From a friend...
My Audi Q5's engine died heavily damaged because Audi chose not to recall those engines even though they new they have a faulty timing chain tensioner design. Over a short 170 miles drive to Canada my car went from "I was just serviced and running like a champion" to "I'm dead" with no service light coming up until after its death. (Also, side note, towing from Canada is fun! And complicated.)
Audi recently settled a class action suit about this issue. The suit however seems to only cover the timing chain tensioner and related parts, but a dead engine is "incidental damage" that they don't cover (or very partially based on age of the car and mileage) through the suit, which was however for people who had an issue before. It also extended the chain and tensioner warranty to 100,000 miles.
I bought the car new at my dealership and had it serviced perfectly, always there. They know that and tell me that my service history is absolutely impeccable.
My dealership tells me that Audi wants to help and that my cost would be "only" $5,600 dollars. For a dead engine that happened with absolutely no warning for a problem they knew about and never told me about to proactively fix (replace the defective part).
I plan to walk my way up all the way to Audi America to argue that they should cover the whole work (or this for sure will be my last Audi). Anybody has experience doing that, and has tips? I am starting with the dealership service director tomorrow.
How many miles on the car?
I didn't get anywhere with Nissan until I hired a lemon law attorney. I don't know if this qualifies as lemon law, though.
Quote from: shp4man on April 16, 2019, 06:58:40 PM
How many miles on the car?
This is important. Dealers aren't going to goodwill replace a timing chain and head(s) for a car with upwards of like 145k....
End of the discussion. :ohyeah:
(https://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/h/honda/cr-v/honda_cr-v_182.jpeg)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 16, 2019, 07:07:41 PM
End of the discussion. :ohyeah:
(https://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/h/honda/cr-v/honda_cr-v_182.jpeg)
Ehhh, Honda has been having issues in some states with oil/fuel dilution in the 1.5T model.
Doesn't seem to affect the Civic and Accord, since they use a different variant of that engine and aren't as prone to doing that.
Never own a VW product outside of warranty
A VW product with a faulty timing belt/chain tensioner? I'm SHOCKED. Would've thought they'd have gotten their shit together after the 1.8T fiasco 15 years ago... Then again, they never actually corrected the tensioner design flaws on the 1.8T. They just significantly shortened their timing belt inspection/replacement intervals.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 16, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
Never own a VW product outside of warranty
This is a lesson I learned. Parts are never "Defective" per VW, they just updated the parts later to "improve performance". (Note: improving performance is code for "blows up and dies less frequently than it used to".)
Oops sorry I didn't see that question having been asked earlier. Sorry to hear that this happened to your friend, hope he's able to get some kind of resolution out of it.
Do you know anyone with a large social media presence? Seems like using that to spread bad publicity is the only way to get a lot of companies to give a shit anymore.
Quote from: shp4man on April 16, 2019, 06:58:40 PM
How many miles on the car?
Very few! Certainly lower than 50k. I think it's like a couple years old.
Quote from: Laconian on April 16, 2019, 09:29:40 PM
Very few! Certainly lower than 50k. I think it's like a couple years old.
How is that not under warranty then?
What was the original warranty, and how far out of it is the car?
I still want a Golf/GTI
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on April 16, 2019, 07:02:23 PM
I didn't get anywhere with Nissan until I hired a lemon law attorney. I don't know if this qualifies as lemon law, though.
Yeah, but that's because you owned a Hyundai.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 04:57:57 AM
How is that not under warranty then?
What was the original warranty, and how far out of it is the car?
4 years, 50,000 miles. Pretty sad for a premium car, imho.
I am presuming its out of warranty?
FWIW, my experience with Audi was pretty good. The only "significant" issue I ever had was that the (manual) transmission on my S4 developed a bit of a notch going in to third gear at some point (mileage in the 40's IIRC). The dealer couldn't figure it out. To me it wasn't that big a deal so I wasn't planning on pressing the issue (it wasn't that it couldn't get in to third gear...it just felt a little notchier than the other gears). The dealer talked to Audi to see if they had any idea what was wrong, and Audi told them to install a new transmission. I had a loaner for a couple of weeks (Q7) while they waited for the parts to arrive so I felt fine about it even though it seemed like overkill.
Something seems a bit off. If the car is around two years/40k, I would think it would be under warranty (5y/100.000 kms here).
if not, getting brand spanking new engine installed for $5600, isn't that bad. Is it the 2.0t TFSI?
"The only significant issue was that it needed a new transmission in the first 40,000 miles."
