http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=28355.0 (http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=28355.0)
My Fiat!
It needs some stuff badly, and a lot of stuff slightly. :lol:
I need to install a working alternator, replace a gasket for the thermostat, clean it really good, and then I can start the long list of other stuff. Today I got some retarded wiring un-retarded, pulled the t-stat cover off to get at the gasket, acquainted myself with the engine, figured out which Weber carb I have (35/36 DFAV), got all the parts out of the trunk, and went and got a much better heater for the garage.
Other highlights for the future include a new center console, 3-point seat belts (yay for the roll bar!), gloss-black hood, fixing the wobbly seats, and possibly installing the head from the 1600 engine I have (higher compression because pre-emissions).
Sounds like a reasonably minor list, I look forward to actually hearing about progress being made.
Yeah, once it's drivable, I'll rest a lot easier. :lol: I can probably make pretty steady progress, so long as I know WTF I'm doing.
Believe it or not, I found ChrisV's old page about his Fiat Spider. I hesitate to call it inspiring, but... :lol:
If you want a real Accent, I can get you one.
Quote from: Rupert on November 12, 2012, 09:33:32 PM
Yeah, once it's drivable, I'll rest a lot easier. :lol: I can probably make pretty steady progress, so long as I know WTF I'm doing.
Believe it or not, I found ChrisV's old page about his Fiat Spider. I hesitate to call it inspiring, but... :lol:
Actually, I should have a book about weber carbs around here somewhere... but where?
If I have a book on 'em, then I'll feel compelled to do something dumb like rebuild and install the dual IDFs I got with the car.
Bad idea! :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on November 13, 2012, 12:17:54 AM
If I have a book on 'em, then I'll feel compelled to do something dumb like rebuild and install the dual IDFs I got with the car.
Bad idea! :lol:
My friend, this entire undertaking is an inflammation of the badidea oblongatus.
No, this is a great idea!
Ha!
Well, I'd at least like to enjoy it some before I render the whole thing undrivable because I "modified" it.
Will a Ford 302 fit?
Quote from: Rockraven on November 13, 2012, 06:28:19 AM
Will a Ford 302 fit?
Not really. The Fiat has a really short engine compartment and the stock 4 cyl barely fits. I saw one with one one time and the firewall was hacked to hell to get the engine to fit far enough back to clear the radiator.
The 2 liter is a great engine and should be perfect for being a fun car. And it has a great soundtrack with the right exhaust.
Do you need spare parts from Europe? There are countless Fiat clubs and fan communities here that know where to get the goodies for this car. Shouldn't be to hard since this car shared many parts with other Fiats from the era.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 13, 2012, 01:58:09 PM
Not really. The Fiat has a really short engine compartment and the stock 4 cyl barely fits. I saw one with one one time and the firewall was hacked to hell to get the engine to fit far enough back to clear the radiator.
The 2 liter is a great engine and should be perfect for being a fun car. And it has a great soundtrack with the right exhaust.
No way I'm putting an American V8 into an Italian car, anyway (unless it DeTomaso on the back)!
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 13, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
Do you need spare parts from Europe? There are countless Fiat clubs and fan communities here that know where to get the goodies for this car. Shouldn't be to hard since this car shared many parts with other Fiats from the era.
Well, I have half a car in my garage that came with the whole car... But I'll keep it in mind!
What color seat belts should I get? http://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/CH300.html (http://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/CH300.html)
It's only got two-point belts in there. Black is the most likely to succeed looks-wise (black interior), but why not, right?
Also, the hood latch is marginal. Best way to keep a hood closed without trying to find a new latch?
Quote from: Rupert on November 13, 2012, 07:38:38 PM
What color seat belts should I get? http://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/CH300.html (http://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/CH300.html)
It's only got two-point belts in there. Black is the most likely to succeed looks-wise (black interior), but why not, right?
Also, the hood latch is marginal. Best way to keep a hood closed without trying to find a new latch?
If Powder matched the exterior color exactly, that would be cool.
... and duct tape!
Quote from: Rupert on November 13, 2012, 07:35:43 PM
Well, I have half a car in my garage that came with the whole car... But I'll keep it in mind!
Just contact these guys.
https://www.fiatspider.de/en/ (English language available)
http://www.fiat-spider.de/ (German only)
Quote from: HotRodPilot on November 14, 2012, 12:26:10 AM
If Powder matched the exterior color exactly, that would be cool.
... and duct tape!
It's pretty close, but I went with black, anyway. :lol:
Since the hood latch is only $25, I did that, too. :P
I have to ask. Any chance you're going to buy a classic 1974 Dodge Monaco a a project car sometime? :praise: :cheers:
I'm really wondering if this would even be funny in Germany or not. Mike?
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 15, 2012, 09:42:09 AM
I'm really wondering if this would even be funny in Germany or not. Mike?
