GM considers axing Saab, Saturn, Pontiac as part of bailout proposal
This isn?t the first time we?ve heard rumors about GM selling or killing off certain brands, but given the automaker?s extremely precarious situation, it sounds more possible than ever. As part of its detailed plan due to the U.S. Congress by December 2nd, GM is considering including the elimination of Saturn, Saab, Hummer and/or Pontiac as part of its strategy, according to Bloomberg.
Hummer has been up for sale since June, and we wouldn?t be surprised to see GM sell it for less than it?s worth in order to quickly raise cash.
But the possible sale or closure of Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac could come as a shock to many in the industry. Saab would almost certainly be sold off, while Saturn or Pontiac are more likely be shuttered.
The demise of Pontiac would be particularly unfortunate, considering the brand?s storied history over 82 years. Saturn, on the other hand, has only been making cars for 18 years, so its closure would come more naturally. Whether popular vehicles like the Pontiac G6 and Saturn Sky would be rebranded as Chevrolet models remains to be seen. A recent report indicates plans for a next-generation Pontiac G8 and Solstice were recently shelved.
We?re surprised to hear GM isn?t considering shedding Buick, which in many ways overlaps with Cadillac. Moreover, some observers have suggested GM could sell Buick to China?s SAIC ? a possible win-win for everyone involved. That said, it doesn?t look like this option is currently on the table.
GM?s board of directors will review the finished proposal November 30th, and it will be submitted to Congress on December 2nd. Hearings on Capitol Hill will resume December 5th, and a vote could come as soon as December 8th.
The thread title and the headline have a very important difference...
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 27, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
We?re surprised to hear GM isn?t considering shedding Buick, which in many ways overlaps with Cadillac. Moreover, some observers have suggested GM could sell Buick to China?s SAIC ? a possible win-win for everyone involved. That said, it doesn?t look like this option is currently on the table.
Why would they? If they want to keep making money, then selling cars in China needs to be part of that, and Buick sells more cars in China then anyone.
Quote from: ifcar on November 27, 2008, 07:57:09 AM
The thread title and the headline have a very important difference...
Happy now?
What's the source?
They clearly need to cut back on the number of brands they offer, since it increases production costs relative to sales.
I'd prefer to see them sell off Saab if need be, rather than just axe it, because Saab is a more unique product, while Pontiac and Saturn really aren't, and can be blended more easily into their existing product lines.
I'm surprised they're not killing off Buick rather than Pontiac, but I wasn't aware that so many Buicks were sold in China. That's interesting. Here, Buick is only for people who are 80+ years old, mostly.
GM already axed a brand with a lot of tradition: Oldsmobile. :frown:
Pontiac or Buick? Both have decades of history and heritage ( :thumbsup:) but that won't help in this case. I hardly know the finer points of the GM empire, but axing Saturn seems like a "good deal", especially if you can rebadge or sell those Saturn with Chevrolet badges. Isn't Chevrolet the GM brand "for everyone"? For the working man, for the wealthy etc.? Isn't it so?
Hummer? Was there ever a large market for these cars?
Quote from: dazzleman on November 27, 2008, 08:30:28 AM
They clearly need to cut back on the number of brands they offer, since it increases production costs relative to sales.
I'd prefer to see them sell off Saab if need be, rather than just axe it, because Saab is a more unique product, while Pontiac and Saturn really aren't, and can be blended more easily into their existing product lines.
Is there anything sold in the Saturn lineup that would even get a rebadge, since every car in their lineup is already a rebadge of something else?
QuoteI'm surprised they're not killing off Buick rather than Pontiac, but I wasn't aware that so many Buicks were sold in China. That's interesting. Here, Buick is only for people who are 80+ years old, mostly.
Yeah. Buick is the #1 seller in China.
Don't axe Saab, sell it off.
I would be fine with axing Saturn and Pontiac. Make the Saturn Sky into a Chevy and make the next G8 the next Impala.
About time.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 27, 2008, 09:28:56 AM
Don't axe Saab, sell it off.
I would be fine with axing Saturn and Pontiac. Make the Saturn Sky into a Chevy and make the next G8 the next Impala.
Make the Sky or Solstice a Chevy and scrap the rest. The next G8 is probably dead anyway.
Pontiac and Saturn are, for the most part, redundant. The only unique vehicle Saturn has is the Astra which is really just a rebadged Opel. The G8 is really the only unique vehicle in the Pontiac lineup and could be rebadged as a Chevy if they kept it. Buick could be sold in China and axed here. One has to also wonder why GMC exists.
Quote from: Catman on November 27, 2008, 10:07:47 AM
Pontiac and Saturn are, for the most part, redundant. The only unique vehicle Saturn has is the Astra which is really just a rebadged Opel. The G8 is really the only unique vehicle in the Pontiac lineup and could be rebadged as a Chevy if they kept it. Buick could be sold in China and axed here. One has to also wonder why GMC exists.
The Vue is unique in North America. No other GM division sells a vehicle on the same platform.
Quote from: MX793 on November 27, 2008, 10:20:55 AM
The Vue is unique in North America. No other GM division sells a vehicle on the same platform.
The coming redesign Equinox will fill that void.
Out of all three brands, Pontiac should stay. Saturn (as much as I like it) needs to go. Saab should be sold off.
GMC needs to go.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 27, 2008, 09:44:29 AM
Make the Sky or Solstice a Chevy and scrap the rest. The next G8 is probably dead anyway.
Just rebadge a next gen Holden Commodore and make it a Chevy Impala.
I'll be sad to see Pontiac go, from the '77 Trans Am in Smokey and the Bandit to the '83 Trans Am in Knight Rider to the '93 and '98 Trans Ams that I love to the '93 Grand Prix LE that was my first car, I have a lot of ties to the brand.
But oh well...
Quote from: 2o6 on November 27, 2008, 11:43:32 AM
Out of all three brands, Pontiac should stay. Saturn (as much as I like it) needs to go. Saab should be sold off.
GMC needs to go.
Although GMC is very redundant, it is also very low cost so I see little reason to get rid of it.
Quote from: TBR on November 27, 2008, 02:55:36 PM
Although GMC is very redundant, it is also very low cost so I see little reason to get rid of it.
GMC and Chevy trucks don't share sheet metal anymore. They used to just have different grilles, but now they have unique sheet metal too.
Good. I can stop raging at "we have so many cars that get over 30 mpg, more than Honda or Toyota" with "THE ENCLAVE, ACADIA, TRAVERSE AND OUTLOOK ARE ALL THE SAME GODDAMN CAR"
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 27, 2008, 03:25:06 PM
GMC and Chevy trucks don't share sheet metal anymore. They used to just have different grilles, but now they have unique sheet metal too.
Yeah, some of it is different, but they still share more than say the G6 and the Aura.
Quote from: TBR on November 27, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
The coming redesign Equinox will fill that void.
I thought the new Equinox is on a different platform from the Vue?
Quote from: MX793 on November 27, 2008, 04:20:16 PM
I thought the new Equinox is on a different platform from the Vue?
That's the rumor, but it should be similar in size I would think.
Quote from: MX793 on November 27, 2008, 04:20:16 PM
I thought the new Equinox is on a different platform from the Vue?
VUE = GM Theta I with some Theta II bits.
New Equinox = GM Theta II.
While I don't like the thought of Saab being sold off, I do like it better than it getting axed all together. Though with GM's current situation, it could be for the best. The brand is mostly independent anyways, and they aren't going to be getting any money from GM here anytime soon. I don't know who would buy them though. The French maybe? Or the Chinese would I guess. Not sure what I think of that though.
Quote from: CosmicSaab on November 27, 2008, 05:07:32 PM
While I don't like the thought of Saab being sold off, I do like it better than it getting axed all together. Though with GM's current situation, it could be for the best. The brand is mostly independent anyways, and they aren't going to be getting any money from GM here anytime soon. I don't know who would buy them though. The French maybe? Or the Chinese would I guess. Not sure what I think of that though.
Maybe the actual Saab company would want to buy them back?
In North America, everything except Chevrolet and Cadillac should go. Worldwide, I don't know enough to comment.
Quote from: TBR on November 27, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
The coming redesign Equinox will fill that void.
Correct.
Quote from: TurboDan on November 27, 2008, 05:44:01 PM
Maybe the actual Saab company would want to buy them back?
They'd probably have to either attract private equity money, or float bonds or stocks on the public market in order to do that. I'm not sure what the prospects of any of that are in the current environment.
Quote from: dazzleman on November 27, 2008, 06:04:08 PM
They'd probably have to either attract private equity money, or float bonds or stocks on the public market in order to do that. I'm not sure what the prospects of any of that are in the current environment.
I imagine the actual up front costs of buying Saab would be rather low. To actually buy the brand and property GM would probably sell for very little, even just to get rid of the costs of running it day to day. It would be all the R&D and operational money that would be the issue as far as I can tell. There aren't a lot of companies out there that have that kind of money right now.
Maybe GM and Ford can spin off Saab and Volvo into a company of their own. That's probably the best scenario for the two companies. I'm not sure how much longer Ford is going to hold onto Volvo either. If they sold off much of their stake in Mazda, Volvo can't be too far behind.
Quote from: CosmicSaab on November 27, 2008, 06:21:25 PM
I imagine the actual up front costs of buying Saab would be rather low. To actually buy the brand and property GM would probably sell for very little, even just to get rid of the costs of running it day to day. It would be all the R&D and operational money that would be the issue as far as I can tell. There aren't a lot of companies out there that have that kind of money right now.
Maybe GM and Ford can spin off Saab and Volvo into a company of their own. That's probably the best scenario for the two companies. I'm not sure how much longer Ford is going to hold onto Volvo either. If they sold off much of their stake in Mazda, Volvo can't be too far behind.
I would think they'd have to sell it to one of the stronger auto manufacturers, for the reasons you mentioned.
Does Saab make money for GM, and Volvo for Ford?
When companies get desperate, they start to sell off their better assets to raise needed cash. That's what AIG is doing right now. Would Saab and Volvo be considered among the better assets for GM and Ford right now?
Saab doesn't make money; Volvo does. More than anything, though, both brands do a lot of R&D for the rest of the company.
GM bought Saab as a response to Ford outbidding (and way overpaying) GM for Jaguar. Anymore, all of these brands seem to be more or less irrelevant.
Quote from: dazzleman on November 27, 2008, 06:24:02 PM
I would think they'd have to sell it to one of the stronger auto manufacturers, for the reasons you mentioned.
Does Saab make money for GM, and Volvo for Ford?
When companies get desperate, they start to sell off their better assets to raise needed cash. That's what AIG is doing right now. Would Saab and Volvo be considered among the better assets for GM and Ford right now?
I doubt it. Volvo's sales in North America have crashed. I have no idea about Saab's sales, but structure-wise they're both pretty integrated into their parent companies lineups. Saab uses the Ecotec, corporate V6 and Epsilon platform with the rest of GM and Volvo shares the large car platform with Ford. It would make them hard to seperate and sell.
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on November 27, 2008, 06:40:11 PM
I doubt it. Volvo's sales in North America have crashed. I have no idea about Saab's sales, but structure-wise they're both pretty integrated into their parent companies lineups. Saab uses the Ecotec, corporate V6 and Epsilon platform with the rest of GM and Volvo shares the large car platform with Ford. It would make them hard to seperate and sell.
I'd say that Mazda and Ford were/are just as integrated as Ford and Volvo.
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on November 27, 2008, 06:40:11 PM
I doubt it. Volvo's sales in North America have crashed. I have no idea about Saab's sales, but structure-wise they're both pretty integrated into their parent companies lineups. Saab uses the Ecotec, corporate V6 and Epsilon platform with the rest of GM and Volvo shares the large car platform with Ford. It would make them hard to seperate and sell.
They're integrated from a production/design point of view, but the brand identity of Saab and Volvo is quite separate from that of the other brands owned by GM and Ford. So that represents a conundrum as far as what to do with those brands.
I am not an expert, but there's seems to be a niche market for Saab and Volvo that there may not be for, say, Buick or Mercury.
Ford will hold onto Volvo for as long as possible. Ford has been leaning on Volvo's engineering expertise for it's new models, both in North America and in Europe. Rest assured, if the day ever comes when Ford has to put Volvo on the block, Ford Motor Company will be finished.
Ford just recently put one of it's own men in charge of Volvo for the very first time. Stephen Odell was appointed President and CEO of Volvo Car Corporation from 1 October 2008. He is the first non-Swede to hold this position at Volvo.
Prior to his latest position, from April 2008 Stephen Odell was chief operating officer, Ford of Europe, responsible for product development, manufacturing, purchasing, and marketing, sales and service operations.
Between September 2005 and April 2008, Mr. Odell was Ford Motor Company vice president and vice president of Marketing, Sales and Service, Ford of Europe. Prior to this position, Stephen Odell was director and senior managing executive officer in charge of marketing, sales and customer services at Mazda Motor Corporation in Japan, where he was also a member of the board.
Mr. Odell joined Ford Motor Company in 1980 as a graduate trainee, Ford of Britain.
He worked in several management positions in sales and marketing in Britain and the U.S., before being appointed vice president marketing & sales, Jaguar North America, in 1997.
In January 2000, Mr. Odell joined Mazda Motor North America as a vice president marketing & sales.
Mr. Odell became chief operations officer, Mazda North America, in October 2000, and was appointed president of Mazda Europe in January 2002.
In May 2003, he was elected senior managing executive officer, marketing, sales and customer services, Mazda Motor Corporation, Japan.
By putting one of it's own high-flyers in charge of Volvo, Ford is demonstrating it is dedicated to keeping the Swedish manufacturer in the Ford family.
OTOH, Saab is in a very different position. GM has allowed Saab's engineering team to wither away. Today's Saabs are cobbled together with components supplied almost exclusivly from the GM parts bin. Unlike the Volvo-Ford relationship, Saab is not really interwoven into the GM empire. Rather, it is more of an appendage to GM's European operations, and one in which the parent company could very well live without.
If Saab were to be sold off, GM would surely want to continue supplying parts for Saab's existing models. Saab could also continue building the 9-3 based Cadillac BLS for the European market until such a time as GM could develop it's own replacement.
The real question is who would want to buy a struggling minnow of a carmaker like Saab, especially in the current economic environment?
Cheers,
Madman of the People
I think you overestimate Volvo's importance to Ford. Remember that there is a lot sharing between Mazda and Ford.
Quote from: TBR on November 27, 2008, 09:02:44 PM
I think you overestimate Volvo's importance to Ford. Remember that there is a lot sharing between Mazda and Ford.
Which is why Ford still retains a partial interest of Mazda. It's ownership may be diminished, but Ford remains the single largest shareholder of Mazda stock.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: Madman on November 27, 2008, 09:07:45 PM
Which is why Ford still retains a partial interest of Mazda. It's ownership may be diminished, but Ford remains the single largest shareholder of Mazda stock.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
But they have relinquished controlling majority, I am sure we can expect the same to happen with Volvo.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 27, 2008, 11:43:32 AM
GMC needs to go.
Why? They sell a lot of them and I know a couple of people that would buy another brand if GMC didn't exist. It's not like the GMC brand costs them lots of money and I think the brands actually profitable. A few parts have different logos on them but overall it's not many and literally millions of people think it's better looking.
Why does GMC exist? What's the difference between a Chevrolet _______ and a rebadged GMC ______? Aren't they the same from a price perspective? Both versions from Chevy or GMC strike me as the "construction man's car". :huh:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 28, 2008, 08:30:59 AM
Why does GMC exist? What's the difference between a Chevrolet _______ and a rebadged GMC ______? Aren't they the same from a price perspective? Both versions from Chevy or GMC strike me as the "construction man's car". :huh:
GMCs are typically a little higher end than the equivalent Chevy. Additionally, GM's heavier duty trucks/vans are exclusively sold under the GMC brand.
Quote from: MX793 on November 28, 2008, 08:46:04 AM
GMCs are typically a little higher end than the equivalent Chevy. Additionally, GM's heavier duty trucks/vans are exclusively sold under the GMC brand.
Thanks. ;)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 28, 2008, 09:04:46 AM
Thanks. ;)
Actually, a quick double check reveals that you can get the "medium duty" (light dump trucks and such) trucks from both Chevy and GMC.
Saab should be sold to a company that will actually let it design its own cars and be its own brand rather than a place for more rebadges and "go-with-the-flow" strategies.
Saturn can die. Pontiac, unless properly differentiated, can go too.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=16618.msg934088#msg934088 date=1227975148
Saab should be sold to a company that will actually let it design its own cars and be its own brand rather than a place for more rebadges and "go-with-the-flow" strategies.
Saturn can die. Pontiac, unless properly differentiated, can go too.
I agree. But what about Buick?
Quote from: dazzleman on November 29, 2008, 09:49:19 AM
I agree. But what about Buick?
I think Buick is differentiated well enough. They do have the market on soft, passenger focused cars that aren't made by Lexus, and they're very popular in the emerging market of China. Yes, there is some perceived overlap with Cadillac, but with the Cadillac revolution, they don't really sit in the same sector of the market anymore (other than the current FWD DTS). I worked up a plan once that would have GM keeping all its current brands and surviving, but it was slim. Really slim.
Buick is on the fence. I could see it go and not care one bit, but I think a lot of Buick customers won't filter back into GM products (whereas Pontiac customers probably will, and Saturn customers may), rather they'd flock to cars like the Camry or Avalon. They could stand to lose more by getting rid of Buicj.
Quote from: dazzleman on November 29, 2008, 09:49:19 AM
I agree. But what about Buick?
Buick is the #1 selling marque in china. China has 1 billion people, and a growing audience of those that can afford cars.
Not happening.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=16618.msg934088#msg934088 date=1227975148
Saab should be sold to a company that will actually let it design its own cars and be its own brand rather than a place for more rebadges and "go-with-the-flow" strategies.
Saturn can die. Pontiac, unless properly differentiated, can go too.
Pontiac could stay (even with their GM switchgear and platform sharing) if they sported-up the brand. (FWD Cars and all) I think the G6 looks great, has a sporty stance, but has nothing that actually makes it sporty. Maybe a 5 or 6 speed manual, or some suspention changes could do the trick.
Saturn can go. After the elimination of the S-series and Plastic Bodypanels (with the ION) it no longer has anything unique.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 29, 2008, 11:08:55 AM
Buick is the #1 selling marque in china. China has 1 billion people, and a growing audience of those that can afford cars.
Not happening.
As someone already stated, they can axe Buick in North America and continue to sell the brand in China. Buick China is really its own seperate entity from Buick NA anyway (just as Chevy EU sells a totally different lineup from Chevy NA), so the loss of Buick NA would have zero effect.
Quote from: MX793 on November 29, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
As someone already stated, they can axe Buick in North America and continue to sell the brand in China. Buick China is really its own seperate entity from Buick NA anyway (just as Chevy EU sells a totally different lineup from Chevy NA), so the loss of Buick NA would have zero effect.
However, Buick is being pitched as something different. Cadillac is Sports Luxury, while Buick caters to luxury, without the sports aspect.
Quote from: MX793 on November 29, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
As someone already stated, they can axe Buick in North America and continue to sell the brand in China. Buick China is really its own seperate entity from Buick NA anyway (just as Chevy EU sells a totally different lineup from Chevy NA), so the loss of Buick NA would have zero effect.
The Chinese are very conscious about stuff like this. MG recently started reselling the TF, but is building the first few hundred in England for sale to the UK market, stating that without a production and sales base in the UK and mainland Europe, the Chinese consumer will not accept their car. The brand has to be legitimized.
GMC is a true sales success story for GM.
Over the years, GM has ingrained in many truck buyers the alleged superiority of GMC over the "cheaper-made" Chevy.
Many GMC pickup and full-size van buyers won't go to Chevy if their brand is axed. They'll try something else first.
However, the Acadia sells in such microscopic quantities that GM could drop it and make just Traverses at the low end and Enclaves at the top end of that market. PBG doesn't need a redundant "better than Chevy" crossover any more than it needs a redundant "better than Chevy" car line--Pontiac-- Buick will do.
Another aspect of dropping Buick domestically is that it might create an impression in China that Buick China is fobbing off obsolete and undesirable goods and thus kill the brand there as well.
Quote from: Nebtek2002 on November 29, 2008, 03:13:08 PM
Over the years, GM has ingrained in many truck buyers the alleged superiority of GMC over the "cheaper-made" Chevy.
This statement shows the true stupidity of GM. If only you could replace the word "Chevy" there with some brand that was actually a competitor. :rolleyes: It's come to the point where they just use their separate brands to cannibalize each other.
I know it's historical and all, but if GM wants to sell cars, it should axe Chevrolet. Nobody wants to drive a Chevy car.
Yes, Chevy trucks are seen as OK, but really, I can't imagine anyone buys Chevy cars for any reason besides price. That may not be fair, as some of their newer cars are pretty nice, but nobody is buying them for that reason.
Quote from: TurboDan on November 29, 2008, 03:35:03 PM
I know it's historical and all, but if GM wants to sell cars, it should axe Chevrolet. Nobody wants to drive a Chevy car.
Yes, Chevy trucks are seen as OK, but really, I can't imagine anyone buys Chevy cars for any reason besides price. That may not be fair, as some of their newer cars are pretty nice, but nobody is buying them for that reason.
Chevy trucks could all be migrated over to GMC. Other Chevys could be migrated over to Buick or Pontiac, if they're worth anything. So maybe your idea has merit.
And if they want to keep the Chevrolet Corvette alive, just throw a legacy Chevy badge on there and sell it at Pontiac or Buick dealerships.
Quote from: TurboDan on November 29, 2008, 03:40:46 PM
And if they want to keep the Chevrolet Corvette alive, just throw a legacy Chevy badge on there and sell it at Pontiac or Buick dealerships.
True.
It's sad that GM has come to this point. When I was a kid, they were the reigning car company. My family always owned Fords back then, and I always wished we had a GM car. GM just seemed to be a 'cooler' car back then, for some odd reason.
Quote from: dazzleman on November 29, 2008, 03:43:48 PM
True.
It's sad that GM has come to this point. When I was a kid, they were the reigning car company. My family always owned Fords back then, and I always wished we had a GM car. GM just seemed to be a 'cooler' car back then, for some odd reason.
Because they actually had a lot of cool cars back then. Now, they have a few cool models but the majority are just outclassed (though that's changing now)
Just FYI. Volvo is not profitable for Ford either. The Volvo division has not been profitable for several years now. They are not really an asset that Ford needs, but they are closer to one than Saab is of GM. Ford, like it or not, has no real luxury brand, but Volvo is the closest. Lincoln still is pretty much a joke. Saab isn't something GM needs right now either. It does give them a brand for the entry premium market that seems to be gaining traction, but they could put Caddy there too, even though they don't want to.
GM has no traction in Europe. Saab seems to be it for them.
Quote from: CosmicSaab on November 29, 2008, 10:18:38 PM
Just FYI. Volvo is not profitable for Ford either. The Volvo division has not been profitable for several years now. They are not really an asset that Ford needs, but they are closer to one than Saab is of GM. Ford, like it or not, has no real luxury brand, but Volvo is the closest. Lincoln still is pretty much a joke. Saab isn't something GM needs right now either. It does give them a brand for the entry premium market that seems to be gaining traction, but they could put Caddy there too, even though they don't want to.
Are you going to change your name to WhiteBMW?
Why not put Cadillac at the top, Chevrolet at the bottom and Buick smack in the middle? Does GM really need anymore than that? :huh:
Quote from: MX793 on November 28, 2008, 08:46:04 AM
GMCs are typically a little higher end than the equivalent Chevy. Additionally, GM's heavier duty trucks/vans are exclusively sold under the GMC brand.
In other words, it's basically the truck version of Mercury. That's not a very persuasive argument.
Axe it. No reason why those GMC truck sales can't be retained through Chevrolet. Or are GMC buyers
that stupid/brand loyal that it would make a difference, everything else being equal?
Quote from: the Teuton on November 29, 2008, 10:49:16 PM
GM has no traction in Europe. Saab seems to be it for them.
Opel and Vauxhall are wholely owned by GM. The New Insignia was named Car of the Year........
Quote from: Raza on November 29, 2008, 09:56:39 AM
I worked up a plan once that would have GM keeping all its current brands and surviving, but it was slim. Really slim.
I had to think for a while about it, but I almost accomplished the same thing:
Chevy: mainstream brand to compete with Ford, Toyota
Cruze, Malibu, Camaro, Corvette, etc.
Saturn: entry-level trendy "hipster" brand akin to Scion
Astra (competitively priced this time, with the sedan and folding hardtop in place of the hatches), and some lil box car built on the Astra platform
Pontiac: sporty Mazda/Subaru type brand
G8, Solstice (although I do prefer the looks of the Sky), sport-tuned Insignia (next G6?), 2-door Pontiac-exclusive version of the Cruze (along with SS equivalent)
Buick: "Lexus on a budget" type brand
spruced up Commodore/G8, Holden Caprice (Electra?) in place of current sedans, maybe a luxo-Camaro-based halo car with a folding hardtop (Riviera?)
Cadillac: keep current lineup as M-B, Lexus fighter
(although I really REALLY want to see a CTS convertible)
GMC: trucks and SUVs
Saab: tricky. They should be a sportier pseudo-lux premium brand like Acura. Let them develop their own cars instead of using GM platforms, or else just spin them off independently.
no more than two SUV's on each of the Theta/Lambda platforms, probably to Chevy and GMC
Hummer: sorry, can't help with that one.
Quote from: Vinsanity on December 01, 2008, 02:50:29 PM
I had to think for a while about it, but I almost accomplished the same thing:
Chevy: mainstream brand to compete with Ford, Toyota
Cruze, Malibu, Camaro, Corvette, etc.
Saturn: entry-level trendy "hipster" brand akin to Scion
Astra (competitively priced this time, with the sedan and folding hardtop in place of the hatches), and some lil box car built on the Astra platform
Pontiac: sporty Mazda/Subaru type brand
G8, Solstice (although I do prefer the looks of the Sky), sport-tuned Insignia (next G6?), 2-door Pontiac-exclusive version of the Cruze (along with SS equivalent)
Buick: "Lexus on a budget" type brand
spruced up Commodore/G8, Holden Caprice (Electra?) in place of current sedans, maybe a luxo-Camaro-based halo car with a folding hardtop (Riviera?)
Cadillac: keep current lineup as M-B, Lexus fighter
(although I really REALLY want to see a CTS convertible)
GMC: trucks and SUVs
Saab: tricky. They should be a sportier pseudo-lux premium brand like Acura. Let them develop their own cars instead of using GM platforms, or else just spin them off independently.
no more than two SUV's on each of the Theta/Lambda platforms, probably to Chevy and GMC
Hummer: sorry, can't help with that one.
The Astra sedan looks too much like a Cobalt.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2008, 02:52:29 PM
The Astra sedan looks too much like a Cobalt.
The Cobalt sedan looks too much like an Astra.
Quote from: NACar on December 01, 2008, 03:07:29 PM
The Cobalt sedan looks too much like an Astra.
Other way around, the Cobalt came first.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
Other way around, the Cobalt came first.
Other way around, the Astra concept came first.
Quote from: NACar on December 01, 2008, 03:24:34 PM
Other way around, the Astra concept came first.
No, the Cobalt sedan came first. The Astra sedan wasn't created until last year.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2008, 03:31:37 PM
No, the Cobalt sedan came first. The Astra sedan wasn't created until last year.
(http://www.carcierge.co.uk/images/vauxhall_astra_club_lrg_1.jpg)
:rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on December 01, 2008, 04:06:31 PM
(http://www.carcierge.co.uk/images/vauxhall_astra_club_lrg_1.jpg)
:rolleyes:
Talking about the CURRENT astra
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2008, 04:13:21 PM
Talking about the CURRENT astra
YOU CAN'T JUST CHANGE THE RULES LIKE THAT
In regards to Pontiac:
I owned a Grand Am several years ago. Apparently, this got me onto the lifelong mailing list for Pontiac propaganda. Usually, every six moths or so, I get a flashy little brochure touting their latest models and how great they are.
The last one was titled "3 over 30," and focussed completely on fuel efficiency. No mention of power, performance, or handling anywhere. This is supposed to be the performance division, isn't it?
If not even GM knows what to do with Pontiac, axe it while true performance machines like the GTO and Firebird are still in recent memory.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
In regards to Pontiac:
I owned a Grand Am several years ago. Apparently, this got me onto the lifelong mailing list for Pontiac propaganda. Usually, every six moths or so, I get a flashy little brochure touting their latest models and how great they are.
The last one was titled "3 over 30," and focussed completely on fuel efficiency. No mention of power, performance, or handling anywhere. This is supposed to be the performance division, isn't it?
If not even GM knows what to do with Pontiac, axe it while true performance machines like the GTO and Firebird are still in recent memory.
I inquired about the GTO in 2004 (and 2005), and that got me on the lifelong mailing list as well.
Mazda keeps sending me shit but at least I got a nice MX5 poster out of it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
In regards to Pontiac:
I owned a Grand Am several years ago. Apparently, this got me onto the lifelong mailing list for Pontiac propaganda. Usually, every six moths or so, I get a flashy little brochure touting their latest models and how great they are.
The last one was titled "3 over 30," and focussed completely on fuel efficiency. No mention of power, performance, or handling anywhere. This is supposed to be the performance division, isn't it?
If not even GM knows what to do with Pontiac, axe it while true performance machines like the GTO and Firebird are still in recent memory.
I got that same flyer. And I don't even remember the last time I requested any Pontiac information. Apparently, they keep your info FOREVER.