Am I on crazy pills? That sounds absolutely unacceptable.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 06:56:18 AM
"The only significant issue was that it needed a new transmission in the first 40,000 miles."
Am I on crazy pills? That sounds absolutely unacceptable.
:lol: vorsprung durch technik!
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 06:56:18 AM
"The only significant issue was that it needed a new transmission in the first 40,000 miles."
Am I on crazy pills? That sounds absolutely unacceptable.
You need to view the world through the eyes of a repeat VW customer.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 06:56:18 AM
"The only significant issue was that it needed a new transmission in the first 40,000 miles."
Am I on crazy pills? That sounds absolutely unacceptable.
Who said it was "acceptable."
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 17, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
Who said it was "acceptable."
You said your experience was "pretty good," and you put quotes around "significant" when mentioning the issue.
Quote from: MX793 on April 17, 2019, 07:19:53 AM
You need to view the world through the eyes of a repeat VW customer.
I've written off a lot of the criticisms of VWAG as the rantings of anti-VW (and especially BMW) fanboys.
The defenses that owners put forth though are more damning. Its like I'm hearing about what a good husband is from the viewpoint of a beaten wife.
We really had no problems with the Rabbit, except for a cooling fan and the vacuum pump.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 07:35:03 AM
You said your experience was "pretty good," and you put quotes around "significant" when mentioning the issue.
You're a pretty bright guy so I am going to assume you are being intentionally obtuse.
I said, and here I will quote:
Quotemy experience with Audi was pretty good
The reason significant was in quotes is because, given my experience with the transmission, it wasn't obvious to me (nor was it obvious to the dealer) that a new transmission was required.
The point of the post was just that, in my limited experience, Audi (the company, as opposed to the dealer or the car) seemed more than willing to fix cars that had problems even if it meant an extreme solution. Based on my experience I would have expected Audi to replace an engine without question...presuming the car is under warranty.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 07:37:42 AM
I've written off a lot of the criticisms of VWAG as the rantings of anti-VW (and especially BMW) fanboys.
The defenses that owners put forth though are more damning. Its like I'm hearing about what a good husband is from the viewpoint of a beaten wife.
Audi isn't the same as VW. I wouldn't expect to get the same level of customer service from VW as I would from Audi.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 06:56:18 AM
"The only significant issue was that it needed a new transmission in the first 40,000 miles."
Am I on crazy pills? That sounds absolutely unacceptable.
QFT.
I choose to accept that "pretty good" = he liked the car(s) and that the transmission was replaced under warranty.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 17, 2019, 07:52:42 AM
You're a pretty bright guy so I am going to assume you are being intentionally obtuse.
I said, and here I will quote:
The reason significant was in quotes is because, given my experience with the transmission, it wasn't obvious to me (nor was it obvious to the dealer) that a new transmission was required.
The point of the post was just that, in my limited experience, Audi (the company, as opposed to the dealer or the car) seemed more than willing to fix cars that had problems even if it meant an extreme solution. Based on my experience I would have expected Audi to replace an engine without question...presuming the car is under warranty.
No, not obtuse at all, but now that I've seemed to offend you without meaning to, my previous opinion is reinforced.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 17, 2019, 08:02:47 AM
QFT.
I choose to accept that "pretty good" = he liked the car(s) and that the transmission was replaced under warranty.
It was more limited than that, it was simply a reference to how they (Audi, the company) handled the issue. My perception was that they went above and beyond to fix what was, to my limited knowledge of transmissions, a minor problem.
As you guys note I have had more than my share of Audi and VW cars (an A4, a GTI, and S4, and now a Golf R). That transmission replacement is the only major problem I ever had with any of them. None of them ever broke down or had any major mechanical or electrical issues. And FWIW, that GTI I had went to my brother for 4-5 years after I had it and he never had any issues with it either. :huh:
I know statistically VW's aren't great, but Audi actually rates pretty high in most quality surveys IIRC. Other than CarSPIN I don't think Audi is considered to be risky make to own.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 08:04:06 AM
No, not obtuse at all, but now that I've seemed to offend you without meaning to, my previous opinion is reinforced.
Good luck with that I guess.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 17, 2019, 05:03:14 AM
Yeah, but that's because you owned a Hyundai.
My Hyundai went to the dealer once for a broken sunvisor. It was my fault because my fat head banged into it. That was a great little cheap car. My cousin has it now.
Idk sometimes shit happens. If a part gets replaced under warranty I'm less inclined to care.
Quote from: Laconian on April 16, 2019, 06:52:29 PM
From a friend...
