You look at cars like the F40, 959, Countach etc.... or hell even something as mundane as an E30 M3 or Integra Type-R... seems like folks still go nuts over these cars, even though most of them would get washed by a $50K Camaro SS. EVO recently did a video revisiting the 959 and Jethro was loving every minute of it. What gives? Are there any cars from today we will still be swooning over in 30 years? Is the nostalgia just hipster bullshit or the real deal and if so what's changed?
Of course there are. Most of the reason we fawn over oldies is simply because they came out at a time when we were falling in love with cars or have some emotional significance to us.
All's I'm sayin' is that there is nothing quite like a relatively light car with a big inch, pushrod, long stroke engine and low rear axle ratio. It's called brute force. Modern cars don't have it.
It's quite invigorating. You should experience it sometime.
There's more great cars out than ever. Stop using Jethro as a bench mark for whether a car is great or not. The dude power slides mclarens for a living. 959 is probably thrilling to him because it's something different to him.
They don't captivate u because u don't have as much time in your life to devote to them. I'd say this is a general theme across this board
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 22, 2016, 01:25:28 PM
They don't captivate u because u don't have as much time in your life to devote to them. I'd say this is a general theme across this board
+10
When I was in high school, my thinking was "when I get some money, I'm going to get a whole fleet of fast cars!" My priorities are totally different now. I realized that the legal system, rapey insurance, and overall congestion in my region conspire to make daily driving kind of a shitty experience. Subaru is solid transportation and I'm perfectly happy with that.
Why don't cars captivate us like they used to? Because we're adults with adult concerns.
In 30 years, when all cars are characterless, near-silent, self-driving, electric vehicles, nearly every car today will seem special.
Quote from: shp4man on May 22, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
All's I'm sayin' is that there is nothing quite like a relatively light car with a big inch, pushrod, long stroke engine and low rear axle ratio. It's called brute force. Modern cars don't have it.
It's quite invigorating. You should experience it sometime.
Hell yeah
Quote from: MX793 on May 22, 2016, 02:08:50 PM
In 30 years, when all cars are characterless, near-silent, self-driving, electric vehicles, nearly every car today will seem special.
This is what I am talking about.... adults our age have always been into cars... none of the cars I'm talking about were designed or primarily bought by teenagers
My priorities have definitely shifted but I don't think it's unreasonable to say something like a Countach is more interesting than its successors. I feel like cars today are a little too strangled by regulations and fiduciary obligations. And maybe we have just run out of ideas to a large degree.
Cars are expensive and less friendly to work on.
I'm still into cars, but I think the climate of the fact that most cars these days are pretty good now also ruins it
Quote from: 2o6 on May 22, 2016, 05:42:57 PM
Cars are expensive and less friendly to work on.
I'm still into cars, but I think the climate of the fact that most cars these days are pretty good now also ruins it
Motorcycles and hot rods (maybe a kit car or two) is the direction I'm headed for that exact reason. Wrenching as a hobby is becoming less possible with new cars, so I'm focusing elsewhere.
I just don't enjoy working on cars that much. Lots of hard to reach bits, grease, uncomfortable positions, and that's when nothing goes wrong.
Yeah. working on cars isn't fun. It's just too expensive to pay someone to do it all usually. I just like the end result I guess.
Maintenance isn't fun. Upgrading, hot rodding, building, etc is fun.
I was just telling a friend that it's only a few cars that tickle my fancy! Maybe 4 that I can Afford and another 3 that are on my "First Cars To Buy If I Hit The Lotto" list!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 22, 2016, 07:48:25 PM
Maintenance isn't fun. Upgrading, hot rodding, building, etc is fun.
I guess our resident pencil pushers wouldn't agree with that, but oh well. :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on May 22, 2016, 07:36:38 PM
I just don't enjoy working on cars that much. Lots of hard to reach bits, grease, uncomfortable positions, and that's when nothing goes wrong.
Maybe you're just not very good at it. :lol:
Quote from: MrH on May 22, 2016, 07:42:55 PM
Yeah. working on cars isn't fun.
I enjoy it. To the extent that yesterday I bought a tire changing machine so I can mount/ dismount my own tires.
Quote from: CLKid on May 22, 2016, 08:18:01 PM
I enjoy it. To the extent that yesterday I bought a tire changing machine so I can mount/ dismount my own tires.
I need one of those!
Why? Because they all fucking suck.
Everything has gotten bigger, heavier, and the driving "connection" has gotten progressively worse with every generation.
I want a car with a belt line lower than my shoulder, that weighs <= 3000lbs, has steering that communicates, a gas pedal without lag, revs that don't hang, 200-250hp, and is somewhat practical (4 seats, usable trunk).
Its insane how much more in control I feel driving my RSX-S than my CSX. The RSX-S is involving and communicative (hydraulic steering, cable throttle), the CSX is alright, but has generally numb response in comparison (EPS, DBW). I realize that EPS and DBW can be done right, but its not often you hear that it is.
