I guess the answer isn't CR-V...
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/05/cars/consumer-reports-honda-cr-v-engine-trouble/index.html
"The problem occurs in 2017 and 2018 CR-Vs with Honda's new 1.5-liter turbocharged engine. There are more than 500,000 of them on the roads in the United States. Somehow, gasoline is getting into the car's lubricating oil which should not normally happen, Consumer Reports said. That dilutes the engine oil making it less effective at lubricating the engine. Over time, that can lead to engine damage and loss of power or stalling, especially on cold days or in heavy traffic."
Gas in the oil?? How the frig.
Sounds like their carbs are flooding
I don't really trust turbo motors. I'd be wary of buying one. That's just me, though.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 05, 2018, 01:49:53 PM
Carbs?
Its what bread's made out of. Bread is wheat, wheat is a plant. Most dinosaurs were plant eaters. Oil is made from dinosaurs. Hence, gas in the oil. Perfectly normal.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 05, 2018, 02:50:09 PM
Its what bread's made out of. Bread is wheat, wheat is a plant. Most dinosaurs were plant eaters. Oil is made from dinosaurs. Hence, gas in the oil. Perfectly normal.
Damn, son.
:golfclap:
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 05, 2018, 03:03:11 PM
Damn, son.
Next, we will learn how to use sheep spleens to predict the weather.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 05, 2018, 02:50:09 PM
Its what bread's made out of. Bread is wheat, wheat is a plant. Most dinosaurs were plant eaters. Oil is made from dinosaurs. Hence, gas in the oil. Perfectly normal.
Ah, yes.
:confused:
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 05, 2018, 04:02:40 PM
Ah, yes.
:confused:
In older cars, gasoline was too powerful to be burned directly by the engine, and had to be returned to bread form before being injected into the engine. Hence cars were fitted with carburetors to re-carbify the fuel.
Yeast injection.
Turbos have an oil line and a coolant line. No fuel in the turbo, so it must be some kind of a control issue.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 05, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
In older cars, gasoline was too powerful to be burned directly by the engine, and had to be returned to bread form before being injected into the engine. Hence cars were fitted with carburetors to re-carbify the fuel.
That might explain why it always smelled like toast inside my old Mercury.
Gives you a higher breadline.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 05, 2018, 04:31:27 PM
That might explain why it always smelled like toast inside my old Mercury.
Or you were having a stroke.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 05, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
In older cars, gasoline was too powerful to be burned directly by the engine, and had to be returned to bread form before being injected into the engine. Hence cars were fitted with carburetors to re-carbify the fuel.
Those cars cost a lot of dough.
Working on them is such a PITA.
Without yeast injection you'll get a low breadline and it'll loaf along. Such a PITA.
What's it sound like?
Bunbunbunbunbunbunbunbunbunbunbunbun....
I'm on a roll.
:lol:
FAKE NEWS.
No such thing as a Honda with problems. Stupid Leftist-Green media.
:tounge:
:popcorn:
Wait a minute. I just can't believe this of my beloved. I need to go into denial to protect myself from this trauma.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 06, 2018, 01:55:11 PM
Wait a minute. I just can't believe this of my beloved. I need to go into denial to protect myself from this trauma.
Get an M3.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 06, 2018, 01:55:11 PM
Wait a minute. I just can't believe this of my beloved. I need to go into denial to protect myself from this trauma.
Accuse CR of sexual impropriety in college. That will get the heat off the CR-V's tail :lol:
Ahh sounds like it's making oil.
Making oil seems like it's quite rare in the automotive world, but rather common in the marine outboard world. Basically what happens is the engine is running too cold and the fuel condenses out of the mixture and basically flows past the piston rings into the crank. It's called making oil because when you go check the oil, the level keeps going up and up, creating the illusion of the engine making more oil. This is bad because fuel doesn't lubricate like oil does.
This is a much bigger problem in the boating outboard world because outboard motors run quite a bit cooler than automotive ones, as they use the raw water from their surroundings to cool the engine rather than a radiator and closed circuit. They are often run for extended periods at idle at start up as the boat drives out of the river or harbor in the no wake zone. An engine notorious for making oil is unfortunately the one on our boat, the Yamaha 4.2L V6. The problem is made worse by the plasma cylinder walls which make it difficult to seat the piston rings. Basically the way around this is the run the piss out of the boat early on in the break in period to seat the rings. Also you should run the engine flat out at max RPM and max load for a bit every time you use it.
While it would be amusing to watch soccer moms top out their CR-Vs every day, I don't think it would be a viable solution for the CR-V.
Plasma cylinder walls?
I'm less than happy. My plan was to keep this car for 10 years. Now I see a complicated future of class action law suits, lemon law buybacks, warranty extensions, vastly reduced residual values, clueless & defensive dealers etc.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2018, 08:02:36 AM
Plasma cylinder walls?
I'm guessing it's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2018, 10:08:56 AM
I'm less than happy. My plan was to keep this car for 10 years. Now I see a complicated future of class action law suits, lemon law buybacks, warranty extensions, vastly reduced residual values, clueless & defensive dealers etc.
Shoulda bought a Giulia.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2018, 10:08:56 AM
I'm less than happy. My plan was to keep this car for 10 years. Now I see a complicated future of class action law suits, lemon law buybacks, warranty extensions, vastly reduced residual values, clueless & defensive dealers etc.
It'll prolly be fine. Loads of cars have manufacturer issues, and arguably Toyota and Honda have had similar defacto ones they never owned up to. The 2006-2009 Civic is known for cracking blocks, yet there's still ones out there just fine wth well over 200k with minimal maitenence.
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 16, 2018, 10:16:30 AM
I'm guessing it's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying
Yes, but I've never heard them referred to like that. Titanium coated, yes.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2018, 10:35:56 AM
Yes, but I've never heard them referred to like that. Titanium coated, yes.
I think it's actually mostly iron/iron oxide
Quote from: 565 on October 16, 2018, 12:38:16 PM
I think it's actually mostly iron/iron oxide
Could be. The two plasma deposition processes I'm familiar with are titanium dioxide and chromium/silicone.
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 16, 2018, 10:16:30 AM
I'm guessing it's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying
So that is essentially a type of vapor coating?
Quote from: Galaxy on October 16, 2018, 12:43:39 PM
So that is essentially a type of vapor coating?
Yes.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 16, 2018, 10:08:56 AM
I'm less than happy. My plan was to keep this car for 10 years. Now I see a complicated future of class action law suits, lemon law buybacks, warranty extensions, vastly reduced residual values, clueless & defensive dealers etc.
If you were gonna keep it for 10 years, resale value is essentially a non-issue. Realistically, I'd wager this could be monitored with more frequent oil checks, but for the most part I wouldn't be worried. I still see tranny bomb Acura TLs & Honda Odysseys running around. Honda has the cash and impetus to make good on this issue.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2018, 01:05:52 PM
If you were gonna keep it for 10 years, resale value is essentially a non-issue. Realistically, I'd wager this could be monitored with more frequent oil checks, but for the most part I wouldn't be worried. I still see tranny bomb Acura TLs & Honda Odysseys running around. Honda has the cash and impetus to make good on this issue.
Honda engines proven to leak gasoline to the oil system facing a major recall: zero-to-smallish issue. No worries.
Anyone considering a BMW/Alfa/MINI here brand new with a warranty: you won't make it to work.
SportyWorld.
Idk BMW also has issues with some of their smaller engines? The older 1.6L TRITEC is a known timing chain stretcher, and I've never known a BMW group car that didn't eat coolant and oil.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 16, 2018, 04:57:56 PM
Honda engines proven to leak gasoline to the oil system facing a major recall: zero-to-smallish issue. No worries.
Anyone considering a BMW/Alfa/MINI here brand new with a warranty: you won't make it to work.
SportyWorld.
The issue is serious, no argument there. The difference is in how the companies respond. Honda has to make good on this; the CR-V is probably their highest profile model and they have a reputation of reliability to uphold. BMW has a long history of shitting on customers with borked designs and not doing anything about it. Even with the low mileage you put on your cars you are 1 in 6 with major repairs (E60 DCT pump) and it's no issue for you because labor is damn near free down there. Up here something like a rod bearing failure could damn near total out a used ///M car. Not sure why you care what I have to say anyway; like MrH you seem very eager to argue with someone who supposedly has no idea what they're talking about.
I did a side-by-side dipstick smell test yesterday morning from the cold engines of the G37 and the CR-V. The CR-V's oil is 1,600 miles-old and the Infiniti's about 3,000 miles-old. The Infiniti's oil was grimier and a tiny bit down from the full mark. The Honda's is above full, looks clean, and smells of gasoline.
EDIT: I'll get my wife to a smell test blind tomorrow. Maybe it's me.
o sheet
The mind can play tricks, but... :mask:
What I submitted to Consumer Reports' "Share Your Story" site:
I bought my 1.5T AWD CR-V in January 2018. The dealer changed the oil at the recommended 5,000 miles in late July 2018.
I first noticed a smell of gasoline in our garage in early October 2018 (like we have an old 1960s-era car, with a leaky carbureted fuel system.) I also notice occasional wafts of gasoline smell, when we drive with the windows down & roof open.
In mid-October I did a did a side-by-side dipstick smell test: from the cold engines of my 70,000-mile Infiniti G37 and the CR-V.
The Infiniti's oil (3,000 miles-old) was slightly grimy, a tiny bit down from the full mark, and smelled of used engine oil.
The Honda's oil (1,600 miles-old) was very marginally above full, looked pristine-clear, and smelled of gasoline.
In late October 2018, at 6,900 miles, I took the CR-V to the dealer for a precautionary early oil change. Two service advisors had never heard of the oil dilution problem. A third told me, "We've only had two."
Other than the smell, & suspicious dipstick test result, I've had no symptoms. But common sense tells me that the the longevity of the engines is suspect.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 25, 2018, 05:23:13 AM
What I submitted to Consumer Reports' "Share Your Story" site:
I bought my 1.5T AWD CR-V in January 2018. The dealer changed the oil at the recommended 5,000 miles in late July 2018.
I first noticed a smell of gasoline in our garage in early October 2018 (like we have an old 1960s-era car, with a leaky carbureted fuel system.) I also notice occasional wafts of gasoline smell, when we drive with the windows down & roof open.
In mid-October I did a did a side-by-side dipstick smell test: from the cold engines of my 70,000-mile Infiniti G37 and the CR-V.
The Infiniti's oil (3,000 miles-old) was slightly grimy, a tiny bit down from the full mark, and smelled of used engine oil.
The Honda's oil (1,600 miles-old) was very marginally above full, looked pristine-clear, and smelled of gasoline.
In late October 2018, at 6,900 miles, I took the CR-V to the dealer for a precautionary early oil change. Two service advisors had never heard of the oil dilution problem. A third told me, "We've only had two."
Other than the smell, & suspicious dipstick test result, I've had no symptoms. But common sense tells me that the the longevity of the engines is suspect.
Hmmm, scary. Is this only known to effect the CRV or any Honda with the 1.5T? My dad just bought a new Accord Sport with the 1.5T and its been great so far but you never know.
Is this issue related to Nikasil?
I've heard some BMWs and Porsches of the 1980s and 1990s had this issue due to cylinder linings made out of Nikasil degrading over time due to high-sulphur or low quality gasoline. Do some manufacturers today still use Nikasil?
I'm trying to figure out what's going on with these engines and so far I've only come up with some kind of an issue with the high pressure fuel pump.
If it was a Ford, I could fix it. :lol:
It is a GDI engine, I'm assuming?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 25, 2018, 11:55:33 AM
Is this issue related to Nikasil?
I've heard some BMWs and Porsches of the 1980s and 1990s had this issue due to cylinder linings made out of Nikasil degrading over time due to high-sulphur or low quality gasoline. Do some manufacturers today still use Nikasil?
IMO it's an issue of a small engine that doesn't warm up fast enough - runs rich to too long, so the direct injectors keep smooshing large quantities of gas in at insane pressure, which ends up in the oil sump.
I've read that the fix is in, in Canada so far: Honda are doing a recall - starting in the northernmost climate zones and moving south.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 25, 2018, 12:50:52 PM
IMO it's an issue of a small engine that doesn't warm up fast enough - runs rich to too long, so the direct injectors keep smooshing large quantities of gas in at insane pressure, which ends up in the oil sump.
I've read that the fix is in, in Canada so far: Honda are doing a recall - starting in the northernmost climate zones and moving south.
Interesting.
You'd think that in this day and age those injectors would be "computer-controlled" in order to avoid such issues, right?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 25, 2018, 03:29:35 PM
Interesting.
You'd think that in this day and age those injectors would be "computer-controlled" in order to avoid such issues, right?
The injectors
are computer controlled. When an engine is warming up, the computer makes the injectors dump more fuel in. Like an automatic choke on a carb.
LOL, read a little about it. Earth Dreams? Hahaha...and I though Ecoboost was a stupid name... :lol: They could reprogram the PCM to not dump so much fuel in there when cold, but I'm sure they tried that and it ran like dog shit or something.
Morris, just run the thing until it gets up to operating temp when you start it and the fuel should boil out and get picked up by the PCV system. Don't fire it up to go 50 yards to the mailbox and back, then shut it off. ;)
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 25, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
The injectors are computer controlled. When an engine is warming up, the computer makes the injectors dump more fuel in. Like an automatic choke on a carb.
That's what I was thinking.
So once the engine has reached its optimal operating temperature the computer
should decrease the fuel-air mixture, which apparently is not happening if I understood the problem correctly.
Just pretend you have a rotary engine.... then accept fuel dilution as being normal and dump the oil every 3k miles
If there is a rich fuel condition when warmed up, the check engine light should come on because that burns out very expensive catalytic converters.
Quote from: shp4man on October 25, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
LOL, read a little about it. Earth Dreams? Hahaha...
Haha that's what I thought - all those lovely smog-inducing VOCs floating up into air. You should see the fuel filler - there's no cap - tighter than a gnat's minge to stop all those nasty fumes getting into the air.
In similar yet unsurprising news, big Focus recall coming. Some valve in the fuel system prone to clogging and shutting off the engine.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 25, 2018, 05:07:29 PM
In similar yet unsurprising news, big Focus recall coming. Some valve in the fuel system prone to clogging and shutting off the engine.
It's the canister purge valve- a fuel vapor emissions part. I've seen a few of them go bad before this recall, but not really that many. I drive a 2014 Focus everyday- I kind of like it. The transmission thing is odd, I've seen some of them with 98,000 miles that never had an issue, and others that went bad every 6000 miles. Mine's been OK since the clutch job was done.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 25, 2018, 05:07:29 PM
In similar yet unsurprising news, big Focus recall coming. Some valve in the fuel system prone to clogging and shutting off the engine.
Canister purge valve? I would think that it would trigger a code.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 25, 2018, 05:17:58 PM
Canister purge valve? I would think that it would trigger a code.
Sometimes it does. If it sticks wide open, the vacuum will actually collapse the plastic gas tank and the in-tank fuel pump can't pick up fuel--thus the stalling.
Quote from: shp4man on October 25, 2018, 05:16:57 PM
It's the canister purge valve- a fuel vapor emissions part. I've seen a few of them go bad before this recall, but not really that many. I drive a 2014 Focus everyday- I kind of like it. The transmission thing is odd, I've seen some of them with 98,000 miles that never had an issue, and others that went bad every 6000 miles. Mine's been OK since the clutch job was done.
Had the clutch and TCM replaced a year ago, no issues since. I'm at 166,000 km now. I like my Focus as well. Bought out the lease last year and I plan to run it into the ground.
Quote from: shp4man on October 25, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
Sometimes it does. If it sticks wide open, the vacuum will actually collapse the plastic gas tank and the in-tank fuel pump can't pick up fuel--thus the stalling.
Yes, that's exactly what I read.
Quote from: shp4man on October 25, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
If there is a rich fuel condition when warmed up, the check engine light should come on because that burns out very expensive catalytic converters.
It's not that rich
In fact I don't think it's a richness issue at all. When the engine is cold the rings aren't as well sealed. Couple that with insanely high pressure fuel injectors and you have some fuel getting past until things warm up. Wondering how Honda is fixing it through programming.... not sure how they can deliver adequate flow with lower pressure. Or what effect this will have on emissions. My inner conspiracy theorist wonders if this was their plan all along.....................................................
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
It's not that rich
In fact I don't think it's a richness issue at all. When the engine is cold the rings aren't as well sealed. Couple that with insanely high pressure fuel injectors and you have some fuel getting past until things warm up. Wondering how Honda is fixing it through programming.... not sure how they can deliver adequate flow with lower pressure. Or what effect this will have on emissions. My inner conspiracy theorist wonders if this was their plan all along.....................................................
Possibly changing some stuff to make it warm up faster
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
It's not that rich
In fact I don't think it's a richness issue at all. When the engine is cold the rings aren't as well sealed. Couple that with insanely high pressure fuel injectors and you have some fuel getting past until things warm up. Wondering how Honda is fixing it through programming.... not sure how they can deliver adequate flow with lower pressure. Or what effect this will have on emissions. My inner conspiracy theorist wonders if this was their plan all along.....................................................
Is there anyway they could run injectors at a lower pressure until the engine came up to temperature?
Time to go back to a Mercedes, then.
So where are these 1.5t engines made, the ones in North America?
Quote from: Submariner on October 26, 2018, 05:33:34 PM
Is there anyway they could run injectors at a lower pressure until the engine came up to temperature?
The PCM can be reprogrammed to lower the duty cycle of the fuel injectors when cold, but it may cause stalling, rough running or other driveability problems.
Quote from: shp4man on October 26, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
The PCM can be reprogrammed to lower the duty cycle of the fuel injectors when cold, but it may cause stalling, rough running or other driveability problems.
I would think that raw gasoline sloshing around in the combustion chambers would cause a bit of rough running was well.
Quote from: Submariner on October 26, 2018, 05:33:34 PM
Is there anyway they could run injectors at a lower pressure until the engine came up to temperature?
not on a direct injection engine, no.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 26, 2018, 07:03:22 PM
not on a direct injection engine, no.
Why not (I'm not very familiar with these systems)?
What about utilizing port + DI?
The fix that Honda's rolling out:
- Update to PGM-FI and TCU software
- Replacement of A/C control unit
- Throttle position reset
- PCM idle learn procedure
- Oil change
I'm hoping to get this done before the end of the year.
Quote from: Submariner on October 26, 2018, 10:07:28 PM
Why not (I'm not very familiar with these systems)?
What about utilizing port + DI?
The injector has to spray into the cylinder on the compressing stroke, and during combustion itself, so it has to be higher than the pressure in the combustion chamber itself. Even though injection can also happen on the intake stroke, the design of the injector does not give much leeway on the pressure and still atomize.
It might be possible to use a second, lower pressure injector, but that's not an easy or elegant fix.
I feel like Honda may use direct AND port injection, which will give them some flexibility.
I remember reading about some manufacturers using a hybrid approach...
Quote from: Laconian on October 27, 2018, 12:27:09 PM
I remember reading about some manufacturers using a hybrid approach...
Doesn't the corvette utilize DI + port?
I think most new Toyotas do.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 27, 2018, 06:33:27 PM
I think most new Toyotas do.
As do Ford and Audi on a number of their engines.
Most are switching over to a hybrid system to deal with the carbon build up that is plaguing everyone.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 25, 2018, 05:23:13 AM
What I submitted to Consumer Reports' "Share Your Story" site:
I bought my 1.5T AWD CR-V in January 2018. The dealer changed the oil at the recommended 5,000 miles in late July 2018.
I first noticed a smell of gasoline in our garage in early October 2018 (like we have an old 1960s-era car, with a leaky carbureted fuel system.) I also notice occasional wafts of gasoline smell, when we drive with the windows down & roof open.
In mid-October I did a did a side-by-side dipstick smell test: from the cold engines of my 70,000-mile Infiniti G37 and the CR-V.
The Infiniti's oil (3,000 miles-old) was slightly grimy, a tiny bit down from the full mark, and smelled of used engine oil.
The Honda's oil (1,600 miles-old) was very marginally above full, looked pristine-clear, and smelled of gasoline.
In late October 2018, at 6,900 miles, I took the CR-V to the dealer for a precautionary early oil change. Two service advisors had never heard of the oil dilution problem. A third told me, "We've only had two."
Other than the smell, & suspicious dipstick test result, I've had no symptoms. But common sense tells me that the the longevity of the engines is suspect.
Well I know part of the problem: the CR-V's heater starts warming the passenger compartment long before the engine temp gauge has moved off its bottom stop. The Infiniti's heater kicks in way later down the road. So Honda is keeping its little engine cold (& therefore mixture-rich) way too long.
This is basic stuff.
Eek.
Could the fix be as simple as a new thermostat?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2018, 05:29:54 PM
Could the fix be as simple as a new thermostat?
If the symptom is the heater coming on too soon, I'd think that'd be the auto climate control.
Show me logs of all engine data from a cold start until the engine is warm.
Eh, I think variability in the gauges is a more probable cause for the different observations.
Most temp gauges now are not analog-type sweep gauges, but more digital-style things with only 3 positions (cold-normal-hot).
And have a used oil analysis done if you suspect dilution.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 06, 2018, 03:29:03 PM
Well I know part of the problem: the CR-V's heater starts warming the passenger compartment long before the engine temp gauge has moved off its bottom stop. The Infiniti's heater kicks in way later down the road. So Honda is keeping its little engine cold (& therefore mixture-rich) way too long.
I don't see the connection unless you're suggesting that by allowing the heating coolant to to circulate through the heater, it's making it take longer to bring the coolant up to operating temperature.
The temp gauge in the instrument cluster is most probably a glorified idiot light. An Obd2 scanner would show the real coolant temp.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 06, 2018, 06:43:42 PM
I don't see the connection unless you're suggesting that by allowing the heating coolant to to circulate through the heater, it's making it take longer to bring the coolant up to operating temperature.
This. ^
I did a little unscientific test today. Ambient temp about 35F.
Drove the car from cold with the cabin heating off. It took about five minutes for the engine coolant gauge to get to the middle - normal operating temp place on the scale.
Then I pressed the climate control 'auto' button to bring the passenger compartment up to 75F.
The coolant temp gauge dropped almost all the way to the bottom.
Very very interesting.
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2018, 06:04:52 AM
The temp gauge in the instrument cluster is most probably a glorified idiot light. An Obd2 scanner would show the real coolant temp.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 09, 2018, 11:02:22 AM
This. ^
I did a little unscientific test today. Ambient temp about 35F.
Drove the car from cold with the cabin heating off. It took about five minutes for the engine coolant gauge to get to the middle - normal operating temp place on the scale.
Then I pressed the climate control 'auto' button to bring the passenger compartment up to 75F.
The coolant temp gauge dropped almost all the way to the bottom.
What rotor said. When you turn on the heater, cold coolant is being reintroduced to the engine, but the smog regulations dictate engine temp and how long it takes to come up to operating temp. Otherwise, the MIL will light up.
My daughter's 07 Focus heater works very well, but the MIL is coming on because the engine temp isn't coming up to the specified range quick enough. I'll be installing a thermostat hoping that will correct the MIL issue.
https://youtu.be/SrtULlpJHWE (https://youtu.be/SrtULlpJHWE)
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-repair-maintenance/honda-delays-cr-v-turbo-engine-fix-details-rollout-plans/
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 22, 2018, 07:09:54 AM
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-repair-maintenance/honda-delays-cr-v-turbo-engine-fix-details-rollout-plans/
It all sounds like a major problem with pistons, rings and cylinder walls; design/manufacture issue that is. They, undoubtedly, have fixed the problem and should replace engines on all vehicles that have this faulty engine.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 07:46:08 AM
It all sounds like a major problem with pistons, rings and cylinder walls; design/manufacture issue that is. They, undoubtedly, have fixed the problem and should replace engines on all vehicles that have this faulty engine.
From cold I drive the car for 10 minutes before switching on the cabin heat. This allows the engine to warm up. The engine can't get itself up to working temperature AND deliver cabin heat simultaneously. It's akin to deliberately keeping an engine cold by both fitting an oversize radiator, and removing the coolant thermostat.
Edit. The car also makes the garage smell of gasoline. It's like I'm storing a leaky old 4-stroke lawn mower in there.
I wonder why it only affects CR-V's, and not other Honda's with the same engine.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 22, 2018, 07:58:56 AM
From cold I drive the car for 10 minutes before switching on the cabin heat. This allows the engine to warm up. The engine can't get itself up to working temperature AND deliver cabin heat simultaneously. It's akin to deliberately keeping an engine cold by both fitting an oversize radiator, and removing the coolant thermostat.
Edit. The car also makes the garage smell of gasoline. It's like I'm storing a leaky old 4-stroke lawn mower in there.
Even with a cold engine, it shouldn't leak gas down the cylinder walls.
I turn my heat on as the engine warms up. I used to wait and let the engine warm up, but the dash pad in my Trans Am cracked when hot air hit it on a very cold morning. Lesson learned. Now I want the coolant in the heater core to warm up at the same time as the engine. The Crosstour takes about seven minutes to heat up the cabin. It takes less than fifteen to get to work.
Turbocharged direct injection engines all have some unforeseen issues like this thing with Honda. Another issue is when the engine is hot, there's a possibility of something called mega-knock caused by pre-ignition in low RPM/high load situations.
The reason for it is fairly technical, related to the space between the cylinder wall and the beginning of the top compression ring.
Let's just say if I was getting a new F150, it would be the 5.0 engine.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 07:46:08 AM
It all sounds like a major problem with pistons, rings and cylinder walls; design/manufacture issue that is. They, undoubtedly, have fixed the problem and should replace engines on all vehicles that have this faulty engine.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 08:22:35 AM
Even with a cold engine, it shouldn't leak gas down the cylinder walls.
Actually, yes, gas will get by rings in a properly designed/built engine. Fairly common in old-school carb'd whereby A/F is fixed - run too rich or leak gas into the intake manifold and you'd get gas in the oil. Oil control rings are designed for far more viscous engine oil - gasoline (or gasoline-contaminated oil) is thinner, and leaks past the rings.
It's not a (physical) design problem - pistons/rings/etc. are extremely likely to be fine. For some reason the engine is not allowed to warm up, which means a richer A/F mixture, which means gas in the oil. Honda's fix isn't a new engine but new software to let it warm up properly.
This has been a complaint from other turbo motors as well, particularly Ecoboost. Designers have to be extremely careful to avoid too lean of a A/F mixture in turbo motors in order to mitigate detonation, ergo, turbo motors' tendency toward lackluster real-world MPG.
Quote from: shp4man on December 22, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
Turbocharged direct injection engines all have some unforeseen issues like this thing with Honda. Another issue is when the engine is hot, there's a possibility of something called mega-knock caused by pre-ignition in low RPM/high load situations.
The reason for it is fairly technical, related to the space between the cylinder wall and the beginning of the top compression ring.
Let's just say if I was getting a new F150, it would be the 5.0 engine.
There must be millions of small displacement twin scroll turbo engines on the road now. Haven't heard a lot of complaints other than carbon issues. The EcoBoost 2.0 in our Discovery Sport runs like a jewel after two years. What bothered me a bit was that service is required only after 16k kilometers or 1 year, this includes oil change, filters, etc. I've stuck to this schedule and no issues; other than the infotainment system which reboots on it's own when it feel like it.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 22, 2018, 10:23:28 AM
Actually, yes, gas will get by rings in a properly designed/built engine. Fairly common in old-school carb'd whereby A/F is fixed - run too rich or leak gas into the intake manifold and you'd get gas in the oil. Oil control rings are designed for far more viscous engine oil - gasoline (or gasoline-contaminated oil) is thinner, and leaks past the rings.
It's not a (physical) design problem - pistons/rings/etc. are extremely likely to be fine. For some reason the engine is not allowed to warm up, which means a richer A/F mixture, which means gas in the oil. Honda's fix isn't a new engine but new software to let it warm up properly.
This has been a complaint from other turbo motors as well, particularly Ecoboost. Designers have to be extremely careful to avoid too lean of a A/F mixture in turbo motors in order to mitigate detonation, ergo, turbo motors' tendency toward lackluster real-world MPG.
Some problems have been reported, but not to the extent of the Honda problem. Something as simple as wrong oil type could cause that sort of problem.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
There must be millions of small displacement twin scroll turbo engines on the road now. Haven't heard a lot of complaints other than carbon issues. The EcoBoost 2.0 in our Discovery Sport runs like a jewel after two years. What bothered me a bit was that service is required only after 16k kilometers or 1 year, this includes oil change, filters, etc. I've stuck to this schedule and no issues; other than the infotainment system which reboots on it's own when it feel like it.
My A4 had "recommended" 10k mile (16k km) service intervals, which included oil change. I had those services done, as they were included with the car, but I sure as shit did an oil change myself halfway in between around 5k miles. Probably not truly necessary, but cheap peace of mind, especially on a turbr0.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 22, 2018, 10:39:47 AM
My A4 had "recommended" 10k mile (16k km) service intervals, which included oil change. I had those services done, as they were included with the car, but I sure as shit did an oil change myself halfway in between around 5k miles. Probably not truly necessary, but cheap peace of mind, especially on a turbr0.
In the past, I would've as well, but since we have the car on a 3 1/2 year lease, I'm just going along with the schedule.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
There must be millions of small displacement twin scroll turbo engines on the road now. Haven't heard a lot of complaints other than carbon issues. The EcoBoost 2.0 in our Discovery Sport runs like a jewel after two years. What bothered me a bit was that service is required only after 16k kilometers or 1 year, this includes oil change, filters, etc. I've stuck to this schedule and no issues; other than the infotainment system which reboots on it's own when it feel like it.
There have been enormous volumes of complaints and recalls regarding turbo motors - poor MPG, gas in the oil, various mech. maladies - esp. with Ford and Kia/Hyundai products (and now Honda).
I've submitted my complaint to add to the list at carcomplaints.com.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR-V/2017/engine/high_oil_level_with_gas_in_oil.shtml
Yikes, I would not be happy (esp. since I've had a great track record for my last three vehicles - including an Accord).
Even the old reliable Saab Turbo had oiling problems. Notably sludge issues.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 22, 2018, 10:54:18 AM
There have been enormous volumes of complaints and recalls regarding turbo motors - poor MPG, gas in the oil, various mech. maladies - esp. with Ford and Kia/Hyundai products (and now Honda).
Certainly there are some complaints, but not massive complaints as with the Honda 1.5 T.
Quote from: JWC on December 22, 2018, 12:11:35 PM
Even the old reliable Saab Turbo had oiling problems. Notably sludge issues.
As did Toyota a few years ago. Bad engineering.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 22, 2018, 12:15:29 PM
Certainly there are some complaints, but not massive complaints as with the Honda 1.5 T.
Ecoboost is legion in its recalls, complaints and class-action lawsuits. Just Google "ecoboost gas in oil" or "ecoboost poor mpg" or "ecoboost class action lawsuit" or "ecoboost NHTSA investigation."
Quote from: GoCougs on December 22, 2018, 12:20:35 PM
Ecoboost is legion in its recalls, complaints and class-action lawsuits. Just Google "ecoboost gas in oil" or "ecoboost poor mpg" or "ecoboost class action lawsuit" or "ecoboost NHTSA investigation."
I did, this is what I got...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryvvVH8v/ecoboos1.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQ8grxhv/ecoboost2.png)
This one was particularly interesting...
Laboratory Testing of a 2017 Ford F-150 3.5L V6 EcoBoost With a 10-Speed Transmission (https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/812520.pdf)
The vehicle benchmarked in this report is a 2017 Ford F-150 with the 3.5 liter V6 EcoBoost engine coupled to a newly introduced 10-speed automatic transmission. This particular powertrain configuration provides favorable fuel economy results while providing significant vehicle performance. The focus of the benchmark is to understand the use of critical powertrain components and their impact on the vehicle efficiency. The vehicle is instrumented to provide data to support the model development and validation in conjunction to providing the data for the analysis in the report. The vehicle is tested on a chassis dynamometer in the controlled laboratory environment across a range of certification tests. Further tests are performed to map the different powertrain components. The analysis in this report start by providing the fuel economy and efficiency results on the certification drive cycles along with of component operation on those tests. The maximum performance envelops of the powertrain are presented. A section is devoted to specific powertrain characterization. Some off-cycle testing, such as the thermal testing of 5-cycle label fuel economy and octane fuel testing, is explored. Finally, some vehicle specific test, such as the impact of different drive modes on the transmission operation, increased payload and active grille shutters, close out the analysis.
Just a handful forum complaints about gas in oil. The carbon NHTSA issue is closed.
As for mileage with a small displacement twin scroll turbo, as mentioned before, it works exceptionally well with a 8,9,10 speed transmission. The trick is to keep the revs just at or slightly below the boost mark, but there is always power when you need it at higher revs. It's all down to the software. I get well above the EPA rating if I drive with a light foot.
On the bright side, the CR-V gets real-world 31 mpg. (33 mpg without the gas-tank-to-oil-pan pump option)
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 22, 2018, 02:00:19 PM
On the bright side, the CR-V gets real-world 31 mpg. (33 mpg without the gas-tank-to-oil-pan pump option)
City or highway?
I still am curious as to why the CR-V seems prone to this issue, but not the Accord or Civic.
This doesn't sound as bad as the R18 block cracking issues of the Mid 00's tho.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 22, 2018, 03:19:18 PM
I still am curious as to why the CR-V seems prone to this issue, but not the Accord or Civic.
This doesn't sound as bad as the R18 block cracking issues of the Mid 00's tho.
My uneducated guess is that the heater for the passenger cabin in the CR-V may be different - sucking more heat to warm a larger volume than the others. But I really don't know - Honda are not forthcoming from what others are saying.
Quote from: Submariner on December 22, 2018, 02:22:26 PM
City or highway?
That's between fills - mixed journeys - 50% rural @ 50-ish mph - and 50% suburban with traffic lights.
Quote from: shp4man on December 22, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
Turbocharged direct injection engines all have some unforeseen issues like this thing with Honda. Another issue is when the engine is hot, there's a possibility of something called mega-knock caused by pre-ignition in low RPM/high load situations.
The reason for it is fairly technical, related to the space between the cylinder wall and the beginning of the top compression ring.
Let's just say if I was getting a new F150, it would be the 5.0 engine.
Yea, there is a lot of bellyaching with the stickshift turbo Fords and lugging it in high gears. In a small naturally aspirated engine you wouldn't run the engine that way as there's no torque.... but since the turbo DI engines can build big boost down low it becomes a recipe for disaster. I think automatics are programmed to stay out of that danger zone. If I ever get another stickshift car hopefully it will be naturally aspirated and port injected.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 23, 2018, 08:30:59 AM
Yea, there is a lot of bellyaching with the stickshift turbo Fords and lugging it in high gears. In a small naturally aspirated engine you wouldn't run the engine that way as there's no torque.... but since the turbo DI engines can build big boost down low it becomes a recipe for disaster. I think automatics are programmed to stay out of that danger zone. If I ever get another stickshift car hopefully it will be naturally aspirated and port injected.
A small turbo engine without a multi-multi-speed automatic makes no sense. With a 8, 9, 10 speed auto with appropriate software, it's excellent.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 23, 2018, 12:33:56 PM
A small turbo engine without a multi-multi-speed automatic makes no sense. With a 8, 9, 10 speed auto with appropriate software, it's excellent.
I love the wide-ratio 5-speed manual in my Fiesta. The only time that it's not great is in stop-n-go bullshit city traffic. It needs a granny gear for idling along with all the mindless creepers in their automatics.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 23, 2018, 12:58:49 PM
I love the wide-ratio 5-speed manual in my Fiesta. The only time that it's not great is in stop-n-go bullshit city traffic. It needs a granny gear for idling along with all the mindless creepers in their automatics.
Sticks make no sense if your commute is stop'n'go.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 23, 2018, 01:09:07 PM
Sticks make no sense if your commute is stop'n'go.
That's part of the reason the car is in storage right now. Instead, I drive my Dakota with a stick... :facepalm:
I can smell gas from Subaru's exhaust when I back it out of the garage first thing in the morning. Otherwise it's fine.
I've actually been very surprised that ALL the manufacturers don't have more motor issues with brand new powerplants. Remarkable how good the engineering and testing usually is.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 23, 2018, 07:07:57 PM
I can smell gas from Subaru's exhaust when I back it out of the garage first thing in the morning. Otherwise it's fine.
That's normal for a cold start on a cold day...engines run rich when they're cold.
Honda has started sending out bulletins to owners telling them to make appointments, apparently to get an "emissions issue" fixed that also deals with a cylinder misfire issue: reprogramming the ECM & replacing the climate control box of tricks. 1.1 hours of work.
I suppose the aroma of raw VOCs floating out from the engine bay could be considered an "emissions problem."
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 29, 2018, 04:35:42 AM
Honda has started sending out bulletins to owners telling them to make appointments, apparently to get an "emissions issue" fixed that also deals with a cylinder misfire issue: reprogramming the ECM & replacing the climate control box of tricks. 1.1 hours of work.
I suppose the aroma of raw VOCs floating out from the engine bay could be considered an "emissions problem."
Not long enough to replace the engine. I guess they're still in denial. :huh:
I'm going to have to see if there's a class action lawsuit I can join. Sigh.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cH6Kf4bD/CRV-Oil-b.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 19, 2019, 05:46:18 AM
I'm going to have to see if there's a class action lawsuit I can join. Sigh.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHYNZ4LH/CR-V-Oil.jpg)
The biggest concern there is that there are so many better things to do with a working time machine.
Oops I'd better fix that :lol:
Did you get that fix done?
Did you get a used oil analysis?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 19, 2019, 08:47:45 AM
Did you get a used oil analysis?
Great idea - I just ordered a kit. tks
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 19, 2019, 06:48:43 AM
Did you get that fix done?
Sporty, no. There's a TSB out for an alleged fix, but they're rolling it geographically : starting in Canada & the northern states & going southwards.
So, being in Georgia, despite living in the state's cooler microclimate, I'm low down the totem pole.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 19, 2019, 05:46:18 AM
I'm going to have to see if there's a class action lawsuit I can join. Sigh.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cH6Kf4bD/CRV-Oil-b.jpg)
What weight is the oil...and why is it bright orange?
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 19, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
What weight is the oil...and why is it bright orange?
LOL, that's the Japanese idea of a dipstick. I mean, c'mon. Earth Dreams? :lol:
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 19, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
What weight is the oil...and why is it bright orange?
Orange because of the gas in it. Will be clear soon enough. Probably -10 weight now
So who is finally gonna do turbo motors right, if not Honda?
Jesus, what a travesty.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 19, 2019, 08:34:12 PM
So who is finally gonna do turbo motors right, if not Honda?
Jesus, what a travesty.
Obviously not Honda. There are a ton of small displacement Turbo engines that do just fine. The common problem is carbon buildup on the intake valve back due to, largely, oil mist from the PCV system that is not washed off by injected fuel. This has been resolved in a couple of ways, by combining both direct and port injection systems, Ford and Toyota, and by filtering any oil from the PCV system. Whatever Honda has done is still somewhat of a mystery; except perhaps for Honda. No excuse for fuel leaking through the cylinder walls; even with 0 weight oil.
Seems like a weird piston ring tolerance stack up issue at certain temperatures that only affects the 1.5? My 2.0T has been fine so far. Knock on wood.
Interesting that Honda put this video out...
https://youtu.be/fVdKNRgzGT8
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 20, 2019, 07:45:41 AM
Obviously not Honda. There are a ton of small displacement Turbo engines that do just fine. The common problem is carbon buildup on the intake valve back due to, largely, oil mist from the PCV system that is not washed off by injected fuel. This has been resolved in a couple of ways, by combining both direct and port injection systems, Ford and Toyota, and by filtering any oil from the PCV system. Whatever Honda has done is still somewhat of a mystery; except perhaps for Honda. No excuse for fuel leaking through the cylinder walls; even with 0 weight oil.
Nah, turbos are all disasters. Ecoboost, BMW, they've all been train wrecks of one or more flavors. The value lost has been absolutely immense.
Gas (and gas-contaminated oil, even 0 weight oil) will get by piston rings - it will happen in all engines. The ring/cylinder wall interface is designed for a certain viscosity of fluid.
Toyota is mostly staying away from turbos, esp. in their mainline products - Camry, Corolla, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. It's proving to be very smart.
Quote from: MrH on January 20, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
Seems like a weird piston ring tolerance stack up issue at certain temperatures that only affects the 1.5? My 2.0T has been fine so far. Knock on wood.
There, apparently, are 4 versions of the 1.5 Turbo, lower ratings for the Civic, 174 bhp and for the CR-V, it's 190 bhp; presumably higher compression, etc. There's also a hotter version for the Civic Si that puts out 205 bhp. The version in the Accord has 192 bhp.
I wonder if they all have the same problem.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 20, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
Nah, turbos are all disasters. Ecoboost, BMW, they've all been train wrecks of one or more flavors. The value lost has been absolutely immense.
Gas (and gas-contaminated oil, even 0 weight oil) will get by piston rings - it will happen in all engines. The ring/cylinder wall interface is designed for a certain viscosity of fluid.
Toyota is mostly staying away from turbos, esp. in their mainline products - Camry, Corolla, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. It's proving to be very smart.
Since their inception, any defect in engines of various types will always be addressed; with the exception of engines that are complete garbage. This is true of small displacement DI turbo engines as well. If you pay attention to what is happening in the industry, you will recognize this. Problems on DI Turbo engines, such as carbon on the back of intake values have been addressed by the better manufacturers. For any DI engine, materials used, especially in cylinder walls, is extremely important.
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 20, 2019, 10:24:08 AM
Since their inception, any defect in engines of various types will always be addressed; with the exception of engines that are complete garbage. This is true of small displacement DI turbo engines as well. If you pay attention to what is happening in the industry, you will recognize this. Problems on DI Turbo engines, such as carbon on the back of intake values have been addressed by the better manufacturers. For any DI engine, materials used, especially in cylinder walls, is extremely important.
True, most engine issues/technologies get fixed, but turbos overall have always been a bane for the automotive world. In the off chance its not durability/reliability problems it's under-performing MPG and/or worser ownership experience (lag, higher maintenance/repair costs, temp sensitivity, worse emissions, etc.).
Quote from: GoCougs on January 20, 2019, 01:11:23 PM
True, most engine issues/technologies get fixed, but turbos overall have always been a bane for the automotive world. In the off chance its not durability/reliability problems it's under-performing MPG and/or worser ownership experience (lag, higher maintenance/repair costs, temp sensitivity, worse emissions, etc.).
As someone who has a small displacement DI Turbo, I highly recommend it to anyone who was excellent performance for great fuel efficiency, better if it has a 9 or 10 speed transmission that is properly synched to the engine. Of course, any engine/transmission combo will give poor gas mileage if you have a lead foot and drive like a maniac. Myself, having a delicate foot on the accelerator pedal, most of the time, have been able to get up to 6.6 L/100K (35.6 mpg) with a fairly heavy SUV.
The only problem with small displacement DI Turbo engines in bad engineering and crappy software.
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 20, 2019, 01:41:17 PM
As someone who has a small displacement DI Turbo, I highly recommend it to anyone who was excellent performance for great fuel efficiency, better if it has a 9 or 10 speed transmission that is properly synched to the engine. Of course, any engine/transmission combo will give poor gas mileage if you have a lead foot and drive like a maniac. Myself, having a delicate foot on the accelerator pedal, most of the time, have been able to get up to 6.6 L/100K (35.6 mpg) with a fairly heavy SUV.
The only problem with small displacement DI Turbo engines in bad engineering and crappy software.
But if it's the "only" problem, how is it so many automakers have problems with it?
Quote from: GoCougs on January 20, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
Nah, turbos are all disasters. Ecoboost, BMW, they've all been train wrecks of one or more flavors. The value lost has been absolutely immense.
Gas (and gas-contaminated oil, even 0 weight oil) will get by piston rings - it will happen in all engines. The ring/cylinder wall interface is designed for a certain viscosity of fluid.
Toyota is mostly staying away from turbos, esp. in their mainline products - Camry, Corolla, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. It's proving to be very smart.
Trainwrecks by what measures? Outside of the broken fuel economy promise most issues I see with turbo engines have nothing to do with turbocharging.
I've been surprised with how much I like my 2.0t. It's brutally quick for a family sedan, and I consistently get 28-32 mpg.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 20, 2019, 04:21:34 PM
But if it's the "only" problem, how is it so many automakers have problems with it?
In that it applies to the ones that have problems. Most of them are just fine; some a bit better than others. The crappy software applies to mating the engine to the transmission was well; for those that, seemingly, have transmission problems.
Quote from: MrH on January 20, 2019, 04:53:28 PM
I've been surprised with how much I like my 2.0t. It's brutally quick for a family sedan, and I consistently get 28-32 mpg.
Ditto for the 2.0 DI turbo in my Discovery Sport. It's a rebadged Ecoboost.
With the exception of this huge issue (and the minor annoyances of the touchscreen interface, & the seat cushions [designed flat: for people with wider arses than mine]) , I love every other aspect of the car.
I bought the highest-optioned gizmo-laden model with the specific intention of keeping it for 10 years. Putting gas in the oil does not do wonders for longevity.
If I'd bought the stripper base model, the vin ordinaire with the 2.4L NA engine, I would have been a happier bunny.
I can't go back to a car w/no toys if I have a choice
I think Honda will figure this out.
There are a few unforseen issues with turbocharged direct injection engines, and not just Hondas. I heard the EPA enviros pushed hard on the various manufacturers to develop them. Like the early days of emission controls, there are some growing pains.
I talked to a Ford rep last week that said the future is likely EV's, but autonomous may take a while to make work.
The EPA is an unmitigated failure.
Turbos will always be more expensive, will always be less reliable, and will always disappoint on MPG and emissions (and this is best case).
Various tech fads (turbos, EVs, robots, autonomous driving) have been around for decades in industry. Pushing them into retail will continue to be a failure, but WtP are desperate for the Next Big Thing.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 21, 2019, 01:12:51 PM
The EPA is an unmitigated failure.
Turbos will always be more expensive, will always be less reliable, and will always disappoint on MPG and emissions (and this is best case).
Various tech fads (turbos, EVs, robots, autonomous driving) have been around for decades in industry. Pushing them into retail will continue to be a failure, but WtP are desperate for the Next Big Thing.
Autonomous vehicles have always been a dream, but the tech really hasn't existed until very recently. I mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, Cadillac's 8-6-4 was a disaster due mostly to the unreliability of sensors and a total lack of computing power. I'd imagine those issues don't exist today. The same thing goes for cameras and collision detection algorithms, etc.
I'm not well versed on this, but couldn't automakers just opt for lower gearing to easily and cheaply improve MPG?
Even today, variable displacement is dubious - it seems to now function okay but the benefit seems to be about nil. The key to improving MPG is weight and aero but betwix government regulation and culture preference (for trucks, SUVs and crossovers) good luck with that.
Autonomous driving has been used in industry (factories) for years. It works well as the environment is very controlled - consistent lighting and"road" (floor/isle) design, controlled access, controlled environment (no snow or fog or construction zones whatever) and everyone/thing is well versed on the rules of the "road" whether that's pedestrians or other vehicles (this is a modern implementation - older tech, such
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8zDRu72HD0
It's no surprise that the major leaders in autonomous driving have spent many years and many billions$$ and it's still a no-go. One can have the best sensing and vision in the world but doesn't mean much without the algorithms as you note. What's taking so long is the meta data collection of all the goofy scenarios and gotchas that people are excellent at reacting too without having seen it whereas generally for a machine to react it has to have an algorithm for it - fog, snow, standing water, construction zones, pedestrians at night, myriad road and sign designs, toll stations, worn/damaged roads, accident scenes, wrong-way drivers, etc., etc.
Turbos add complexity for not that much gain. Well-suited to large applications (trucks) but not so much crazy consumers who barely know how to take care of basic maintenance or follow simple instructions..
I'm surprised Honda has had issues like this, without figuring out a quicker way to make it right.
--- ---
As far as autonomous cars, take people driving out of the equation and the problems will be fixed. The computing power and ingenuity available in software will make things zip faster than ever- until the hacking of course.
Some turbo engines do deliver on the promises made. Honda 2.0T and BMW 2.0T/3.0T do (I discount BMW's reliability issues because their engines have always been unreliable compared to others).
I think bundling autonomy, EVs and turbocharging is a mistake. These techs are hot buzzwords but don't really have anything to do with each other.
IMO if the goal is to reduce emissions, the most effective way forward is conventional hybrids. Not "mild" hybrids, not plug ins, not BEVs. Say a normal car generates 100 emissions units (EUs) over its life span. You have 80 kWh of battery capacity. What do you get in terms of reduction for each configuration?
BEVs reduce emissions by ~75% compared to normal cars, so for that 80kWh you'd save 75 EUs in 1 car.
Plug in hybrids are weird because they really depend on how they are used. 80kWh could do about 5 cars.... if you don't tap into the ICE they are as efficient as BEVs, but if you do they are no more efficient than regular hybrids which generally save about 35%. So the range would be 175 to 375 EUs saved.
Normal hybrids as I said save like 35% on average... and they generally only need 1-2kWh to do their thing. So let's split the difference and say 1.5kWh/car.... that's nearly 1,900 EUs saved from that 80kWh!!! I think the per kWh payback drops off again with mild hybrids... not sold there. But in the context of the constraints of batteries the way forward seems obvious. The ICE engines attached don't need to be anything fancy either.
yeah, generating energy from braking is awesome
Quote from: GoCougs on January 21, 2019, 01:12:51 PM
The EPA is an unmitigated failure.
Turbos will always be more expensive, will always be less reliable, and will always disappoint on MPG and emissions (and this is best case).
Various tech fads (turbos, EVs, robots, autonomous driving) have been around for decades in industry. Pushing them into retail will continue to be a failure, but WtP are desperate for the Next Big Thing.
Yea... because there isn't an industry in the world that relies on large turbocharged engines being reliable and returning the best possible mpg...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 22, 2019, 05:44:09 AM
Some turbo engines do deliver on the promises made. Honda 2.0T and BMW 2.0T/3.0T do (I discount BMW's reliability issues because their engines have always been unreliable compared to others).
I think bundling autonomy, EVs and turbocharging is a mistake. These techs are hot buzzwords but don't really have anything to do with each other.
IMO if the goal is to reduce emissions, the most effective way forward is conventional hybrids. Not "mild" hybrids, not plug ins, not BEVs. Say a normal car generates 100 emissions units (EUs) over its life span. You have 80 kWh of battery capacity. What do you get in terms of reduction for each configuration?
BEVs reduce emissions by ~75% compared to normal cars, so for that 80kWh you'd save 75 EUs in 1 car.
Plug in hybrids are weird because they really depend on how they are used. 80kWh could do about 5 cars.... if you don't tap into the ICE they are as efficient as BEVs, but if you do they are no more efficient than regular hybrids which generally save about 35%. So the range would be 175 to 375 EUs saved.
Normal hybrids as I said save like 35% on average... and they generally only need 1-2kWh to do their thing. So let's split the difference and say 1.5kWh/car.... that's nearly 1,900 EUs saved from that 80kWh!!! I think the per kWh payback drops off again with mild hybrids... not sold there. But in the context of the constraints of batteries the way forward seems obvious. The ICE engines attached don't need to be anything fancy either.
I don't understand this comparison at all. Hybrids are better at reducing emissions because they have smaller batteries? :confused:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on January 22, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
I don't understand this comparison at all. Hybrids are better at reducing emissions because they have smaller batteries? :confused:
On a per kWh basis, yes. If the goal is to reduce emissions, and we are battery constrained, conventional hybrids yield the most bang for the buck. 1-2kWh in a hybrid reduces emissions by 30-40%, vs using 60-90kWh in a BEV to reduce them by 60-70%.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 23, 2019, 11:49:25 AM
On a per kWh basis, yes. If the goal is to reduce emissions, and we are battery constrained, conventional hybrids yield the most bang for the buck. 1-2kWh in a hybrid reduces emissions by 30-40%, vs using 60-90kWh in a BEV to reduce them by 60-70%.
I think you're attributing 100% of the emissions of electric propulsion to the manufacturing process of the battery. It's not like a car with an 80kWh battery only uses 80kWh of electricity over the life of the vehicle.
It's like comparing efficiency of gasoline cars based on the size of their fuel tanks.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 PM
I think you're attributing 100% of the emissions of electric propulsion to the manufacturing process of the battery. It's not like a car with an 80kWh battery only uses 80kWh of electricity over the life of the vehicle.
It's like comparing efficiency of gasoline cars based on the size of their fuel tanks.
I'm still not being clear enough, it seems. I said in the original post I was talking about lifetime emissions. Compared to a normal car, a normal hybrid is about 30-40% more efficient over its lifetime, and a PHEV is about 60-80% more efficient. PHEVs are somewhere between. To me it makes more sense to use 1kWh of battery capacity to save 30-40% of carbon emissions than 60-90 to save 60-80%. Again you take that battery capacity and deploy it across multiple conventional hybrids, you will get much more bang for your buck in terms of emissions savings.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 23, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
I'm still not being clear enough, it seems. I said in the original post I was talking about lifetime emissions. Compared to a normal car, a normal hybrid is about 30-40% more efficient over its lifetime, and a PHEV is about 60-80% more efficient. PHEVs are somewhere between. To me it makes more sense to use 1kWh of battery capacity to save 30-40% of carbon emissions than 60-90 to save 60-80%. Again you take that battery capacity and deploy it across multiple conventional hybrids, you will get much more bang for your buck in terms of emissions savings.
Oh, well that's just because you didn't say anything about "bang for your buck" in your original post.
"If the goal is to reduce emissions" (your words), then money is irrelevant.
I agree with Sporty, hybrids provide a lot of savings simply by recapturing the kinetic energy that would otherwise be lost to heat. The quantity of storage isn't great, but the frequency in which energy is charged/discharged multiplies out to a pretty significant amount of savings in the end.
I wish they would ZF would install hybrid motors directly into automatic transmissions so that it would be a no-brainer for manufacturers to integrate.
ZF8 has room for hybrid motors (see BMW iPerformance line). Problem is motor size is limited to like 80HP, which limits the system's effectiveness and calls on the gas motor more. It's kind of the worst of both worlds. Compare that with Toyota/Honda's systems which basically replace the transmissions entirely with bigger motors and smaller, simpler engines, which is way more efficient. Lexus has managed to simulate a 10AT with its hybrid system so there's no downside in character either. I'd love to see ZF offer something like that to the Germans. German hybrids are pretty phoned in right now.
Hybrid motors take up effectively zero space already. The Honda IMA system for instance replaces the flywheel, and add maybe 2 inches to the overall powerplant length.
God knows what the gasoline VOCs from my Earth Dreams envirocrunchy 1.5T are doing to the environment. A 6.2L 840 hp fuck-you Dodge Demon is probably better for air quality.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 27, 2019, 05:22:21 PM
God knows what the gasoline VOCs from my Earth Dreams envirocrunchy 1.5T are doing to the environment. A 6.2L 840 hp fuck-you Dodge Demon is probably better for air quality.
The PCV system is pretty well sealed. It's probably just covering the intake with deposits.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 27, 2019, 05:22:21 PM
God knows what the gasoline VOCs from my Earth Dreams envirocrunchy 1.5T are doing to the environment. A 6.2L 840 hp fuck-you Dodge Demon is probably better for air quality.
Gas pooling in your sump = no VOCs
Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 26, 2019, 12:22:42 PM
Hybrid motors take up effectively zero space already. The Honda IMA system for instance replaces the flywheel, and add maybe 2 inches to the overall powerplant length.
The shitty ones do (like Honda IMA which is dead and BMW's iPerformance system). The new and effective ones run huge motors and generators that basically replace the transmission, rather than squeezing a cheap motor/generator between the engine + transmission.
I'm gonna guess that it will hurt emissions a bit. A lower viscosity gas+oil film outside the bounds of the oil control rings' design intent is bound to linger on the cylinder walls.
My biggest worry would be the deleterious effects on gaskets/seals and decreased lubricating properties.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 27, 2019, 07:15:02 PM
Gas pooling in your sump = no VOCs
My garage reeks of gasoline - the Honda's wafting it out somehow.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 28, 2019, 03:38:16 AM
My garage reeks of gasoline - the Honda's wafting it out somehow.
Just make sure your exhaust valves are closed when you park. Or stick a banana in the tailpipe.
Unburned hydrocarbons. A major cause of smog. Earth Dreams indeed... ;)
It has begun:
https://www.classaction.org/media/hamilton-v-american-honda-motor-company-inc.pdf
This is not the Honda way :(
I still believe :(
Odd that it's only specific to the CR-V. Haven't heard anything from the Accord/Civic camps.
Agreed Sporty, this is not the Honda way.
My old 2003 Mk1 Pilot is still in service: my son & daughter-in-law's daily driver. It's a lovely vehicle.
Like I said before, with a few exceptions, all the manufacturers are about equal in pluses and minuses.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 31, 2019, 05:17:15 AM
This is not the Honda way :(
I still believe :(
Odd that it's only specific to the CR-V. Haven't heard anything from the Accord/Civic camps.
Civics in China have been recalled for the same problem...https://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2018/02/13/honda-to-recall-350000-cars-in-china-over-engine-issue/ (https://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2018/02/13/honda-to-recall-350000-cars-in-china-over-engine-issue/)
The recall involves the CR-V sport utility vehicle and the Civic car equipped with a 1.5-litre turbo engine, Honda's joint venture with Dongfeng Motor Group Co Ltd said in a statement on Monday.
I getting an oil sample taken next week. Will send it off for analysis. Then I'll forward it to one of the attorneys involved in bringing the suit.
Honda will settle & do what it needs to do. Reputation is everything in this game
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 31, 2019, 10:33:12 AM
I getting an oil sample taken next week. Will send it off for analysis. Then I'll forward it to one of the attorneys involved in bringing the suit.
Honda will settle & do what it needs to do. Reputation is everything in this game
Don't settle for the first offer! I went through the lemon law case with my Versa, and went back and forth with my attorney for a month before getting an acceptable settlement offer. They want the problem swept under the rug and kept out of court, and they will pay for it.
Oil sample was taken today. Oil had 4,000 miles on it. Mailing it off tomorrow
2% gasoline in oil that's got 4K miles on it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3LKrrxH/CRV-oil-report.png) (https://postimg.cc/N2qVw9Ym)
Assuming that your vehicle holds 4 quarts of oil and that fuel % is by volume, you have about 1/3 cup of fuel in your oil. It would be interesting to know if that number increases with mileage between oil changes or if it is more dependent upon whether the engine is run hot enough to burn off the fuel.
Less than I expected, tbh
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 14, 2019, 05:20:41 AM
2% gasoline in oil that's got 4K miles on it.
Do you make a lot of short trips or generally trips long enough to run at operating temperature for more than a few minutes?
Is there an amount of gas that can get in the oil that's considered normal and safe?
Quote from: Xer0 on February 14, 2019, 10:00:29 AM
Is there an amount of gas that can get in the oil that's considered normal and safe?
I don't think there are any specs on that. Modern oil is pretty thin already, though.
But hell, two strokes run gas mixed with oil for lubrication. So there's that.
Quote from: Xer0 on February 14, 2019, 10:00:29 AM
Is there an amount of gas that can get in the oil that's considered normal and safe?
I would think that the garage smells of gas is an indication that it's a bit much. I've had cars that smelled of gas, but they were wrecks.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 14, 2019, 10:10:42 AM
I would think that the garage smells of gas is an indication that it's a bit much. I've had cars that smelled of gas, but they were wrecks.
Carburetors that leaked down and open vented fuel tanks used to mean it wasn't uncommon.
No modern car should.
Quote from: Xer0 on February 14, 2019, 10:00:29 AM
Is there an amount of gas that can get in the oil that's considered normal and safe?
Maybe?
The main effect will be to reduce viscosity, so going to a heavier weight oil might be a good idea; or it might not. Honda's variable valve timing and belt tensioner use hydraulic pressure to operate, and messing with the viscosity might not work out.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 14, 2019, 10:16:46 AM
Carburetors that leaked down and open vented fuel tanks used to mean it wasn't uncommon.
No modern car should.
Even when you didn't have a garage. However, for those of us who like the smell of raw gasoline, it was a bonus.
Interestingly, 2% (by volume?) fuel content is noted at the maximum of okay. I'd want a spec/report/standard that says that however. Does sound like a lot to me, as a layman.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 14, 2019, 10:20:01 AM
Even when you didn't have a garage. However, for those of us who like the smell of raw gasoline, it was a bonus.
2-cycle exhaust, sawdust, and unburnt diesel and ether from the trucks starting in the morning are smells that taks me right back to childhood.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 14, 2019, 11:15:28 AM
2-cycle exhaust, sawdust, and unburnt diesel and ether from the trucks starting in the morning are smells that taks me right back to childhood.
I'm with you on the first 2 and throw in a smoke from a wood fire.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2019, 10:53:04 AM
Interestingly, 2% (by volume?) fuel content is noted at the maximum of okay. I'd want a spec/report/standard that says that however. Does sound like a lot to me, as a layman.
Yeah, I'm a bit curious about where they got that value from.
The flashpoint value looks worse though, assuming the gray column is reputable. And both of the viscosities are near the low end of the acceptable range.
2% fuel is the limit per Blackstone. This car is driven 30-miles twice per day and gets fully-warmed up. Reports from other owners, who do shorter journeys, are of far higher dilution levels.
Yikes, this engine is not looking good for Honda right now. It almost feels like they are taking the "if we just ignore it, maybe people will forget" line of thinking.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 14, 2019, 01:30:17 PM
Yeah, I'm a bit curious about where they got that value from.
The flashpoint value looks worse though, assuming the gray column is reputable. And both of the viscosities are near the low end of the acceptable range.
Flashpoint seems fine. Oil temp is never gonna get over 300.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 14, 2019, 02:40:50 PM
Flashpoint seems fine. Oil temp is never gonna get over 300.
Fair enough. I was just basing that off of the spec listed on the sheet.
Looks like you should drop to a 3k oil change interval...
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 14, 2019, 02:40:50 PM
Flashpoint seems fine. Oil temp is never gonna get over 300.
Yea we'd def have heard of CR-Vs exploding by now.
https://www.wardsauto.com/engines/honda-15l-engine-suffers-cold-weather-oil-dilution-problem
What does Honda consider 'extreme cold temperatures'?
Honda Extends Warranty on Troubled Turbo Engines
The action affects more than 1 million CR-Vs and Civics after reports of gasoline mixing with engine oil
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-extends-warranty-on-troubled-turbo-engines/ (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-extends-warranty-on-troubled-turbo-engines/)
I'm guessing Honda doesn't want to say what the cause of the issue is, but I imagine that would put a lot of owners at ease.
I am in new Civic and Accord FB groups... haven't seen much about engine problems from either but the Accord seems to be struggling with some electric gremlins. Honda is getting spanked for its ambition with this generation of cars.
Yep. I would still trust their cars with NA motors but they should have taken a more cautious approach with turbos. Long term I wonder if the turbo vehicles will be any more reliable than the average VW product?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 27, 2019, 01:48:51 PM
I'm guessing Honda doesn't want to say what the cause of the issue is, but I imagine that would put a lot of owners at ease.
I am in new Civic and Accord FB groups... haven't seen much about engine problems from either but the Accord seems to be struggling with some electric gremlins. Honda is getting spanked for its ambition with this generation of cars.
For me, it's neck and neck. VW's latest turbo engines seem pretty reliable. If I had to replace my car right now it would be between a GTI or an Accord Hybrid + fun car X.
Accord/Camry hybrid is tempting.
I just saw that there's a 2020 Corolla Hybrid now
Corolla Hybrid is meh. I prefer the Insight
Both are too slow for me though. Wish there were more powerful but smaller hybrid options. Like the Insight with the Accord Hybrid powertrain
Is it? I literally just saw something about it, haven't read any reviews.
I'm tempted to get a new Camry Hybrid. I like the 2019 styling and it'd be fantastic for roadtrips
It's only available in base trim, I'm guessing to protecc the Prius.
Camry Hybrid should be awesome. I think they can do 700 miles on a tank. I want a smaller car next go round though
Yeah my aunt has a ~2015 Camry hybrid and she drove from SC to Ohio on like half a tank
And the oil dilution problem is supposed to be only a big issue in the Canadian provinces and colder US states...
I live in sub-tropical Georgia.
Oil was changed by a Honda dealer May 1st 2019 at 15,088 miles. Today, 3,056 miles later: -
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDSK9Swc/Oil-Level-sm.jpg)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 29, 2019, 03:59:41 AM
Accord/Camry hybrid is tempting.
I just saw that there's a 2020 Corolla Hybrid now
I considered the Hybrid for a split second. But the 2.0t + 10-speed auto is much better to drive. No CVT BS. And 32+ mpg is plenty good enough. The savings wasn't that big.
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 08, 2019, 07:57:17 AM
And the oil dilution problem is supposed to be only a big issue in the Canadian provinces and colder US states...
I live in sub-tropical Georgia.
Oil was changed by a Honda dealer May 1st 2019 at 15,088 miles. Today, 3,056 miles later: -
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDSK9Swc/Oil-Level-sm.jpg)
Until Honda has a real solution, all I can say is I would change the oil every 2000-ish miles (and the filter every 6000-ish), and use a higher viscosity oil (5w-30 instead of 5w-20) to compensate for the dilution. I think that would be the best for the engine. But that doesn't matter if you plan on using the Honda dealer for all oil changes for the sake of the warranty. Let the engine die on their terms.
Yeah, this 1.5t oil dilution problem is a real issue. I don't think it's just a software issue like they claim. They say they're running too rich at startup, but I think it's a tolerance stackup and thermal expansion issue, which is a biiiiig design problem.
Quote from: MrH on July 08, 2019, 08:48:27 AM
Yeah, this 1.5t oil dilution problem is a real issue. I don't think it's just a software issue like they claim. They say they're running too rich at startup, but I think it's a tolerance stackup and thermal expansion issue, which is a biiiiig design problem.
What engine do you have in your accord?
Quote from: MrH on July 08, 2019, 08:48:27 AM
Yeah, this 1.5t oil dilution problem is a real issue. I don't think it's just a software issue like they claim. They say they're running too rich at startup, but I think it's a tolerance stackup and thermal expansion issue, which is a biiiiig design problem.
Mike - I'm reading through your "New Crossover for the house" thread...
The CR-V forums are alive with people who've had the supposed "fix" but are still having problems. I'd planned to keep the car 10 years. I'm thinking trade it in while it still has some reputation, take the loss & chalk it up to experience.
I bought a loaded CR-V because it looked best on paper & Honda had its reliability halo. I just don't want to deal with the BS of bickering with the dealer & disingenuous service reps.
The direct injection system involves (with Fords anyway) a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump. The high pressure pump generates around 1500 PSI, and is driven by a cam lobe, It's mounted on the engine, lubricated by engine oil. If I had a Ford with this issue, the first thing I would expect is an issue with the high pressure pump.
Quote from: shp4man on July 08, 2019, 09:58:48 AM
The direct injection system involves (with Fords anyway) a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump. The high pressure pump generates around 1500 PSI, and is driven by a cam lobe, It's mounted on the engine, lubricated by engine oil. If I had a Ford with this issue, the first thing I would expect is an issue with the high pressure pump.
It seems to me that if the pump or a sensor was faulty, it would trigger a trouble code.
If fuel is leaking into the crankcase instead of being burned, that would cause a lean condition and the fuel trim would enrichen further to compensate, which would exacerbate the problem. Perhaps resetting the fuel trim every day would help.
If any of you have a filled a mower or weed whacker with 2-stroke fuel, you'll know what the dipstick (& my hands) smelled like what I took the photo above.
Quote from: shp4man on July 08, 2019, 09:58:48 AM
The direct injection system involves (with Fords anyway) a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump. The high pressure pump generates around 1500 PSI, and is driven by a cam lobe, It's mounted on the engine, lubricated by engine oil. If I had a Ford with this issue, the first thing I would expect is an issue with the high pressure pump.
When does the fuel get sprayed into the combustion chamber, before, during or at the top of the compression stroke?
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 08, 2019, 10:16:43 AM
When does the fuel get sprayed into the combustion chamber, before, during or at the top of the compression stroke?
It's timed by the PCM. (engine computer).
Quote from: shp4man on July 08, 2019, 10:52:30 AM
It's timed by the PCM. (engine computer).
Does it vary? I understand that some DI engines spray multiple times, partly for cooling. Don't know if they all have similar setups. If the injectors spray at the top of the compression cycle when the pressure is at its utmost...requiring a high pressure burst from the injector...and considering that the 1.5t Honda engine is fairly high compression 10.6, it's conceivable that some of the fuel is forced passed the rings, especially on a cold engine. I can't imagine, with all of Honda's experience with engines, that they have not fitted proper rings on the pistons, but maybe miscalculated on the effect of the pressure. They did take great pains to make the engine as efficient as possible, but may have gone a step beyond.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 08, 2019, 08:57:39 AM
What engine do you have in your accord?
The 2.0t, which seems to be fine.
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 08, 2019, 09:24:10 AM
Mike - I'm reading through your "New Crossover for the house" thread...
The CR-V forums are alive with people who've had the supposed "fix" but are still having problems.
I'd planned to keep the car 10 years. I'm thinking trade it in while it still has some reputation, take the loss & chalk it up to experience.
I bought a loaded CR-V because it looked best on paper & Honda had its reliability halo. I just don't want to deal with the BS of bickering with the dealer & disingenuous service reps.
Yeah, I don't know what's going to happen. Sounds like you have a pretty bad example. I would be on Honda's ass, pushing for a buy back. Then go buy a new Outback or CX-5. I wouldn't sell it at a massive loss before exhausting every option with Honda.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 08, 2019, 08:33:37 AM
Until Honda has a real solution, all I can say is I would change the oil every 2000-ish miles (and the filter every 6000-ish), and use a higher viscosity oil (5w-30 instead of 5w-20) to compensate for the dilution. I think that would be the best for the engine. But that doesn't matter if you plan on using the Honda dealer for all oil changes for the sake of the warranty. Let the engine die on their terms.
I'd be interested to see if thicker oil helped.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 08, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
Does it vary? I understand that some DI engines spray multiple times, partly for cooling. Don't know if they all have similar setups. If the injectors spray at the top of the compression cycle when the pressure is at its utmost...requiring a high pressure burst from the injector...and considering that the 1.5t Honda engine is fairly high compression 10.6, it's conceivable that some of the fuel is forced passed the rings, especially on a cold engine. I can't imagine, with all of Honda's experience with engines, that they have not fitted proper rings on the pistons, but maybe miscalculated on the effect of the pressure. They did take great pains to make the engine as efficient as possible, but may have gone a step beyond.
When the engine is still cold, they're getting too much blow-by. They run really rich on cold start up to try to warm up the cats for emission reasons, but it sounds like that's when they're getting all this blow-by. Everyone is going to less drag on the rings + thinner viscosity oil to try to reduce drag. Seems like they flew a little too close to the sun on this one.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 08, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
I'd be interested to see if thicker oil helped.
It would help with lubrication, but not so much the gas blowing past the rings.
Perhaps using an engine block heater would help. :lol:
They should have put the 2.0T into the CR-V.
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on July 08, 2019, 02:30:45 PM
They should have put the 2.0T into the CR-V.
That would hurt the RDX. I think the better engine upgrade would have been the hybrid setup from the Accord.
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on July 08, 2019, 02:30:45 PM
They should have put the 2.0T into the CR-V.
Or just the 2.4 NA that's in the trouble-free poverty spec CR-V
But then their published fuel consumption numbers would look worse.
I suppose though they'd look better if VOCs were included in the numbers.
GreenPeace warriors will not be happy at the smog from the plume of gasoline vapors that trail CR-Vs
You need to lawyer up and get Honda to buy it back or replace the engine... No excuse for that much blowby
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 09, 2019, 08:55:40 AM
Or just the 2.4 NA that's in the trouble-free poverty spec CR-V
But then their published fuel consumption numbers would look worse.
I suppose though they'd look better if VOCs were included in the numbers.
GreenPeace warriors will not be happy at the smog from the plume of gasoline vapors that trail CR-Vs
Couldn't they improve numbers by simply swapping in a super tall final drive and programming the transmission for miserly driving?
Quote from: Submariner on July 09, 2019, 10:57:51 AM
Couldn't they improve numbers by simply swapping in a super tall final drive and programming the transmission for miserly driving?
No, not really. It's a lot more complicated than that. Super tall gearing only helps if you make power at that RPM and can do it efficiently.
In real life.... EPA tests are a whole different kettle of fish
I still think the hybrid version would have been the better range topper, with a mega detuned 2.0T in a distant second
I made contact with Service Manager at the place we bought the CR-V from, nice guy, - emailed him my documentation of the problem: the photo above, the oil analysis result, etc.
The rep from Honda happens to be visiting the dealer today so the issue will be raised with her.
Maybe I'll get an answer to "What can Honda do about it?"
Well. No luck there, since my car is not on the list. Guessing because I live in a sunbelt state..
So, on the service manager's recommendation, I've opened a case with American Honda.
Drive it into a lake.
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 12, 2019, 04:59:13 PM
Well. No luck there, since my car is not on the list. Guessing because I live in a sunbelt state..
So, on the service manager's recommendation, I've opened a case with American Honda.
I don't know about Georgia, but here in CA, more than three failed repair attempts on the same problem is grounds for a buy-back. Be aware, though, it's a "deal", like any other car deal. They want you to basically trade it in on a new car- value is negotiable.
My need is for a modern, reliable, compact-medium SUV. My goal was to buy new and keep it 10 years. The CR-V was an easy win on paper, but i remember making a decision to set aside my prejudice against the new practice of using small turbos in biggish vehicles.
So far I think my prejudice is well-founded.
Your prejudice is very well founded.
There's a reason why the best automaker in the world (Toyota) has skipped the turbo fad.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 12, 2019, 11:23:01 PM
Your prejudice is very well founded.
There's a reason why the best automaker in the world (Toyota) has skipped the turbo fad.
Not sure if they "skipped" it, or if they are just really slow to adopt. Remember that Toyota was also the last to abandon cassette players and I'm pretty sure the Corolla was the last vehicle in its class to abandon the once ubiquitous 4-speed auto in favor of either CVT or something with a higher gear count. Outside of the Prius and hybrid drivetrain tech, Toyota is not a company I would consider to have been, historically, on the cutting edge of car tech.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 12, 2019, 11:23:01 PM
Your prejudice is very well founded.
There's a reason why the best automaker in the world (Toyota) has skipped the turbo fad.
They are so good they need other companies to design cars for them...
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 12, 2019, 05:54:25 PM
My need is for a modern, reliable, compact-medium SUV. My goal was to buy new and keep it 10 years. The CR-V was an easy win on paper, but i remember making a decision to set aside my prejudice against the new practice of using small turbos in biggish vehicles.
So far I think my prejudice is well-founded.
Small displacement turbo engines work well in just about ever other application. Honda may have aimed a bit too high in order to achieve maximum efficiency. Even the best manufacturers have their lemons.
Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
Not sure if they "skipped" it, or if they are just really slow to adopt. Remember that Toyota was also the last to abandon cassette players and I'm pretty sure the Corolla was the last vehicle in its class to abandon the once ubiquitous 4-speed auto in favor of either CVT or something with a higher gear count. Outside of the Prius and hybrid drivetrain tech, Toyota is not a company I would consider to have been, historically, on the cutting edge of car tech.
I don't think the analogy quite holds. But would your rather have a Ford Focus w/DCT, Nissan Versa w/CVT or a Corolla w/4sp AT? Innovation isn't always what is new/fancy/whatever. Also, Toyota changed the world of manufacturing (Toyota Production System) which is one of the most impactful innovations in modern industrial history.
Turbos have been around for decades, and the advantages, esp. for plebeian vehicles, has always been dubious, as we see ITT, Ford Ecoboost, etc., plus Toyota is no stranger to turbos having had many many Turbo models in the past (Supra, MR-2, many JDM models) and plus one of the most legendary turbo motors of all time, the 2JZ.
If Toyota returns to the turbo path, if history is any indicator, it will be the best implementation (at least from a reliability and mpg POV). They're not there yet because they're still working on cracking the code and actually making turbos a unquestionably better value proposition for plebeian vehicles.
You can't take your lone experience and apply it to literally every vehicle ever, even those with the same exact engine. Anecdotes aren't statistics.
Its also very possible that maybe you just got a lemon, which sometimes just happens with literally every manufacturer, even the ones with strong reputations.
FWIW I've got several friends with cars that have that 1.5T and they haven't had any issues. Even asked my Honda tech friend, and he says he's not really seen any oil dillusion cases, even though there is a service bulletin for it.
But also, I think it's time we admit that maybe Japanese chefs also tend to have design and manufacturing issues.
Just from my experience from working on cars, buying and selling shit, Toyota vehicles and Honda cars have issues:
2006-2008 Honda Civic R18 blocks are literally casted wrong and will likely crack engine blocks for no reason at all
The 2AZFE that Toyota used for basically all its FWD cars from 2002-2010 is notorious for having mediocre rod bearings, and having head gasket and oil consumption issues
the 1ZZFE from the 1998-2006 corolla is also notoriously an oil burner
Mazda's 2.3L MZR motor is known to be crap
L15 2009+ Honda fits have issues with popping out spark plugs occasionally, and the whole has to be helicoiled or possibly the entire head needs to be replaced
I'm not saying that everything is totally equal and that "well, Euro cars are just as reliable!" But i think we should drop the notion that Japanese = never breaks ever, when that's never been true, and arguably they're the worst about getting to admit issues with their product.
Yes, Japanese tiny little econoboxes were more reliable than those made by domestic manufacturers who were producing compromised crap cars into the '90s. That is no longer true.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 13, 2019, 09:45:07 AM
Yes, Japanese tiny little econoboxes were more reliable than those made by domestic manufacturers who were producing compromised crap cars into the '90s. That is no longer true.
No, I think they're definitely less problematic than American and European cars, I'm just saying that they've literally always had their issues, both then and now.
Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
Not sure if they "skipped" it, or if they are just really slow to adopt. Remember that Toyota was also the last to abandon cassette players and I'm pretty sure the Corolla was the last vehicle in its class to abandon the once ubiquitous 4-speed auto in favor of either CVT or something with a higher gear count. Outside of the Prius and hybrid drivetrain tech, Toyota is not a company I would consider to have been, historically, on the cutting edge of car tech.
I guess time will tell, though I think Toyota's reluctance to adopt new tech is a large part of their great reliability record - they make sure they get it right. It's definitely one of the reasons why Tacomas and 4Runners are so popular despite being on old platforms.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2019, 09:47:30 AM
No, I think they're definitely less problematic than American and European cars, I'm just saying that they've literally always had their issues, both then and now.
It seems like the gap has closed a bit though.
But yeah, AT Accords from the 98-02 era are another example.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2019, 09:47:30 AM
No, I think they're definitely less problematic than American and European cars, I'm just saying that they've literally always had their issues, both then and now.
I believe a lot of it is perception, a carry-over from when domestics were horrible.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on July 13, 2019, 09:47:58 AM
I guess time will tell, though I think Toyota's reluctance to adopt new tech is a large part of their great reliability record - they make sure they get it right. It's definitely one of the reasons why Tacomas and 4Runners are so popular despite being on old platforms.
Yup
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2019, 09:18:49 AM
You can't take your lone experience and apply it to literally every vehicle ever, even those with the same exact engine. Anecdotes aren't statistics.
Its also very possible that maybe you just got a lemon, which sometimes just happens with literally every manufacturer, even the ones with strong reputations.
FWIW I've got several friends with cars that have that 1.5T and they haven't had any issues. Even asked my Honda tech friend, and he says he's not really seen any oil dillusion cases, even though there is a service bulletin for it.
I'd say it's widespread enough with the 1.5T that it can't be written off as anomalous. Honda issued a TSB after all.
I'm neutral on turbos. Maybe slightly negative. I don't plan on buying another one
Small displacement turbos, much like hybrids, are an interim stage pending EVs, whether battery or hydrogen. Driven sensibly, they do perform more efficiently with power on tap when needed. Properly engineered, Ecoboost for example, perhaps Mercedes, are reliable with few quality issues.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2019, 10:06:29 AM
I'd say it's widespread enough with the 1.5T that it can't be written off as anomalous. Honda issued a TSB after all.
I'm neutral on turbos. Maybe slightly negative. I don't plan on buying another one
Don't ever look at any GM or Ford service bulletins, then.
I think this forum's aversion towards turbos is weird, especially since back in like 2002 I'm sure F&F lancer evo crazy.
I've been pretty much pleased with my car, even if it's been kind of mediocre about quality.
Remember how hybrids were going to change the world? ~20 years on and the only hybrid worth mentioning is the Prius, and it's pretty much a sales curiosity, being WAY WAY outsold by the likes of the Rav-4, Corolla, Civic, Accord, etc. Same as it will be for EVs and hydrogen and my bet, turbos - interesting, but curiosities at best.
Turbos + gasoline will always be a recipe for poor(er) mpg and reliability due to the inherent science that underpins them; mainly, that turbo motors have to run a lower compression ratio (and of course that the turbo adds a bunch of stuff, particularly the turbo, which is baked in super high temps).
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 11:06:55 AM
Remember how hybrids were going to change the world? ~20 years on and the only hybrid worth mentioning is the Prius, and it's pretty much a sales curiosity, being WAY WAY outsold by the likes of the Rav-4, Corolla, Civic, Accord, etc. Same as it will be for EVs and hydrogen and my bet, turbos - interesting, but curiosities at best.
Turbos + gasoline will always be a recipe for poor(er) mpg and reliability due to the inherent science that underpins them; mainly, that turbo motors have to run a lower compression ratio (and of course that the turbo adds a bunch of stuff, particularly the turbo, which is baked in super high temps).
Bear in mind that hybrids are still around in various forms. That Ecoboost tech was chosen as a better (more financially feasible) option to serve as an interim technology until battery technology/fuel cell development and infrastructure was advanced to a degree whereby it supersedes all forms of anything requiring an I/C engine.
That is the future.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 13, 2019, 12:49:39 PM
Bear in mind that hybrids are still around in various forms. That Ecoboost tech was chosen as a better (more financially feasible) option to serve as an interim technology until battery technology/fuel cell development and infrastructure was advanced to a degree whereby it supersedes all forms of anything requiring an I/C engine.
That is the future.
True, hybrids exist in silence. For example, and USDM Audi A6 will have a mild hybrid powertrain. But then again that is for addressing acceleration, turbo lag and turbo MPG issues with jackrabbit starts (i.e., normal driving).
Ford made no such conscious choice regarding Ecoboost since Ford has zero sustained investment in EVs (there's the Focus Electric, but Ford sold all of ~500 in 2018). Ford just announced yesterday that it is "partnering" with VW for future EV tech - which means it will use VW tech because it has none of its own that can compete.
EVs, hydrogen, etc., are not the future, unless fascist immoral government action makes it so, which nobody wants of course. No, that boring ass stripper Corolla or Camry or Rav4 is the future of environmnetal sustainability and frugality, if people really cared about such things (which they don't, obviously).
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 01:21:35 PM
True, hybrids exist in silence. For example, and USDM Audi A6 will have a mild hybrid powertrain. But then again that is for addressing acceleration, turbo lag and turbo MPG issues with jackrabbit starts (i.e., normal driving).
Ford made no such conscious choice regarding Ecoboost since Ford has zero sustained investment in EVs (there's the Focus Electric, but Ford sold all of ~500 in 2018). Ford just announced yesterday that it is "partnering" with VW for future EV tech - which means it will use VW tech because it has none of its own that can compete.
EVs, hydrogen, etc., are not the future, unless fascist immoral government action makes it so, which nobody wants of course. No, that boring ass stripper Corolla or Camry or Rav4 is the future of environmnetal sustainability and frugality, if people really cared about such things (which they don't, obviously).
You, obviously, haven't been following the automotive technology trends over the past few years. ;)
Ford determinately chose the path of small displacement turbo engines a dozen or so years ago as a way of meeting efficiency standards rather than going the more expensive way of hybrids and diesel. When it was proven that it was successful, the other major brands fell in line, hence the proliferation of small displacement turbo engines all over the place. Of course, some went the 'displacement-on-demand' route, which was a folly to begin with.
The next stage is now here though, EVs, whether rechargeable battery or fuel cell. Obviously, rechargeable batteries will be either an interim until fuel cells are more feasible or they will advance in parallel.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 13, 2019, 01:42:07 PM
You, obviously, haven't been following the automotive technology trends over the past few years. ;)
Ford determinately chose the path of small displacement turbo engines a dozen or so years ago as a way of meeting efficiency standards rather than going the more expensive way of hybrids and diesel. When it was proven that it was successful, the other major brands fell in line, hence the proliferation of small displacement turbo engines all over the place. Of course, some went the 'displacement-on-demand' route, which was a folly to begin with.
The next stage is now here though, EVs, whether rechargeable battery or fuel cell. Obviously, rechargeable batteries will be either an interim until fuel cells are more feasible or they will advance in parallel.
Ford chose Ecoboost, but not in lieu of instead of EVs, as you had claimed. Ford is way behind all other full-line automakers in EV tech (not that that's a bad thing really - EVs are a dog that don't hunt, but it matters from a political/PR POV, or, if fascist immoral law is enacted forcing the use of EVs).
Ecoboost was not so successful - lots of class-action lawsuits due to reliability and a moderate amount of bad PR due to real-world MPG not matching sticker rating. Ecoboost was also a factor in Ford dumping its cars - a 2.0 Eccoboost Taurus never should have happened. And Ford also chose to not use the upmarket 400-450 hp 3.5L Ecoboost in the F-Super Duty, choosing rather to take a page from GM's playbook and revert back to a pooprod gas V8.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 04:28:57 PM
Ford chose Ecoboost, but not in lieu of instead of EVs, as you had claimed. Ford is way behind all other full-line automakers in EV tech (not that that's a bad thing really - EVs are a dog that don't hunt, but it matters from a political/PR POV, or, if fascist immoral law is enacted forcing the use of EVs).
Ecoboost was not so successful - lots of class-action lawsuits due to reliability and a moderate amount of bad PR due to real-world MPG not matching sticker rating. Ecoboost was also a factor in Ford dumping its cars - a 2.0 Eccoboost Taurus never should have happened. And Ford also chose to not use the upmarket 400-450 hp 3.5L Ecoboost in the F-Super Duty, choosing rather to take a page from GM's playbook and revert back to a pooprod gas V8.
Ford went with Ecoboost because batteries were, as then, not developed to a realistic level for general vehicle use; other than shorts trips to work and back, or to the mall. A dozen years have shown a significant level of improvement, so now is the time to get serious hence the deal with VW. Of course, the big enchilada is autonomous vehicles which Ford chose to invest in.
As for Godzilla, a good truck engine.
Regarding "fascist immoral law enacted forcing use of EVs". Not commenting on the fascist or immoral aspect, but these laws are not going to go away and have already created the fertile soil for the future dominance of EV. China and Western Europe have already enacted laws basically forcing EV adoption. These laws will not change.
:erjerbs:
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 11:06:55 AM
Turbos + gasoline will always be a recipe for poor(er) mpg and reliability due to the inherent science that underpins them; mainly, that turbo motors have to run a lower compression ratio (and of course that the turbo adds a bunch of stuff, particularly the turbo, which is baked in super high temps).
and of course that all has been proven to be bullshit in various tests and the fact it's the direction every automaker has headed
Mind if I ask what car you owned that had a turbo? A Civic with the 1.5T (coupe, hatch or Si) 6MT with a lifetime powertrain warranty is mighty tempting, issues and all. There's also one 2018 Golf 1.8T 5MT for 18K that I've been swayed to entertain as well.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2019, 10:06:29 AM
I'd say it's widespread enough with the 1.5T that it can't be written off as anomalous. Honda issued a TSB after all.
I'm neutral on turbos. Maybe slightly negative. I don't plan on buying another one
Quote from: veeman on July 13, 2019, 05:46:07 PM
Regarding "fascist immoral law enacted forcing use of EVs". Not commenting on the fascist or immoral aspect, but these laws are not going to go away and have already created the fertile soil for the future dominance of EV. China and Western Europe have already enacted laws basically forcing EV adoption. These laws will not change.
The laws will go away if people can't afford EVs and companies can't turn a profit making EVs, both of which are true at present, and both of which have no conceivable remedy, other than state ownership, akin to the railroads or airlines.
Both Europe and China have profound cultural and financial issues on the horizon, akin to what Japan has been facing the last ~15 years. Japan has been trying to hit the EV and hybrid thing hard, but even given huge government action in that direction, and an extreme conservation culture found nowhere on the planet, EVs are still a dog that don't hunt.
EVs will never be more than what they've always been. For decades EVs have been used in industry - buses, forklifts, golf carts, etc. - and they work good for those very limited applications, and that is where EVs will stay.
Quote from: r0tor on July 13, 2019, 06:46:15 PM
and of course that all has been proven to be bullshit in various tests and the fact it's the direction every automaker has headed
Not at all, even if turbo motors didn't get worse mpg they will always be less durable and more expensive to repair.
The largest automaker in the world (Toyota) is largely skipping turbos, and some of the top selling vehicles in the world, such as GM and Ram trucks, are also N/A.
And as we know, some places in the world tax displacement, even if the smaller motor gets worse MPG (i.e., false premise).
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 11:08:16 PM
EVs will never be more than what they've always been. For decades EVs have been used in industry - buses, forklifts, golf carts, etc. - and they work good for those very limited applications, and that is where EVs will stay.
Why do I feel like the naysayers were saying the exact same thing about electrifying buses, forklifts, golf carts, etc... decades ago when those things weren't electric?
Quote from: MX793 on July 14, 2019, 05:25:04 AM
Why do I feel like the naysayers were saying the exact same thing about electrifying buses, forklifts, golf carts, etc... decades ago when those things weren't electric?
The boilerplate of such things was electric commuter trolleys/trains which hit the scene in force circa 1900, and there is material advantage to an electric forklift (operating indoors) whereas there is no analog with retail EVs, save for maybe city commuting, but again that was solved ~100 years ago with electric trolleys and buses.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2019, 11:06:55 AM
Remember how hybrids were going to change the world? ~20 years on and the only hybrid worth mentioning is the Prius, and it's pretty much a sales curiosity, being WAY WAY outsold by the likes of the Rav-4, Corolla, Civic, Accord, etc. Same as it will be for EVs and hydrogen and my bet, turbos - interesting, but curiosities at best.
Turbos + gasoline will always be a recipe for poor(er) mpg and reliability due to the inherent science that underpins them; mainly, that turbo motors have to run a lower compression ratio (and of course that the turbo adds a bunch of stuff, particularly the turbo, which is baked in super high temps).
The reason the Prius is a sales curiosity is because its tech has been transferred to normal, better vehicles like the RAV4, Corolla, Civic, Accord etc.
Turbo cars are far from a sales curiousity as well. More than half of F150 sales are Ecoboost. Every German car besides a few limited edition Porsches are turbo. Every Honda Accord is either turbocharged or a hybrid (how curious)
I am all for the power of positive thinking but stating your wishes as fact doesn't quite make for convincing arguments
Quote from: MX793 on July 14, 2019, 05:25:04 AM
Why do I feel like the naysayers were saying the exact same thing about electrifying buses, forklifts, golf carts, etc... decades ago when those things weren't electric?
None of those things have the wide operating parameters and requirements of passenger cars
The success of previous, largely unrelated technologies is no guarantee of the success of BEVs. I've heard a lot of people dismiss BEV skepticism as the same kind of skepticism horse users had for cars. I personally just don't see the connection
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2019, 11:03:15 AM
None of those things have the wide operating parameters and requirements of passenger cars
The success of previous, largely unrelated technologies is no guarantee of the success of BEVs. I've heard a lot of people dismiss BEV skepticism as the same kind of skepticism horse users had for cars. I personally just don't see the connection
Then where is the answer of the fuel companies?
Formula 1 is desperately trying to introduce E-fuels. They will start with small quantities in 2021, but they think it will be 2025 before an entire season can be run on 100% E-fuels. That is quite negative for the prospect of filling up all road going petrol cars with E-fuels.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2019, 11:00:53 AM
The reason the Prius is a sales curiosity is because its tech has been transferred to normal, better vehicles like the RAV4, Corolla, Civic, Accord etc.
Turbo cars are far from a sales curiousity as well. More than half of F150 sales are Ecoboost. Every German car besides a few limited edition Porsches are turbo. Every Honda Accord is either turbocharged or a hybrid (how curious)
I am all for the power of positive thinking but stating your wishes as fact doesn't quite make for convincing arguments
Stats say otherwise. US hybrid market share peaked in 2013 and has been on the decline since, down more than 30%. Some of that is no doubt due to EV sales but how much is hard to say. Again, ~20 years on, and hybrid+EV+plug in is a sales curiosity, amounting to ~1.8% USDM market share, esp. spread across so many marques.
Sit tight. Ford spending big $$$ to develop an entirely new pooprod 450 hp gas N/A V8 rather than use the 450 hp Ecoboost 3.5L is a watershed moment on the subject of ubiquitous turbo usage, and GM sticking with their LT V8 and 3.6L V6, and Ram sticking with the Hemi and Pentastar V6, says a lot as well.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 14, 2019, 12:34:21 PM
Stats say otherwise. US hybrid market share peaked in 2013 and has been on the decline since, down more than 30%. Some of that is no doubt due to EV sales but how much is hard to say. Again, ~20 years on, and hybrid+EV+plug in is a sales curiosity, amounting to ~1.8% USDM market share, esp. spread across so many marques.
Sit tight. Ford spending big $$$ to develop an entirely new pooprod 450 hp gas N/A V8 rather than use the 450 hp Ecoboost 3.5L is a watershed moment on the subject of ubiquitous turbo usage, and GM sticking with their LT V8 and 3.6L V6, and Ram sticking with the Hemi and Pentastar V6, says a lot as well.
Strange that you do not seem to recall that hybrids, small displacement turbo engines, the laughable displacement-on-demand engines, have always been presented as an interim measure until electric/fuel cell/potential other energy sourced vehicles and their infrastructure, including widespread use of renewable energies, are more feasible. This has been my understanding.
That hybrids are on the wane and being replaced by more efficient rechargeable battery EVs is to be expected.
I wonder what gasoline-diluted oil is doing for the longevity of my turbo.
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 14, 2019, 04:21:02 PM
I wonder what gasoline-diluted oil is doing for the longevity of my turbo.
Probably keeping it mega clean. :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on July 14, 2019, 12:34:21 PM
Stats say otherwise. US hybrid market share peaked in 2013 and has been on the decline since, down more than 30%. Some of that is no doubt due to EV sales but how much is hard to say. Again, ~20 years on, and hybrid+EV+plug in is a sales curiosity, amounting to ~1.8% USDM market share, esp. spread across so many marques.
Sit tight. Ford spending big $$$ to develop an entirely new pooprod 450 hp gas N/A V8 rather than use the 450 hp Ecoboost 3.5L is a watershed moment on the subject of ubiquitous turbo usage, and GM sticking with their LT V8 and 3.6L V6, and Ram sticking with the Hemi and Pentastar V6, says a lot as well.
Not sure where your stats are from but as late as 2017 HEV market share alone was over 2%. PHEVs have gone from nothing to over 1% over the last 8 years. I'm sure BEVs push that to over 4%. Small change but let's at least deal with facts
Again the Germans have basically gone 100% turbo on their ICE fleet with no indication of reversing course. Every manufacturer has some variation of the 2.0T and some kind of turbo 6 pot too. Again hoping for manufacturers to ditch turbos and electrification is in no way an indicator that they actually will.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2019, 04:41:19 PM
Not sure where your stats are from but as late as 2017 HEV market share alone was over 2%. PHEVs have gone from nothing to over 1% over the last 8 years. I'm sure BEVs push that to over 4%. Small change but let's at least deal with facts
Again the Germans have basically gone 100% turbo on their ICE fleet with no indication of reversing course. Every manufacturer has some variation of the 2.0T and some kind of turbo 6 pot too. Again hoping for manufacturers to ditch turbos and electrification is in no way an indicator that they actually will.
Yes it is! I've personally talked to Mr. BMW himself! Forced induction is O-U-T and so passè.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2019, 04:41:19 PM
Not sure where your stats are from but as late as 2017 HEV market share alone was over 2%. PHEVs have gone from nothing to over 1% over the last 8 years. I'm sure BEVs push that to over 4%. Small change but let's at least deal with facts
Again the Germans have basically gone 100% turbo on their ICE fleet with no indication of reversing course. Every manufacturer has some variation of the 2.0T and some kind of turbo 6 pot too. Again hoping for manufacturers to ditch turbos and electrification is in no way an indicator that they actually will.
Europe was also way in on diesel, and it was a disaster, for the same base reasons, and ze Germans have never built great motors, so sit tight ;).
Oh right... The market that sells to the lowest common denominator (you know, completely overpriced massive trucks that sell entirely on image and will never be used for anything other that getting groceries at 15mpg) is a clear indication of the future of engine development
Quote from: GoCougs on July 14, 2019, 09:52:39 PM
Europe was also way in on diesel, and it was a disaster, for the same base reasons, and ze Germans have never built great motors, so sit tight ;).
More baseless prognostication
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 05:09:18 AM
Oh right... The market that sells to the lowest common denominator (you know, completely overpriced massive trucks that sell entirely on image and will never be used for anything other that getting groceries at 15mpg) is a clear indication of the future of engine development
Why not lead by example... trade in your sports sedan and luxury SUV for some more self righteous cars to show how much better you are than everybody
Yes the US buy a lot of excessive pointless vehicles. We do because we can
You right... Let me sell everything and plunk down $60k for something that could have been designed 30 years ago... But hey, it can tow my non existant 10,000lb boat and it has a huuuuge screen and enoooooormous grill
I mean you have 4 cars in a household with 2 drivers... and your daily is complete overkill for your commute. You're in no position to bitch about other people's excess :huh:
Only 3 cars... A 16 year old Mazda, a 9 year old Jeep, and the absolute perfect car for my commute
Excuse my excess
Does your wife not have a car :confused:
And yes I excuse your excesses the way you should excuse those of pickup truck drivers... an EB F150 with the old 6AT gets better combined gas mileage than your JGC or RX-8 :wtf:
Wife drives the Jeep.
The RX8 has no trade in value so it is not leaving and the wife already thinks the JGC is too big... Don't see a future for a truck and if there was a need there is no reason not to buy a 20 year old truck over an overpriced new one
Hey man I'm not judging or commanding, that's your forte
Just saying it's stupid to dump on the F150 when your JGC has cost about the same and got the same gas mileage for the last decade or so, and 2 out of the 3 vehicles you own can't beat an F150's gas mileage
Glass stones and all that, practice what you preach
If r0tor were to practice what he preached, he'd be sniffing his own farts and driving a Prius for sure :lol:
I paid $35k new for the JGC... A mildly equipped ecoboost 4WD F150 is in the mid $50k and at the end of the day still drives and handles like a 20 year old truck
Yea, not thanks... Next vehicle purchase will actually be an upgrade in ride handling and performance
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 08:36:45 AM
I paid $35k new for the JGC... A mildly equipped ecoboost 4WD F150 is in the mid $50k and at the end of the day still drives and handles like a 20 year old truck
Yea, not thanks... Next vehicle purchase will actually be an upgrade in ride handling and performance
https://youtu.be/F8P5vGcf-NU
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 05:09:18 AM
Oh right... The market that sells to the lowest common denominator (you know, completely overpriced massive trucks that sell entirely on image and will never be used for anything other that getting groceries at 15mpg) is a clear indication of the future of engine development
Trucks are not overpriced if you can afford them (but they are ridiculous).
Some automakers have gone in hard on turbos, and some haven't. Those that have (Ford, Honda, ze Germans to a bit lesser extent) have had moderate to major problems with them.
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 08:36:45 AM
I paid $35k new for the JGC... A mildly equipped ecoboost 4WD F150 is in the mid $50k and at the end of the day still drives and handles like a 20 year old truck
Yea, not thanks... Next vehicle purchase will actually be an upgrade in ride handling and performance
$35k in 2010 is ~$49k today.
A moderately-equipped MY2010 F-150 4WD (F-150 4WD SuperCrew 145' XLT V8) had an MSRP of $35,405: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2010
A moderately equipped MY2019 F150 4WD (F-150 XLT 4WD SuperCab 8' Box w/Ecoboost 3.5L) has an MSRP of $42,750: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2019
So yes, Sporty gets the W here - you effectively bought an F150 Ecoboost (i.e., the benefits therein - high(ish) MSRP, ~15 MPG, excess utility, lumbering road manners, but hey, at least it's smaller).
Quote from: GoCougs on July 15, 2019, 09:08:46 AM
$35k in 2010 is ~$49k today.
A moderately-equipped MY2010 F-150 4WD (F-150 4WD SuperCrew 145' XLT V8) had an MSRP of $35,405: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2010
A moderately equipped MY2019 F150 4WD (F-150 XLT 4WD SuperCab 8' Box w/Ecoboost 3.5L) has an MSRP of $42,750: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2019
So yes, Sporty gets the W here - you effectively bought an F150 Ecoboost (i.e., the benefits therein - high(ish) MSRP, ~15 MPG, excess utility, lumbering road manners, but hey, at least it's smaller).
I see you've caught on to this 'alternative facts' thing. ;)
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 15, 2019, 08:39:23 AM
https://youtu.be/F8P5vGcf-NU
One of the more beautiful videos on the internet. Along with End of the World and Neature Walks.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 15, 2019, 09:08:46 AM
$35k in 2010 is ~$49k today.
A moderately-equipped MY2010 F-150 4WD (F-150 4WD SuperCrew 145' XLT V8) had an MSRP of $35,405: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2010
A moderately equipped MY2019 F150 4WD (F-150 XLT 4WD SuperCab 8' Box w/Ecoboost 3.5L) has an MSRP of $42,750: https://www.autotrader.com/Ford/F150/2019
So yes, Sporty gets the W here - you effectively bought an F150 Ecoboost (i.e., the benefits therein - high(ish) MSRP, ~15 MPG, excess utility, lumbering road manners, but hey, at least it's smaller).
Wtf...
$35k is ~$41k in 2019
Also a mid level trim F150 Lariat ecoboost 4 door 4WD 3.5L is over $50k with a couple options
Also... Wtf https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=512894720&zip=79765&makeCode1=FORD&modelCode1=F150PICKUP&dealerId=89181
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 09:54:23 AM
Also... Wtf https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=512894720&zip=79765&makeCode1=FORD&modelCode1=F150PICKUP&dealerId=89181
$95,000 over the original Raptor MSRP for the Shelby upgrades equates to $5,500 for each time I saw the Shelby name slapped on the truck. Seems like a bargain to me.
:wtf:
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 09:54:23 AM
Wtf...
$35k is ~$41k in 2019
Also a mid level trim F150 Lariat ecoboost 4 door 4WD 3.5L is over $50k with a couple options
Also... Wtf https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=512894720&zip=79765&makeCode1=FORD&modelCode1=F150PICKUP&dealerId=89181
Custom Shelby Raptor?
You're in panic mode at the L. I get it, but you're only making it worse.
The Lariat is a higher end trim level, you opted for a mid/lower end Cherokee (esp. no V8) - XLT w/3.5L Ecoboost is a generous comparison - you're really more like an XL w/2.7L Ecoboost.
You bought the equivalent of an F150, save for it's a bit smaller. Don't throw stones, yada yada yada.
What on earth
Comparing a Grand Cherokee to an F-150 is like comparing an A4 to an Outback.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on July 15, 2019, 11:04:35 AM
Comparing a Grand Cherokee to an F-150 is like comparing an A4 to an Outback.
They are both equally needless gas guzzling overkill for going to work + buying groceries and both probably equally competent for r0tor's off-road beachery
And unlike the A4/Outback the F150/JGC are pretty close in price equally equipped.
But w/e I think I got my point across.
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 08:36:45 AM
Yea, not thanks... Next vehicle purchase will actually be an upgrade in ride handling and performance
So even MORE excess??? What more ride/handling/performance do you actually need, and why is any of that any more justifiable than whatever an F150 offers?
Why buy a new computer with the latest processor and latest specs when it's time to replace a 10 year old computer? Why not just buy another 10 year old computer? Both will p0st on carspin
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 12:50:39 PM
Why buy a new computer with the latest processor and latest specs when it's time to replace a 10 year old computer? Why not just buy another 10 year old computer? Both will p0st on carspin
:confused: you're the one arguing against people buying F150s...
Is this analogy to trying to justify your indulgence? Why is yours ok, but the F150 buyer's isn't?
This is ridiculous. Don't want a truck? Don't buy a truck. Not every truck owner is some tiny dicked asshole trying to ruin your day (I for one, have a small truck, so that tells you my confidence in my genital device).
ThisisCarSPIN and it is glorious.
Quote from: MrH on July 15, 2019, 12:55:54 PM
:confused: you're the one arguing against people buying F150s...
Is this analogy to trying to justify your indulgence? Why is yours ok, but the F150 buyer's isn't?
I'm not arguing against people buying F150s...
Only said...
The market that sells to the lowest common denominator (you know, completely overpriced massive trucks that sell entirely on image and will never be used for anything other that getting groceries at 15mpg)
Which is true as nobody that buys a $70k truck is actually going to use it for actual truck duty... They will get a beater for that
I can think of very few people around here that have trucks that don't do truck things with their trucks. And the people dropping big dollars (like for 1/2 or 3/4 ton trucks) even more so...can't tow that $75k 5th wheel with a damn beater!
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 15, 2019, 01:29:00 PM
I can think of very few people around here that have trucks that don't do truck things with their trucks. And the people dropping big dollars (like for 1/2 or 3/4 ton trucks) even more so...can't tow that $75k 5th wheel with a damn beater!
Yes, how can you have a tailgate party with no tailgate?
Quote from: r0tor on July 15, 2019, 01:20:33 PM
I'm not arguing against people buying F150s...
Only said...
The market that sells to the lowest common denominator (you know, completely overpriced massive trucks that sell entirely on image and will never be used for anything other that getting groceries at 15mpg)
Which is true as nobody that buys a $70k truck is actually going to use it for actual truck duty... They will get a beater for that
Why are truck buyers the lowest common denominator for buying what they want? What does that make you?
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 15, 2019, 12:56:59 PM
This is ridiculous. Don't want a truck? Don't buy a truck. Not every truck owner is some tiny dicked asshole trying to ruin your day (I for one, have a small truck, so that tells you my confidence in my genital device).
My truck is smaller than yours. Ha! My dick is bigger!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 15, 2019, 02:07:12 PM
My truck is smaller than yours. Ha! My dick is bigger!
:rage:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 15, 2019, 11:42:30 AM
But w/e I think I got my point across.
To be honest, I have no idea what point you were trying to make. We were talking about what the best way forward for efficient cars, and you randomly decided that a 15 year old RX-8 and a 9 year old Grand Cherokee are somehow relevant.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 15, 2019, 02:07:12 PM
My truck is smaller than yours. Ha! My dick is bigger!
When I drive the Ranger, I have to put my dick in the passenger seat.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2019, 02:28:45 PM
When I drive the Ranger, I have to put my dick in the passenger seat.
Sure hope you put the seatbelt on that hog, too.
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 15, 2019, 02:30:55 PM
Sure hope you put the seatbelt on that hog, too.
Naw, man. Got to let it be free. Roll down the window.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
Naw, man. Got to let it be free. Roll down the window.
Just concerned about it getting cut up by the windshield in an accident, man.
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 15, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Just concerned about it getting cut up by the windshield in an accident, man.
They used laminated and tempered glass, even way back in '86... Yeah. If I ever crashed that thing, it would be pretty bad, and not because of the glass. Ranger is not for crashing.
I got a callback from American Honda today. Nice lady but as far as Honda is concerned it's not an issue for vehicles south of the Frost Belt.
My instinct is to trade it in for a RAV4 hybrid or something and try and recover some of my costs by joining the class action lawsuit.
Alternative is to hang onto it, live with a car that runs on diluted oil, and hope for the best.
Trade it in for a new Outback! Just hold out a few more months.
Quote from: MrH on July 15, 2019, 03:22:34 PM
Trade it in for a new Outback! Just hold out a few more months.
While Subaru obviously has a bit more experience with turbos, I wouldn't blame him if he'd prefer the current 3.6R over the upcoming XT.
Booooo!
Install a spark plug in the PCV valve. Bam, instant gasoline disposal.
:rockon:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
Naw, man. Got to let it be free. Roll down the window.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwJE5DEk7U ?t=02m09s
Checked the dipstick yesterday at work, and took the paper towel I'd wiped it with back inside.
Got my colleagues to sniff it. What does it smell like?
"Gasoline"
"Ugh gasoline"
"Gasoline"
"Gasoline"
Later I had another oil sample taken. It was at 3,300 miles (car is at 18,500). I'll send it for analysis today.
Pretty shitty that Honda isn't considering this a problem in all areas and not just northern states...
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 17, 2019, 07:42:44 AM
Checked the dipstick yesterday at work, and took the paper towel I'd wiped it with back inside.
Got my colleagues to sniff it. What does it smell like?
"Gasoline"
"Ugh gasoline"
"Gasoline"
"Gasoline"
Later I had another oil sample taken. It was at 3,300 miles (car is at 18,500). I'll send it for analysis today.
Apparently, gasoline begins to evaporate at 140 degrees. Not sure what your oil temperature is after the vehicle warms up, but I would think that it would be 140 degrees +. How long is your daily drive?
Old cars that I've had over the years, worn cylinders, rings, etc., no doubt leaked a good bit of gasoline into the oil, but the oil never really smelled of gasoline. Makes you wonder just how much gasoline in blowing into your crankcase.
Quote from: Morris Minor on July 17, 2019, 07:42:44 AM
I'll send it for analysis today.
Save analysis data for Honda claim?...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 17, 2019, 08:01:09 AM
Save analysis data for Honda claim?...
Thats prob the idea
The oil analysis labs probably have a treasure trove of data to help in a class action lawsuit. They can obviously tell if there's gas in the oil but also see if that gas is actually accelerating engine wear.
What a bummer. Try to do the responsible thing by buying a Honda and you get burnt. Hope it all works out man
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 17, 2019, 11:10:32 AM
Thats prob the idea
The oil analysis labs probably have a treasure trove of data to help in a class action lawsuit. They can obviously tell if there's gas in the oil but also see if that gas is actually accelerating engine wear.
What a bummer. Try to do the responsible thing by buying a Honda and you get burnt. Hope it all works out man
Thanks Sporty.
I got the official (& carefully worded) notice of the warranty extension today.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgkjg1RL/Honda-copy.png) (https://postimg.cc/K1D795N5)
Yesterday I received a call from American Honda. They'd received my email raising concerns about the evident oil dilution (first oil analysis, photo of dipstick). They have no further information. Case is being closed.
I said okay. I'll soon be getting the result from the sample taken last week. I'll send that to AHM too.
Then I'll:
- Document everything.
- Join the class action lawsuit.
- Bite the bullet, take the loss, & trade in the car for something else. I'll find a lightly used Outback or CX-5 or something. I'm done with new cars for a while.
I'm just a tad fucked off about this. My instinct is that accelerated wear is increasing the rate at which fuel is contaminating the oil.
Try to find a lawyer doing single claim lawsuits... With the focus transmission debacle the class action people got like a grand while people that sought out a handful of lawyers to file individual suits got 20x that amount.
How many miles does it have?
Quote from: r0tor on July 20, 2019, 04:18:08 PM
Try to find a lawyer doing single claim lawsuits... With the focus transmission debacle the class action people got like a grand while people that sought out a handful of lawyers to file individual suits got 20x that amount.
+1
I got my own lawyer for my Nissan Versa. He did a good job getting a settlement out of Nissan. PM me if you want his name.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 20, 2019, 04:20:44 PM
How many miles does it have?
18,500 - the car is 18-months old.
Looks like there's no need to panic yet. I'll keep an eye on things though.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4rPbt6q/CR-V-oil-analysis-08-02-19.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rd8HfVHq)
Maybe it just needed a longer break-in period.
18,500 miles? That's one helluva break-in period.
Note that this car does mostly long journeys. It gets thoroughly warmed up. Well it should get thoroughly warmed up.
IIRC the biggies to watch for are zinc and copper as those are what bearings are made of
I do think if there were a real problem we'd be hearing about engine failures by now. These engines have been on the road for 4 years
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 03, 2019, 07:33:15 AM
Note that this car does mostly long journeys. It gets thoroughly warmed up. Well it should get thoroughly warmed up.
Do you still smell gasoline when parked or in the garage?
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 03, 2019, 08:06:37 AM
Do you still smell gasoline when parked or in the garage?
Yes, but not now with the new oil. The smell will come back after a couple of thousand miles
Looks like your oil is already hosed after 3k miles... Don't see this being an improvement
I wasn't aware of this until last week when I was researching the Honda 1.5T but is it true that GDI motors all have some kind of gasoline smell in the oil? Perhaps it was just my imagination but when I smelled the MX-5's oil at 2K miles I swear there was a bit of a gasoline scent in there.
Quote from: r0tor on August 05, 2019, 06:12:22 PM
Looks like your oil is already hosed after 3k miles... Don't see this being an improvement
I dunno I'm sick of the whole thing.
Maybe I'll trade it in January - that will be two years... & it'll be at about 25,000 miles. Get a CPO Lexus SUV or something - something reliable where they don't treat you like shit.
:(
Can't go wrong with an RX.
Hmm. Checked CR-V's oil level last night. Way above full.
So either the dealership overfilled it at the last oil change (ten weeks & 2,000 miles ago)
Or the dipstick is wrong
Or gasoline is filling up the oil pan - even in hot weather.
Doesn't smell very gasoliney though - like it does in the cool months.
Edit: maybe they overfilled it to keep the dilution ratio down & push back the total failure date.
How's the colour?
Battery was dead this morning - just like the innumerable other owners' anecdotes in the CR-V forums and groups. We've had the car 34 months, & it's got 32,000 miles on the clock. They eat 12V batteries apparently & the OEM ones are cheap garbage, like the OEM tires.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 19, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
Battery was dead this morning - just like the innumerable other owners' anecdotes in the CR-V forums and groups. We've had the car 34 months, & it's got 32,000 miles on the clock. They eat 12V batteries apparently & the OEM ones are cheap garbage, like the OEM tires.
Are they making them in China now?
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 19, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
Battery was dead this morning - just like the innumerable other owners' anecdotes in the CR-V forums and groups. We've had the car 34 months, & it's got 32,000 miles on the clock. They eat 12V batteries apparently & the OEM ones are cheap garbage, like the OEM tires.
And the OEM engine :lol:
...just kidding...
Does it have an AGM battery or normal?
Hondas usually seem to have tiny motorcycle batteries.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 19, 2020, 06:41:30 PM
Hondas usually seem to have tiny motorcycle batteries.
And WHAT is up with that tiny tiny oil filter??..... On a 3.3L V6. :mask:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 19, 2020, 07:54:52 PM
And WHAT is up with that tiny tiny oil filter??..... On a 3.3L V6. :mask:
I dunno. Nissans are even worse.
Quote from: Laconian on November 19, 2020, 05:48:53 PM
And the OEM engine :lol:
...just kidding...
. I would have ritually anointed the new battery with a dab of oil but it reeked of gasoline.
Mrs Morris had to take the other car to tennis. Pissed of at the delay. Came home after the match, fixed me with her infamous I Mean Business blue eye stare: "We're trading this thing in"
My heart skipped a beat for some reason: maybe her beautiful eyes, maybe the thrill of car hunting.
Yep. It was the car hunting.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 19, 2020, 09:01:00 PM
. I would have ritually anointed the new battery with a dab of oil but it reeked of gasoline.
Mrs Morris had to take the other car to tennis. Pissed of at the delay. Came home after the match, fixed me with her infamous I Mean Business blue eye stare: "We're trading this thing in"
My heart skipped a beat for some reason: maybe her beautiful eyes, maybe the thrill of car hunting.
Yep. It was the car hunting.
Oh boy! Time for some vicarious shopping. :dance:
Maybe a CX-9?
I see CR has moved Mazda to the top of the reliability ratings & Toyota has been displaced: I can't remember a time when Toyota/Lexus were not at the top.
Quote:
Of the 26 brands ranked in the Consumer Reports reliability survey, Japanese automakers fared the best.
For the first time, the Japanese brand Mazda ranked at the top of the nonprofit organization's reliability list. Toyota vehicles ranked second and third. Toyota products had always topped the reliability rankings since the survey began in 2005, Consumer Reports said.
:Unquote
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html)
2.5 SKYACTIV (turbocharged), sounds good.
CX-9 in that amazing metallic blue. OMG. I've seen one in my neighborhood a few times, the fluid lines and deepness of the paint are just to die for (assuming the car is freshly washed).
I love the Soul Red color Mazda has. It's one of the best colors out there. Don't know how it would look on large car like a CX-9 though.
Quote from: veeman on November 20, 2020, 11:46:51 AM
I love the Soul Red color Mazda has. It's one of the best colors out there. Don't know how it would look on large car like a CX-9 though.
Every car should be soul red!
Quote from: veeman on November 20, 2020, 11:46:51 AM
I love the Soul Red color Mazda has. It's one of the best colors out there. Don't know how it would look on large car like a CX-9 though.
It would be easy to find in a parking lot...
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzT4gnD6/2018-Mazda-CX-9-Soul-Red-Crystal-Metallic-side-view-o.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 19, 2020, 09:01:00 PM
. I would have ritually anointed the new battery with a dab of oil but it reeked of gasoline.
Mrs Morris had to take the other car to tennis. Pissed of at the delay. Came home after the match, fixed me with her infamous I Mean Business blue eye stare: "We're trading this thing in"
My heart skipped a beat for some reason: maybe her beautiful eyes, maybe the thrill of car hunting.
Yep. It was the car hunting.
:lol:
How about a nice Kia Stinger?
My quick armchair opinion on the CX-9.
Positives.
It's reliable - most of the way into it's model cycle - bugs ironed out.
It's fun w/ *great* handling for an SUV.
It's good looking.
They've fixed the infotainment in the 2021.
It's made in Japan.
Negatives.
A bit bigger than we want - ideally we'd want something Edge-sized: between the CX-5 & 9
So-so fuel economy from a 4-banger that's well-stretched in a big vehicle & lacks a six's refinement.
Do you really need something bigger than the CX-5? It's not a small car, and it's just the two of you, right?
Quote from: Laconian on November 20, 2020, 02:54:35 PM
Do you really need something bigger than the CX-5? It's not a small car, and it's just the two of you, right?
Yup just for the two of us. The CX-5 did not make the cut when I was looking last time because its interior room was quite a bit down on the CR-V.
It might be more of a packaging thing, rather than overall vehicle size. Did you try the CX-30? Everybody's fawning over that thing.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 20, 2020, 02:45:12 PM
My quick armchair opinion on the CX-9.
Positives.
It's reliable - most of the way into it's model cycle - bugs ironed out.
It's fun w/ *great* handling for an SUV.
It's good looking.
They've fixed the infotainment in the 2021.
It's made in Japan.
Negatives.
A bit bigger than we want - ideally we'd want something Edge-sized: between the CX-5 & 9
So-so fuel economy from a 4-banger that's well-stretched in a big vehicle & lacks a six's refinement.
Ford Edge, more room where you need it. ST would be the model of choice. A few more bucks but 2.7 V6, 335 bhp, AWD, 8 spd.
Quote from: FoMoJo on November 20, 2020, 04:50:42 PM
Ford Edge, more room where you need it. ST would be the model of choice. A few more bucks but 2.7 V6, 335 bhp, AWD, 8 spd.
They are nice - surprised so few play in this midsized segment - I saw a rumor that Mazda is working on something between the CX-5 & 9.
On Mazda generally, I've probably told this anecdote before but, a few years ago I rented a car in Milwaukee - I'd specified a "full-size" & so fully expected to get some mediocre shitbox that domestic manufacturers churn out for fleet buyers & people with bad credit.
Picked it up in the dark rental parking deck, got out of the airport, and on the first curve of the on-ramp I woke up from my slightly pissed-off & hungry state & thought, "Holy crap - what do we have here?" It felt so responsive: taut & absolutely planted, a delight. Mazda6.
Highlander? (Lexus equivalent?)
Shame the CX-5 is too small, that's what I was going to suggest.
Does the NEW (current) CR-V have the same drivetrain/ issues?
If you really don't need the rear seatroom, new BRZ should be out soon?? :thumbsup:
I doubt it.. hard to talk average folks out of sitting up high once they've experienced an SUV..
Quote from: Laconian on November 21, 2020, 08:15:13 PM
I doubt it.. hard to talk average folks out of sitting up high once they've experienced an SUV..
I remember when most cars were of a height where one could slide into them rather than having to crouch down and slither and end up banging your head on the door frame. I blame Hudson for introducing the "step down" model, but at least they mandated that there be enough headroom so that men could keep their hats on while sitting in the car.
Stelvio... Find a leftover
I've paid off the remainder of the loan on the CR-V. First step to getting rid of it.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 27, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I've paid off the remainder of the loan on the CR-V. First step to getting rid of it.
Second step is sell it.
I've got $150 for it. :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 27, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I've paid off the remainder of the loan on the CR-V. First step to getting rid of it.
Trade it in. That would be the least headache of all the options.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 27, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I've paid off the remainder of the loan on the CR-V. First step to getting rid of it.
Quote from: shp4man on November 27, 2020, 11:39:37 AM
Trade it in. That would be the least headache of all the options.
Good advice. Selling it privately may result in a highly dissatisfied buyer who knows where you live.
Yup, I'll be trading it in against a Mazda or something. They can deal with it.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 27, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I've paid off the remainder of the loan on the CR-V. First step to getting rid of it.
woot woot!
I never cared for the "title in hand", it just didn't mean much to me. But man it was a HASSLE to buy our current Odyssey as the guy had to pay the bank off, we had to get our payment to them to release the lien, etc... etc...
It was an Army guy who could get in trouble if I contact their commander, so I wasn't worried. But we drove it several weeks with his plates and registration while waiting for paperwork. :mask:
Get an RX and call it a day, Morris
Quote from: CALL_911 on November 29, 2020, 10:13:05 AM
Get an RX and call it a day, Morris
I dunno - It's a serious possibility. It would keep Mrs Minor happy, she drives the CR-V most of the time anyway.
Stelvio.... Happy wife, happy life
Well - I got an auto loan approved. Just need to clean up the CR-V (it's in pristine shape) and venture out into the shark-infested waters of the Dealer Ocean.
We're thinking Mazda or Lexus.
I really like my Miata's interior and infotainment screen with the big knob instead of touchscreen. CX-5 looks somewhat similar.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 04, 2020, 02:10:24 PM
I really like my Miata's interior and infotainment screen with the big knob instead of touchscreen. CX-5 looks somewhat similar.
Yeah, Mazda's taken a iconoclastic "fuck touchscreens, they're awful for safety" tack and I LIKE it.
I like my touchscreen. :huh:
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 04, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
I like my touchscreen. :huh:
They still have touchscreens, but they're built around using a center console jog wheel.
Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2020, 03:50:52 PM
They still have touchscreens, but they're built around using a center console jog wheel.
How does that work when you want to enter an address into the GPS?
Voice recognition, doodle on a little touchpad (Audi), click around an onscreen keyboard.
Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2020, 04:00:30 PM
Voice recognition, doodle on a little touchpad (Audi), click around an onscreen keyboard.
Still seems easier, and less distracting, just to use a touchscreen.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 04, 2020, 04:25:15 PM
Still seems easier, and less distracting, just to use a touchscreen.
Touchscreens are a huge safety hazard if your car's in motion. The concentration and fine motor control required to press non-haptic buttons while moving is too much for most drivers to handle.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles
Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2020, 04:43:14 PM
Touchscreens are a huge safety hazard if your car's in motion. The concentration and fine motor control required to press non-haptic buttons while moving is too much for most drivers to handle.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles
Yes. Thank you, Mazda.
I very much preferred the non touch screen in my Audi vs the touchscreen in my VW.
It's easier to hold onto the rotary knob than be precise with a touch screen while driving on bumpy roads
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 04, 2020, 07:22:16 PM
It's easier to hold onto the rotary knob than be precise with a touch screen while driving on bumpy roads
Yeah. And over time I built a habit of knowing exactly how many detents to turn the wheel, or where to push the joystick. With a touch screen I'm just a n00b every time. Mashy mashy.
From armchair research, the AWD CX-9 is attractive: good looks, bit of elbow room, not too massive, reliable. And it's fun... handles well - important on the roads round here.
Wife on the Lexus RX, "That's really ugly."
Alfa uses the knob for infotainment... Wouldn't want it any other way
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 05, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
From armchair research, the AWD CX-9 is attractive: good looks, bit of elbow room, not too massive, reliable. And it's fun... handles well - important on the roads round here.
Wife on the Lexus RX, "That's really ugly."
What does she think of the CX-9?
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2020, 07:06:42 AM
Alfa uses the knob for infotainment... Wouldn't want it any other way
Discovery uses a knob to switch gears. Wouldn't want to get them confused.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 05, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
From armchair research, the AWD CX-9 is attractive: good looks, bit of elbow room, not too massive, reliable. And it's fun... handles well - important on the roads round here.
Wife on the Lexus RX, "That's really ugly."
What about a Volvo? Those seats, man.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 05, 2020, 09:13:32 AM
What does she think of the CX-9?
Oh yes - It's a good-looking vehicle.
We'll go out next week and start looking.
i see some rumors on the Interwebs that Mazda is going to switch to the goodness of a sharp-handling RWD platform. The idea is to step into the niche that BMW abandoned when they went softer and floatier.
This make sense to me - sprinkle a bit of the MX-5's magic dust onto the rest of the lineup.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 05, 2020, 02:47:37 PM
Oh yes - It's a good-looking vehicle.
We'll go out next week and start looking.
i see some rumors on the Interwebs that Mazda is going to switch to the goodness of a sharp-handling RWD platform. The idea is to step into the niche that BMW abandoned when they went softer and floatier.
This make sense to me - sprinkle a bit of the MX-5's magic dust onto the rest of the lineup.
The Explorer just switched back to RWD, but I don't know anything about good handling. I think there is an ST version.
Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2020, 04:43:14 PM
Touchscreens are a huge safety hazard if your car's in motion. The concentration and fine motor control required to press non-haptic buttons while moving is too much for most drivers to handle.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 04, 2020, 04:54:34 PM
Yes. Thank you, Mazda.
+23597235
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 05, 2020, 02:47:37 PM
Oh yes - It's a good-looking vehicle.
We'll go out next week and start looking.
i see some rumors on the Interwebs that Mazda is going to switch to the goodness of a sharp-handling RWD platform. The idea is to step into the niche that BMW abandoned when they went softer and floatier.
This make sense to me - sprinkle a bit of the MX-5's magic dust onto the rest of the lineup.
Inline sixes too, if you can believe it.
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2020, 06:00:30 PM
Inline sixes too, if you can believe it.
It would be good to see Mazda make something in the mold of the Austin Healey 3000, as they make the MX-5 in the spirit of the Lotus Elan.
An attainable roadster - 275-300 HP - bit of a bruiser but not too flamboyant
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 06, 2020, 03:15:14 PM
It would be good to see Mazda make something in the mold of the Austin Healey 3000, as they make the MX-5 in the spirit of the Lotus Elan.
An attainable roadster - 275-300 HP - bit of a bruiser but not too flamboyant
I'm starting to lose some hair in the back of my head, so... fixed roofs are fine, thanks :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on December 06, 2020, 03:16:54 PM
I'm starting to lose some hair in the back of my head, so... fixed roofs are fine, thanks :lol:
I took a trip one Summer, '75 i think, from TO to Rhode Island, top down all the way in my Spider, 70 plus on the thruway, wind blowing through my hair. I swear by the time I got back that my hairline had receded by at least a half an inch.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 06, 2020, 03:15:14 PM
It would be good to see Mazda make something in the mold of the Austin Healey 3000, as they make the MX-5 in the spirit of the Lotus Elan.
An attainable roadster - 275-300 HP - bit of a bruiser but not too flamboyant
I always felt that the Miata was more of a modern day MGB. The Lotus, especially the Elan, was a cut above.
Quote from: Laconian on December 06, 2020, 03:16:54 PM
I'm starting to lose some hair in the back of my head, so... fixed roofs are fine, thanks :lol:
Just wait until it's all gone. You'll want a convertible again!
Quote from: MrH on December 07, 2020, 07:35:51 AM
Just wait until it's all gone. You'll want a convertible again!
The wind can't mess up your hair if you don't have any!
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 05, 2020, 09:14:41 AM
Discovery uses a knob to switch gears. Wouldn't want to get them confused.
It needs a shifter
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2020, 10:25:35 AM
It needs a shifter
Being old and less inclined to change, I thought I'd be adverse to having a shift knob rather than a shift lever. However, it makes the console area much cleaner and less cluttered looking.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h41zJvJ2/5a02edc07276533327e65f2f-large.jpg)
As soon as you push the start button, the little knob raises up.
I just like the way it looks.
I think I prefer the Bolt electronic shifter, which is similar to BMW's. Keeps me from confusing it with the other round knobs.
You couldn't have a kid in the passenger seat with one of those knobs. Your transmission would be FUBAR in no time from shifting into reverse while at speed.
Quote from: Laconian on December 07, 2020, 12:02:08 PM
You couldn't have a kid in the passenger seat with one of those knobs. Your transmission would be FUBAR in no time from shifting into reverse while at speed.
You can't have a kid in the front passenger seat until they are 36 years old and 220lbs anyway.
Quote from: Lebowski on December 07, 2020, 12:07:32 PM
You can't have a kid in the front passenger seat until they are 36 years old and 220lbs anyway.
:lol:
Quote from: Laconian on December 07, 2020, 12:02:08 PM
You couldn't have a kid in the passenger seat with one of those knobs. Your transmission would be FUBAR in no time from shifting into reverse while at speed.
Maybe. It's bad enough with my wife in the passenger seat. The lever looking device just behind the shift knob, far right in the image, activates/deactivates the electric emergency brake. My wife thought it was to open a storage compartment underneath and tried to "open it" when we were driving. It works very effectively.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2020, 02:36:03 PM
Maybe. It's bad enough with my wife in the passenger seat. The lever looking device just behind the shift knob, far right in the image, activates/deactivates the electric emergency brake. My wife thought it was to open a storage compartment underneath and tried to "open it" when we were driving. It works very effectively.
:lol:!
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2020, 02:36:03 PM
Maybe. It's bad enough with my wife in the passenger seat. The lever looking device just behind the shift knob, far right in the image, activates/deactivates the electric emergency brake. My wife thought it was to open a storage compartment underneath and tried to "open it" when we were driving. It works very effectively.
I've seen lots of those where the e-parking-brake switch is by the passenger like the window switches in my Miata! What horrible design!
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 07, 2020, 04:35:39 PM
I've seen lots of those where the e-parking-brake switch is by the passenger like the window switches in my Miata! What horrible design!
Yeah that design is terrible. It looks like a lever to open the storage cubby between the seats.
Quote from: veeman on December 07, 2020, 05:07:25 PM
Yeah that design is terrible. It looks like a lever to open the storage cubby between the seats.
It does have the little (P) symbol on it. Some people don't notice it I guess.
I've been approved by my bank for a 2.89% APR. This is 40 bps higher that the loan we took out from them in January 2018 on the Honda. This is odd, given that my credit rating is as high as you can get, and interest rates are supposedly lower than they were two years ago.
I think Mazda is currently offering 0.9% APR for up to 5 years financing on all 2021 models.
Quote from: veeman on December 07, 2020, 09:39:59 PM
I think Mazda is currently offering 0.9% APR for up to 5 years financing on all 2021 models.
Thanks, they are, will take a laptop along: I've made a spreadsheet to run scenarios: amortization, trade-in, taxes etc.
Spreadsheets help me keep a clear head. I love numbers.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 08, 2020, 06:17:16 AM
Thanks, they are, will take a laptop along: I've made a spreadsheet to run scenarios: amortization, trade-in, taxes etc.
Spreadsheets help me keep a clear head. I love numbers.
A customer who takes out a laptop while trying to buy a car at a dealership is probably a good sign to the salesperson to just offer a good deal from the get-go :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 08, 2020, 06:17:16 AM
Thanks, they are, will take a laptop along: I've made a spreadsheet to run scenarios: amortization, trade-in, taxes etc.
Spreadsheets help me keep a clear head. I love numbers.
You're no match for the Four Square. The salesman's going to make you his bitch.
RIP Morris and his laptop. He never stood a chance against the Four Boxes.
"Hey guys, look at my low, low monthly payment"
"How long is the loan for?"
"NINETY YEARS"
Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 10:17:43 AM
"Hey guys, look at my low, low monthly payment"
"How long is the loan for?"
"NINETY YEARS"
:lol:
I learned yesterday that they do 240 month loans on RVs. At 5+% APR! :confused:
Quote from: Speed_Racer on December 08, 2020, 11:52:00 AM
I learned yesterday that they do 240 month loans on RVs. At 5+% APR! :confused:
I browse them a lot, you can buy the big bus styles which are more expensive than my house.
Really the vast majority of RVs, jet skis, boats, motorcycles, quads, etc... are toy purchases and make zero financial sense.
But what are finances for but to have fun? (without losing the necessities of life because of bankruptcy)
Quote from: Laconian on December 08, 2020, 10:10:36 AM
You're no match for the Four Square. The salesman's going to make you his bitch.
https://youtu.be/B2LLB9CGfLs
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 09, 2020, 09:03:39 AM
https://youtu.be/B2LLB9CGfLs
Oh man...that is so good :cry:
I was expecting a line like "oh, my boss isn't happy with me, but..."
Still great.
Quote from: Speed_Racer on December 08, 2020, 11:52:00 AM
I learned yesterday that they do 240 month loans on RVs. At 5+% APR! :confused:
But RV prices have shot throught the roof since Covid. Now is not the time to buy.
CX-5 AWD Grand Touring Reserve that comes with the turbo 2.5. And I like the cooled seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK8qHZsC/IMG-1922.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 09, 2020, 04:29:38 PM
CX-5 AWD Grand Touring Reserve that comes with the turbo 2.5. And I like the cooled seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK8qHZsC/IMG-1922.jpg)
Very sharp. Love their red. The 2.5 turbo must have a lot of grunt.
Did you get the TruCoat?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 09, 2020, 04:36:48 PM
Did you get the TruCoat?
It sure looks like it! :lol:
:cheers:
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 09, 2020, 04:29:38 PM
CX-5 AWD Grand Touring Reserve that comes with the turbo 2.5. And I like the cooled seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK8qHZsC/IMG-1922.jpg)
Question of the day...Is it a seagull? ;)
:rockon:
Initial thoughts:
It's very peppy with instantaneous throttle response - so different from waiting for the Honda 1.5T to come on boost, and then the CVT to wind up.
It feels very planted - solid handling.
Interior quality is super.
It's very red. Matches my iPhone.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 09, 2020, 04:29:38 PM
CX-5 AWD Grand Touring Reserve that comes with the turbo 2.5. And I like the cooled seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK8qHZsC/IMG-1922.jpg)
You has???
Superb choice!
I love the Soul Red!
Quote from: shp4man on December 09, 2020, 05:36:53 PM
Question of the day...Is it a seagull? ;)
It's a big "M", I think
That color is so sweet! Love it!
Too late for Stelvio?
Quote from: Laconian on December 09, 2020, 08:38:06 PM
Superb choice!
Thanks, have not driven it much yet, but I'd characterize it as "willing to play," a totally different feel from the CR-V, digs into curves & corners, tons of torque. It does not hesitate to drop a ratio when needed, and in Sport mode even more so. Interior quality is great & the infotainment via the jog wheel & buttons is so much better than the goofy touchscreen.
Excellent choice, those are really great vehicles especially when all decked out!
I'm wondering if the 2.5 turbo engine is based on the 2.5 NA engine that's been around for awhile. The 2009 Escape that my wife had, and now our daughter uses, has the Mazda 2.5 NA engine and it has run faultlessly for over 250,000 kilometers (155k miles). We've always been diligent about maintenance items and its always been a bit noisy (valve lash) but really, really dependable. Decent mileage as well.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 11, 2020, 12:18:29 PM
I'm wondering if the 2.5 turbo engine is based on the 2.5 NA engine that's been around for awhile. The 2009 Escape that my wife had, and now our daughter uses, has the Mazda 2.5 NA engine and it has run faultlessly for over 250,000 kilometers (155k miles). We've always been diligent about maintenance items and its always been a bit noisy (valve lash) but really, really dependable. Decent mileage as well.
Nope. That was the MZR family. They're all Skyactiv based now.
Posted on a CR-V forum site,
----
We bought a 2018 AWD Touring just under three years ago. It was a nice vehicle - lots of space and a brilliantly well thought-out interior. But we had several problems that made it non-viable as a long term hold:
- Laggy infotainment system
- Oil dilution (garage smelled of gasoline)
- Sluggish throttle response from the CVT/turbo combo
- Weak air conditioning
- Engine unable to warm itself while delivering cabin heart
- Random cascading error messages that the dealer could never explain.
I know Honda extended the drivetrain warranty, and I'm sure the new ones have most of this sorted. But the vehicle, that we'd planned as a 10-year keeper, did not work out for us. A big contrast to the family's 2003 Pilot, that my son still runs, and has clocked over 200,000 miles.
We decided to trade the CR-V in at 32,000 miles, for a new 2021 Mazda CX-5.
---
Honda likely lost a lot of credibility over this 1.5T? engine. Trying too hard and took it to the thin edge.
If it didn't have problems, it would have been a pretty sweet motor.
Quote from: Laconian on December 14, 2020, 10:57:48 AM
If it didn't have problems, it would have been a pretty sweet motor.
Seems the problem is lingering still...
Did Honda Fix Their Turbo Engine Problems 2019? – Here's What You Need To Know (https://www.cashcarsbuyer.com/did-honda-fix-their-turbo-engine-problems-2019/)
They should've just scrapped that engine design and started over.
Quote from: Laconian on December 14, 2020, 10:57:48 AM
If it didn't have problems, it would have been a pretty sweet motor.
:lol:
Earth Dreams. They dreamt not of reliable transportation, but of the Earth mother. Turned out to be a Mutha of a vehicle. :muffin:
Quote from: shp4man on December 14, 2020, 11:36:09 AM
Earth Dreams. They dreamt not of reliable transportation, but of the Earth mother. Turned out to be a Mutha of a vehicle. :muffin:
They dreamed of beating the competition with a state-of-the-art engine that turned out to be highly flawed and they're too embarrassed to admit it. It happens to the best of manufacturers sooner or later. Sort of like Honda's more recent F1 attempts.
I LOVE the CX-5. It's the car I should have bought three years ago. Will put my impressions up in a new thread when I get a chance. It's so responsive... kind of difficult to articulate... but it's like it wants to play.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 14, 2020, 12:25:44 PM
I LOVE the CX-5. It's the car I should have bought three years ago. Will put my impressions up in a new thread when I get a chance. It's so responsive... kind of difficult to articulate... but it's like it wants to play.
A car you love deserves a thread!
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 14, 2020, 12:25:44 PM
I LOVE the CX-5. It's the car I should have bought three years ago. Will put my impressions up in a new thread when I get a chance. It's so responsive... kind of difficult to articulate... but it's like it wants to play.
It's like it's plugged into the brain, Avatar style.