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2006 Hummer H3: Baby Looks Big for Its Age
By JERRY GARRETT
Published: September 25, 2005
THE Hummer H3 is a clever optical illusion, an S.U.V. with a fun-house mirror built in. You think you are seeing a Clydesdale, but it's only a Shetland pony.
The H3 is the enfant terrible of the Hummer clan, which until now consisted of the H1, which looks ready to report to boot camp, and the H2, which is often seen clubbing, wearing dubs, in South Beach. The H3 tricks the eye into thinking that it lives as large as its siblings, but it is actually closer to the Jeep Grand Cherokee - only midsize by current standards.
The H3 is, in fact, nearly three feet shorter and four inches narrower than a Chevrolet Suburban. Of course, the post-Katrina climate, with $3-plus gasoline and a distinct shift away from guzzlers, may not be the best time to promote an S.U.V. that looms so large, in perception if not in reality. It could become a whipping boy for environmentalists based on its appearance alone.
Yet while the 4,700-pound H3 is hardly a model of fuel efficiency, it offends far less than the typical six- or eight-cylinder S.U.V. The engine, a 220-horsepower in-line 5-cylinder, won't smoke the tires, and on the highway it approaches 20 m.p.g. - on regular unleaded, no less.
The H3 also fools the wallet. While it looks expensive, at $29,500 it's a relative bargain; by comparison, the H1 (now called the H1 Alpha) costs $110,271 more.
With the H3, General Motors has actually performed a neat trick. All the factors that would appear to be weaknesses for the H3 have been turned into strengths.
Little wonder that this baby Hummer has, since it went on sale in late spring, more than doubled overall sales of G.M.'s tiny Hummer division. Other nonmilitary Hummers account for about 30,000 sales a year; G.M. had hoped the H3 would add another 30,000 in the 2006 model year. In fact, sales are averaging nearly 5,000 monthly, or a potential 60,000 a year. That is welcome news at the beleaguered company.
Why shouldn't H3 be noticed? In a bland universe of me-too S.U.V.'s, the distinctive styling oozes attitude. Susan Docherty, the former Cadillac executive who is now Hummer's general manager, said retaining the brand's styling cues - flat roof, slab sides, grimacing grille - was vital.
"Everyone recognizes a Hummer," she said. "But the H3 is for those who aspired to a Hummer in the past, but felt it was outside their price range, physically too big for them, or they didn't like the mileage. In these areas, the H3 is more acceptable."
Driving an H1, or even an H2, is like having a rolling ZIP code; it is a neighborhood on wheels. Everyone sits in a personal cubicle, isolated from fellow travelers by a center console as wide and long as a New Mexican mesa. Communicating requires shouting over the engine and road noise. Once, while driving an H1, I used my cellphone to call my daughter. She was in the back seat.
The H3's interior is far more intimate, but hardly claustrophobic. The back seat will accommodate three people, but it's much more comfortable for two, especially if they flip down the wide armrest-cum-console. Because of the boxy design, space for heads, legs and shoulders is beyond ample and closer to ludicrous.
Controls are well marked, logically placed and straightforward to use. The driver sits comfortably and is high enough to feel in command of all he surveys; still, he might wish to survey a bit more - especially when parking and making off-road maneuvers. It is hard to determine the ends of the H3, or its wheel paths, without a spotter (not included). A back-up camera (not available) would also be helpful.
Personally, I was delighted to start the engine and hear the rushing of the fans, which reminded me of the combat version, the H.M.M.W.V. M1114, that I drove recently while reporting from Baghdad. While I took the noise as a reassuring sign that I was in a true Hummer, others might find the roar less endearing.
Some have grumbled that the 3.5-liter Vortec, the only engine available, is underwhelming. But the power, or any lack thereof, was also not an issue for me. The H3 can get to 60 miles an hour, from a dead stop, in less than 9 seconds. Hummer hints that a turbocharged or supercharged engine option may be added.
A five-speed manual transmission is standard, and well suited to my gear-slamming Type A driving style; it also delivers a little better fuel economy than the optional four-speed automatic. (The steep price of that option, $1,695, includes a stability control system.) Also standard are responsive antilock brakes, traction control and tire pressure monitors. So is an electronically operated four-wheel-drive system with a two-speed transfer case. (You'll pay extra for the ultra-low gearing and locking differential that you'll need for hard-core off-roading.)
The H3 has enough up-and-down wheel travel to roll right over a 16-inch rock, even with the standard 32-inch tires (33's are optional). Adventure seekers can ford up to two feet of water or climb a 60-degree grade. The bigger, pricier Hummers can do a little better.
H3 borrows its architecture from the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, yet feels tougher and more capable than those midsize pickups.
One might expect the highway manners of such an off-road specialist to be loutish, but the H3 was as at home on the road as it was on the range. Steering was responsive and had a solid on-center feel, without a sense that it had too much power assist. A real plus is the tight turning radius: at 37 feet, it is comparable to a compact Chevy Cobalt's.
Most surprising, the H3 is perhaps the most satisfying to drive of all the G.M. sport utilities.
I had some gripes, though not big ones. The rear seats don't fold flush with the cargo floor, and the maximum cargo volume of 55 cubic feet is the least of any midsize S.U.V.
I also wish side curtain air bags were standard, not a $395 option.
Over all, the base H3 includes more goodies than an Oscar presenter's swag bag. A $3,125 luxury package adds heated leather seats and enough additional stuff to ensure a decadent driving experience.
I particularly liked the double-long sunroof ($800) and the tubular step rails ($695), which will be appreciated by anyone wishing to enter and exit with some decorum.
Even with all those extras, the H3 carries a sticker price of about $36,000. Finally, then, here is a Hummer that not only fits in a garage, it may also fit in your budget.
INSIDE TRACK: A cool can of Hummer Lite.
:barf: I would rather spend my money on a REAL hummer (H1)
If they put the I6 and mated it with a 6-spd manual it could probably manage the same gas mileage as the I5 while offering much more power.
I yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
QuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
:lol:
QuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
QuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
I bet you liked that, lesbian :lol:
A girl at my school has a one :o
I don't mind 'em actually, a solid SUV; albeit a bit slow, but solid.
QuoteA girl at my school has a one :o
I don't mind 'em actually, a solid SUV; albeit a bit slow, but solid.
A small penis or an H3? B) ;)
They seem alright, just a bit "in your face."
The H3 is very attractive IMO, but nothing about it is up to the standards of other SUVs in the $30Ks. The back seat is small, it's not luxury-car quiet or finished like many competitors, and while it handles well for a vehicle that does well off road, it can't hold a candle to a like-priced BMW X3.
Unless you're actually taking it off road, there's no point. And even if you are, a Grand Cherokee will do the same thing with more power and for less money.
QuoteThe H3 is very attractive IMO, but nothing about it is up to the standards of other SUVs in the $30Ks. The back seat is small, it's not luxury-car quiet or finished like many competitors, and while it handles well for a vehicle that does well off road, it can't hold a candle to a like-priced BMW X3.
Unless you're actually taking it off road, there's no point. And even if you are, a Grand Cherokee will do the same thing with more power and for less money.
I'd get an Xterra before this.
Right, almost forgot it, the Xterra is another similar vehicle that's both better and less expensive.
QuoteQuoteThe H3 is very attractive IMO, but nothing about it is up to the standards of other SUVs in the $30Ks. The back seat is small, it's not luxury-car quiet or finished like many competitors, and while it handles well for a vehicle that does well off road, it can't hold a candle to a like-priced BMW X3.
Unless you're actually taking it off road, there's no point. And even if you are, a Grand Cherokee will do the same thing with more power and for less money.
I'd get an Xterra before this.
:rockon:
QuoteQuoteA girl at my school has a one :o
I don't mind 'em actually, a solid SUV; albeit a bit slow, but solid.
A small penis or an H3? B) ;)
:lol:
I don't mind driving a slow vehicle if I can save gas, but if it doesn't have torque, isn't fast, and guzzles gas, then the motor was obviously a poor choice.
I'd say it's little more than a factory "kit-car".
I saw one of these in person a few weeks ago...ugly.
Quote. . .and while it handles well for a vehicle that does well off road, it can't hold a candle to a like-priced BMW X3.
And, likewise, the X3 couldn't hold a candle to the H3 off-road. What's your point? Not everybody wants or needs a pseudo sports sedan in the guise of an SUV, just like not everybody needs a good off-roader.
It's a different kind of vehicle that will most likely satisfy its target audience. You're obviously not part of that audience, but then again I don't find that entirely too surprising.
I like it. :praise:
QuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
:rolleyes:
How very self-righteous of you. Congratulations.
Its target audience is people who want a Hummer that is more maneuverable than the H2. It certainly meets that criteria, but there are better choices for people who both do and don't want a midsize SUV with off-road capability.
QuoteQuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
:rolleyes:
How very self-righteous of you. Congratulations.
So vetteZ06...You drive a corvette right,
A person looking at buying the H3 probably will not think the same way. I doubt they would do a head-to-head comparison of price, features, etc., in order to find out which one is a better buy. That might be the case if you're looking at Corollas and Civics, but the H3 has the kind of emotional appeal that actually counts for something in the buying process. Not sure if you catch my drift here, but it all makes sense to me. ;)
I've never really liked the Xterra much anyway, so I would probably buy the H3 if I was in the market.
QuoteSo vetteZ06...You drive a corvette right,
Nope.
O well
QuoteA person looking at buying the H3 probably will not think the same way. I doubt they would do a head-to-head comparison of price, features, etc., in order to find out which one is a better buy. That might be the case if you're looking at Corollas and Civics, but the H3 has the kind of emotional appeal that actually counts for something in the buying process. Not sure if you catch my drift here, but it all makes sense to me. ;)
I've never really liked the Xterra much anyway, so I would probably buy the H3 if I was in the market.