There isn't a single new car at a reasonable price (to me <40,000CAD) that gets me even remotely excited. If a tree crushed both my cars I would probably get a WRX, but the idea of brake based torque vectoring irritates me even if it is unlikely to overheat the brakes off the track.
Actually, I'd probably just go get a new 2.0L 6spd Civic, or try a Mazda 3 and just get it over with. It'd be easier to live with a car I don't really care about since no one else gives a shit out there either. I watched a bitch in a mini-van open her door into the CSX the other day as she parked off center next to it, not hard mind you, but it did leave a mark I had to buff out...
/bitterrant
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 22, 2016, 01:25:28 PM
They don't captivate u because u don't have as much time in your life to devote to them. I'd say this is a general theme across this board
I can feel that my interest has waned in cars, primarily due to motorcycles giving me a much more visceral experience, but I still think a big part of why I'm not as interested in cars is because the way new cars have been progressing is pretty depressing. Lack of manual transmissions, more gadgets and features I don't want, extra safety crap, more diluted driving experience and heavier weight all make me not really want to ever buy a new car past 2005 or so...
Quote from: MrH on May 22, 2016, 01:15:46 PM
There's more great cars out than ever. Stop using Jethro as a bench mark for whether a car is great or not. The dude power slides mclarens for a living. 959 is probably thrilling to him because it's something different to him.
Great in terms of mag racing, sure, but I wouldn't agree in terms of driving enjoyment or engagement.
Millennials don't like mechanical things. Only electronic crap...and not the electronic workings of it, just the use of it.
Also, if the problem is that cars are too big and heavy now, why do baby boomers love the land yachts of the 60's? Even "midsize" cars back then had about 10ft more sheetmetal than they needed.
1. There's no passion left. Cars are too much of a business now. Skunkworks just can't exist anymore. There are no engineers working secretly after hours to give us the next Miura. They punch a clock, and the accountants tell them if they did a good job or not.
2. Because of this, cars generally suck now. Yes, they're better appliances now than they ever were. Appliances for transportation, appliances for speed, appliances that don't break down; but I've never once said I loved my microwave or wanted a poster of it on my wall (fully disclosure, I do love my fridge and dishwasher, but I still wouldn't want them as posters on my wall).
3. As people either demanded or perceived to demand higher and higher performance with no regards to feel, the limits of cars got higher and higher. Because a 6 second to 60 Camry still has to drive the kids to school before John Middlemanagement takes it to the office. Can't have him spinning out and wiping out his entire family because he didn't have his morning coffee. Driving is inherently dangerous and people don't have the appetite for it anymore, which brings me to the next point....
4. The overstimulation of a generation means that the market as a whole as decided that driving a car is no longer an effort worthy of its time, attention, and focus. The market would rather text than drive. Therefore, cars have had to become mobile phone holders more than cars. People need a place where they can text and drive, tweet "that wall is coming up really fast" as they fail to steer away from their grisly end, read emails, find restaurants, and play movies to pacify and eventually zombify their children, the next overstimulated generation, because disciplining your unwanted children is too much damn work when you need to spend more time SnapChatting about your fucking workout.
5. There's no beauty in cars anymore. Look at past designs. Look at a Ferrari Daytona. A Lamborghini Miura. A pagoda SL. A 246 Dino. The best looking cars these days are normal cars, and they're more and more becoming ungainly turds with weird noses and beltlines so high that windows will soon become a figment of the imagination. Lamborghinis still excite the eye a bit, but the majority of Ferraris are downright ugly now. Aston Martin is the only company still making truly beautiful cars (well, perhaps Jaguar with the F and XK as well), but that's pretty much because they built on the DB7's looks with the DB9 and Vanquish, and then ever since then, every car has been basically a slight variation on those two designs.
I am clinging on to my Z4 for dear life because I think it's one of the last beautiful (and I know that's disputed), exploitable, and fun cars we may ever see. It's engaging, it's raw, it's precise, the car feels mechanical; the shifter is taut like a rifle bolt, the clutch balanced and delicate like a ballerina holding a katana. In short, the Z4, to me, is something truly special. I can't really seem to say that about much else that's out there right now.
Quote from: Raza on May 22, 2016, 10:02:53 PM
1. There's no passion left. Cars are too much of a business now. Skunkworks just can't exist anymore. There are no engineers working secretly after hours to give us the next Miura. They punch a clock, and the accountants tell them if they did a good job or not.
2. Because of this, cars generally suck now. Yes, they're better appliances now than they ever were. Appliances for transportation, appliances for speed, appliances that don't break down; but I've never once said I loved my microwave or wanted a poster of it on my wall (fully disclosure, I do love my fridge and dishwasher, but I still wouldn't want them as posters on my wall).
