Why don't people buy new sports cars anymore?

Started by 12,000 RPM, March 15, 2018, 01:39:38 PM

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: Raza  on March 17, 2018, 10:39:11 PM
It's because people don't want to drive anymore, they want to text their way to their final destination.
Yup.....
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Raza  on March 18, 2018, 09:45:26 AM
Did you crash it again?
No, why? Are you hoping I do to validate your cowardice?

Quote from: giant_mtb on March 18, 2018, 08:10:02 AM
You're turning into an unthusiast. 
Hardly, I enjoy the G and am already speccing out my next build. There's a track night at Charlotte Motor Speedway in ~3 weeks, might take the G. I need to hit up Onslaught. Also gonna shoot for 2 track days on the bike this year, as well as 3-4 kart days (already did 1). I read and post on TTAC and TCL daily, have a few auto rag subscriptions, Forza when I can. Watching a MotoGP race right now. My enthusiast punch card is pretty holey in real life.

But I also like to follow the auto business.... understanding the motivations and machinations behind it hardly makes me an enthusiast. What have I said here that's incorrect or untrue?
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

giant_mtb


565

I can see why this is happening.

When I was growing up, most guys were at least somewhat into cars, had dream cars, had posters of supercars, played racing video games.  Now it seems like fewer and fewer people are into cars.  There are just too many other things to obsess over with the internet and social media.  Even I'm not as into cars as I used to be. 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/heres-whats-happened-to-japanese-car-modifying-culture

The decline of the car culture in Japan was big news a few years ago, considering how car crazy that place was in the 1980s and 90s. 



Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 18, 2018, 11:02:08 AM
No, why? Are you hoping I do to validate your cowardice?

Triggered.  You said your bike was in pieces, I was legitimately asking.  I'd never want you to have another crash. 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

12,000 RPM

Getting the suspension redone and tires replaced.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 19, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
Getting the suspension redone and tires replaced.

Was the suspension worn out or are you changing something?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

12,000 RPM

Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

veeman

Quote from: 565 on March 18, 2018, 01:25:56 PM
I can see why this is happening.

When I was growing up, most guys were at least somewhat into cars, had dream cars, had posters of supercars, played racing video games.  Now it seems like fewer and fewer people are into cars.  There are just too many other things to obsess over with the internet and social media.  Even I'm not as into cars as I used to be. 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/heres-whats-happened-to-japanese-car-modifying-culture

The decline of the car culture in Japan was big news a few years ago, considering how car crazy that place was in the 1980s and 90s. 





That was an interesting read.  They indicated that law enforcement had really come down hard on street racing and so now you have very wealthy Japanese driving tricked out supercars at the speed limit; at least in Tokyo. 

Laconian

There was a bullshit "big data" writeup a couple weeks ago called "OUT OF CONTROL: The Deadly Toll Of Street Racing In LA"
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-street-racing/

Do you know what the actual toll came to? 179 people over 17 years. Ten a year. Regrettable, but across a timespan that broad and a population as large as LA, it's peanuts.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 19, 2018, 08:34:44 AM
Depends who is asking.....

Well, I'm not your wife, so you can tell me the truth.  :lol:
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Morris Minor

I was itching to get rid of my G when I was living in the Atlanta suburbs. It is most definitely NOT a good car for the 1 1/4 minute lurches from red light to red light that is life in metro areas. A Prius is a much better car for doing that.

But when I moved out to the country I changed my mind: the G has come into its own - it's a lot of fun, as would be a legit 2-seater sports car. But rural America is not where the wealth is: the money for discretionary items like sports cars is in the nation's metro areas. But the environment to enjoy them is not. So the sports car has to be a weekend entertainment proposition - not a daily driver. Which means you need a 3-car garage: SUV for the missus, Prius appliance for your hellish commutes, and the Corvette/Miata/BRZ in the third bay. That's a minuscule proportion of the population in the sports car niche.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

r0tor

I'm going to fork the thread and all if cars are just too damn expensive and that's causing the decrease in popularity

Sure you can look at car prices adjusted for inflation over the last 20 years and say it's flat- but what happens when you adjust it against average disposable income?  Compared to 20 years ago health care costs have exploded, families are now picking up large cell phone and internet monthly bills, and many young people have college loans the size or mortgages...