I never said that it wouldn't sell, just that it isn't a particularly impressive vehicle for the price. Selling well based primarily on emotional appeal does not make it a better car.
Well, I wasn't trying to imply that.
A niche vehicle like the H3 is not designed to have the most rear seat space, the best fuel economy, or the most cargo capacity. That's what mainstream vehicles are designed for because they need to appeal to a broad number of people in the very heart of the market. The H3 is designed to appeal to, like you said, people who have always wanted a Hummer, the kind of people that will definitely buy one when the opportunity arises.
That DOES mean that the H3 will trail some of its closest competition in measureable areas of utility and performance, but then again I don't believe in proclaiming one vehicle a victor over another just by examining the spec sheets. That seems very Consumer Reports-ish to me, so I judge a vehicle by how it feels to me, by how the overall package feels when put to the test.
So yes, if you're a stats sheet kind of person, then the H3 is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But judging a vehicle in that manner seems borderline useless to me, so excuse me if I don't readily believe you when you tell me that there are better choices out there. I reserve the right to make a decision for myself after experiencing both vehicles first-hand.
The overall package feels like an undersized and overpriced SUV with Hummer styling to me. The Hummer image doesn't justify the vehicle's flaws to me, especially when there are similar vehicles available that don't have them.
QuoteWell, I wasn't trying to imply that.
A niche vehicle like the H3 is not designed to have the most rear seat space, the best fuel economy, or the most cargo capacity. That's what mainstream vehicles are designed for because they need to appeal to a broad number of people in the very heart of the market. The H3 is designed to appeal to, like you said, people who have always wanted a Hummer, the kind of people that will definitely buy one when the opportunity arises.
That DOES mean that the H3 will trail some of its closest competition in measureable areas of utility and performance, but then again I don't believe in proclaiming one vehicle a victor over another just by examining the spec sheets. That seems very Consumer Reports-ish to me, so I judge a vehicle by how it feels to me, by how the overall package feels when put to the test.
So yes, if you're a stats sheet kind of person, then the H3 is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But judging a vehicle in that manner seems borderline useless to me, so excuse me if I don't readily believe you when you tell me that there are better choices out there. I reserve the right to make a decision for myself after experiencing both vehicles first-hand.
I pretty much agree with you here. Personally, for under $30,000 I think it is priced right. It does have incredible off road ability and has a comfortable ride. Plus, it has the styling, which some will either love or hate. It looks like nothing else on the road. Nothing against IFCAR, but I think he misses the point. The Hummer may not do some things as well as other SUVs, but it does them competently enough, you get the off road ability and a suv that has distinctive styling. The only thing that Hummer should have is an optional engine with more power.
I'm going to avoid this "car" like the plague.
Every professional report I have read on the H3 has put it at the top of off-roading SUV's. The only thing better off-road is the Wrangler Rubicon but its still able to offer a very comfortable on-road ride. Outside of Land-Rover (which are generally pricier) I dont think any other SUV offers the mix of an H3. Don't get me wrong I don't think the H3 is the ideal SUV for someone that really needs a minivan, but for people that want the ability to go off-road just about anywhere (and still keep their vehicle stock) the H3 is a great choice.
The Xterra you guys refer to gets marginally better fuel economy (1 MPG in city and highway). I don't think that enough to say its better in every way than an H3. That's such a rediculous statement anyway.
Oh but wait, the H3 takes 8 1/2 seconds to go 0-60/ That's just too darn slow...
QuoteEvery professional report I have read on the H3 has put it at the top of off-roading SUV's. The only thing better off-road is the Wrangler Rubicon but its still able to offer a very comfortable on-road ride. Outside of Land-Rover (which are generally pricier) I dont think any other SUV offers the mix of an H3. Don't get me wrong I don't think the H3 is the ideal SUV for someone that really needs a minivan, but for people that want the ability to go off-road just about anywhere (and still keep their vehicle stock) the H3 is a great choice.
The Xterra you guys refer to gets marginally better fuel economy (1 MPG in city and highway). I don't think that enough to say its better in every way than an H3. That's such a rediculous statement anyway.
Oh but wait, the H3 takes 8 1/2 seconds to go 0-60/ That's just too darn slow...
8.5...shit our old truck did that and it was the 5.7L V8 :blink:
QuoteQuoteWell, I wasn't trying to imply that.
A niche vehicle like the H3 is not designed to have the most rear seat space, the best fuel economy, or the most cargo capacity. That's what mainstream vehicles are designed for because they need to appeal to a broad number of people in the very heart of the market. The H3 is designed to appeal to, like you said, people who have always wanted a Hummer, the kind of people that will definitely buy one when the opportunity arises.
That DOES mean that the H3 will trail some of its closest competition in measureable areas of utility and performance, but then again I don't believe in proclaiming one vehicle a victor over another just by examining the spec sheets. That seems very Consumer Reports-ish to me, so I judge a vehicle by how it feels to me, by how the overall package feels when put to the test.
So yes, if you're a stats sheet kind of person, then the H3 is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But judging a vehicle in that manner seems borderline useless to me, so excuse me if I don't readily believe you when you tell me that there are better choices out there. I reserve the right to make a decision for myself after experiencing both vehicles first-hand.
I pretty much agree with you here. Personally, for under $30,000 I think it is priced right. It does have incredible off road ability and has a comfortable ride. Plus, it has the styling, which some will either love or hate. It looks like nothing else on the road. Nothing against IFCAR, but I think he misses the point. The Hummer may not do some things as well as other SUVs, but it does them competently enough, you get the off road ability and a suv that has distinctive styling. The only thing that Hummer should have is an optional engine with more power.
It's only under $30,000 without options. And I understand "the point" of the car, but as I've said, there just isn't anything great about the car short of the styling unless you take it off road. When you do, you're also looking at the much less-expensive and more powerful Xterra, which has everything but the Hummer look.
I just don't believe in giving a car extra kudos for either its styling or for abilities that virtually no one will use.
I've seen about five of these things, and all with women driving. But, they looked like the hardcore offroading types.
<_<
QuoteEvery professional report I have read on the H3 has put it at the top of off-roading SUV's. The only thing better off-road is the Wrangler Rubicon but its still able to offer a very comfortable on-road ride. Outside of Land-Rover (which are generally pricier) I dont think any other SUV offers the mix of an H3. Don't get me wrong I don't think the H3 is the ideal SUV for someone that really needs a minivan, but for people that want the ability to go off-road just about anywhere (and still keep their vehicle stock) the H3 is a great choice.
The Xterra you guys refer to gets marginally better fuel economy (1 MPG in city and highway). I don't think that enough to say its better in every way than an H3. That's such a rediculous statement anyway.
Oh but wait, the H3 takes 8 1/2 seconds to go 0-60/ That's just too darn slow...
Who said it was better in every way? <_<
It's a generally similar vehicle with more space and power for close to $10,000 less. I'd say that makes it better overall, Hummer styling or not.
And I wouldn't disagree that the H3 could be a reasonable choice for someone who will actually use its abilities. I just doubt that most will.
Quote
Who said it was better in every way? <_<
It's a generally similar vehicle with more space and power for close to $10,000 less. I'd say that makes it better overall, Hummer styling or not.
You said it was "better" without any qualification.
The H3 is a more luxorious car than the Xterra and its better off-road. The Xterra is faster and cheaper.
Well I decided to use a cmoparison from edmunds just to get an idea on a few things. I am comparing the H3, 4Runner SR5 (V6), Xterra, and Grand Cherokee (V6). All of them are 4WD.
The Xterra not surprisingly is the cheapest, but the H3 is actually the second cheapest. I actually used a V8 Grand Cherokee at first, but its base MSRP is above even a fully loaded H3 so its not comparable. (edit: I read this again and just to clarify I am referring to the V6 only in the previous Paragraph, I only mentioned the V8 here because I don't think people realize how expensive it is. A GC Hemi runs about 40k)
The H3 does get the worst gas mileage, but keep in mind we are talking a total difference of 2 MPG from best to worst, and actually the two middle SUV's are only 1 MPG better than the H3. I think for most consumers this is just about a draw. The 4runner surprisingly gets the best MPG.
The Xterra and 4Runner are both pretty quick, but the Jeep is just as "slow" as the H3. Th Xterra w/ 6MT would be the fastest.
Interior, even in base form, is a "win" for the H3. Its just the best looking, even with cloth seats (which I've actually seen in person). With the leather seats the H3 looks outstanding.
Interior room isn't as clear as you make it out to be. The H3 has the best headroom (front and back) and the second most legroom front and back, but loses on shoulder/hip room. Its a much better 4-seater than 5 seater. The 4Runner is the clear winner here since its actually a 7 seater (even though passengers 6+7 would probably be very uncomfortable), but after that its pretty close between the H3, Xterra, and Cherokee. Without pulling specs I doubt most people could even tell the difference.
Off-road the only real competitors are the Xterra and H3, and I think most professionals have stated the H3 is unmatched off-road and I wil take their opinion since I really don't know much about that.
While I understand that when you evaluate these SUV's as minivans the H3 doesn't look that good, but as SUV's that are mant to go off-road its looks very competitive in most areas and best in class in a couple. Do I think its the best SUV for everyone? Of course not, but its a great SUV and I think GM deserves Kudos for building the best "Hummer" since the original. Its true that if you don't need off-roading capability the H3 isn't a good choice...but there-in lies the critical thing about sales...most people don't buy cars they need, they buy cars they want. And for whatever reason people want SUV's that can go off-road even if they don't use it very often. If I needed something in this class I would most likely go for an Xterra (not a big fan of SUV's in the first place, so whatever let's me spend the least amount of money wins :P ) but I can still see the good qualities of the H3. I also don't feel the need to make fun of people genitalia simply because they like a certain style of truck.
Seems to be a good debate brewing here Lets rumble! (http://www.folloder.com/sounds/TV%20Theme%20-%20Let%27s%20Get%20Ready%20to%20Rumble.wav)
QuoteUnless you're actually taking it off road, there's no point. And even if you are, a Grand Cherokee will do the same thing with more power and for less money.
Just thought I'd come back to this.
The GC 3.7 has less power standard and is more expensive standard.
According to Edmunds the MSRP on a 4WD GC Laredo is 29,135, MSRP on a H3 is 28,935. The GC comes with 210 HP and the H3 comes with 220.
QuoteQuote
Who said it was better in every way? <_<
It's a generally similar vehicle with more space and power for close to $10,000 less. I'd say that makes it better overall, Hummer styling or not.
You said it was "better" without any qualification.
The H3 is a more luxorious car than the Xterra and its better off-road. The Xterra is faster and cheaper.
Well I decided to use a cmoparison from edmunds just to get an idea on a few things. I am comparing the H3, 4Runner SR5 (V6), Xterra, and Grand Cherokee (V6). All of them are 4WD.
The Xterra not surprisingly is the cheapest, but the H3 is actually the second cheapest. I actually used a V8 Grand Cherokee at first, but its base MSRP is above even a fully loaded H3 so its not comparable. (edit: I read this again and just to clarify I am referring to the V6 only in the previous Paragraph, I only mentioned the V8 here because I don't think people realize how expensive it is. A GC Hemi runs about 40k)
The H3 does get the worst gas mileage, but keep in mind we are talking a total difference of 2 MPG from best to worst, and actually the two middle SUV's are only 1 MPG better than the H3. I think for most consumers this is just about a draw. The 4runner surprisingly gets the best MPG.
The Xterra and 4Runner are both pretty quick, but the Jeep is just as "slow" as the H3. Th Xterra w/ 6MT would be the fastest.
Interior, even in base form, is a "win" for the H3. Its just the best looking, even with cloth seats (which I've actually seen in person). With the leather seats the H3 looks outstanding.
Interior room isn't as clear as you make it out to be. The H3 has the best headroom (front and back) and the second most legroom front and back, but loses on shoulder/hip room. Its a much better 4-seater than 5 seater. The 4Runner is the clear winner here since its actually a 7 seater (even though passengers 6+7 would probably be very uncomfortable), but after that its pretty close between the H3, Xterra, and Cherokee. Without pulling specs I doubt most people could even tell the difference.
Off-road the only real competitors are the Xterra and H3, and I think most professionals have stated the H3 is unmatched off-road and I wil take their opinion since I really don't know much about that.
While I understand that when you evaluate these SUV's as minivans the H3 doesn't look that good, but as SUV's that are mant to go off-road its looks very competitive in most areas and best in class in a couple. Do I think its the best SUV for everyone? Of course not, but its a great SUV and I think GM deserves Kudos for building the best "Hummer" since the original. Its true that if you don't need off-roading capability the H3 isn't a good choice...but there-in lies the critical thing about sales...most people don't buy cars they need, they buy cars they want. And for whatever reason people want SUV's that can go off-road even if they don't use it very often. If I needed something in this class I would most likely go for an Xterra (not a big fan of SUV's in the first place, so whatever let's me spend the least amount of money wins :P ) but I can still see the good qualities of the H3. I also don't feel the need to make fun of people genitalia simply because they like a certain style of truck.
I definitely respect its blend of on and off-road behavior. But its off-road capability compromises other areas, making it a rather mediocre vehicle for anyone who won't use it.
Look at it this way:
As a smaller Hummer, it's not half bad. But the people who are actually buying the thing could easily find vehicles better for them.
And BTW, measurements will never tell the story of seat comfort. The H3's rear lacks leg and foot space with regard to how the human body is shaped in relation to the seats, no matter what the numbers say.
As to the Grand Cherokee, its MSRP is almost irrelevent. The H3 is going much closer to sticker than the GC.
QuoteAnd BTW, measurements will never tell the story of seat comfort. The H3's rear lacks leg and foot space with regard to how the human body is shaped in relation to the seats, no matter what the numbers say.
As to the Grand Cherokee, its MSRP is almost irrelevent. The H3 is going much closer to sticker than the GC.
Admittedly I am only 5'10 ~175 lbs, but I fit in the back seat fine. Three of me might not be comfortable, but two of me would be perfectly happy back there.
As for sticker vs selling price...its the only relevant thing we can use. Anything else is too ambiguous and frankly too dependant on your negotiation skills. The fact that the H3 is selling closer to sticker just shows its demand is closer to its supply, nothing else.