3. As people either demanded or perceived to demand higher and higher performance with no regards to feel, the limits of cars got higher and higher. Because a 6 second to 60 Camry still has to drive the kids to school before John Middlemanagement takes it to the office. Can't have him spinning out and wiping out his entire family because he didn't have his morning coffee. Driving is inherently dangerous and people don't have the appetite for it anymore, which brings me to the next point....
4. The overstimulation of a generation means that the market as a whole as decided that driving a car is no longer an effort worthy of its time, attention, and focus. The market would rather text than drive. Therefore, cars have had to become mobile phone holders more than cars. People need a place where they can text and drive, tweet "that wall is coming up really fast" as they fail to steer away from their grisly end, read emails, find restaurants, and play movies to pacify and eventually zombify their children, the next overstimulated generation, because disciplining your unwanted children is too much damn work when you need to spend more time SnapChatting about your fucking workout.
5. There's no beauty in cars anymore. Look at past designs. Look at a Ferrari Daytona. A Lamborghini Miura. A pagoda SL. A 246 Dino. The best looking cars these days are normal cars, and they're more and more becoming ungainly turds with weird noses and beltlines so high that windows will soon become a figment of the imagination. Lamborghinis still excite the eye a bit, but the majority of Ferraris are downright ugly now. Aston Martin is the only company still making truly beautiful cars (well, perhaps Jaguar with the F and XK as well), but that's pretty much because they built on the DB7's looks with the DB9 and Vanquish, and then ever since then, every car has been basically a slight variation on those two designs.
I am clinging on to my Z4 for dear life because I think it's one of the last beautiful (and I know that's disputed), exploitable, and fun cars we may ever see. It's engaging, it's raw, it's precise, the car feels mechanical; the shifter is taut like a rifle bolt, the clutch balanced and delicate like a ballerina holding a katana. In short, the Z4, to me, is something truly special. I can't really seem to say that about much else that's out there right now.
:golfclap:
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on May 22, 2016, 08:29:35 PM
I want a car with a belt line lower than my shoulder, that weighs <= 3000lbs, has steering that communicates, a gas pedal without lag, revs that don't hang
Nailed it.
I'm excited for the new Miata in theory, but I'm honestly scared to drive it. The EPS and DBW give me a lot of doubt.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 22, 2016, 08:15:51 PM
I guess our resident pencil pushers wouldn't agree with that, but oh well. :lol:
Is this the snobbery of the underclass I'm seeing here? ;)
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 22, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Maybe you're just not very good at it. :lol:
You have that reversed. I'm not good at it because I don't like it.
Also, I'm good at some of it-- lots better than most dummies with a wrench. I'm great at running wires. :lol: Still don't like it though.
I think it's far more about maturity and seeing what we want in a car rather than the state of automotive landscape these days.
There are a lot of cars that are engaging, but the limits of modern cars are much higher than older cars; hell my subcompact Sonic will cruise all day at 85MPH whilst feeling as solid as a rock. 15 years ago, cars in this class were total turds on the freeway, and 25 years ago they didn't last very long at all.
I think a lot of the involvement segment has gone down a couple segments, since Compact/Midsized cars IMO have always been too big to be fun to drive. I'd rather have a Fiesta ST over a Focus ST. I'd rather drive a base Mazda 2 over a Mazda 3.
I think the design aspect is overstated, it's more design by committee rather than actual passion these days; modern designs are pitched by endless focus groups and teams of designers to make a marketable, successful car. With that, I think you end up losing a lot of things that make car design unique.....most cars these days look the same (or a bit ugly).
Quote from: MrH on May 22, 2016, 01:15:46 PM
There's more great cars out than ever. Stop using Jethro as a bench mark for whether a car is great or not. The dude power slides mclarens for a living. 959 is probably thrilling to him because it's something different to him.
He likes a lot of lesser cars. I pointed to the 959 report simply for the fact that they did it. Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?
Even as a metric manager and somewhat metric fetish you even see this- it's why you sold your modern BRZ for an old S2K. Well at least partially. There is something visceral that has been lost, and I think it goes beyond contrarian nostalgia.
It really hit me when I drove that Mazda3.... it was really bad. If that is the dynamic champ of compact cars we are so screwed bro.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 23, 2016, 06:29:57 AM
He likes a lot of lesser cars. I pointed to the 959 report simply for the fact that they did it. Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?
Even as a metric manager and somewhat metric fetish you even see this- it's why you sold your modern BRZ for an old S2K. Well at least partially. There is something visceral that has been lost, and I think it goes beyond contrarian nostalgia.
It really hit me when I drove that Mazda3.... it was really bad. If that is the dynamic champ of compact cars we are so screwed bro.
I think the LaFerrari, P1, and 918 are today's poster cars. I think they're just hitting us at an older age, where we're thinking more about how financially impossible they are instead of what they're capable of.
As for the BRZ to S2k switch, I did it for a lot of reasons. But saying there's something visceral missing might be true, but it's not due to the progression of the auto industry. People here are complaining about drive by wire and electric power steering. AP2 S2000s have both. I switched largely because I wanted a 2 seat convertible. I was set on another NC miata, but early AP1s in good shape were close enough in price that I decided to go for something different. The powertrain is special in the car, but there's nothing else about the car that's inherent of its time period.
I would have bought an ND instead if I had the money.
I think you're taking your shifting interests and blaming it on the auto industry. It's not that engaging, interesting cars don't exist anymore. It's just that you don't care.
I'm not sure why you're saying the Mazda 3 is"bad". It's better than the car before it.
Ummmm.... the camaro thread is how long? We never talk about Teslas?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 23, 2016, 06:29:57 AM
Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?
Tesla
Hellcat
MX-5
M2
Camaro
Mustang
i3 or whatever it's called
Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today. Some of which are amazing to drive too. If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.
Quote from: MrH on May 23, 2016, 08:19:26 AM
Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today. Some of which are amazing to drive too. If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.
This
Quote from: MrH on May 23, 2016, 07:09:28 AM
I think the LaFerrari, P1, and 918 are today's poster cars. I think they're just hitting us at an older age, where we're thinking more about how financially impossible they are instead of what they're capable of.
As for the BRZ to S2k switch, I did it for a lot of reasons. But saying there's something visceral missing might be true, but it's not due to the progression of the auto industry. People here are complaining about drive by wire and electric power steering. AP2 S2000s have both. I switched largely because I wanted a 2 seat convertible. I was set on another NC miata, but early AP1s in good shape were close enough in price that I decided to go for something different. The powertrain is special in the car, but there's nothing else about the car that's inherent of its time period.
I would have bought an ND instead if I had the money.
I think you're taking your shifting interests and blaming it on the auto industry. It's not that engaging, interesting cars don't exist anymore. It's just that you don't care.
I don't think my interests have shifted, and if they did, they haven't shifted much. I still keep up with reviews and general car news. I just put coilovers on my Civic lol. I still play about 30-60 mins of racing games a day. "Forza" is a verb in my house. So I don't think my interest has waned much... I just have less time to dedicate to this stuff.
But there has definitely been a huge shift man. The industry has changed because consumer tastes have changed. I can count the # of manual transmission 6 cylinder sedans on sale with one hand. There was a point in time where Honda was selling the RSX, S2000, TSX, TL and NSX simultaneously... look at them now. So just in the working man's realm there has definitely been a bit of a slide. But even up in the "dreamer" realm things are a bit off. The LaFerrari and that whole class still has some buzz, but I'm certain with time people will stop giving a fuck about them like we have with the Enzo. However people STILL worship the F40, the Countach etc. It's the difference between another technical milestone and a full on cultural icon. I think BGK hit the nail on the head- for better or worse the car business is much more constrained than it used to be, and by extension cars have become a lot better objectively but a lot more forgettable as well.
Seriously- any time a new car comes out, no matter how awesome it is, it seems like we are done talking about it after like 2-3 months max. Why is that? Is it because of how we consume media or are the cars just not as interesting?
Quote from: MrH on May 23, 2016, 08:19:26 AM
Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today. Some of which are amazing to drive too. If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.
Nobody is saying the cars are bad, just not memorable or captivating. I drive different cars every chance I get :huh:
It's how we're consuming the info I think. Honda may not have a lot of enthusiast cars right now, but they just hunkered down during the recession when it came to enthusiast development. Now we're starting to see things come out from them again.
New Civic Type R is supposed to be incredible. Rumors of a new S2000 are going around. NSX came out.
And I think the P1 will be worshiped like the F40. Just needs some time.
Oh and
GT
I agree with that
CTR reviews are out and they are so-so. Same money as the Golf R class but not as good. Hardcore in a "teenager running a straight pipe and cut springs" way, not the neurotically perfect Type-R of the past. And rumors of returning S2Ks and the like have been swirling since their deaths. Plus look at the current NSX. I don't think anyone was expecting or wanting an NA3 but again this new one came and went w/o a peep.
The way we consume info may have a big impact though, I will give you that. Same time though the bulk of new cars are very iterative. One could literally probably make a formula to predict the specs of the next iteration of a car in a segment. Where is the fun in that, when a lot of the time the added performance comes with a loss of engagement and innovation?
In 15-20 years, how many new-gen Civics do you think will be riced or thrashed around an autox course or race track like the EF/EG/EKs are now? Driving involvement has gone down big time across the board, and not just because a lot of the sportier and more fun cars have been killed off.
Sporty has a great point about the F40. That car is still worshiped today while the F50 and Enzo have been largely forgotten. Same with E30 M3s. Sure, the E36 was a relative turd in comparison, but even E46's don't have (and probably never will have) the same sort of cult following. Cars as a whole have become a lot less engaging, which is why I think saying that there are better cars now than ever before is absurd. It's why everyone basically creamed their pants when Mazda made such a big effort to keep the ND true to its roots. No one else has been doing that and it shows.
I think the P1/LaFerrari/918 will be respected for the performance figures they can achieve but I still don't think they'll ever touch the 959/F40.
I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.
But I adored the Enzo and Veyron
Quote from: 2o6 on May 23, 2016, 11:25:43 AM
I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.
INFIDEL!!!!!!!
And I disagree about the E36. It was the "It Was Written" of the M3s. Hard to follow up on a complete game changer... but it was still excellent in its own right. For my money I'd go for the E36 10 out of 10 times. But I would probably get an E46 over any of the M3s that followed.
E36 is easily the most forgettable of the M3s. Not as raw or pure as the E30 and not as capable as the E46 and later generations. I've always looked at it the same as I view the S14 generation of Nissan Silvia: kind of watered down.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 23, 2016, 11:25:43 AM
I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.
But I adored the Enzo and Veyron
Exactly. I'm already starting to see that my car tastes are always going to be big into late 90's, early 2000's. Because that's what I fell in love with as a kid. FD RX-7, S2000, etc remind me of being younger.
When I'm 60, I'll probably swoon over the same cars still to some degree.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 23, 2016, 11:43:56 AM
INFIDEL!!!!!!!
And I disagree about the E36. It was the "It Was Written" of the M3s. Hard to follow up on a complete game changer... but it was still excellent in its own right. For my money I'd go for the E36 10 out of 10 times. But I would probably get an E46 over any of the M3s that followed.
Not really. Boring looks, watered down S50/S52 compared to the Euro spec, etc. The E46 was a much better M3.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on May 23, 2016, 11:07:31 AM
In 15-20 years, how many new-gen Civics do you think will be riced or thrashed around an autox course or race track like the EF/EG/EKs are now? Driving involvement has gone down big time across the board, and not just because a lot of the sportier and more fun cars have been killed off.
Sporty has a great point about the F40. That car is still worshiped today while the F50 and Enzo have been largely forgotten. Same with E30 M3s. Sure, the E36 was a relative turd in comparison, but even E46's don't have (and probably never will have) the same sort of cult following. Cars as a whole have become a lot less engaging, which is why I think saying that there are better cars now than ever before is absurd. It's why everyone basically creamed their pants when Mazda made such a big effort to keep the ND true to its roots. No one else has been doing that and it shows.
I think the P1/LaFerrari/918 will be respected for the performance figures they can achieve but I still don't think they'll ever touch the 959/F40.
The new Camaro v8 and v6 put up numbers and "feel" much better than the segment was expecting. I think the speed and weight of the new Miata shocked most when reviews came out.
On the high end? there's a few cars running around with 700-1,000hp so our expectations have gotten a collective meh. Bugatti would have to come out with a 3,000 hp 3,500-4,000 lb car for me to be wowed
Quote from: Cookie Monster on May 23, 2016, 12:11:46 PM
Not really. Boring looks, watered down S50/S52 compared to the Euro spec, etc. The E46 was a much better M3.
E46 was definitely better, but in many ways it was just a warmed over Euro E36. Even still though, I agree and I don't. US E36 is justifiably the red headed stepchild of the M3 line, but it was still brilliant and head and shoulders above anything like it for the $$$ in its day. I think it's fairer to look at it as a predecessor to the 330i ZHP and 335i than a real M3.
To be completely honest I would get an E36 over an E30 any day of the week. But the E30 is by far a more interesting and important car just from the simple fact that there would be no E36/E46/E90/F80 etc without it, and there was not much like it before it. That kind of boldness/risk is exactly what is missing today IMO.
It's pretty tough to give a shit about any of the megasuperduperabsurdcars, I'll give you that.
Quote from: MrH on May 23, 2016, 12:00:58 PM
Exactly. I'm already starting to see that my car tastes are always going to be big into late 90's, early 2000's. Because that's what I fell in love with as a kid. FD RX-7, S2000, etc remind me of being younger.
When I'm 60, I'll probably swoon over the same cars still to some degree.
That, or retro '90s cars. Such jelly bean!
Quote from: Rich on May 23, 2016, 12:19:53 PM
The new Camaro v8 and v6 put up numbers and "feel" much better than the segment was expecting. I think the speed and weight of the new Miata shocked most when reviews came out.
On the high end? there's a few cars running around with 700-1,000hp so our expectations have gotten a collective meh. Bugatti would have to come out with a 3,000 hp 3,500-4,000 lb car for me to be wowed
I would be more wowed by a car like VTEC Inside described- <3000lbs, practical, good steering, ~225HP with an obedient throttle pedal. It's easy to make a technological achievement than a simple driver's car. Toyobaru came very, very close but not quite there.
I think price of entry has really made cars less inspiring for young people to own. It's hard to get into a car when basically you need at least 3500 to find a runnin car, and insurance is basically unplayable for you if you're under 21.
You don't necessarily need $3500 to find a running car. Plus cars are lasting longer and longer now so even a 10 year old car with high miles still has a lot of life left in it.
Idk man, having bought and flipped cars anything under like 2k gets really dodgy or really boring.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 23, 2016, 11:25:43 AM
I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.
But I adored the Enzo and Veyron
+1
Mine were the 959, the "new" Dodge Ram look (previous to early 90s they were square up front). The Miata and the original SHO were my "want want want!" cars.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 23, 2016, 01:27:23 PM
Idk man, having bought and flipped cars anything under like 2k gets really dodgy or really boring.
The market changed with the 2008 recession- used cars are generally more expensive as less people buy new.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 23, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
The market changed with the 2008 recession- used cars are generally more expensive as less people buy new.
Cash for Clunkers also fucked things up a bit, but I still found my clean as fuck 4Runner for $2400... Never had a problem with it either.
And the market varies place to place. I assure you that a nice 1991 4Runner would not be $2400 here or probably in the greater Bay area.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on May 23, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
You don't necessarily need $3500 to find a running car. Plus cars are lasting longer and longer now so even a 10 year old car with high miles still has a lot of life left in it.
Used car prices have changed a lot man. My first Accord was really low mileage and 10 yrs old when I bought it... it was $2200. A 10 yr old Accord now is like $7K. Even a 10 yr old Civic which is a lot closer to my old Accord is still like $5-6K. And inflation has been mild so that's not really a factor. Plus millenials have more student loans and worse paying jobs now. $$$ is def a factor.
Quote from: Rupert on May 23, 2016, 01:42:31 PM
And the market varies place to place. I assure you that a nice 1991 4Runner would not be $2400 here or probably in the greater Bay area.
You wouldn't find a nice 91 4Runner here at all unless it was recently shipped in from the south or southwest. And then it would probably command a hefty price. Early 90s Toyotas native to this area dissolved a decade ago.
Quote from: Rupert on May 23, 2016, 01:42:31 PM
And the market varies place to place. I assure you that a nice 1991 4Runner would not be $2400 here or probably in the greater Bay area.
This is true. I just checked the prices of 4Runners here. Pretty sad state, although there's a not quite as nice '89 for $2800 that's tempting. Only 20k more miles but it's a 22RE (which is not a bad thing, just slow as hell).
Although, based on how fast I sold my 4Runner (sold it for $2300 in 15 min after I posted it at midnight) I think I just got a stupid good deal on it.
What's changing is the escalating immaturity and stunting in general of young people. Freedom and self-determination (the principal personification of which is one's own car), is being subverted by the nanny state/culture, distractions (social media, video games, etc.), elixirs (dope, obesity, etc.) and broken economics (high young adult unemployment, huge escalation in COL, etc).
For where we are headed on the subject simply look at Japan and its younger people - it is absolutely horrific.
So a few, somewhat rambling, thoughts on the topic...
I was somewhat thinking about this very topic a couple about a week ago. I was watching one of Matt Farah's One Take videos of him driving a 5th (final) generation Prelude that was essentially stock. This was one of the cars I aspired to own as a teenager in high school, but was just a bit too new and a bit too expensive for me to afford as a 17 year old kid (the oldest of them on the used lots would have only been about 3 years old at the time). As I watched, I felt the resurgence of the automotive enthusiasm I had when I was in my late teens and early 20s come bubbling back up to the surface. At that time, there were a lot of options for cool, fun, "enthusiast" cars out there that were 8-12 years old that a teenager might actually be able to afford and that weren't so old or so high mileage that they were a complete money-pit. Nissan 240SXs, Nissan NXs, Ford Probes, Mazda MX-6s, Mazda MX-3s, Honda Preludes, Honda CRXs, Acura Integras, Toyota Celicas, Toyota MR2s, 1st generation DSMs, Dodge Daytonas, Chevy Berettas, late 3rd or early 4th gen Camaros/Firebirds, late Fox and early SN95 Mustangs, late Fieros. Those with a bit more budget (or generous parents) might be able to swing a 3rd gen Supra, early N/A Z32 300ZX, Mitsubishi Starion, early N/A 3000GT, or FC RX-7.
Then I thought about what cars I'd be looking for today if I were a 17 or 18 year old auto enthusiast looking for a reasonably reliable, affordable, fun/sporty car that was 8-12 years old. It's a much smaller list today and many of the offerings are kind of meh. Acura RSX, Scion tC, Mini Cooper, early S197 Mustang, Hyundai Tiburon, early MS3, early 8th gen CSi or EP3 CSi hatch, Neon SRT, Cobalt SS, Ion Redline, blob-eye or early hawkeye WRX, maybe an early RX-8 or 350Z and... that's all I can think of.
Moving on to the next talking point, something someone else here already brought up, is that newer cars have gotten so much faster and more capable. The cars I listed from my teenage years pretty much capped out at 200 hp. Most of those cars were <165 hp. I'd have no qualms handing a 17 year old the keys to a 160 hp sporty car. Yeah, it's still enough to get into some trouble with, but compared to something like a Neon SRT, Supercharged Cobalt, WRX, 350Z, or MS3? And then I look at what is for sale within the past 4-5 years. I remember when I was a teen and the going advice was for parents to not let their kids get a V8 Mustang or Camaro, which at the time were "only" making like 240-275 hp, because it would be certain death for a new driver to have that much power. Then I look at the spec sheets for the slowest Mustangs and Camaros today and they're putting down more power than the V8s were back in the day. I'm not complaining, but it's pretty astounding. And now I feel old.
I really like Japanese economy cars through the mid-90s. Simple, honest, solid, simple styling, featureless... I would think about getting an old Honda if I had a long commute.
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet.
Back when I was eagerly pouring over car mags, anticipating driver's ed. and wondering what kind of car I could afford on a teenager's money cars were still aspirational for teenagers. Most middle class families had just 1 car. I'd guess no more than 15% of my class had their own car they drove to school. Wheels were freedom and mobility.
I'd wager today most people under 30 grew up with their families owning multiple vehicles. it's hard to get excited about something you've had access to for as long as you remember.
Quote from: MX793 on May 23, 2016, 06:30:39 PM
So a few, somewhat rambling, thoughts on the topic...
Moving on to the next talking point, something someone else here already brought up, is that newer cars have gotten so much faster and more capable. The cars I listed from my teenage years pretty much capped out at 200 hp. Most of those cars were <165 hp. I'd have no qualms handing a 17 year old the keys to a 160 hp sporty car. Yeah, it's still enough to get into some trouble with, but compared to something like a Neon SRT, Supercharged Cobalt, WRX, 350Z, or MS3? And then I look at what is for sale within the past 4-5 years. I remember when I was a teen and the going advice was for parents to not let their kids get a V8 Mustang or Camaro, which at the time were "only" making like 240-275 hp, because it would be certain death for a new driver to have that much power. Then I look at the spec sheets for the slowest Mustangs and Camaros today and they're putting down more power than the V8s were back in the day. I'm not complaining, but it's pretty astounding. And now I feel old.
Not saying you are wrong, but the only kid in my school who died in a car accident my senior year died when his VW beetle failed to negotiate a right angle turn on a country road and center punched a tree. Power crs can be deadly, but so can slugs when driven carelessly. The difference is it's so much easier to get in to trouble as HP increases.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 22, 2016, 08:38:32 PM
Only electronic crap...and not the electronic workings of it, just the use of it.
LOL, so true. It's like how everybody uses computers to do shit in Idiocracy but nobody knows what they actually do.
Why rely on OEMs to provide the captivation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAGzxOO0J70 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAGzxOO0J70)
Quote from: CLKid on May 23, 2016, 06:59:55 PM
Not saying you are wrong, but the only kid in my school who died in a car accident my senior year died when his VW beetle failed to negotiate a right angle turn on a country road and center punched a tree. Power crs can be deadly, but so can slugs when driven carelessly. The difference is it's so much easier to get in to trouble as HP increases.
We didn't have any deaths during my high school time, but a girl was coming back from graveyard shift summer before senior year and dozed off and went into a ditch (lived in the country). Broke her back, barely made graduation.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 23, 2016, 08:20:17 PM
We didn't have any deaths during my high school time, but a girl was coming back from graveyard shift summer before senior year and dozed off and went into a ditch (lived in the country). Broke her back, barely made graduation.
We lost people every year except for our Senior Year! The worst was when I was a Junior and I lost 3 friends (One Survived) in a car crash (In a Dodge Diplomat) on the night they Graduated! My 10th grad year we lost a female friend who was passenger in a car struck by a truck while making a U Turn on the freeway! My freshman year we lost a Senior that had pulled over to change a flat and a passing truck lost a wheel that struck him and killed him!
I really like the E36. I think any 3 series up until this current generation is pretty sweet.
(http://www.bmwmregistry.com/faq/E36M3Evocoupeandcab-1.jpg)
E36 M3 cab would be a nice road trip car, I think.
Plus, M3 sedan!
(http://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/e36-bmw-m3-006.jpg)
Lots of good points made. Especially about the E36 M3 sedan. One got sold under my nose before I bought the Z. I kind of wish I had kept looking.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 22, 2016, 08:38:32 PM
Millennials don't like mechanical things. Only electronic crap...and not the electronic workings of it, just the use of it.
I bet there are just as many tech nerds now who fiddle around with building PCs, configuring fancy servers, etc., as there were kids who fiddled around with cars 30 years ago. :huh: Plus electronics are much more attainable.
Quote from: Rupert on May 22, 2016, 11:48:58 PM
You have that reversed. I'm not good at it because I don't like it.
Also, I'm good at some of it-- lots better than most dummies with a wrench. I'm great at running wires. :lol: Still don't like it though.
I like the feeling of accomplishment after I finish a job, but the job itself is not fun.
Quote from: MX793 on May 23, 2016, 06:30:39 PM
there were a lot of options for cool, fun, "enthusiast" cars out there that were 8-12 years old that a teenager might actually be able to afford and that weren't so old or so high mileage that they were a complete money-pit. Nissan 240SXs, Nissan NXs, Ford Probes, Mazda MX-6s, Mazda MX-3s, Honda Preludes, Honda CRXs, Acura Integras, Toyota Celicas, Toyota MR2s, 1st generation DSMs, Dodge Daytonas, Chevy Berettas, late 3rd or early 4th gen Camaros/Firebirds, late Fox and early SN95 Mustangs, late Fieros. Those with a bit more budget (or generous parents) might be able to swing a 3rd gen Supra, early N/A Z32 300ZX, Mitsubishi Starion, early N/A 3000GT, or FC RX-7.
Then I thought about what cars I'd be looking for today if I were a 17 or 18 year old auto enthusiast looking for a reasonably reliable, affordable, fun/sporty car that was 8-12 years old. It's a much smaller list today and many of the offerings are kind of meh. Acura RSX, Scion tC, Mini Cooper, early S197 Mustang, Hyundai Tiburon, early MS3, early 8th gen CSi or EP3 CSi hatch, Neon SRT, Cobalt SS, Ion Redline, blob-eye or early hawkeye WRX, maybe an early RX-8 or 350Z and... that's all I can think of.
I was thinking about this.... are the current options really that meh? Looks wise I guess the older cars had the upper hand, but even something measly like an 8th gen CSi would give a lot of those cars the business, and be more fun to drive too.
Bigger issue today is how much used car prices have skyrocketed, putting what should be a beater out of reach for a lot of people.
Wait, who's Jethro? I've been wondering that for a while now. Bovingdon?
I think yesteryear boys dreamed and salivated over cars more than they do today because there are other entertainment pursuits available now. Video games are much better now, almost all homes have computers and smart phones, and social media is very advanced and for most kids, very time consuming. You still have your Fast and Furious crowd but the percentage of kids who have car posters in their rooms I would guess is lower now than yesteryear.
Most compact cars these days blow the doors off the coupes of yesteryear.
Also, people my age like crossovers and SUV's.
Quote from: veeman on May 24, 2016, 08:23:23 AM
I think yesteryear boys dreamed and salivated over cars more than they do today because there are other entertainment pursuits available now. Video games are much better now,
Video games? We had electromechanical pinball machines. You hopped in your car and drove to the bus station or self serve laundry to play them.
Quote from: veeman on May 24, 2016, 08:23:23 AM
I think yesteryear boys dreamed and salivated over cars more than they do today because there are other entertainment pursuits available now. Video games are much better now, almost all homes have computers and smart phones, and social media is very advanced and for most kids, very time consuming. You still have your Fast and Furious crowd but the percentage of kids who have car posters in their rooms I would guess is lower now than yesteryear.
Also true. Wifey is into old movies and music.... personally sometimes I find it amazing that people found that stuff entertaining :lol:
It's no wonder black people invented rock and roll and jazz. All that Bing Crosby shit was horrible
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 24, 2016, 07:04:53 AM
I was thinking about this.... are the current options really that meh? Looks wise I guess the older cars had the upper hand, but even something measly like an 8th gen CSi would give a lot of those cars the business, and be more fun to drive too.
Bigger issue today is how much used car prices have skyrocketed, putting what should be a beater out of reach for a lot of people.
No way. 8th gen CSi feels shitty. Doesn't want to rev as freely, steering feels numb as fuck, car feels too big, etc. My friend's old '92 Integra GS-R was a fucking riot in comparison. VTEC would kick in so hard. It wasn't as fast as the CSi but was so much more fun and engaging.
I liked the 8th generation a lot.
Quote from: CLKid on May 24, 2016, 10:13:22 AM
Video games? We had electromechanical pinball machines. You hopped in your car and drove to the bus station or self serve laundry to play them.
You are older than I :lol:
My friends had Atari and Commodore 64s. Later on in highschool I remember a sleep over birthday party where we played Tecmo Bowl on Nintendo all night long. There are young dudes now that die playing video games for 2 or 3 days straight without sleeping binging on energy drinks. You probably never heard that happening with pinball :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 24, 2016, 10:42:36 AM
It's no wonder black people invented rock and roll and jazz. All that Bing Crosby shit was horrible
Umm, Jazz is older than Bing...
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 24, 2016, 05:48:03 AM
I like the feeling of accomplishment after I finish a job, but the job itself is not fun.
Pretty much. There are some things I like some times when I'm in the right mood. Other times I'm not happy to suffer setbacks or to think about what I'm doing fully (almost guaranteeing setbacks). In general, I can do some rad shit in the making stuff department if I take my time and think everything through beforehand so I can cruise and focus all zen-like, but if I can't get there, it can get ugly fast. Personal failing, I guess.