vehicles. I think Benzboi used to have the Lexus one.
He had the GX, not the LX. Which is a Land Cruiser, but not one we get.
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
I was about a foot or two from crashing into a bear about 10 min away from my house. :facepalm: They're so oblivious to humans & human activity..or more likely they do notice but are so used to it that they just don't give a shit. One time I saw two just chilling in the middle of the road; I stopped, they didn't move and only did when I just blared on my horn for 20 seconds & finally ran off into the forest.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 16, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
He admits to being a lousy driver so the more help he gets traction wise, the safer he'll be. These systems that rely on braking are crap.
It depends on the year but it can be quite a bit. It also tends to come all at once & then it gets colder after the storm itself and sticks around for a while....especially on my side of the lake which is shadier and more snowy. Also all of the shops and crap are on this side so it's a challenge. One of the issues is the county doesn't plow the roads very well and beyond that the terrain is 95% sloped here. The Outback was good in the ice but once the snow started to accumulate, it was game over. I 'high centered' it quite a bit. My friends who grew up here know how to handle that a lot better than me but I haven't figured it out. The Subaru also wasn't good at going through snow berms which take a while to shovel out as after a while it's like a block of ice due to the high water content. With the Lexus I'd shovel it a little then blow right through them, it was awesome. :lol:
Sometimes when it gets intense I just don't even bother driving and will walk to the little market around the corner.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
I was about a foot or two from crashing into a bear about 10 min away from my house. :facepalm: They're so oblivious to humans & human activity..or more likely they do notice but are so used to it that they just don't give a shit. One time I saw two just chilling in the middle of the road; I stopped, they didn't move and only did when I just blared on my horn for 20 seconds & finally ran off into the forest.
GX460?
Yeah. 2018 with 22k miles. It was a pretty good deal actually and the 4Runners are surprisingly expensive so Clay was saying just get the GX and it was a good suggestion. I love it.
I'm not too much of an expert but I'm not sure why somebody would pay more and get the LX. This one is big enough as it is and seems to me they're more similar than different. I didn't drive one but I do notice a lot more GXs than LXs.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_8729.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JoeRealtor/p/194644f6-1f85-433f-bb40-b050acd70113)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_8732.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JoeRealtor/p/07ae2250-6388-4993-ad10-d91804f54fb8)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_8733.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JoeRealtor/p/17471037-21e7-4f89-85f6-306a4a44dc17)
That was this year, mid April. Granted that's unusual for that time of year but it can snow in April/May...but that's what can happen during the colder months. This past season on Thanksgiving & Christmas Day it snowed like 3 feet each in one or two days. Trees falling, power outages for days, car crashes all over the place...it was a mess.
The real estate pitch to people from LA/OC or the desert is change your whole environment in about 90 minutes. :lol: And it's certainly true.
Nice car. Hope it does the job in the Winter.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 17, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
Nice car. Hope it does the job in the Winter.
There won't be many vehicles better at any price.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 17, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
Nice car. Hope it does the job in the Winter.
Well it's got me to contend with so we'll see.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
I was about a foot or two from crashing into a bear about 10 min away from my house. :facepalm: They're so oblivious to humans & human activity..or more likely they do notice but are so used to it that they just don't give a shit. One time I saw two just chilling in the middle of the road; I stopped, they didn't move and only did when I just blared on my horn for 20 seconds & finally ran off into the forest.
Sweet :cheers:
Very nice. Bring it to Moab and off road it with me
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 17, 2020, 05:30:08 PM
Very nice. Bring it to Moab and off road it with me
Maybe! I haven't been out there in years, it's awesome. Like a different planet.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2020, 05:32:35 PM
He had the GX, not the LX. Which is a Land Cruiser, but not one we get.
I always thought the GX was based on the 4Runner and the LX on the Land Cruiser?
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 06:04:07 PM
I always thought the GX was based on the 4Runner and the LX on the Land Cruiser?
The GX is based on the Land Cruiser Prado, a smaller model we don't get here. The model we call the Land Cruiser is sold elsewhere as the Land Cruiser Amazon.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 17, 2020, 05:30:08 PM
Very nice. Bring it to Moab and off road it with me
+1
I'll bring my 2WD open dif Jeep.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 17, 2020, 07:02:05 PM
+1
I'll bring my 2WD open dif Jeep.
I'll have a rental RZR 1000
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 17, 2020, 09:35:07 PM
I'll have a rental RZR 1000
What's that, a crotch rocket?
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Nice!!!
There is a spot where dozens and dozens of Canada geese liked to waddle across the road instead of just fly. (Lots of grass on one side, pond on the other). And they'd go really slow, lots of people would stop and traffic gets backed up. I just creep into their stupid procession and they scurry across.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 17, 2020, 06:05:39 PM
The GX is based on the Land Cruiser Prado, a smaller model we don't get here. The model we call the Land Cruiser is sold elsewhere as the Land Cruiser Amazon.
There were lots of Land Cruiser Prados knocking around Iceland - manuals w/ 4-cyl diesels.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 18, 2020, 12:41:47 PM
There were lots of Land Cruiser Prados knocking around Iceland - manuals w/ 4-cyl diesels.
And I wish we could get them here.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 18, 2020, 02:56:39 PM
And I wish we could get them here.
Why don't we get them? I guess maybe the manual transmission.
Congratulations on your new car Benz Boy! It's interesting you say they're kinda common where you are. They're not that common around here in the Northeast U.S. A rare bird sighting here.
That's a nice looking SUV, congrats!
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 18, 2020, 07:21:25 PM
Why don't we get them? I guess maybe the manual transmission.
Manual and diesel.
I'd actually settle for a lower trim level Prado with an automatic and the 4.6. I just think we need more than the luxury spec Lexus for that model.
Another one we can't get here that I thought was quite tasty..
in SE Asia, the Toyota Fortuner; it's a HiLux with an SUV body. Again a 4-cyl diesel manual - decent room, pleasant interior, great A/C, but tough as old boots for the shitty roads.
Channeling the body-on-frame Ford Explorers of years-gone-by.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Nice! Congratulations. Perfect for you and the job.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 19, 2020, 01:49:47 PM
Nice! Congratulations. Perfect for you and the job.
:hesaid:
Also, Benz mentioned elsewhere that they're getting a different, more affluent clientele as LA folks leave the city for pandemic palaces. THis car is really good for playing to the image-conscious SoCal crowd.
Hell yea, that's awesome man. I'd love one of those
Quote from: Laconian on October 19, 2020, 02:40:29 PM
:hesaid:
Also, Benz mentioned elsewhere that they're getting a different, more affluent clientele as LA folks leave the city for pandemic palaces. THis car is really good for playing to the image-conscious SoCal crowd.
Yup. Nice but not in-your-face nice like a top-end Porsche or something. :lol: And that Toyota reliability!!! My first Toyota minivan was the 3.3L motor they had been putting into the Lexus R330 I believe (2004 Sienna).
4runner.
Never buy a Chrysler product.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
I was about a foot or two from crashing into a bear about 10 min away from my house. :facepalm: They're so oblivious to humans & human activity..or more likely they do notice but are so used to it that they just don't give a shit. One time I saw two just chilling in the middle of the road; I stopped, they didn't move and only did when I just blared on my horn for 20 seconds & finally ran off into the forest.
I do like those too. I wish they sold a Toyota badged version in the US market.
Quote from: veeman on October 19, 2020, 01:09:33 AM
Congratulations on your new car Benz Boy! It's interesting you say they're kinda common where you are. They're not that common around here in the Northeast U.S. A rare bird sighting here.
They're not too common where I am in Arrowhead but what I was referring to was just in general when I'm off the mountain. I see a lot more GXs vs. LXs.
Quote from: Lebowski on October 22, 2020, 02:04:01 PM
4runner.
Never buy a Chrysler product.
Yeah that's what people told me. Which is a bummer because when I drove my client's Grand Cherokee , I really liked it.
Quote from: Laconian on October 19, 2020, 02:40:29 PM
:hesaid:
Also, Benz mentioned elsewhere that they're getting a different, more affluent clientele as LA folks leave the city for pandemic palaces. THis car is really good for playing to the image-conscious SoCal crowd.
Yeah it's good for clients and such. It also strikes me as a good value for what you get really & I plan on keeping it a long time too.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 22, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
I plan on keeping it a long time too.
It's good you didn't buy the Jeep, then!
Quote from: Laconian on October 22, 2020, 04:07:39 PM
It's good you didn't buy the Jeep, then!
...Mine is 10 years old...
Quote from: Laconian on October 22, 2020, 04:07:39 PM
It's good you didn't buy the Jeep, then!
I almost did. I spent a little time with a friend the other week up in Big Bear and he said he'd never talk to me again if I got one. He was joking but he felt pretty strongly about it and I finally listened to him. He's a lot more mechanically and practically inclined than I am.
From Wikipedia below.
"All GX production has occurred at the Tahara plant in Japan, alongside the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and the export-minded Toyota 4Runner. Both generations of the GX have been heavily based on the Prado and 4Runner, with updated frontal styling to better integrate with the Lexus lineup "
So the GX, Prado, and 4Runner, all three, are all on the same bones? I'd thought the 4Runner was older and clunker.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 23, 2020, 09:06:51 PM
From Wikipedia below.
"All GX production has occurred at the Tahara plant in Japan, alongside the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and the export-minded Toyota 4Runner. Both generations of the GX have been heavily based on the Prado and 4Runner, with updated frontal styling to better integrate with the Lexus lineup "
So the GX, Prado, and 4Runner, all three, are all on the same bones? I'd thought the 4Runner was older and clunker.
All three are on the same body on frame platform.
Nothing like being suckered into mega $$$ for a 20 year old design
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2020, 07:40:27 AM
Nothing like being suckered into mega $$$ for a 20 year old design
:wanker:
Considering the Toyotas of 20 years ago are still superior to Chrysler's of today I don't really see what his point is.
Quote from: Lebowski on October 24, 2020, 08:26:43 AM
Considering the Toyotas of 20 years ago are still superior to Chrysler's of today I don't really see what his point is.
No what way? Worse engine, transmission, chassis, interior design, room, and fuel economy?
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2020, 08:48:15 AM
No what way? Worse engine, transmission, chassis, interior design, room, and fuel economy?
Build quality, reliability, resale value, and looks. It's been awhile since I've been in a JGC but I believe you are wrong as far as interior design and room I remember them being quite cramped inside by comparison.
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2020, 08:48:15 AM
No what way? Worse engine, transmission, chassis, interior design, room, and fuel economy?
New ones are pretty comparable, and more or less down to subjective preferences; unless one really needs one of the higher powered Jeeps, or a three row Toyota.
At 10 years old? Toyota is the clear winner.
At 20 it becomes a question mark again, as the Jeep will have had most of its big parts replaced by that point.
Quote from: Lebowski on October 24, 2020, 08:50:41 AM
Build quality, reliability, resale value, and looks. It's been awhile since I've been in a JGC but I believe you are wrong as far as interior design and room I remember them being quite cramped inside by comparison.
Compared to the JGC, the 4Runner has 6" less legroom in the 2nd row. That's massive It also looks like crap compared to the JGC... That's subjective, but it severely shows it's 15year old roots.
The 4Runner has less power and less fuel mileage thanks to it's ancient power train. It rides and handles substantially worse thanks to it's suspension and chassis. Maybe it has a slight advantage off-road with a solid rear axel - I don't think you are going to find evidence of a 4Runner going any further than a Trailhawk can go though.
You can also get JGC cheaper than a 4Runner or with substantially more performance if that's your thing.
I would love to buy brand new versions of many 20 year old cars. :huh:
I would buy a brand new 2001 Cherokee, Integra, Civic, etc
Quote from: r0tor on October 22, 2020, 06:53:21 PM
...Mine is 10 years old...
Have you forgotten?
https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223 (https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223)
Quote from: r0tor on January 12, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
4 years old... Blown shock replaced a few months ago - took 2 weeks to find a shock due to availability. Something intermittent in the brake system is going wrong. Half, yes half, the engine has an extended warranty because engines are popping left and right... Coworker just had his done. More recalls then I can keep track of - and of course Chrysler won't offer any rental to fix them so its always up to you to make it work.
Fuck chrysler
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
Compared to the JGC, the 4Runner has 6" less legroom in the 2nd row. That's massive It also looks like crap compared to the JGC... That's subjective, but it severely shows it's 15year old roots.
The 4Runner has less power and less fuel mileage thanks to it's ancient power train. It rides and handles substantially worse thanks to it's suspension and chassis. Maybe it has a slight advantage off-road with a solid rear axel - I don't think you are going to find evidence of a 4Runner going any further than a Trailhawk can go though.
You can also get JGC cheaper than a 4Runner or with substantially more performance if that's your thing.
Well, IMO SUVs in general looked better 15-20 yrs ago than today so I don't see the older styling as a negative. IMO JGCs don't look very good when new and age horribly in terms of looks. 4runners in contrast only look better with age as each successive generation is worse looking than the last (but still look pretty good compared to the alternatives).
4runner has more than enough rear legroom for my needs so I don't see adding to this dimension as a big plus for me. It has significantly more cargo volume than the JGC. I don't care all that much about power or gas mileage in an SUV. An updated powertrain would be nice but I really don't care all that much.
At the end of the day, if gas mileage and on road refinement were higher priorities for me and I was ok with the smaller cargo volume of the JGC, I'd buy a CRV over a JGC all day long. It Toyota stopped making the 4runner tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy a JGC over the remaining choices. As I said before - I'd never buy a Chrysler.
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
Compared to the JGC, the 4Runner has 6" less legroom in the 2nd row. That's massive It also looks like crap compared to the JGC... That's subjective, but it severely shows it's 15year old roots.
The 4Runner has less power and less fuel mileage thanks to it's ancient power train. It rides and handles substantially worse thanks to it's suspension and chassis. Maybe it has a slight advantage off-road with a solid rear axel - I don't think you are going to find evidence of a 4Runner going any further than a Trailhawk can go though.
You can also get JGC cheaper than a 4Runner or with substantially more performance if that's your thing.
It has less legroom in the rear; when equipped with a third row, which isn't available in the GC at any price.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2020, 11:23:21 AM
I would love to buy brand new versions of many 20 year old cars. :huh:
I would buy a brand new 2001 Cherokee, Integra, Civic, etc
So would I.
It seems more and more that there was a peak of sorts in the early 2000s and late '90s.
Quote from: MX793 on October 24, 2020, 11:29:42 AM
Have you forgotten?
https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223 (https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223)
:lol:!
Quote from: MX793 on October 24, 2020, 11:29:42 AM
Have you forgotten?
https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223 (https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=31305.msg2083223#msg2083223)
Ironically, it's been perfect for the 6 years ever since. It should also be noted my JGC is among the first built on the WK2 platform.
My father's is a few years newer and has been flawless. His 4Runner he sold it from never found a set of rear brake rotors it wouldn't warp and the 4WD actuator repeatedly got stuck and would fail to engage.
Quote from: r0tor on January 12, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
Fuck chrysler
This might be the most intelligent thing you've ever said.
Quote from: Lebowski on October 24, 2020, 11:55:13 AM
...I'd buy a CRV over a JGC all day long.
The CR-V's DI 1.5T is the turd in the punchbowl of an otherwise decent CUV.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 17, 2020, 01:34:39 PM
I ended up getting neither. Picked up this last night:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/JoeRealtor/IMG_1289.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
I was about a foot or two from crashing into a bear about 10 min away from my house. :facepalm: They're so oblivious to humans & human activity..or more likely they do notice but are so used to it that they just don't give a shit. One time I saw two just chilling in the middle of the road; I stopped, they didn't move and only did when I just blared on my horn for 20 seconds & finally ran off into the forest.
Looks nice. What is it? All these SUVs look the same to me.
GX460
I've barely even driven it, been out of town for two weeks. Can't wait to get back. :lol:
It's also supposed to snow (lightly) this upcoming weekend so we'll see how it does if the snow ends up being heavier than expected. Rarely is it what they forecast.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 03, 2020, 04:42:36 PM
I've barely even driven it, been out of town for two weeks. Can't wait to get back. :lol:
It's also supposed to snow (lightly) this upcoming weekend so we'll see how it does if the snow ends up being heavier than expected. Rarely is it what they forecast.
Hopefully you have snow tires.
Quote from: FoMoJo on November 03, 2020, 04:48:50 PM
Hopefully you have snow tires.
Not sure what sort of tires they are but I'll check. I doubt they're snow tires as I bought the car in Orange County.
The existing tires look pretty meaty.
What do you think about snow vs all season tires?
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 03, 2020, 10:45:52 PM
The existing tires look pretty meaty.
What do you think about snow vs all season tires?
Big difference. Snows use a different type of rubber which stays sticky when it's below freezing. ASRs get hard.
We got CrossClimates for our Outback. They're snows that you can drive year-round.
Yeah for wet snow, dedicated snow tires make a huge difference.
For the dry powder here in UT, I've managed with all seasons.
Quote from: Speed_Racer on November 04, 2020, 02:23:04 PM
Yeah for wet snow, dedicated snow tires make a huge difference.
For the dry powder here in UT, I've managed with all seasons.
There has been 1 day when I probably could have used snows here in UT. 5-6 inches of heavy wet snow on the east bench and I had to get up a hill. From what I remember, I made it up, but really I probably should have just stayed home that morning anyway.
I have never wishes for snow tires on my Jeep
My first snow/ice driving in the car was not good. I was going down a somewhat moderate/gentle slope and I think I hit the brakes too hard and was sliding around and almost flew off the road into the forest. It was scary. I noticed it slipped a bit in other areas and the tires are clearly not winter ones (I've ordered them) but I think also it was my driving. I also wasn't in a lower gear going into the slope. When it is wintery it'll vary between snow and then at times we'll get 'graupel' which is essentially a different form of hail and basically ice. So that combined with the topography makes it challenging.
After that I just went home and didn't drive until the storm blew over. I tried out the Subaru the day after but on that one the tires are not winter ones either.
I've never gotten the hang of winter driving and probably never will. With the past Lexus I slid off the road and hit a snow bank at a relatively low rate of speed but the car was so durable that it just kept going. Like bumper cars. :lol:
If you are nervous in the winter weather just get winter/snow tires. I got in the habit when I lived in Canada but still do it now that I am living in NJ. It is really helpful in the snow, but its also better just in general in below freezing temps. The advantage of using winter tires is that I also get to use dedicated summer tires in the spring/summer/fall, which also perform better than all-seasons at those times.
If you are completely mechanically disinclined you can get a local shop to switch them over for you (this is what I did when I lived in an apartment in Montreal). But if you have a basement or garage to keep the extra wheels in one of the simplest things you can do on a car is switch the wheels. This would mean just getting an extra set of dedicate winter wheels to go along with the winter tires.
Yeah that's what I'm going to do. I got some good ones coming in and then I'll take the current ones and stash them at my friends house.
Just take it much much easier when it's slippery out! You can NOT rush things! Physics are physics, you wouldn't try to run full speed on an ice skating rink in flip flops. ;)
Go practice snow and ice driving in a big emtpy parking lot
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 12, 2020, 07:05:00 PM
Yeah that's what I'm going to do. I got some good ones coming in and then I'll take the current ones and stash them at my friends house.
Does the GX have any kind of winter driving setting/option on the transmission?
I was serious about practicing
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 16, 2020, 05:15:03 AM
Does the GX have any kind of winter driving setting/option on the transmission?
Yeah it has a 4 low option. I should have had it in that when I went down the hill....on my way back I put it in that & went down a steeper hill with no problem.
I have a "snowflake" option on my Discovery Sport. Haven't tried it yet.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 16, 2020, 06:35:41 AM
I was serious about practicing
I've driven quite a bit in the snow so not sure that'd make much difference. A lot of it is the tires....I ended up going with these in the end:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Wrangler+DuraTrac
Haven't put them on yet as now it seems we're in a dry period but once the weather turns I'll change them out. The existing ones have quite a bit of life left on them so I can use them next summer.
Overall though, it's an awesome car. The gas milage is awful but other than that I love it. I'm glad I went with this one as opposed to the older GX, even though I really liked that one too.
Quote from: FoMoJo on November 23, 2020, 06:41:56 PM
I have a "snowflake" option on my Discovery Sport. Haven't tried it yet.
It makes your Discovery into a safe space.
Quote from: Laconian on November 23, 2020, 06:43:13 PM
It makes your Discovery into a safe space.
I prefer being "on the edge." I may try using "Sport" mode during the next ice storm.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 23, 2020, 06:42:02 PM
I've driven quite a bit in the snow so not sure that'd make much difference. A lot of it is the tires....I ended up going with these in the end:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Wrangler+DuraTrac
Haven't put them on yet as now it seems we're in a dry period but once the weather turns I'll change them out. The existing ones have quite a bit of life left on them so I can use them next summer.
Overall though, it's an awesome car. The gas milage is awful but other than that I love it. I'm glad I went with this one as opposed to the older GX, even though I really liked that one too.
It makes a yoooooooge difference. A new vehicle or new tires changes everything.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 23, 2020, 06:38:21 PM
Yeah it has a 4 low option. I should have had it in that when I went down the hill....on my way back I put it in that & went down a steeper hill with no problem.
4-Low is literally for walking-speed crawling. On slippery roads, it would be better to just shift the transmission into 1st (in 4-High)