QuoteSeems to be a good debate brewing here Lets rumble! (http://www.folloder.com/sounds/TV%20Theme%20-%20Let%27s%20Get%20Ready%20to%20Rumble.wav)
:lol: :lol:
QuoteQuoteSeems to be a good debate brewing here Lets rumble! (http://www.folloder.com/sounds/TV%20Theme%20-%20Let%27s%20Get%20Ready%20to%20Rumble.wav)
:lol: :lol:
:rockon:
QuoteQuoteI yelled "SMALL PENIS" at one the other day but it turned out to be a chick driving.
:rolleyes:
How very self-righteous of you. Congratulations.
Thank you. :praise:
QuoteQuoteAnd BTW, measurements will never tell the story of seat comfort. The H3's rear lacks leg and foot space with regard to how the human body is shaped in relation to the seats, no matter what the numbers say.
As to the Grand Cherokee, its MSRP is almost irrelevent. The H3 is going much closer to sticker than the GC.
Admittedly I am only 5'10 ~175 lbs, but I fit in the back seat fine. Three of me might not be comfortable, but two of me would be perfectly happy back there.
As for sticker vs selling price...its the only relevant thing we can use. Anything else is too ambiguous and frankly too dependant on your negotiation skills. The fact that the H3 is selling closer to sticker just shows its demand is closer to its supply, nothing else.
It shows that you can get the Grand Cherokee for less money. If you're buying, isn't that more important than the MSRP?
QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd BTW, measurements will never tell the story of seat comfort. The H3's rear lacks leg and foot space with regard to how the human body is shaped in relation to the seats, no matter what the numbers say.
As to the Grand Cherokee, its MSRP is almost irrelevent. The H3 is going much closer to sticker than the GC.
Admittedly I am only 5'10 ~175 lbs, but I fit in the back seat fine. Three of me might not be comfortable, but two of me would be perfectly happy back there.
As for sticker vs selling price...its the only relevant thing we can use. Anything else is too ambiguous and frankly too dependant on your negotiation skills. The fact that the H3 is selling closer to sticker just shows its demand is closer to its supply, nothing else.
It shows that you can get the Grand Cherokee for less money. If you're buying, isn't that more important than the MSRP?
Okay fine the GC is cheaper, you win.
When I say that you can get a GC for less money, I mean only that. What is your point?
QuoteWhen I say that you can get a GC for less money, I mean only that. What is your point?
That the H3 offers more standard power at a lower standard price than the GC.
If you are more interested in negotiated prices congratulations. All you proved is that the H3 is more in demand than the GC. GM can't help it if no one wants to buy the GC at MSRP. :rolleyes:
You know between this thread and the HHR thread I have to say I really wonder about you Ifcar.
QuoteQuoteWhen I say that you can get a GC for less money, I mean only that. What is your point?
That the H3 offers more standard power at a lower standard price than the GC.
If you are more interested in negotiated prices congratulations. All you proved is that the H3 is more in demand than the GC. GM can't help it if no one wants to buy the GC at MSRP. :rolleyes:
I'm neither GM nor DCX, I could care less WHY the Grand Cherokee sells for less money than the H3 despite a higher sticker. If I were buying the car, the Grand Cherokee would be less expensive.
It would be like criticizing the 2005 LeSabre for "costing" more than the Avalon because of its sticker price, MSRP just isn't related to anything in the real world.
Quote...MSRP just isn't related to anything in the real world...
Yet pretty much every magazine in the world uses it as a basis for comparisons. Guess you know more than them.
Anyway fine I cede the point, (due to higher demand the) H3 will cost more in the real world than a Grand Cherokee. GM sucks. Congrats.
QuoteQuote...MSRP just isn't related to anything in the real world...
Yet pretty much every magazine in the world uses it as a basis for comparisons. Guess you know more than them.
Anyway fine I cede the point, (due to higher demand the) H3 will cost more in the real world than a Grand Cherokee. GM sucks. Congrats.
I have often disagreed with the emphasis placed on MSRP in reviews, especially those that factor price into what is said. Oft-rebated models too often face unnecessary criticism, and are sometimes even called overpriced when they are truly the bargains of their class.
It has nothing to do with GM, it's just a simple fact that if you are buying a base Grand Cherokee you will pay less than you would a base H3.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, I wasn't trying to imply that.
A niche vehicle like the H3 is not designed to have the most rear seat space, the best fuel economy, or the most cargo capacity. That's what mainstream vehicles are designed for because they need to appeal to a broad number of people in the very heart of the market. The H3 is designed to appeal to, like you said, people who have always wanted a Hummer, the kind of people that will definitely buy one when the opportunity arises.
That DOES mean that the H3 will trail some of its closest competition in measureable areas of utility and performance, but then again I don't believe in proclaiming one vehicle a victor over another just by examining the spec sheets. That seems very Consumer Reports-ish to me, so I judge a vehicle by how it feels to me, by how the overall package feels when put to the test.
So yes, if you're a stats sheet kind of person, then the H3 is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But judging a vehicle in that manner seems borderline useless to me, so excuse me if I don't readily believe you when you tell me that there are better choices out there. I reserve the right to make a decision for myself after experiencing both vehicles first-hand.
I pretty much agree with you here. Personally, for under $30,000 I think it is priced right. It does have incredible off road ability and has a comfortable ride. Plus, it has the styling, which some will either love or hate. It looks like nothing else on the road. Nothing against IFCAR, but I think he misses the point. The Hummer may not do some things as well as other SUVs, but it does them competently enough, you get the off road ability and a suv that has distinctive styling. The only thing that Hummer should have is an optional engine with more power.
It's only under $30,000 without options. And I understand "the point" of the car, but as I've said, there just isn't anything great about the car short of the styling unless you take it off road. When you do, you're also looking at the much less-expensive and more powerful Xterra, which has everything but the Hummer look.
I just don't believe in giving a car extra kudos for either its styling or for abilities that virtually no one will use.
You make the H3 out to be a SUV that is nearly a one trick pony: Great off road ability and Hummer styling if that is something you want. Like I said, there are other SUVs that perform better in other respects, but the H3 performs competently enough in most areas that it makes it a reasonable choice. The seating is comfortable, it has a good ride and for a heavy vehicle it handles pretty well. The back seat is reasonably comfortable, but talk about an area that is over rated in the ratings, it is here. How often, except for short trips do you see adults, placed in the back seat of a car/suv?
The interior is nice looking and the cargo area is roomy enough to handle what is typically hauled around: groceries, luggage, etc. It could use a little more power. As far as off road ability, while not denying the Xterra's abilities, the H3 is more capable. As for your comment about not giving kudos for abilities that virtually no one uses, well you also could make that comment about other areas of a vehicle's performance such as top end speed or the upper handling limits of a vehicle.
QuoteQuoteQuote...MSRP just isn't related to anything in the real world...
Yet pretty much every magazine in the world uses it as a basis for comparisons. Guess you know more than them.
Anyway fine I cede the point, (due to higher demand the) H3 will cost more in the real world than a Grand Cherokee. GM sucks. Congrats.
I have often disagreed with the emphasis placed on MSRP in reviews, especially those that factor price into what is said. Oft-rebated models too often face unnecessary criticism, and are sometimes even called overpriced when they are truly the bargains of their class.
It has nothing to do with GM, it's just a simple fact that if you are buying a base Grand Cherokee you will pay less than you would a base H3.
But, yet you use the EPA's gas mileage figures in your vehicle evaluations which, have been shown to have a wide range of discrepancies between what is stated and what is actually found in real world driving.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...MSRP just isn't related to anything in the real world...
Yet pretty much every magazine in the world uses it as a basis for comparisons. Guess you know more than them.
Anyway fine I cede the point, (due to higher demand the) H3 will cost more in the real world than a Grand Cherokee. GM sucks. Congrats.
I have often disagreed with the emphasis placed on MSRP in reviews, especially those that factor price into what is said. Oft-rebated models too often face unnecessary criticism, and are sometimes even called overpriced when they are truly the bargains of their class.
It has nothing to do with GM, it's just a simple fact that if you are buying a base Grand Cherokee you will pay less than you would a base H3.
But, yet you use the EPA's gas mileage figures in your vehicle evaluations which, have been shown to have a wide range of discrepancies between what is stated and what is actually found in real world driving.
Aside from hybrids, I've found them sufficient for simple comparison purposes, for seeing which vehicle gets better mileage than another. However, I will rarely quote the actual EPA figures.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, I wasn't trying to imply that.
A niche vehicle like the H3 is not designed to have the most rear seat space, the best fuel economy, or the most cargo capacity. That's what mainstream vehicles are designed for because they need to appeal to a broad number of people in the very heart of the market. The H3 is designed to appeal to, like you said, people who have always wanted a Hummer, the kind of people that will definitely buy one when the opportunity arises.
That DOES mean that the H3 will trail some of its closest competition in measureable areas of utility and performance, but then again I don't believe in proclaiming one vehicle a victor over another just by examining the spec sheets. That seems very Consumer Reports-ish to me, so I judge a vehicle by how it feels to me, by how the overall package feels when put to the test.
So yes, if you're a stats sheet kind of person, then the H3 is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But judging a vehicle in that manner seems borderline useless to me, so excuse me if I don't readily believe you when you tell me that there are better choices out there. I reserve the right to make a decision for myself after experiencing both vehicles first-hand.
I pretty much agree with you here. Personally, for under $30,000 I think it is priced right. It does have incredible off road ability and has a comfortable ride. Plus, it has the styling, which some will either love or hate. It looks like nothing else on the road. Nothing against IFCAR, but I think he misses the point. The Hummer may not do some things as well as other SUVs, but it does them competently enough, you get the off road ability and a suv that has distinctive styling. The only thing that Hummer should have is an optional engine with more power.
It's only under $30,000 without options. And I understand "the point" of the car, but as I've said, there just isn't anything great about the car short of the styling unless you take it off road. When you do, you're also looking at the much less-expensive and more powerful Xterra, which has everything but the Hummer look.
I just don't believe in giving a car extra kudos for either its styling or for abilities that virtually no one will use.
You make the H3 out to be a SUV that is nearly a one trick pony: Great off road ability and Hummer styling if that is something you want. Like I said, there are other SUVs that perform better in other respects, but the H3 performs competently enough in most areas that it makes it a reasonable choice. The seating is comfortable, it has a good ride and for a heavy vehicle it handles pretty well. The back seat is reasonably comfortable, but talk about an area that is over rated in the ratings, it is here. How often, except for short trips do you see adults, placed in the back seat of a car/suv?
The interior is nice looking and the cargo area is roomy enough to handle what is typically hauled around: groceries, luggage, etc. It could use a little more power. As far as off road ability, while not denying the Xterra's abilities, the H3 is more capable. As for your comment about not giving kudos for abilities that virtually no one uses, well you also could make that comment about other areas of a vehicle's performance such as top end speed or the upper handling limits of a vehicle.
I didn't mention the H3's upper handling limits or top speed for that reason. ;)
And I recognize that the H3 is a decent vehicle in on-road conditions. However, as I've said, sacrifices to its on-road behavior were obviously necessary to improve its off-road capability. So except for people who will actually be taking it off road, a competitor focused almost exclusively on on-road behavior would be a better choice, as it wouldn't have those sacrifices. That's all I've been saying.
And while I've heard great things about the H3 off-road, I believe the Xterra has more aftermarket support for the hardcore group.
I don't understand what the argument is here, ifcar has stated numerous times that the H3 is good offroad (though I don't believe it is any better than a Nismo Xterra) but it falls behind its competitors onroad which is where most of them will spend all of their time.
Let's see...when was the last time I saw a dirty or mud covered Hummer? Oh right, I never have seen a dirty Hummer.
QuoteLet's see...when was the last time I saw a dirty or mud covered Hummer? Oh right, I never have seen a dirty Hummer.
I've never seen a dirty H2 or H3. The H2 drivers don't want to get their rims dirty... those 22's don't fare too well off road. (I live in Arkansas for God's sake, and most H2s here are "pimped". <_< ) H1 is a different story. People willing to buy one of those generally can use one.
I have also seen a H1 that was used offroad, or at least appeared to have been used offroad. The sides were scratched up, but maybe he just tried to drive the needles highway which has some 9 ft wide tunnels ;). On a slightly different subject, the guy did a beautiful parking job, it was right in the middle of the space. Sure there was only 3 inches on each side, but still a very impressive feat considering the vehicle.
QuoteI have also seen a H1 that was used offroad, or at least appeared to have been used offroad. The sides were scratched up, but maybe he just tried to drive the needles highway which has some 9 ft wide tunnels ;). On a slightly different subject, the guy did a beautiful parking job, it was right in the middle of the space. Sure there was only 3 inches on each side, but still a very impressive feat considering the vehicle.
The needles highway is kinda scary unless you're driving a subcompact. I saw an RV that had gotten through one tunnel, and wouldn't fit through the one after. :D They had to back through the previous tunnel to a turn around spot. I felt sorry for them.
what is this needles highway?
South Dakota, I'm shocked that someone besides me knew what I was talking about.
QuoteSouth Dakota, I'm shocked that someone besides me knew what I was talking about.
i said 'what'. ;)
thewizard knew what he meant.
QuoteI don't understand what the argument is here, ifcar has stated numerous times that the H3 is good offroad (though I don't believe it is any better than a Nismo Xterra) but it falls behind its competitors onroad which is where most of them will spend all of their time.
How exactly does it fall behind it competitors?
If you are comparing lifted stations wagons to a real truck of course it won't be as nice, but then you are back to the basic problem. If everyone built cars for the lowest common denominator we would have no interesting options.
The article said the H3 had very good driving characteristics on the road BTW, and as I mentioned its generally considered the best off-road vehicle outside of a Wrangler by the people that have tested. So your "belief" that the Xterra is better off-road is interesting to me in only that it shows you can't accept simple facts. I am guessing its because you are predisposed to not liking a "Hummer."
QuoteSouth Dakota, I'm shocked that someone besides me knew what I was talking about.
:blink: I would think the Needles highway was somewhat well known. Beautiful area.
QuoteQuoteI don't understand what the argument is here, ifcar has stated numerous times that the H3 is good offroad (though I don't believe it is any better than a Nismo Xterra) but it falls behind its competitors onroad which is where most of them will spend all of their time.
How exactly does it fall behind it competitors?
As a blend of on and off-road behavior, it doesn't. In the way it will be used (judging by past Hummer models), it doesn't drive as well, or have as roomy or as nice of an interior as many like-priced competitors.