At a classic car show here, even '70s American landyachts create buzz with their size and style. At one of the last shows I went to there was an early '70s Ford Country Squire wagon - people were crowding around it like crazy checking it out. Put yourself into my position for once. I only saw these things on the movie screen - and they look cool!!! :mrcool:
Rupert, congratulations on your new project. Or wallet lightener. Whatever. :lol:
No, seriously, if it's in relatively good condition, it should be a kick in the ass. That whole thing with the alternator "flashing" (WTF?) doesn't sound real good, though. Hope you have a wiring diagram somewhere. ;)
:lol:
Yeah, I have what looks like a good wiring diagram, and the factory workshop manual on the way. I kind of think the PO did something dumb, like didn't disconnect the battery. I'm gonna hook it up and see what happens, I guess.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 15, 2012, 04:31:41 AM
I have to ask. Any chance you're going to buy a classic 1974 Dodge Monaco a a project car sometime? :praise: :cheers:
Goddammit Wimmer, you know we don't think that's funny, so why are you bringing those ridiculous landyachts into my Fiat thread?
Quote from: Rupert on November 15, 2012, 08:00:41 PM
Goddammit Wimmer, you know we don't think that's funny, so why are you bringing those ridiculous landyachts into my Fiat thread?
Sorry! :cheers:
You know how much I love those things! :praise:
No more '74 Dodge Monaco talk in this thread, I promise!
Back in my old Fiat X-1/9 days, these guys were a lifesaver when it came to finding parts....
http://www.midwest-bayless.com/storefrontprofiles/default.aspx?sfid=208227
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 16, 2012, 05:27:41 AM
Sorry! :cheers:
You know how much I love those things! :praise:
No more '74 Dodge Monaco talk in this thread, I promise!
:cheers:
Quote from: Madman on November 16, 2012, 08:01:19 AM
Back in my old Fiat X-1/9 days, these guys were a lifesaver when it came to finding parts....
http://www.midwest-bayless.com/storefrontprofiles/default.aspx?sfid=208227
Cool. I also found Vick's, Auto Ricambi, International Auto, and a couple of weird sites designed 15 years ago but with good stuff.
I used Bruce's Parts Bin with great success (got parts shipped next day for no extra charge). http://www.fiatparts.com/
FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Balls to all this. I found that the floor pans are catastrophically rusted under the seat rails, and the seats are barely held down by a few spots of good metal. :( :( :cry:
Not sure what to do at this point. Either replace the floor pans before it's safe to drive, or sell it. I would end up paying $$$ to have a shop do the welding, and I can't weld sheet metal. :(
Oh shit! Is that the cause of the wobbly seats? :mask:
Quote from: thecarnut on November 18, 2012, 09:34:43 PM
Oh shit! Is that the cause of the wobbly seats? :mask:
In part. They're also half-broken seats. I was gonna live with that for a while, but this is pretty bad. I'm temped to get the alternator in there, title and register it, drive it for a week, and then sell it. Or wait until the spring. *sigh* Laaaaaame!
Welding is easy.
Says you!
I guess it doesn't need to be pretty, eh? I have a buddy with a MIG...
The car just needs too much to make this worth it to me. If I fix the floor, then I'll have to fix the body rust, and repaint the whole thing, and fix every other little stupid thing, and I don't want that much of a project. I was just going to drive it around for a while, fixing the little things as I feel like it.
Alternator, sell, 944 suspension, own an Italian car later.
Major inspection fail. Beta move.
Quote from: Rupert on November 18, 2012, 09:58:52 PM
Says you!
I guess it doesn't need to be pretty, eh? I have a buddy with a MIG...
If you can find replacement floorboards and fit them in for not much dough: neither the welds nor the paint on them have to be pretty.
Or...
You have a pile of parts: Ebay them, then sell the car and walk away. Your call.
Aye. Floorboards are $500, and the work would be much. I dunno; I might get it driving, and then drive it for a little bit as is. If I like the car enough after that, then I'll do the floors.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 18, 2012, 10:32:07 PM
Major inspection fail. Beta move.
So beta.
On the other hand this fits the philosophy of the more breaking up you do, the more success you have. :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on November 18, 2012, 09:28:43 PM
FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Balls to all this. I found that the floor pans are catastrophically rusted under the seat rails, and the seats are barely held down by a few spots of good metal. :( :( :cry:
Not sure what to do at this point. Either replace the floor pans before it's safe to drive, or sell it. I would end up paying $$$ to have a shop do the welding, and I can't weld sheet metal. :(
No floors? No problem. Plywood is your friend!
Floorboards aren't bad at all.
Quote from: Madman on November 19, 2012, 12:22:33 AM
No floors? No problem. Plywood is your friend!
It's the seat mounts that are the problem. If there was just a hole in the floor, I wouldn't even care. :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 12:27:46 AM
It's the seat mounts that are the problem. If there was just a hole in the floor, I wouldn't even care. :lol:
In that case, they make these things called wood screws...
but no, don't do that.
If you can cut out the old floors and get the new ones fitted in place, you can probably have them welded for about $100.
Sort of feel like once I had all that work done, I might as well finish it. What do you think for labor for the whole job? I have no experience paying for welding and body work.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 12:36:32 AM
Sort of feel like once I had all that work done, I might as well finish it. What do you think for labor for the whole job? I have no experience paying for welding and body work.
Well, that's the problem with all project cars, isn't it? To do the whole thing from start to finish? Might be $500 if you get lucky.
Look at how cooooool it looks Boopert. Think of how it brooms. That is worth another $500. Listen to the voices of money entering other people's pockets.
Buy me a plane ticket and I will come out there with my reciprocating saw and flux core welder.