Maybe staying flat with inflation just isn't going to cut it anymore for the automobile.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: r0tor on March 19, 2018, 03:09:50 PM
I'm going to fork the thread and all if cars are just too damn expensive and that's causing the decrease in popularity

Sure you can look at car prices adjusted for inflation over the last 20 years and say it's flat- but what happens when you adjust it against average disposable income?  Compared to 20 years ago health care costs have exploded, families are now picking up large cell phone and internet monthly bills, and many young people have college loans the size or mortgages...

Maybe staying flat with inflation just isn't going to cut it anymore for the automobile.
WORD!
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

12,000 RPM

If we are going to price on cost inflation we should price on performance & content inflation too. From that POV cars today are still very cheap. A 2018 Fit is basically as roomy, fast and nice as a 1993 Accord. But it costs like half after inflation. Same story with sports cars
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on March 19, 2018, 11:18:41 AM
I was itching to get rid of my G when I was living in the Atlanta suburbs. It is most definitely NOT a good car for the 1 1/4 minute lurches from red light to red light that is life in metro areas. A Prius is a much better car for doing that.

But when I moved out to the country I changed my mind: the G has come into its own - it's a lot of fun, as would be a legit 2-seater sports car. But rural America is not where the wealth is: the money for discretionary items like sports cars is in the nation's metro areas. But the environment to enjoy them is not. So the sports car has to be a weekend entertainment proposition - not a daily driver. Which means you need a 3-car garage: SUV for the missus, Prius appliance for your hellish commutes, and the Corvette/Miata/BRZ in the third bay. That's a minuscule proportion of the population in the sports car niche.

Yep, pretty much. But instead of a Prius I went with a 4Runner. Same difference :lol:
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

dazzleman

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 16, 2018, 07:51:12 PM
I don't buy sports cars at the moment because other expenses impede it (building family life).

I don't think that generally speaking it's an economic issue. Data shows people earn more in real terms today whining notwithstanding. It's about evolving tastes and priorities. Whole categories of spending, like tech, are relatively new and millenials give them a higher priority than cars. Roads tend to be crowded. Many cities are congested and polluted limiting the appeal of sports car ownership. There even are alternatives (Uber et al) to overall car ownership in general.

And also, yeah, I think cars have become more inert at legal speeds specifically. Very few people track.

Bikes do give the greatest thrill no question. Unfortunately along with a high multiplier of the risk of dying compared to a sports car.

I think it might also be related to the fact that the typical car drives and handles much better than it did several decades ago.  Today, even a Toyota or Honda non-sports car can have good pickup and good handling.  In my early driving days, this was not the case, as many of the regular and/or econobox cars were underpowered, handled poorly, steered poorly, etc.

For the person who isn't a full blown enthusiast, a more average car can deliver the driving fun that the person craves without having to resort to a sports car.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

Lebowski

Quote from: Morris Minor on March 19, 2018, 11:18:41 AM

I was itching to get rid of my G when I was living in the Atlanta suburbs. It is most definitely NOT a good car for the 1 1/4 minute lurches from red light to red light that is life in metro areas. A Prius is a much better car for doing that.

But when I moved out to the country I changed my mind: the G has come into its own - it's a lot of fun, as would be a legit 2-seater sports car. But rural America is not where the wealth is: the money for discretionary items like sports cars is in the nation's metro areas. But the environment to enjoy them is not. So the sports car has to be a weekend entertainment proposition - not a daily driver. Which means you need a 3-car garage: SUV for the missus, Prius appliance for your hellish commutes, and the Corvette/Miata/BRZ in the third bay. That's a minuscule proportion of the population in the sports car niche.



This is pretty much exactly how I feel. If I lived in a more rural area I'd probably buy a fun car again. In a metro area it just doesn't get utilized.

Xer0

Quote from: Lebowski on March 20, 2018, 07:19:34 AM

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. If I lived in a more rural area I'd probably buy a fun car again. In a metro area it just doesn't get utilized.

Not only that, but in the average metro area half the time you're too busy worry about curbing a wheel or bending a rim in a pothole. 

Lebowski

Quote from: Xer0 on March 20, 2018, 09:09:19 AM
Not only that, but in the average metro area half the time you're too busy worry about curbing a wheel or bending a rim in a pothole. 

Yeah, that stuff too.

r0tor

#50
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 20, 2018, 06:22:58 AM
If we are going to price on cost inflation we should price on performance & content inflation too. From that POV cars today are still very cheap. A 2018 Fit is basically as roomy, fast and nice as a 1993 Accord. But it costs like half after inflation. Same story with sports cars

I don't know... Hatches and econo cars have had 150-200hp since the early 90 or late 80s.  I'd put the handling of some of the late 90s examples up against newer items anyday as well.

Higher priced cars have definitely progressed with technology.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

What economy cars (compact/subcompact segment) had 150+ hp before 1996?  Outside of special performance trims like the Civic Si or GTI, the only one that comes to mind is higher trims of the Dodge Neon (150 hp HO 2.0).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 10:23:25 AM
I don't know... Hatches and econo cars have had 150-200hp since the early 90 or late 80s.  I'd put the handling of some of the late 90s examples up against newer items anyday as well.

Higher priced cars have definitely progressed with technology.


Ehhh. Not many, and the ones that did were the special editions. Even hot hatches like the Civic Si and Focus SVT had only 160-170 in the early 2000s. Go back to the early '90s and it was 110-125 for comparable models.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Laconian

I remember the Suzuki Aerio was remarkable in its class because it made 140hp. Wow, so much powah - enough to make you forget about how bizarre the rest of the car is...
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 10:56:40 AM
What economy cars (compact/subcompact segment) had 150+ hp before 1996?  Outside of special performance trims like the Civic Si or GTI, the only one that comes to mind is higher trims of the Dodge Neon (150 hp HO 2.0).

The Escort RS Cosworth; a veritable supercar in '92 and an honest homologation special was in the 220 HP range; an output handily exceeded today by a run of the mill Subaru or Civic.

They aren't as much fun; but they are faster.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 10:23:25 AM
I don't know... Hatches and econo cars have had 150-200hp since the early 90 or late 80s.  I'd put the handling of some of the late 90s examples up against newer items anyday as well.

Higher priced cars have definitely progressed with technology.
Only ones I can think of are the DSMs and the GS-Rs. Everything else was capped around 140HP. Wasn't till the early 00s when everyone threw their hat in the ring (RSX, SRT-4, WRX, SE-R Spec-V, Celica GT-S, Cobalt SS etc.). And all of those cars didn't cost much more than the "hot" hatches from the 90s after inflation. We def get more for our money now; for all intents and purposes a Civic is what an Accord was and a 3 is what a 5 was.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 10:56:40 AM
What economy cars (compact/subcompact segment) had 150+ hp before 1996?  Outside of special performance trims like the Civic Si or GTI, the only one that comes to mind is higher trims of the Dodge Neon (150 hp HO 2.0).

Probe GT, MX6, Celica GTs, Civic SI, Integra, 240SX, DSMs... Too many to name actually
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

#57
Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 01:33:08 PM
Probe GT, MX6, Celica GTs, Civic SI, Integra, 240SX, DSMs... Too many to name actually

None of those are economy cars.

Economy cars = Civic, Corolla, Sentra, Escort, Mirage, Cavalier, Tercel, 323/Protege, Elantra, Accent, Festiva, Metro, Neon, Impreza, etc...
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 01:33:08 PM
Probe GT, MX6, Celica GTs, Civic SI, Integra, 240SX, DSMs... Too many to name actually
Probe GT/MX-6 were the same car and had a whopping 164HP. Also not economy cars by any stretch
No Celica GT ever had more than 134HP.
Mid 90s Civic Si had 125HP.
Already mentioned GS-R.
240SX had 155HP and was not an economy car.
Already mentioned DSMs.

Since there are too many to name lets hear some others. 325iS? 3000GT? Corvette Z06? :lol:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Soup DeVille

Probe GT/ Celica GT are kind of another dying class of cars that you don't see much of anymore. Things like the Mazda 6 or Camry V6 seem like about as close as you'll get today.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator