I was about an hour behind this crash, and when I drove by it I was screaming. Bike parts were strewn for about half a mile, it was horrible. And I saw ANOTHER truck driver asleep behind the wheel on the same drive!
http://wtvr.com/2015/07/17/virginia-bikers-involved-in-horrific-i-85-wreck/ (http://wtvr.com/2015/07/17/virginia-bikers-involved-in-horrific-i-85-wreck/)
I get that they are under deadlines but Jesus Christ man.
Holy shit. I feel horrible for the bikers, but then again, why were they sitting on the side of the highway? The shoulder is for emergencies only, not for taking a break.
And computers have other fallacies, so I'm not quite sure what your point is with the thread title.
As long as truckers are paid by the mile, and as long as trucking companies continue the unofficial policy of looking the other way when it comes to hours of service rules, then truckers are going to push themselves until its unsafe to do so.
Nasty, nasty accident. If there is any place where automated vehicles do make sense, its for commercial traffic on a limited access highway.
Quote from: thecarnut on July 17, 2015, 09:11:14 PM
Holy shit. I feel horrible for the bikers, but then again, why were they sitting on the side of the highway? The shoulder is for emergencies only, not for taking a break.
And computers have other fallacies, so I'm not quite sure what your point is with the thread title.
I don't think we know why they were there. it may have been an emergency (and sometimes on a bike- wholly shit my ass is falling asleep is indeed an emergency)
Can't blame the bikers...doesn't matter why they're on the side of the road. Trucker was out of his lane. I used to be against mandatory limits for number of hours a big rig could be operated by any one person. But a lot of people get squashed by truckers who fall asleep.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 17, 2015, 09:20:47 PM
I don't think we know why they were there. it may have been an emergency (and sometimes on a bike- wholly shit my ass is falling asleep is indeed an emergency)
From the article linked in the article that Sporty linked:
"Officials said six motorcycles from out-of-state were parked on the side of the road taking a break when a tractor-trailer hit them."
http://myfox8.com/2015/07/17/crews-responding-to-wreck-involving-tractor-trailer-and-motorcycle-on-i-85-in-greensboro/ (http://myfox8.com/2015/07/17/crews-responding-to-wreck-involving-tractor-trailer-and-motorcycle-on-i-85-in-greensboro/)
Make no mistake, I'm not saying the bikers were at fault at all, and yes, something has to be done about preventing accidents like this, but the best course of prevention would have been to not take a break on the side of an interstate in the first place. Obviously if you have an emergency, then you have to stop, but if you're taking a break, you probably shouldn't just pull to the shoulder.
One should never, ever stop on the side of a freeway by choice. NEVER.
My estimate is at least ~20% (1 in 5) of drivers at any one time are either DUI or distracted/drowsy. I see it every time I'm on the freeway - people drift out their lanes all the time.
This problem, or this crash however, are not in any way justification for automated vehicles, and the horror that is needed to enable them.
The primary problem with US road safety is lax punishments for legit bad driving (actually causing an accident). Rather, the establishment focuses energy on things that don't matter (primarily, non material speeding). Sad.
Oh, I spent many the night soundly asleep on the side of the freeway.
Of course, the vehicle I was sleeping in weighed 44,000 lbs empty...
Motorcycles "taking breaks" on the highway here drives me nuts. There are towns every 20miles. There are rest areas every 2 hours.
Then the bikers expect the entire universe to stop and wait for them to merge back onto the freeway as a group. One gang even had a trail vehicle blocking both lanes real slow as they merged back in.
-then I stopped for gas and they did it again.... Traffic was backed up (but moving) for a mile or more behind that obnoxiousness.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 17, 2015, 08:45:53 PM
I get that they are under deadlines but Jesus Christ man.
There needs to seriously be better laws about professional drivers
Stopping on the shoulder is very dangerous and should be reserved for emergencies only. And, looking at the map, there were plenty of much safer places to pull over for a rest. That section of 85 has several exits per mile. They could have pulled off the highway at any one of them and stopped at a gas station or fast food joint or shopping center parking lot to stretch their legs or whatever. It's not like they were on a desolate stretch of interstate with no exits or rest stops for 50 or 100 miles. They were literally a minute away from multiple safe places to stop.
They def could have pulled off into a town, that is very true. Still, could have been a break down, or someone with a flat, or some other unavoidable shoulder exit. But yea they share some of the blame too.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 18, 2015, 07:44:01 AM
They def could have pulled off into a town, that is very true. Still, could have been a break down, or someone with a flat, or some other unavoidable shoulder exit. But yea they share some of the blame too.
Yeah, having an actual breakdown would have been bad luck. There's nothing you can really do at that point but pull over.
I was driving home late on Saturday night - empty rural stretch of I-85 in Georgia - & I suddenly came up behind a truck, like it appeared out of nowhere. His trailer was unlit - no marker lights, so he was practically invisible, & he was going slow relative to my 70mph. Definitely one of those 'holy fuck!' moments.
Sad. That truck would have destroyed cars, too. Riding on the freeway requires the ability to anticipate other people's moves and think about what may happen. Very stressful. Don't dig it at all. Back roads are way better.
Quote from: veeman on July 17, 2015, 09:31:03 PM
Can't blame the bikers...doesn't matter why they're on the side of the road.
Well, yeah, actually you can. According to the NCDOT "Parking on highways is prohibited." The shoulder is considered part of the highway. Of course the trucker was in the wrong but the bikers were stupid for putting themselves in harms way like that.
In fact in June the NCDPS issued the following:
State Highway Patrol Increasing Their Focus on Vehicles Parked on Interstate Highways
RALEIGH – The State Highway Patrol will be stepping up its enforcement on illegally-stopped vehicles along North Carolina's Interstate Highways in an effort to save lives and increase safety for the motoring public. During the last five years, nearly 20 percent of all fatalities on interstate highways involved a motor vehicle stopped on the shoulder.
In an effort to decrease the collision rate, the Highway Patrol is partnering with the Department of Transportation and the N.C. Trucking Association to insure that drivers do not stop on the shoulder of the interstates unless an emergency situation occurs. Troopers will closely monitor the interstates to include entrance and exit ramps and emergency lanes in an effort to remove the hazard of vehicles sitting alongside the roadway.
"With the increased traffic volume across the state, it is imperative that we keep our highways free of roadside hazards to include improperly parked vehicles," said Colonel Bill Grey, commander of the State Highway Patrol.
North Carolina law makes it unlawful for any motorist to stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle, whether attended or unattended, on any part or portion of the right-of-way of said highway, except in the case of an emergency or as directed by a law enforcement officer, or at designated parking areas.
Motorists are encouraged to plan their travels to insure they have sufficient and safe rest points along their route.
For more information, email at Michael.D.Baker@ncdps.gov.
###
Contact: Sgt. Michael Baker
Date: June 3, 2015
Phone: (919) 733-5027
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 18, 2015, 08:33:59 AM
I was driving home late on Saturday night - empty rural stretch of I-85 in Georgia - & I suddenly came up behind a truck, like it appeared out of nowhere. His trailer was unlit - no marker lights, so he was practically invisible, & he was going slow relative to my 70mph. Definitely one of those 'holy fuck!' moments.
I know the feeling. One night on a two lane road in Texas in 1970 I came around a curve doing the speed limit and almost rear ended a horse drawn wagon that was legally using the road since they had a red lantern on the back of the wagon.
Quote from: CLKid on July 18, 2015, 11:33:20 AM
Well, yeah, actually you can. According to the NCDOT "Parking on highways is prohibited."
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There's degrees of wrong. Yeah it wasn't smart of them and illegal, but I doubt the surviving bikers will get cited. The trucker fell asleep or was distracted in some other way and he will be the one cited for involuntary vehicular homicide or something like that.
When I need to pull over on the highway, I go way past the shoulder and probably 10 feet into the grass. I'm sure that's illegal too but if someone hits me, they're at fault.
Quote from: veeman on July 18, 2015, 03:15:40 PM
There's degrees of wrong. Yeah it wasn't smart of them and illegal, but I doubt the surviving bikers will get cited. The trucker fell asleep or was distracted in some other way and he will be the one cited for involuntary vehicular homicide or something like that.
When I need to pull over on the highway, I go way past the shoulder and probably 10 feet into the grass. I'm sure that's illegal too but if someone hits me, they're at fault.
If you breakdown and are on the shoulder you are there legally, but you are just as much in harm's way as if you pulled over to take a smoke break. Like you, if I'm on the shoulder I'm as far over to the right as I can get.
My rule number 1. I don't willingly put my self in harm's way.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 18, 2015, 07:44:01 AM
They def could have pulled off into a town, that is very true. Still, could have been a break down, or someone with a flat, or some other unavoidable shoulder exit. But yea they share some of the blame too.
There ya go. Blaming the victim again I see.
Quote from: CLKid on July 18, 2015, 04:24:31 PM
If you breakdown and are on the shoulder you are there legally, but you are just as much in harm's way as if you pulled over to take a smoke break. Like you, if I'm on the shoulder I'm as far over to the right as I can get.
My rule number 1. I don't willingly put my self in harm's way.
+1. I don't stop on the shoulder of an interstate/limited-access highway unless either I, a passenger, or my vehicle are completely incapable of making it to the next rest area or exit.
Additionally, based on the news footage and a map (Sporty can correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like they're just past where Rt 29 passes over 85 at the 85/73/70 interchange), it looks like they were parked on the right shoulder where the road was making a left-hand bend, so they were parked at the outside of the turn. This makes stopping on the shoulder even worse. If somebody does fall asleep at the wheel or is distracted and fails to negotiate a bend in the road, they will always drift to the outside of the turn. On a left-hand bend, that means the right shoulder. 4 miles before where this occurred there was an exit to a little commercial area with restaurants, a Wal-mart, etc where they could have safely pulled into a parking lot to stretch their legs with easy access back onto the interstate. 7 miles further up the road there is another exit with a truck stop where they could have safely stopped to rest (exits in between are interchanges with other major interstates/highways). There was little reason to stop right there on the shoulder to rest if it was only to rest and stretch legs. Even if they just had to stop on the shoulder because they couldn't make it to the next exit, they chose a really poor spot to do so given the bend in the road. They could have traveled a little further (half a mile) to a spot where the road was at least straight which, while still dangerously parked on the shoulder, would have been safer than where they chose to stop.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 18, 2015, 07:44:01 AM
They def could have pulled off into a town, that is very true. Still, could have been a break down, or someone with a flat, or some other unavoidable shoulder exit. But yea they share some of the blame too.
:hammerhead:
That's like blaming rape victims for being alone in a bad neighborhood.
They could done more prevention but the issue is still the driver.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 20, 2015, 08:42:25 PM
:hammerhead:
That's like blaming rape victims for being alone in a bad neighborhood.
They could done more prevention but the issue is still the driver.
No, not like that at all. For starters, a rape victim might live alone in a bad neighborhood- i.e. have no choice. Secondly, for the millionth time, most rapes are committed by people the victim knows (i.e. it doesnt matter what neighborhood the victim is in). Dont come at me because you continually choose to be on the wrong side of an issue.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 21, 2015, 09:45:14 AM
No, not like that at all. For starters, a rape victim might live alone in a bad neighborhood- i.e. have no choice. Secondly, for the millionth time, most rapes are committed by people the victim knows (i.e. it doesnt matter what neighborhood the victim is in). Dont come at me because you continually choose to be on the wrong side of an issue.
ok your statement is similar to saying it's the victim's fault for hanging out with the rapist
And "wrong side"???
-rape is wrong
-victims are not to blame
-people need to know the other person's wishes and not violate them
PLUS yes, the majority of rapes are date/acquaintance rapes, but still the random other kind is always going on too
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2015/07/detroit_police_looking_for_men.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2015/07/detroit_police_looking_for_men.html)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 21, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
ok your statement is similar to saying it's the victim's fault for hanging out with the rapist
Still not the same.... people know the dangers of hanging out on the side of a highway.... rape victims dont know their assilants intentions.
It seems you would rather be wrong than agree with me.
Drivers tend to steer the direction that they are looking. Being on the side of the road is always dangerous because drivers unintentionally aim at you when they look at you. This is the cause of many police cars getting run into on the side of the road.
I walk the last mile of my daily commute and have to cross a 4 lane road. I am very careful when crossing but I have repeatedly watched cars drift toward me (some even exiting their lane) while I am crossing. Once I am across the road and they pass me they correct course and go on their merry way.
Yea, target fixation is a huge issue with motorcycles too. Look where you want to go, especially in a potential crash situation.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 21, 2015, 10:50:02 AM
rape victims dont know their assilants intentions.
agree
Re: "target fixation" - that makes sense, but I never really thought of that. Yeeeesh
Favorite motorcyclist past time is Monday night quarterbacking Youtube helmet cam crashes. Target fixation and riding above one's pay grade is almost always the cause of solo crashes.
Quote from: Lacondenian on July 21, 2015, 12:15:51 PM
Re: "target fixation" - that makes sense, but I never really thought of that. Yeeeesh
It was a term from aviation, if I remember right: had to do with the tendency of dive bombers to actually fly into their targets.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 21, 2015, 08:24:27 PM
It was a term from aviation, if I remember right: had to do with the tendency of dive bombers to actually fly into their targets.
From Wikipedia:
"The term target fixation was used in World War II fighter-bomber pilot training to describe pilots flying into targets during a strafing or bombing run."
Quote from: Raza on July 21, 2015, 08:26:01 PM
From Wikipedia:
"The term target fixation was used in World War II fighter-bomber pilot training to describe pilots flying into targets during a strafing or bombing run."
Okay, so was I close enough to get partial credit?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/technology/personaltech/google-says-its-not-the-driverless-cars-fault-its-other-drivers.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/technology/personaltech/google-says-its-not-the-driverless-cars-fault-its-other-drivers.html?_r=0)
It's true... American drivers, for the most part, SUCK, myself included.
Computers may not fall asleep in the sense that we do, but they can have a whole host of other issues that can interrupt communications to the truck, or even its own onboard systems failure that can cause crashes.
I think drivers on average get pushed too hard and drive too many hours by companies that over promise on delivery times.
Quote from: Northlands on September 02, 2015, 02:04:38 PM
Computers may not fall asleep in the sense that we do, but they can have a whole host of other issues that can interrupt communications to the truck, or even its own onboard systems failure that can cause crashes.
I think drivers on average get pushed too hard and drive too many hours by companies that over promise on delivery times.
Sometimes it's the drivers pushing themselves. Most are paid per the mile, so the more miles they can rack up, the more they make.
Quote from: MX793 on September 02, 2015, 03:26:08 PM
Sometimes it's the drivers pushing themselves. Most are paid per the mile, so the more miles they can rack up, the more they make.
Absolutely.
Quote from: MX793 on September 02, 2015, 03:26:08 PM
Sometimes it's the drivers pushing themselves. Most are paid per the mile, so the more miles they can rack up, the more they make.
Its a cooperative arrangement. The companies let the drivers track their own hours, and as long as the driver says he has more hours on his book, they'll happily give him more loads. Yes, the drivers push themselves; but the companies keep giving them loads and they know when a dude hasn't slept.
A lot of the heads of trucking companies are old drivers themselves, who were often the most hard driving sons of bitches in the old days, and they don't think much of the hours of service rules.