Do not let Nick turn Fight 12Fo into an Italian Slownoma.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 19, 2012, 01:26:38 AM
Look at how cooooool it looks Boopert. Think of how it brooms. That is worth another $500. Listen to the voices of money entering other people's pockets.
Come on gooby, you killingb be.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 19, 2012, 01:29:59 AM
Buy me a plane ticket and I will come out there with my reciprocating saw and flux core welder.
Cheaper to have a shop do it. :lol:
Get a delivery out here, and bring your shit. You can stay in my spare room, and I'll have the interior stripped already!
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 19, 2012, 01:31:35 AM
Do not let Nick turn Fight 12Fo into an Italian Slownoma.
I think under the Slownoma and flamez, Nick might know what he's doing. More than me!
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 01:39:36 AM
Cheaper to have a shop do it. :lol:
Get a delivery out here, and bring your shit. You can stay in my spare room, and I'll have the interior stripped already!
I wood, but I am east coast, mang. Also, about to quit this jerb 4 srs. Just need to get a local one.
And you should know that I can't weld sheet metal with a flux core.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 19, 2012, 12:40:30 AM
Well, that's the problem with all project cars, isn't it? To do the whole thing from start to finish? Might be $500 if you get lucky.
Indeed. I can usually restrain myself, or at least keep the rate of tearin' shit apart reasonable, but if I already have to pull most of the interior, I might as well pull the rest and refurbish it, and if I'm already fixing rust, I might as well fix it all, and if I'm fixing it all, then I might as well paint the whole car, and then it's next fall and I've only driven it 30 miles, and then it snows, and then I move and sell it anyway... So you see the dilemma.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 19, 2012, 01:44:58 AM
I wood, but I am east coast, mang. Also, about to quit this jerb 4 srs. Just need to get a local one.
And you should know that I can't weld sheet metal with a flux core.
And this is why I don't want to do this!
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 01:46:34 AM
And this is why I don't want to do this!
pop rivets are super easy
Yikes, no.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 01:48:51 AM
Yikes, no.
If you have enough of a flang and room for the tool to work, you can use flush pop rivets that wil actually look good- you offset the sheet metal you're putting in, dimple the holes and use a structural adhesive.
But: its not considered a structural strength joint; and I'd want that in floorboards.
Cutting the old out and fitting the new boards in and then letting a real welder do the welding would be your best option- IF you decide to fix this.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 01:45:54 AM
Indeed. I can usually restrain myself, or at least keep the rate of tearin' shit apart reasonable, but if I already have to pull most of the interior, I might as well pull the rest and refurbish it, and if I'm already fixing rust, I might as well fix it all, and if I'm fixing it all, then I might as well paint the whole car, and then it's next fall and I've only driven it 30 miles, and then it snows, and then I move and sell it anyway... So you see the dilemma.
Sounds like my El Camino.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 01:45:54 AM
Indeed. I can usually restrain myself, or at least keep the rate of tearin' shit apart reasonable, but if I already have to pull most of the interior, I might as well pull the rest and refurbish it, and if I'm already fixing rust, I might as well fix it all, and if I'm fixing it all, then I might as well paint the whole car, and then it's next fall and I've only driven it 30 miles, and then it snows, and then I move and sell it anyway... So you see the dilemma.
Dude, I've been there more than once already. Heck, I'm there right now (except for the moving part)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 19, 2012, 01:53:11 AM
Dude, I've been there more than once already. Heck, I'm there right now (except for the moving part)
Yeah... There's no certainty in moving, but I won't be here forever, and I don't want a project car and a garage full of parts when I leave.
I dunno; I think it's drive it and see time. I might decide I don't like driving it, anyway. :lol:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 19, 2012, 01:51:59 AM
If you have enough of a flang and room for the tool to work, you can use flush pop rivets that wil actually look good- you offset the sheet metal you're putting in, dimple the holes and use a structural adhesive.
But: its not considered a structural strength joint; and I'd want that in floorboards.
Cutting the old out and fitting the new boards in and then letting a real welder do the welding would be your best option- IF you decide to fix this.
Yeah, most likely. I'll have to get a Haynes book or something on how to fit them.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 19, 2012, 01:52:52 AM
Sounds like my El Camino.
And that went smoothly, right?
:lol:
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 02:02:06 AM
Yeah... There's no certainty in moving, but I won't be here forever, and I don't want a project car and a garage full of parts when I leave.
I dunno; I think it's drive it and see time. I might decide I don't like driving it, anyway. :lol:
This type of dilemma is exactly what I want to avoid in life. I am setting myself up with enough job skills so, once I buy a house, I will never have to move from it. I want to get a place between Columbia and Charlotte, or Columbia and Spartanburg, or Columbia and Augusta, or Columbia and Charleston, giving myself two cities about an hour away to make sure I can always has jerb. Anyway, my garage will never have to get cleaned out. I will have forever project cars.
You can do floorboards without doing any of the rest of the car. No need to try and make it more of a project than you absolutely have to. The whole "as long as" mentality needs to stop (I'm guilty of it at times, too).
Hell, on mine, I got it into primer and drive it that way for a year. Just do the flooboards, bolt the seats back in and drive it.
Check with Bruce at Bruce's Parts Bin 856-582-7770 on good used floor pan sections. Personally, I'd use this as an excuse to fit Miata seats in it. ;)
Now that you already have it I don't see why you should sell it.
Don't half ass the floor boards but do a good job on it and then drive it around. I don't see why you'd have to fix all the bodywork issues if you're going to fix the floorboards.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 02:03:03 AM
Yeah, most likely. I'll have to get a Haynes book or something on how to fit them.
If you want to get a book, one on general bodywork skills wil help you out more. The Haynes manual will probably go something like 'remove interior; remove floorboards, weld ne floorboards back in.
The biggest thing about fitting floorboards is that you don't tweak the whole car when doing so; pay attenion to your door gaps when fitting theing together.
Yeah, I meant like a Haynes bodywork manual. Actually, I might already have one...
The bad news is that I don't think I can get floor pans with the seat mounting brackets already on, and they don't make the seat mounting brackets anymore.
The good news is that my buddy with a welder also has a more skilled brother, and it sounds like I could get some help from the both of them.
Hopefully, I can get the alternator in and working tomorrow, so then I can drive it around for a little while. Floor pans would be a good project for all the time I have off in December.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 19, 2012, 12:36:03 PM
Check with Bruce at Bruce's Parts Bin 856-582-7770 on good used floor pan sections. Personally, I'd use this as an excuse to fit Miata seats in it. ;)
Good advice on the used floor pans. Probably way cheaper.
I'm thinking about the Miata seats. Chances of getting good local Miata seats are slim, though, and shipping's a bitch. If I have to end up fabricating mounts for the seats, though, I'll try to leave some room for furture Miata seats. The seats in there are a bit busted, anyway.
I did get the coolant leak fixed yesterday (hopefully-- haven't run the car yet to test), and all else it needs to drive is the alternator.
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 07:53:24 PM
Good advice on the used floor pans. Probably way cheaper.
I'm thinking about the Miata seats. Chances of getting good local Miata seats are slim, though, and shipping's a bitch. If I have to end up fabricating mounts for the seats, though, I'll try to leave some room for furture Miata seats. The seats in there are a bit busted, anyway.
I did get the coolant leak fixed yesterday (hopefully-- haven't run the car yet to test), and all else it needs to drive is the alternator.
I don't know. Seems to me a lot of Spec-Miata racing guys probably swap out their seats first thing.
Yeah, for sure, but I live in Boise, where I would be surprised to find even a single Spec Miata racer, and I'm five hours from the next nearest city.
What are the seat mounting brackets? The things attached to the bottom of the seat or are they a part of the floor?
Quote from: Rupert on November 19, 2012, 08:20:11 PM
Yeah, for sure, but I live in Boise, where I would be surprised to find even a single Spec Miata racer, and I'm five hours from the next nearest city.
If you find some online, you can have them shipped by greyhound to Boise pretty cheaply and easily (you'd have to pick tehm up at the bus terminal, but that's not hard). I've done it a few times.
I should go take a look at the local salvage yards. Seats are only $40 each and they often have Miatas in there.
That's a good idea. If you find some good seats (no tears, etc.) for that cheap, I'd be all over it, even with a higher shipping cost. That's cheap! eBay was looking like $300 for both.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 20, 2012, 02:58:03 AM
What are the seat mounting brackets? The things attached to the bottom of the seat or are they a part of the floor?
Part of the floor. I haven't looked super closely, but it looks like basically square tubing welded to the floor, and the seats mount to that.
The good part about having to fabricate new brackets (basically just finding and cutting the right square tubing?) is that I could make them for Miata seats, and I could see if I could customize them for extra leg room.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 20, 2012, 02:58:03 AM
What are the seat mounting brackets? The things attached to the bottom of the seat or are they a part of the floor?
This is what the Fiat floor looks like where the seats mount:
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats04.jpg)
To fabricate mounts for the Miata seats, you only have to make a plate like this:
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats12.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats14.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats17.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats24.jpg)
And from what I gather, the square tube-ish parts can't be found new anymore. Used would be a lot easier.
Wait wait... so the things the seats mount to are raised above the actual floor pans? Is it jsut the seat mount metal that's rusted through or is the actual main pan rusted too? If it's just the raised areas for the seats that's way easier to fix than the actual whole pan being rotted through.
Oh, it's everything. Where the mount is welded to the pan is rusted away in parts. There are also holes in the pans under the seats.
If you want to go real ghetto fix, why not just cut out the rusty parts and weld in repair plates. Unless there's like a foot plus of rust in any direction it'd be serviceable, I'd think.
That's not out of the question, but it probably isn't too much more work to do it right. I'll probably decide when/if I get it all apart to look at it in detail.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 20, 2012, 04:12:54 PM
This is what the Fiat floor looks like where the seats mount:
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats04.jpg)
To fabricate mounts for the Miata seats, you only have to make a plate like this:
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats12.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats14.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats17.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/seats24.jpg)
Impressive "how to" pics. :ohyeah:
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 21, 2012, 11:10:18 AM
If you want to go real ghetto fix, why not just cut out the rusty parts and weld in repair plates. Unless there's like a foot plus of rust in any direction it'd be serviceable, I'd think.
Your ghettoism needs work.
A Real ghetto fix would be to cut the stop sign at the end of the street into the proper shape and then use caulk and sheet metal screws.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 21, 2012, 04:34:13 PM
Your ghettoism needs work.
A Real ghetto fix would be to cut the stop sign at the end of the street into the proper shape and then use caulk and sheet metal screws.
:clap:
And I thought I was being ghetto with my plywood suggestion. Stolen stop sign, screws and caulk? Now
THAT'S ghetto! :lol:
:lol:
Alright, new problem. I put the alternator in with much struggle (fucking bolts too long to clear the radiator...), but the spinny part where the belt goes on is 1 cm to far back from the rest of the spinny belt things (goddammit, I know the name for those, really I do). I can't figure out how and/or if there's supposed to be an adjustment, but the mount can only mount in one place, and the alternator can only mount to the mount in one way. It's supposed to be the correct alternator. Any ideas?
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2562/downsized1121121720.jpg)
Pulley? And your picture isn't showing up.
Is the crankshaft pulley in the right spot?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 21, 2012, 04:34:13 PM
Your ghettoism needs work.
A Real ghetto fix would be to cut the stop sign at the end of the street into the proper shape and then use caulk and sheet metal screws.
My car had a couple of beer cans tacked to the floor.
Quote from: Rupert on November 21, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
:lol:
Alright, new problem. I put the alternator in with much struggle (fucking bolts too long to clear the radiator...), but the spinny part where the belt goes on is 1 cm to far back from the rest of the spinny belt things (goddammit, I know the name for those, really I do). I can't figure out how and/or if there's supposed to be an adjustment, but the mount can only mount in one place, and the alternator can only mount to the mount in one way. It's supposed to be the correct alternator. Any ideas?
(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=bf51c1b09d&view=att&th=13b257da69bd09b4&attid=0.0&disp=inline&safe=1&zw)
I can't see the pic, but its not uncommon for the alernator to need to be shimmed one way or another, and sometimes it is possible to adjust the pulleyin or out along the shaft.
I can't see a way the alternator could ever move from its current front-back position, and it seems like the pulley (yes, pulley) doesn't have enough room on its shaft to come out the centimeter it needs to.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 22, 2012, 12:56:03 AM
Pulley? And your picture isn't showing up.
Is the crankshaft pulley in the right spot?
My car had a couple of beer cans tacked to the floor.
Yes! Christ, brains are weird.
The crankshaft pulley is in line with the water pump pulley. It does have a further forward position, and it looks like it has a further back position too, but the timing marks get in the way.
Also, I think I fixed the image...
I would just put a couple of shims or spacers between the alternator or bracket. Then, in a few months you'll probably figure out how to actually fix it. :lol:
Duud, just get longer bolts for the alternator mounts and get soem washers or nuts to space it out.
If I could, I would.
The alternator has two mounting points. The top mounts to a bracket with a slot in it to allow for adjusting the belt tension. The bottom mount has a tab on the front and on the back, and the tabs hug a pivot mount. Since the alternator tabs hug the mount, there's no way to move it back of forth. The mounts themselves don't seem to be able to adjust, either.
Quote from: Rupert on November 22, 2012, 08:06:28 PM
If I could, I would.
The alternator has two mounting points. The top mounts to a bracket with a slot in it to allow for adjusting the belt tension. The bottom mount has a tab on the front and on the back, and the tabs hug a pivot mount. Since the alternator tabs hug the mount, there's no way to move it back of forth. The mounts themselves don't seem to be able to adjust, either.
Grind the shit down.
Apparently, the alternator is supposed to be on the other side with this engine. Not sure how it ever worked on the passenger side, but that's where the wiring is. I believe the PO was pretty D, as it turns out. I know he lied to me about the floor pans.
I guess I'd better figure out how to mount the thing on the driver side...
Where's the old alternator? Did it have good pulley alignment? Or a double groove pulley?
Old alternator is gone.
Er, maybe not... There is a huge pile of parts in my garage, so it's probably in there.
Another suggestion from the Fiat forum was to take the water pump pulley from the other engine. The crankshaft pulley is a triple, and has a smaller pulley aligned right.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 15, 2012, 09:42:09 AM
I'm really wondering if this would even be funny in Germany or not. Mike?
Nein. :lol:
I have old alternators, but pulley distances are the same. I can't mount it on the intake side of the engine (not where the wiring is) without a huge ordeal. I could modify the bracket on the exhaust side to move it forward, but that's kind of sketchy. I don't want to use the other water pump pulley on the water pump in the engine, because then I have to get a shorter belt and the water pump and alternator would turn more slowly (crank pulley in that position is smaller).
I think I may be able to weld a pulley from one of the other water pumps to the one I have. I need to measure it and then get the rusty nut off the old alternator to get the pulley off. I think this is the best solution, and it gives me time to order some new coolant hoses and a new thermostat (might as well with the coolant out).
Better solution would be to just buy a pulley that fit right in the first place.
Alright, I think I know what to do. I can cut out the part of one of the pulleys that mounts to the alternator and weld it to the back of the other pulley. That will scoot it forward just about the perfect amount. (Er, I can have someone else do this for me...). The water pump pulley I have would move the water pump too far back, anyway. I sure hope the alternator is good, dammit.
Quite the effort to get the other pulley off the alternator. Pretty much took the thing apart from the back so I could find a way to jam something in there to keep the shaft from turning, then clamped the thing to the bench, then ended up cutting a slot in the nut part way, soaking everything with PB, squeezing the nut with vise grips to try to flex it around the slot, and then, after bending my nice new punch ( :facepalm: ), finally the thing moved.
I also figured out what's up with most of the hanging wires-- two are for the radiator fan temp sender, and two are for the oil pressure gauge and light.
I think I can get this done next weekend.
I smell like PB Blaster.
PB Blaster has done more to get weird smells on my tools and catch-a-drip cardboard than actually loosen anything.
It's good for l00bing threads behind a nut.
Your capacity for automotive torture is quite impressive.
:lol:
When you have another fun car already, it's easier to chill out about dumb shit like this alternator.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 25, 2012, 08:37:10 PM
PB Blaster has done more to get weird smells on my tools and catch-a-drip cardboard than actually loosen anything.
It seems to function about like the other smelly stuff I've tried. Liquid Wrench is just OK, WD40 is the same...
Quote from: Rupert on November 21, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
:lol:
Alright, new problem. I put the alternator in with much struggle (fucking bolts too long to clear the radiator...), but the spinny part where the belt goes on is 1 cm to far back from the rest of the spinny belt things (goddammit, I know the name for those, really I do). I can't figure out how and/or if there's supposed to be an adjustment, but the mount can only mount in one place, and the alternator can only mount to the mount in one way. It's supposed to be the correct alternator. Any ideas?
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2562/downsized1121121720.jpg)
yeah, that's definitely on the wrong side. Here's where it's supposed to mount on that engine:
(http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/fiatrad1.jpg)
I guess jury-rigging it in place is a fine idea, but I'd hate to have it mount under the exhaust header.
My guess is at some point, dude yanked the smog pump and put that alternator there. Or, that's a California car or something. I don't really know shite about Fiats.
Alternator pulleys are best removed with a 1/2 drive impact wrench. And also put back on. ;)
This fits a GM alternator:
(http://static.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/59/91015437_R_15d8091d.jpg)
Quote from: shp4man on November 26, 2012, 11:33:06 AM
My guess is at some point, dude yanked the smog pump and put that alternator there. Or, that's a California car or something.[/img]
Well, if it's a 2 liter, it's from a smogged car, but the car itself is a '72. What he needs is the alternator and brackets for the 2 liter. Without that, then fabbing the '72's alternator to the location it's in will have to do.
I'm not even sure which engine the alternator is for. Mounting it on the correct driver's side would require moving a bunch of stuff around, and even then, I'm not sure it would fit because of the radiator fan. I also didn't see the bracket I'd need in a cursory check of the parts websites.
I'm not too worried about the headers being there. There's a bunch of room, and the early engines mounted the thing there, anyway. My main concern is that this alternator will be bad, in which case I'd probably want to replace it with an upgraded unit, in which case, who knows if the pulley I'll have made will fit. :P
Quote from: shp4man on November 26, 2012, 11:33:06 AM
My guess is at some point, dude yanked the smog pump and put that alternator there. Or, that's a California car or something. I don't really know shite about Fiats.
Alternator pulleys are best removed with a 1/2 drive impact wrench. And also put back on. ;)
This fits a GM alternator:
(http://static.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/59/91015437_R_15d8091d.jpg)
If I had an idea where to get a different pulley that was already spaced right, I'd be all over it!
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 25, 2012, 08:50:28 PM
Your capacity for automotive torture is quite impressive.
:lol: :clap:
This is very true. This thread just sounds painful. Cool car and all, but tons of work.
Eh, I have a pile of leave in December. I need something to do.
Quote from: Rupert on November 26, 2012, 09:11:48 PM
If I had an idea where to get a different pulley that was already spaced right, I'd be all over it!
Yugo? Those are just Fiats in drag, anyways.
Quote from: Rupert on November 30, 2012, 05:10:28 PM
Eh, I have a pile of leave in December. I need something to do.
The Dragon
Done it.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 30, 2012, 05:11:08 PM
Yugo? Those are just Fiats in drag, anyways.
So much so, they're probably the same. ;)
Not really, but I'm not about to spend a month searching for a Yugo or anything else in a junk yard to measure the pulleys. :P
I picked up the pulley + spacer yesterday, and it looks good, so I think Fiat will drive on Monday.
No. Be there in a week.
Quote from: Rupert on November 30, 2012, 05:56:50 PM
So much so, they're probably the same. ;)
Not really, but I'm not about to spend a month searching for a Yugo or anything else in a junk yard to measure the pulleys. :P
I picked up the pulley + spacer yesterday, and it looks good, so I think Fiat will drive on Monday.
If you send me a pic or something with the measurements, I can look through one of my boxes of random assed parts.
Eh, too late, but thanks!
Maybe if this alternator doesn't work and I have to get a new one with a pulley that doesn't fit. :lol:
Either we have an epic fail brewing, or I just need a slightly shorter V-belt. With the belt I have, the alternator pulley touches the lower coolant hose, but I think it'll be OK with a shorter belt. I hope parts stores have a variety of belts lengths in stock...
I spent the rest of the evening re-arranging some of my tools on the 'ole peg board and mounting my new cheap vise to a board so I can clamp it to the bench when needed and then take it off.
So close!
Got it all back together with new cooling system parts (hoses, sensors, t-stat, water pump) and got the alternator on there fine with a shorter belt. I have to wait to fill the cooling system until the RTV dries, and I need some thick wire for the alt to batt connection. I'll probably also try to find a slightly shorter-still belt while I'm at it. And the lower rad hose was wrong, so I had to re-use the original; might try to get the right one.
I think the "flash" the PO saw when he hooked up the alternator may have been because the wire from the alt to batt is spliced-in kind of crappily, and also the insulation is worn through in a couple o spots. :facepalm: Needless to say, I will be going through the wiring at some point.
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2853/1203121911.jpg)
like totally
yeah, so... you could've been aligning the pulley on a supercharger this whole time, instead...
Tomorrow, we drive!
Too late to make a bunch of noise now.
Upon further review, I see why the guy sold it. Under the already tatty interior, rust seems to peek through any and all holes. Might be time to learn to weld and buy a sheet of steel. Oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFxP0H1X5yk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFxP0H1X5yk)
:rockon:
It runs, it drives, it cooks your burrito (presumably)!
There's a terrible belt sound, though...
And the speedo, wipers, turn signals, heater fan, and radiator fan don't work.
Alright then.
Quote from: Rupert on December 08, 2012, 05:07:01 PM
And the speedo, wipers, turn signals, heater fan, and radiator fan don't work.
Alright then.
Blown fuse?
Hehe, not unless I missed a fuse panel. All the ones I can see were good when I checked them. Probably a bad ground or five. The wiring on this thing is pretty fragile.
Definitely more of a project than I was hoping for at this point.
But the alternator is working, no? The battery is charging and you got voltage, right?
Heh, uh, I forgot to check. :lol:
The car started a bunch of times, no problem, but I'll check it tomorrow/later. I was just happy there was no fire. :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on December 08, 2012, 06:14:26 PM
Hehe, not unless I missed a fuse panel. All the ones I can see were good when I checked them. Probably a bad ground or five. The wiring on this thing is pretty fragile.
Definitely more of a project than I was hoping for at this point.
By modern standards it has a simple wiring system that is easy to troubleshoot. Just start checking the wiring to each thing that isn't working. Get a Haynes manual or google for a wiring diagram. A multimeter and test light will be your best friends.
Check, check, check, and check. This ain't my first old European car! :lol:
I think my plan is to go after every easily accessible connection I can find, just as a preventative measure, see if that fixes anything, and then diagnose and repair the remaining stuff. Also, I have an empty hole in the dash, so I might just install a switch for the radiator fan.
StupidFiatSPIN update:
Ended up addressing the terrible belt sound by changing the timing belt and, more importantly, the tensioner bearing, as recommended by the Fiat forum, and I got it in last weekend (finally, after much oops-I-need-a-tool-no-one-has-ing). It was actually pretty simple if you ignore the part of the instructions that have you take off the crank pulley. :nutty: Just don't move anything when the old belt is off! Just now got to test starting it.
The sad part is that this did nothing to stop the whining, goddammit. It also seems to need some help with cold running, as it tries to stall at low RPMs when you get on the gas. Actually, that happens at all temps, it's just worse when the engine is cold. There is also a most hilarious exhaust leak because the DPO didn't bother to have the new exhaust welded. And all the other problems. And leaks.
*sigh* Anybody want to buy a Fiat? :facepalm:
Really, this is way more than I now feel like dealing with, and I want the garage space for the 944 and the money for the 944 and the time to work on the 944, which has been such a nice car. I think it's going on CL, with most of the parts.
I should have finished the 944 and then saved more and then bought a car like this, and probably one better than this.
Might just be the right decision.
Quote from: Rupert on January 13, 2013, 05:53:14 PM
StupidFiatSPIN update:
Ended up addressing the terrible belt sound by changing the timing belt and, more importantly, the tensioner bearing, as recommended by the Fiat forum, and I got it in last weekend (finally, after much oops-I-need-a-tool-no-one-has-ing). It was actually pretty simple if you ignore the part of the instructions that have you take off the crank pulley. :nutty: Just don't move anything when the old belt is off! Just now got to test starting it.
The sad part is that this did nothing to stop the whining, goddammit. It also seems to need some help with cold running, as it tries to stall at low RPMs when you get on the gas. Actually, that happens at all temps, it's just worse when the engine is cold. There is also a most hilarious exhaust leak because the DPO didn't bother to have the new exhaust welded. And all the other problems. And leaks.
*sigh* Anybody want to buy a Fiat? :facepalm:
The low RPM stall/threatened stall is probably the accelerator pump being dried out or set with the wrong stroke. It'd be a $15 fix that would make the car a bit more appealing when you go to sell it. See how well it seems to squirt when you look down the throttle with the engine off. Unless it doesn't have a carb with one of those, in which case loljunkit.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on January 14, 2013, 04:24:31 PM
The low RPM stall/threatened stall is probably the accelerator pump being dried out or set with the wrong stroke. It'd be a $15 fix that would make the car a bit more appealing when you go to sell it. See how well it seems to squirt when you look down the throttle with the engine off. Unless it doesn't have a carb with one of those, in which case loljunkit.
I don't think Fiats have accelerator pumps. I'm guessing a vacuum diaphram has dried up and
gotten too stiff to work properly.
Il powar valvole?
Carb is new.
Probably crappy. Plugs and wires are good, I think, but I haven't even taken off the dizzy cap. I suspect points could be to blame, since points are always to blame, the fucking things. Also, no accounting for the tune the DPO left the carb in. :huh:
Eww points.
I suspect a weak spark. Worn points and/or a bad condensor could cause your symptoms.
Yeah, but that's not even one of the important problems!
Quote from: Rupert on January 15, 2013, 01:15:20 AM
Yeah, but that's not even one of the important problems!
The exhaust leak is cool, and the whining isn't bad until it also makes smoke.
So what else? Rusty floors was it?
Many leaks that are more than I'm cool with, bunch of busted electrical stuff, interior needs to be replaced (plastics and seats are all shitty), and the rusty floors. Some more stuff, too, probably. Also some exterior cosmetics, like what I am sure is way more rust than I want to contend with.
Dump it and move on. That's what I'd say. Lesson learned, put money towards 944 instead.
Solution: strip it out, race car! Srsly, unless you're ready to do a restoration, may as well have some fun with it. What are you going to do, lower the resale value? Neh.
What if the whining is a thrust bearing or something expensive? FUN!
Quote from: Secret Chimp on January 15, 2013, 06:54:41 PM
What if the whining is a thrust bearing or something expensive? FUN!
Or a mouse colony stuck in the crankcase.
Too loud for mice. Rats!
I don't know. Both arguments are compelling. I wish I didn't have a job and another $3000 to spend on this car.
Best case, gut the interior, but still have to address the rusty interior structural bits, who cares about the electrics, pull off the muffler, but still have to weld the exhaust, and then there's whatever is happening with the engine whine and leaks. And then I'd have to upgrade the suspension and brakes.
I bet the whine is just the timing belt being new and tight.
Quote from: Rupert on January 15, 2013, 10:53:29 PM
Too loud for mice. Rats!
I don't know. Both arguments are compelling. I wish I didn't have a job and another $3000 to spend on this car.
Best case, gut the interior, but still have to address the rusty interior structural bits, who cares about the electrics, pull off the muffler, but still have to weld the exhaust, and then there's whatever is happening with the engine whine and leaks. And then I'd have to upgrade the suspension and brakes.
I bet the whine is just the timing belt being new and tight.
Have you checked the tensioner? If it has one. It shouldn't make noise.
I replaced the tensioner, and it sets tension automatically.
Shit is fucked
Fucked is indeed what shit is.
How about you purposefully blow this engine up and buy a Miata drivetrain :s
How about I just buy a Miata. :lol:
Rotary Fiat!
Good Jesus, no.
I don't think I would want to put another engine in. I think the engine is one of the cool parts of the car.
Well, not this engine or this car necessarily, but the Fiat DOHC four in the 124 Spider in general. :lol:
Quote from: Rupert on January 17, 2013, 01:42:46 AM
Well, not this engine or this car necessarily, but the Fiat DOHC four in the 124 Spider in general. :lol:
:lol:
The manuals I have and the Fiat forum say that you aren't supposed to retension the timing belt; once it's tensioned, it's tensioned. Something about making it weaker and risking breaking it. The 944, on the other hand, requires a couple of retensions between changes.
I think that maybe it's OK to retension the timing belt, and the Fiat manual is old and the Fiat people are full of it. Since the timing belt being too tight is what I think is causing the whine, I want to just retension the thing. Thoughts?
(Though the tensioner is automatic, I can puch it back a little and tighten the bolt to keep it there).
Quote from: Rupert on January 20, 2013, 10:18:37 PM
The manuals I have and the Fiat forum say that you aren't supposed to retension the timing belt; once it's tensioned, it's tensioned. Something about making it weaker and risking breaking it. The 944, on the other hand, requires a couple of retensions between changes.
I think that maybe it's OK to retension the timing belt, and the Fiat manual is old and the Fiat people are full of it. Since the timing belt being too tight is what I think is causing the whine, I want to just retension the thing. Thoughts?
(Though the tensioner is automatic, I can puch it back a little and tighten the bolt to keep it there).
Let's see, who makes the more reliable car- the Germans or the Italians??
I'll take the germans' word on it. I doubt the italian timing belt is made of some super special material that disobeys Young's Modulus.
Yeah. I think maybe belts were crappier 40 years ago.
Quote from: Rupert on January 20, 2013, 11:48:23 PM
Yeah. I think maybe belts were crappier 40 years ago.
maybe.
In particular with a new belt. Maybe a belt that had already exceeded the replacement mileage.
I've always heard you should never re-tighten a timing belt once the tension has been set. Supposedly, doing so causes the belt to stretch and may lead to either the belt jumping a tooth or eventually breaking prematurely.
Maybe one of our resident techs could enlighten us?
Timing belts do not require enough tension to stretch the belt significantly.
Technically you aren't supposed to retension a timing belt. In practice I haven't seen any issues. You aren't supposed to bend or fold a timing belt either. :huh:
I will retension it, then.
Next weekend. :P