I hate dealerships

[12,000 RPM]

Sellers have to pay sales tax on cars in Ohio?

[MrH]

No, new car buyers do.  If you trade in, you only pay sales tax on the difference.

[veeman]

Haven't decided for sure or not. I was hanging out with a friend the other night and he said how low his running costs are on his mazda6.

On a whim, I just looked up the 4Runner and projected depreciation coming up. I haven't lost a lot on it yet, but I'm facing quite a bit next year. New Accords are selling for thousands off MSRP. I ran the numbers to see:

- Almost a straight trade one for one.
- I get a car 3 years and 55k miles newer
- auto loan gets stretched 6 months longer, but I save a corresponding amount of money in monthly payment.
- save a minimal amount on interest (2.5% vs 1.9% I think?)
- $100/month savings in gas
- the most important thing: new accord has a ton of autonomous driving features. Trying to make my commute a little less miserable.

Not totally sold on it yet. Depends if they offer enough on trade in on the 4Runner. The new accord is incredible though. It's ten times the car my old Genesis was.

Also I think you're just bored with your car and want to change it up

I keep thinking of changing my Crosstrek for a shift yourself Accord because it'll be quieter and will be geared properly for highway travel.  I think the Accord looks fantastic and I don't see many of them on the road.  The Crosstrek is really great in the winter though and it's compact size is perfect for New York City driving. 

[Morris Minor]

More 206's field of expertise... and I'm sure it gets easier with experience but, for the average guy, selling privately is okay only if you're prepared to put in a *lot* of work. It took a week of farting around to prep my daughter's neglected Prius for sale: fluids, filters, detailing, paint touchups, photographing, fielding the bullshit calls and texts, driving hither & thither to meet buyers, closing the deal. If you've got the time & the inclination, fine, but most people will want to give the keys to the dealers and forgo the premium they'd have got on the private sale.

[Payman]

No, new car buyers do.  If you trade in, you only pay sales tax on the difference.

I tried to explain this a few times to people who say private selling is better. If your new car costs $30,000 and your trade in is worth $20,000 to the dealer, paying sales tax on $10,000 rather than $30,000 is a huge difference, especially up here with the GST.

[MrH]

Also I think you're just bored with your car and want to change it up

I keep thinking of changing my Crosstrek for a shift yourself Accord because it'll be quieter and will be geared properly for highway travel.  I think the Accord looks fantastic and I don't see many of them on the road.  The Crosstrek is really great in the winter though and it's compact size is perfect for New York City driving. 

That too

I considered the manual, but I do so much stop & go high way driving, you lose some of the autonomous features with the manual over the automatic.  The 10-speed isn't great, but it's not bad in terms of autos.  I didn't even bother to drive the 1.5t with the CVT.

The 2.0t is seriously quick.  It'll feel like a rocket ship compared to a crosstrek

[Xer0]

I tried to explain this a few times to people who say private selling is better. If your new car costs $30,000 and your trade in is worth $20,000 to the dealer, paying sales tax on $10,000 rather than $30,000 is a huge difference, especially up here with the GST.

PSA: in the States at least, if your car gets totaled and insurance pays you out, they are also obligated to pay you the corresponding sales tax as well.  It varies State by State so check on your laws, but when my Civic got totaled about 5 years ago, it was appraised at 11.5K and insurance gave me another $900 to cover the sales tax up to that original 11.5K.

[Payman]

PSA: in the States at least, if your car gets totaled and insurance pays you out, they are also obligated to pay you the corresponding sales tax as well.  It varies State by State so check on your laws, but when my Civic got totaled about 5 years ago, it was appraised at 11.5K and insurance gave me another $900 to cover the sales tax up to that original 11.5K.

Yeah in Ontario, GAP insurance covers the tax on the full MSRP, regardless of how much tax you actually paid, plus covers depreciation, so you're not fucked if you total your car on the drive home from the dealership. Not sure of the fine details, but that's the gist of it.

[MrH]

GAP insurance covers the difference in what you owe vs what it's worth.  At least here in the US, it's a total waste as long as you aren't living pay check to pay check.

[WookieOnRitalin]

Oh man, flashback. This was the same for me when I worked at Kohls long ago between semesters. Pushing credit was more important to the sales staff than selling clothing haha. If you weren't keeping up with pace, the floor manager gave you a hard time and would passive-aggressively cut your hours. So the best way to keep him/her off your back was to push applications.

You got a successful signup, your name was announced over the intercom (no kidding.) You got the most applications for the day, you usually got a perk or at least your name on a board or something. There would be store-to-store competitions for credit card signups.

One summer I got the title "The Credit King" because I was killing it. My secret was haggling with the customer so they get a higher percentage off their checkout than the Kohl's promotion. If Kohl's was running 10% off and they weren't biting, I'd offer them 30%. Then just run it as an adjustment w/o anybody's approval. The managers didn't know and probably wouldn't have cared. Those cards had like 27% APY interest, so a 30% off discount was like giving customers their first hit free. Serious business when I think about it now! I'm probably going to hell for my tactics.

I worked at KOHL's for many years in a supervisory or management role. I could tell you a lot of stories about it, but KC was one of the biggest things that the company wanted all staff to sell. It really was not that hard to get people to sign up. I coached my staff to make it worth it for the customer. If you have a line backed up 8 deep, you don't emphasize credit because the name of the game is repeat service. Signing someone up for credit stops the line from moving, so you are making the people behind them less likely to buy credit. The best times are to get the shoppers when the line is low or when you ring someone up after finding them a product. You have already established a relationship by assisting them and then you have the opportunity to sell credit to to discount them further.

Worked most of the time and that's why my teams had good scores for credit even though they were not POS associates.

In general, retail is actually not a terrible business. You can win in retail, but I find that it is impossible to do so without a obsessed focus on customer experience. Our numbers were always high because it was about helping customers make good decisions or helping them make their own decisions by using some easy sales tricks. That and get the stock out of the stockroom. Stock does not sell if it the customers cannot find it our see it.

What's hard is that its not a very rewarding work experience which why I ultimately left to pursue a different career. The pay is good, but not good enough for me to continue it indefinitely.

[Payman]

GAP insurance covers the difference in what you owe vs what it's worth.  At least here in the US, it's a total waste as long as you aren't living pay check to pay check.

At the basic level, yeah. Useful if you financed the whole cost of the car.

[dazzleman]

The retail experience most everywhere is miserable.

Did you make it,to the Audi dealer after our breakfast?  Or did you decide to wait until a day when you felt better?

[12,000 RPM]

MrH it might be worth hiring a car buying service. It's sad that such a service even exists and makes sense to use.

[giant_mtb]

I worked at KOHL's for many years in a supervisory or management role.

I will say that my managers/bosses at the department store I was working (Younkers, a soon-to-be/now-defunct subsidiary of Bon-Ton) were fuckin' awesome.  Was a great job to have as a 16-18 year old.  Was kind of annoying wearing a shirt and tie every day, but it wasn't all bad.

[dazzleman]

The amount of incompetency with car dealerships is incredible.  I don't even know what to say anymore.  Let me take you on this journey.  I'm at a lost for words at some of this.


So Accords are discounted pretty big right now, trade in value on the 4Runner is massive but will be taking a big depreciation dive next year, it's pretty much a one for one trade and I'd get a vehicle that's 3 years newer, 55k fewer miles, $100/month better on gas, and tons of autonomous driving features that should make my hellish commute less painful every day.  I don't totally have my mind made up, but it's intriguing enough to get quotes.


Dealership #1 (Joe Morgan Honda, smaller in size):

- Stop in on my way home from work.  They are short sales staff.  Meet a nice guy, ask for a test drive.  He throws me the keys and I go out for a drive.  I come back, get his card.  Overall, pretty pleasant.  Look at the inventory later.  They don't have what I want, but I emailed him asking for a quote.  That was a week ago, no response

Dealership #2 (King's Honda.  MASSIVE dealership that has just about every OEM you can imagine all in one place.  Biggest dealership in Cincinnati by far):

- Send an email to them asking for a quote and even pick a specific car on their lot.  Zero response.
- I go to the dealership in person a few days later.  Walk around for 15-20 minutes, no one there to wait on me.  No one approaches me.  I walk the entire lot but can't find the one color I wanted to see in person.  Walk out frustrated.





Does nobody want to sell me a car?! What is going on.

Then I made the mistake of asking for a quote through TrueCar.  Here are the responses I get from the 3 participating dealers:

A.  King's Honda
- They have 5 different people reach out to me, through text, email, and voicemails.  Absolutely insane.  They're all asking the same thing worded different ways.  I responded to the first one, asking for a quote, and got nothing back.  I reach out to another and tell her to call off the cavalry, I can't keep up with the assault on all forms of communication, just give me one name to email.  I now get a response from the first lady apologizing for the confusion, asking me if I have any questions.  I literally just forward the same email I sent her two days ago.  Radio silence again

B. Castrucci Honda
- I put down I would prefer to get contacted via email.  I get a long winded voicemail with lots of "uhhh" and they call me Mark the whole time.

C. White Allen Honda
- A reasonable girl responds!  At least so I think.  We exchange a few emails, she gives me a pretty solid price on the Accord, asks if I want to trade in.  I said maybe, provide 4Runner info.  She asks for VIN, mileage, and payoff amount.  I told mileage and VIN, told her don't worry about payoff, I can calculate my loan situation. I would be up for using the promo 1.9% for 36 months from Honda if she gets a kick back and can get me a better overall price.

She then responds with my monthly payment with no trade in, and asks if I have a trade in?  I feel like I'm in Ground Hogs day.  I tell her yes, see above, give me a quote on the trade in.  She responds asking for the VIN and mileage again.  I tell her to read what I just sent her two emails ago.



I'm just in total disbelief.  Why are they all so bad at this?  Why do all of their websites look like a newspaper ad from 1990?    I'm just going to keep the 4Runner until I die.  This is too painful.

I think a modified old-fashioned approach is better with a dealer.

Do your research before you go, and decide what you would consider a good price and a good trade-in value.  Then go in and tell the first person you interact with exactly what you want to do in very definite terms.  That will tell them that you are serious about buying, not just fishing for prices.

Immediately seize control of the discussion when you sit down with the salesperson.  Don't let them divert you into talk about payments, etc.  Tell them you want to know their best price and trade-in value, and if you get the price you want, you will buy that day.  If you are going for financing, tell them you want to know their interest rate and terms.  Do research before so you know if the terms are good, and if they are, then you accept that on the spot too.

Then, make sure you check all the payment calculations.  Bring a financial calculator so you can make sure they don't pad the payments.  But make sure the controlling elements -- price, trade-in and interest rate/terms - have been locked down before you talk payments.  That will tell them they're dealing with somebody who is financially savvy.

These people are all pretty much the same.  They want the sale - now.  If you offer them that as long as they meet your stipulations, they are more likely to be responsive and give you what you want.

[MrH]

Went today and got some sales guy assigned to me. I drove him nuts I could tell.

Him: we put mud flaps on every car, that's $200.
Me: yeah, I don't care. You can take them off, I won't pay for them.

He came back with a crappy trade in number. He asked what it would take to get a deal done. I told him $2000 more. He made it happen but got pissed when I said I wasn't doing the paperwork tonight and would be back next week.

When he came back with the offer: and keep in mind, that's $200 in accessories too I'm giving you for free. I've never done that before.

Me: yeah, I don't care. I didn't ask for them.



Ultimately, he quoted a delta of <$1600 between 4Runner and new accord. Think I'm going to do it. Just need to pick the color. Leaning towards black on black

[12,000 RPM]

Have you ever had a black car? This Kia will be my last. Total PITA to keep looking good, very hot in the summer too. Accord has some interesting colors, live a little.

[dazzleman]

Went today and got some sales guy assigned to me. I drove him nuts I could tell.

Him: we put mud flaps on every car, that's $200.
Me: yeah, I don't care. You can take them off, I won't pay for them.

He came back with a crappy trade in number. He asked what it would take to get a deal done. I told him $2000 more. He made it happen but got pissed when I said I wasn't doing the paperwork tonight and would be back next week.

When he came back with the offer: and keep in mind, that's $200 in accessories too I'm giving you for free. I've never done that before.

Me: yeah, I don't care. I didn't ask for them.



Ultimately, he quoted a delta of <$1600 between 4Runner and new accord. Think I'm going to do it. Just need to pick the color. Leaning towards black on black

It sounds as if you're finally getting somewhere.

[Lebowski]

Don't get ablack car.

[giant_mtb]

Only do black if you either a) don't give a shit, or b) plan to be slightly obsessive about it. 

Five years of black was enough for me.

[MrH]

Wife has only had black cars and will only buy black cars. You guys are right though.

So my other options:

-Silver
-Gray
-White

Red is a no go. I hate Red on cars and it also only comes with an ivory interior, which I also hate. Pretty set on a black interior at this point.

[giant_mtb]

Black. Or silver. Gray in third.

White is nearly as annoying as black, deoending on the climate.

[Lebowski]

Silver or gray. It's an accord, it's not worth the upkeep of a black car, an accord should be a low maintenance car.  I agree white is probably the next hardest color to keep clean after black, certain stains (black road grime, yellowish sap) are a bitch to get off white paint.

[MexicoCityM3]

What kind of Accord are you getting? The sport manual 2.0 should be a sweet drive. I am jealous that we don't get it.

[cawimmer430]

I think the whole model of car buying is a ridiculous anachronism. Better to build them to order, per Tesla, per Christian's new A-Class.

That's what I like about the situation here; I can put together my dream car with the features I want. 


What's the situation like regarding American cars in America - do they come fully-loaded or, like here, can you put together your dream car with the features you want? You'd think that this would be an advantage for domestic brands who produce and sell locally as compared to the Asian and European competition, which import most of their inventory and are almost forced to fully equip them.

[MX793]

That's what I like about the situation here; I can put together my dream car with the features I want. 


What's the situation like regarding American cars in America - do they come fully-loaded or, like here, can you put together your dream car with the features you want? You'd think that this would be an advantage for domestic brands who produce and sell locally as compared to the Asian and European competition, which import most of their inventory and are almost forced to fully equip them.

The mainstream American makes (Ford, Chevy, Dodge) are a bit more like the Japanese in that their option sheets are structured around trims/packages with relatively few standalone options.  You generally end up getting some stuff you don't want packaged with a "must have" feature. 

Pickup trucks still have a pretty sizeable number of individual options, but that's partly because they are so profitable that automakers can afford the cost hit of offering high levels of factory customization.

[shp4man]

Pickups can go from roll up windows and vinyl floor mats to every ridiculous option known to mankind. An ass massager? Really? Or about $27K to $65K.
I would have to order one if it came to it.

[68_427]

Mike

[Payman]

Pickups can go from roll up windows and vinyl floor mats to every ridiculous option known to mankind. An ass massager? Really? Or about $27K to $65K.
I would have to order one if it came to it.

Pickups can get into 6 figures.

[MrH]

I considered the manual, but for sitting in traffic daily, I think the automatic makes more sense. 10-speed auto and 2.0t for me. Didn't even consider the 1.5 liter + CVT. That's a bridge too far for me I still have the S2000 for fun manual driving.

I'm leaning towards silver. I've had two gray cars for awhile, kind of sick of it. My protege5 was silver and I liked it ok. It's down to these two colors though.

There are two blues for Accords. For the Sport model only, there's a brighter blue, but I've decided against the sport trim. The seats are a weird combo of materials, the trim is this awful fake aluminum, and the stereo is unacceptable. The wheels are awful too. The blue is kind of purple to me too.

Think I'm going to go with the EX-L 2.0t w/o navi. Real leather, much better wood trim, much better stereo, memory seats, 17" wheels instead of 19", and a few other things. Only blue that's available in that trim is dark blue, but the interior is light gray. It's way too light and would look dirty quick I think.