My Audi Q5's engine died heavily damaged because Audi chose not to recall those engines even though they new they have a faulty timing chain tensioner design. Over a short 170 miles drive to Canada my car went from "I was just serviced and running like a champion" to "I'm dead" with no service light coming up until after its death. (Also, side note, towing from Canada is fun! And complicated.)
Audi recently settled a class action suit about this issue. The suit however seems to only cover the timing chain tensioner and related parts, but a dead engine is "incidental damage" that they don't cover (or very partially based on age of the car and mileage) through the suit, which was however for people who had an issue before. It also extended the chain and tensioner warranty to 100,000 miles.
I bought the car new at my dealership and had it serviced perfectly, always there. They know that and tell me that my service history is absolutely impeccable.
My dealership tells me that Audi wants to help and that my cost would be "only" $5,600 dollars. For a dead engine that happened with absolutely no warning for a problem they knew about and never told me about to proactively fix (replace the defective part).
I plan to walk my way up all the way to Audi America to argue that they should cover the whole work (or this for sure will be my last Audi). Anybody has experience doing that, and has tips? I am starting with the dealership service director tomorrow.
So........is there proof that the timing chain tensioner was the cause of his engine failure? If not, he's focusing on the wrong fuckin' thing. You can't just point at a known problem the second anything goes wrong and expect to get a free engine.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 17, 2019, 08:21:57 AM
Idk sometimes shit happens. If a part gets replaced under warranty I'm less inclined to care.
Some things, sure.
Major things are a huge red flag.
The transmission on the Acadia was replaced under warranty; and then again out of warranty. GM was a bitch about it too. I wouldn't make excuses for that transmission, and I sure as hell won't defend GM warranty department, or the dealer that sold me that car. If they had been forthcoming about the known problems with that transmission and worked to help replace it, I'd be less inclined to shit on them, but still wouldn't count the experience as "mostly positive."
I think you are projecting your experience onto everyone else. Sounds like SJ had no such issues with VW :huh:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 17, 2019, 08:33:13 AM
I think you are projecting your experience onto everyone else. Sounds like SJ had no such issues with VW :huh:
Audi. He expects less from VW.
I jist think companies that can't make a reliable product need to be called out on it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 08:35:18 AM
I jist think companies that can't make a reliable product need to be called out on it.
They are, regularly. Hell, there are companies making reliable cars today that are still getting shitted on for the crap they made decades ago.
He had 4 VWAG products... only one had a problem and they took care of it. What else is he supposed to say? :confused:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 17, 2019, 08:40:15 AM
They are, regularly. Hell, there are companies making reliable cars today that are still getting shitted on for the crap they made decades ago.
He had 4 VWAG products... only one had a problem and they took care of it. What else is he supposed to say? :confused:
You don't have to be my white knight. :lol:
Soup is welcome to his opinion. :ohyeah:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 17, 2019, 08:40:15 AM
They are, regularly. Hell, there are companies making reliable cars today that are still getting shitted on for the crap they made decades ago.
He had 4 VWAG products... only one had a problem and they took care of it. What else is he supposed to say? :confused:
I don't keep track of how many and which cars he's owned; if that's the only major problem amongst four vehickes, that changes things a bit- at least as far as his personal experience goes.
Statistically though, they don't seem to fair well, especially for a brand that isn't exactly at the entry level of the market. If Kia or Mitsubishi had these same sort of issues, they'd be roasted. Nissan has had serious issues with their CVTs and the whole brand has suffered. Yet VW and Audi fare worse in most reliability surveys and their owners still say they love them. Its weird man. These aren't handmade Italian sportscars where you trade predictability for passion, yet the owners treat them as such.
My Sonic had a fucked synchro and my transmission got warranty replaced. 100k miles later it's doing fine.
I think the majority of VWs are probably mostly trouble-free. Or their issues are more minor annoyances than catastrophic. Most of my VW's issues are of the latter variety. But a lot of it is stuff that you don't tend to see on modern cars. Worse, most issues I've had weren't isolated incidents when I googled them.
I'm not sure I've ever owned a truly trouble-free car.
I generally have a positive opinion of my Mazda, but to date that is the only car I've owned that stranded me (accessory belt pulley issue). It also had serious corrosion issues (a widespread problem with Mazda in general). The belt pulley was inconvenient, but shit happens and Mazda took care of me. There was a TSB and there was an improved replacement part. I also had a failed airbag sensor, which was part of a widespread recall due to a manufacturing flaw (not Mazda's fault). A fault light lit up days after I got the recall letter. The corrosion, well, that put me off of Mazda as a year-round DD as long as I live someplace with snowy winters, until I see a solid track record that Mazda has improved their paint over the past 10 years.
I also make some distinction between QA slip ups and design flaws. My VW's issues are predominantly of the "poor design" variety.
Also, it's usually standard procedure these days to throw parts at a car rather than rebuilding anything. I'm I wouldn't be upset at a total replacement for a part that likely could be rebuilt.
I like this new Soup DeSavage.
D'oh, sorry, I mistook his Q5 for another Q5.
8 years, close to 100k miles.
Quote from: Laconian on April 17, 2019, 11:00:11 AM
D'oh, sorry, I mistook his Q5 for another Q5.
8 years, close to 100k miles.
Oh.
I don't think he can reasonably expect much more than what he's been offered.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
Oh.
I don't think he can reasonably expect much more than what he's been offered.
Yeah same. Audi (or the dealer) may good faith offer some compensation, but to expect them to do it out of pocket is kind of stretching it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 08:54:51 AM
I don't keep track of how many and which cars he's owned;
I don't either... here's where I got that info :hammerhead:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 17, 2019, 08:09:24 AM
As you guys note I have had more than my share of Audi and VW cars (an A4, a GTI, and S4, and now a Golf R).
VWAG is def less reliable than, say, Toyota... and they make a lot of infuriating design choices... but I think they have finally got their shit together.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 17, 2019, 11:12:47 AM
I don't either... here's where I got that info :hammerhead:
VWAG is def less reliable than, say, Toyota... and they make a lot of infuriating design choices... but I think they have finally got their shit together.
Which was of course, stated afterwards.
Quote from: Laconian on April 17, 2019, 11:00:11 AM
D'oh, sorry, I mistook his Q5 for another Q5.
8 years, close to 100k miles.
If they are installing a new engine and the owners share is only 5600, off the top of my head that seems like kind of a good deal. I would think it means they are covering close to half the cost (possibly more, depending on which engine it has...I am assuming it's the 2.0T).
Agreed. They have improved leaps and bounds.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 17, 2019, 11:12:47 AM
I don't either... here's where I got that info :hammerhead:
VWAG is def less reliable than, say, Toyota... and they make a lot of infuriating design choices... but I think they have finally got their shit together.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 16, 2019, 07:11:11 PM
Ehhh, Honda has been having issues in some states with oil/fuel dilution in the 1.5T model.
Doesn't seem to affect the Civic and Accord, since they use a different variant of that engine and aren't as prone to doing that.
Fake News. Japanese cars never have problems. Ever. :tounge:
I'm not really sure if an 8 year old, 100K mile engine should really be Audi's issue at this point honestly. This baby ain't new no more.
Quote from: Laconian on April 17, 2019, 11:00:11 AM
D'oh, sorry, I mistook his Q5 for another Q5.
8 years, close to 100k miles.
Yeahhhhh not happening. I understand he's upset, but he's realllllly reaching here.
Quote from: giant_mtb on April 17, 2019, 01:18:52 PM
Yeahhhhh not happening. I understand he's upset, but he's realllllly reaching here.
Yeah once I discovered that I told him "sorry dude, VW gonna VW".
His previous car was a Duratec Mazda 6. The engine failed on that car too!
Quote from: Laconian on April 17, 2019, 02:22:26 PM
Yeah once I discovered that I told him "sorry dude, VW gonna VW".
His previous car was a Duratec Mazda 6. The engine failed on that car too!
I'm gonna drive my Mazda6 until the engine dies. 171k and still chugging.
That's a lot of engine failures! How often does he check his oil?
Tru dat! It's like trying to decide between chlamydia and HIV. 🤔
Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 17, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
Fake News. Japanese cars never have problems. Ever. :tounge:
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 17, 2019, 03:21:12 PM
That's a lot of engine failures! How often does he check his oil?
Yeah, I would wonder about that.
Quote from: Xer0 on April 17, 2019, 01:17:27 PM
I'm not really sure if an 8 year old, 100K mile engine should really be Audi's issue at this point honestly. This baby ain't new no more.
Well the bad publicity of having an engine blow up with no warning at under 100k is certainly their problem.
It can't be bad publicity if it's user error. 🤔
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 17, 2019, 03:31:04 PM
Well the bad publicity of having an engine blow up with no warning at under 100k is certainly their problem.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 17, 2019, 03:31:04 PM
Well the bad publicity of having an engine blow up with no warning at under 100k is certainly their problem.
You think Audi cares?
Did somebody push the red button? 🤔
The only car I've owned that had engine issues was a 1979 Ford Fairmont with the I-6 and that was because I didn't check the oil. But crap happens!
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 17, 2019, 03:28:28 PM
Yeah, I would wonder about that.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 17, 2019, 03:43:26 PM
You think Audi cares?
(https://pictures.dealer.com/a/audikirkwoodaoa/0035/37a9fbc426e80779a6f1cb3ec4dee7aex.jpg)
🤔
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 17, 2019, 03:43:40 PM
The only car I've owned that had engine issues was a 1979 Ford Fairmont with the I-6 and that was because I didn't check the oil. But crap happens!
Only engine I've ruined is a 350 SBC because I was in a hurry to swap the heads before race weekend and put stock length pushrods in it instead of +0.10 inch pushrods.
:lol: Hence...user error!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 17, 2019, 03:53:42 PM
Only engine I've ruined is a 350 SBC because I was in a hurry to swap the heads before race weekend and put stock length pushrods in it instead of +0.10 inch pushrods.
I set a Land Cruiser on fire, but in the engine's defense, it was still running when I shut it off, and the fuel lines were on fire at that point.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 17, 2019, 03:53:42 PM
Only engine I've ruined is a 350 SBC because I was in a hurry to swap the heads before race weekend and put stock length pushrods in it instead of +0.10 inch pushrods.
Didn't you have a blown engine on your drive home some time ago?
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 17, 2019, 04:20:13 PM
Didn't you have a blown engine on your drive home some time ago?
Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
It survived almost 2 years with the wrong pushrods before it broke a valve.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 17, 2019, 04:56:07 PM
Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
It survived almost 2 years with the wrong pushrods before it broke a valve.
Can you not just take up the slack by tightening the rocker arm a bit moar?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on April 17, 2019, 05:39:24 PM
Can you not just take up the slack by tightening the rocker arm a bit moar?
Yes but the geometry being off by even that little ends up wearing through stuff over time
Quote from: 2o6 on April 17, 2019, 03:43:26 PM
You think Audi cares?
Do I think that Audi executives are actively worried about this one instance? No.
Do I think that Audi wants me as a customer, but that this event will make me less likely to purchase an Audi? Yes.
Whether or not they care, things like these have an effect on their business. Which is why I asked if they knew anyone with a large social media presence. Enough bad publicity will get shit done.
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 17, 2019, 03:41:56 PM
It can't be bad publicity if it's user error. 🤔
Other than one mention of another engine failure, nothing indicates that it's user error unless I accidentally skipped over something in this thread.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 17, 2019, 04:07:33 PM
I set a Land Cruiser on fire, but in the engine's defense, it was still running when I shut it off, and the fuel lines were on fire at that point.
:hmm: I suppose that's probably not the engine's fault. Maybe.
I remember when the Camry took a trailer hitch through the front of the radiator, which then pushed the compressor into some other thing and into some other thing and it was leaking its vital fluids all over the road but just sitting there idling calmly as if it wasn't about to die a horrible death... When I sneezed in the Passat I'm pretty sure an error code would pop up.
Quote from: thewizard16 on April 18, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
:hmm: I suppose that's probably not the engine's fault. Maybe.
I remember when the Camry took a trailer hitch through the front of the radiator, which then pushed the compressor into some other thing and into some other thing and it was leaking its vital fluids all over the road but just sitting there idling calmly as if it wasn't about to die a horrible death... When I sneezed in the Passat I'm pretty sure an error code would pop up.
No, it was an electrical relay failure. It was also 15 years old and had 229,000 miles on it. I broke the front hub on the current one too, but it was put together wrong in the first place, and I was backing a trailer that was 2000 lbs over the rated capacity up a hill in the ice.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 18, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
...and I was backing a trailer that was 2000 lbs over the rated capacity up a hill in the ice.
lol
Did you share those details in the original thread? For some reason I thought you were just driving it normally.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 18, 2019, 10:12:25 AM
lol
Did you share those details in the original thread? For some reason I thought you were just driving it normally.
I thought so.
edit; I didn't mention the weight- which I didn't know until a couple of weeks after the incident.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 18, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
No, it was an electrical relay failure. It was also 15 years old and had 229,000 miles on it. I broke the front hub on the current one too, but it was put together wrong in the first place, and I was backing a trailer that was 2000 lbs over the rated capacity up a hill in the ice.
:huh: I just don't see any way you could have avoided that situation.
:lol:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 18, 2019, 10:12:25 AM
lol
Did you share those details in the original thread? For some reason I thought you were just driving it normally.
It sounds like normal operation to me. :lol: