1. Ferrari 488 Pista
(https://icdn-1.motor1.com/images/mgl/Xnn06/s1/ferrari-488-pista-leaked-official-image.jpg)
(https://icdn-5.motor1.com/images/mgl/E778M/s1/ferrari-488-pista-leaked-official-image.jpg)
(https://icdn-8.motor1.com/images/mgl/vvvJR/s1/ferrari-488-pista-leaked-official-image.jpg)
(https://icdn-5.motor1.com/images/mgl/7ggm1/s1/ferrari-488-pista-leaked-official-image.jpg)
(https://icdn-8.motor1.com/images/mgl/0XX7j/s1/ferrari-488-pista-leaked-official-image.jpg)
711hp, 90kg lighter than "regular" 488
2. 991.2 Porsche GT3 RS
(https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/16x9_1858w/public/news-listicle/image/_wr_2387.jpg?itok=wudiA9SL)
(https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/16x9_1858w/public/news-listicle/image/_wr_4808.jpg?itok=cHtJNqH6)
(https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/16x9_1858w/public/news-listicle/image/_wr_7089.jpg?itok=0L8QpYWK)
520hp of N/A goodness
Is the Porsche available with a stick?
Based on looks alone, Ferrari. I'll never have any real experience with either, so which one I'd rather have a poster of is the winner. :lol:
The 488 is an aesthetic improvement over the 458, but I'm still not warming to these rolling computers. GT3 RS looks great, but I'd go back to the 997 GT3 RS because I like to row my own.
I want the GT3 more tbh
The Italian gets my Stamp Of Approval.......
I'd rather have the money. But between the two I'm taking the Ferrari.
Ferrari.
The Porsche just doesn't look as cool as any supercar.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 20, 2018, 08:59:21 PM
Ferrari.
The Porsche just doesn't look as cool as any supercar.
RIGHT!
I thought Porsche was offering a stick once more in the GT3? You can get one in the GT3 touring model they offer.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 20, 2018, 06:42:57 PM
Based on looks alone, Ferrari. I'll never have any real experience with either, so which one I'd rather have a poster of is the winner. :lol:
This was basically my thought.
The Ferrari is prettier, so that one. :praise:
Quote from: Submariner on February 20, 2018, 09:55:13 PM
I thought Porsche was offering a stick once more in the GT3? You can get one in the GT3 touring model they offer.
Yes but not the RS
For me, of these two, 488 begrudgingly. I don't like the looks of either. Ferrari looks squashed in person and the Porsche looks garish. Porsche also looks big in person. I'm with Raza... give me a 997 C2S with Ohlins R&T and a shorter final drive and I'm OK.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 20, 2018, 07:45:59 PM
The Ferrari then.
How is that the dispositive fact? Ferrari doesn't even know what a manual transmission is anymore.
Quote from: Submariner on February 20, 2018, 09:55:13 PM
I thought Porsche was offering a stick once more in the GT3? You can get one in the GT3 touring model they offer.
Just the GT3; the RS is PDK only. I'm conceptually okay with that. The GT3 RS is a track car, and a PDK makes sense on a track. Doesn't make me want one, though.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 06:11:12 AM
How is that the dispositive fact? Ferrari doesn't even know what a manual transmission is anymore.
Ferrari's *customers* don't know what they are anymore. I don't blame them. You want a 300HP stickshift sports car.... huh. Only choices are the 718, 370Z, and a new old stock Evora. Everything else is either way under or way over.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 07:20:09 AM
Ferrari's *customers* don't know what they are anymore. I don't blame them. You want a 300HP stickshift sports car.... huh. Only choices are the 718, 370Z, and a new old stock Evora. Everything else is either way under or way over.
I can go up to the low 400s. :lol:
Think I'd go with the Porsche. Maybe in a more conservative color scheme. Ferrari is just too exoticar/Beverly Hills/can't park it a Walmart for me. :lol:
Ferrari, its prettier.
Although this is a funny comparison since its the battle of two horses. Throw in the Mustang GT350 in there and we have a 3 way stallion fight!
The Rustang looks better than either :mask:
Someone brought their GT350 to a local autocross last year and man did Ford do something right with the body modifications to that car, a real stunner.
I personally would take the Ferrari by far. Much more exotic.
However, in my experience people who actually can afford these level of cars many times get both. Our really wealthy club members do that.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 06:11:12 AM
How is that the dispositive fact? Ferrari doesn't even know what a manual transmission is anymore.
I'd feel like a douche spending that much on my "dream car" and not getting a manual. Might as well look the part.
Guys, I don't really get the manual obsession regarding these specific two cars. Both are track toys, not really road cars. And believe me, at the track you're so busy you wouldn't miss the "manual" engagement.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 10:33:59 AM
Guys, I don't really get the manual obsession regarding these specific two cars. Both are track toys, not really road cars. And believe me, at the track you're so busy you wouldn't miss the "manual" engagement.
:fogey:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 10:33:59 AM
Guys, I don't really get the manual obsession regarding these specific two cars. Both are track toys, not really road cars. And believe me, at the track you're so busy you wouldn't miss the "manual" engagement.
That's why in reality, I wouldn't have either. But you asked us to choose...
I'd rather be "busier" on the track, honing my downshifting and heel-toe skills. A Shelby Cobra tracked at 7/10ths is more entertaining and involving than tracking a PDK exotic at 9/10ths, IMHO.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 09:51:49 AM
The Rustang looks better than either :mask:
Lies!!!! :nono:
Quote from: shp4man on February 21, 2018, 07:48:12 AM
Think I'd go with the Porsche. Maybe in a more conservative color scheme. Ferrari is just too exoticar/Beverly Hills/can't park it a Walmart for me. :lol:
Take your Pickup to Wally World!
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 10:33:59 AM
Guys, I don't really get the manual obsession regarding these specific two cars. Both are track toys, not really road cars. And believe me, at the track you're so busy you wouldn't miss the "manual" engagement.
:hesaid:
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:07:07 AM
I'd rather be "busier" on the track, honing my downshifting and heel-toe skills. A Shelby Cobra tracked at 7/10ths is more entertaining and involving than tracking a PDK exotic at 9/10ths, IMHO.
I can't agree with that. These cars are so fast and handle turns so well that no way in hell a Cobra manual can compensate by being simply manual.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:09:50 AM
I can't agree with that. These cars are so fast and handle turns so well that no way in hell a Cobra manual can compensate by being simply manual.
A Cobra isn't going to match a PDK exotic at the track... not what I meant. I'd enjoy the experience more driving a manual at 7/10ths at the track, than steering an automatic around the track at 9/10ths. To each their own.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 10:25:02 AM
I'd feel like a douche spending that much on my "dream car" and not getting a manual. Might as well look the part.
:lol:
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:18:42 AM
A Cobra isn't going to match a PDK exotic at the track... not what I meant. I'd enjoy the experience more driving a manual at 7/10ths at the track, than steering an automatic around the track at 9/10ths. To each their own.
I know. I did mean the experience not the outright speed. The thrill of a car of this level at the track is many steps above most anything else. I've had the chance to drive a few Ferraris and Porsche GT PDK cars at the track, all with some sort of auto gearbox. Believe me, I didn't miss the engagement of my 1M's manual one little bit.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 10:33:59 AM
Guys, I don't really get the manual obsession regarding these specific two cars. Both are track toys, not really road cars. And believe me, at the track you're so busy you wouldn't miss the "manual" engagement.
Blah blah blah. Marketing claptrap.
I'm not a race driver. I'm too old, I'll never be one. The 0.01 seconds saved per shift don't mean shit to me.
Let's just say me, you and another guy were at a track for a fun track day, and we got to choose between the Ferrari, the Porsche, and a manual 1966 Shelby Cobra, and I got to choose first, you'd be a happy man. If it were a race to the death, I'd take the Ferrari.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:24:28 AM
Let's just say me, you and another guy were at a track for a fun track day, and we got to choose between the Ferrari, the Porsche, and a manual 1966 Shelby Cobra, and I got to choose first, you'd be a happy man. If it were a race to the death, I'd take the Ferrari.
:cheers:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:22:16 AM
I know. I did mean the experience not the outright speed. The thrill of a car of this level at the track is many steps above most anything else. I've had the chance to drive a few Ferraris and Porsche GT PDK cars at the track, all with some sort of auto gearbox. Believe me, I didn't miss the engagement of my 1M's manual one little bit.
Really? Because when I drove an automatic Ferrari on a track, I did miss it.
Seriously, in an actual road course race with professional drivers, which one would win? I thought Ferraris were just pseudo race cars these days. :muffin: :popcorn:
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:23:26 AM
Blah blah blah. Marketing claptrap.
I'm not a race driver. I'm too old, I'll never be one. The 0.01 seconds saved per shift don't mean shit to me.
It's not the performance. It's the mental bandwidth that is freed up and that you can use to enjoy MORE the other aspects of the car, like the handling, balance, throttle response, etc. There's only so much your brain can do and in a track scenario those other areas of focus are more enjoyable than moving the lever and pressing the clutch.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:27:00 AM
Really? Because when I drove an automatic Ferrari on a track, I did miss it.
You're too slow then. :evildude:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:27:27 AM
It's not the performance. It's the mental bandwidth that is freed up and that you can use to enjoy MORE the other aspects of the car, like the handling, balance, throttle response, etc. There's only so much your brain can do and in a track scenario those other areas of focus are more enjoyable than moving the lever and pressing the clutch.
What gear you're in is kind of one of the essential aspects of driving.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:28:28 AM
What gear you're in is kind of one of the essential aspects of driving.
The PDK type gearboxes in these cars let you choose and hold a gear. They are not your father's tiptronics.
Quote from: shp4man on February 21, 2018, 11:27:26 AM
Seriously, in an actual road course race with professional drivers, which one would win? I thought Ferraris were just pseudo race cars these days. :muffin: :popcorn:
Probably the Porsche.
The Huracan is crazy fast nowadays - I'd be interested to see how the Porsche & Ferrari stack up against the Lambo and a Corvette ZR-1.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:28:00 AM
You're too slow then. :evildude:
Well, I did get timed out multiple times because I was getting too close to the slow ass Gallardos on the track and they didn't allow overtaking.
I admit that it was kind of nice, not having to worry about shifting. It was kind of like driving a CR-V, but without a good cup holder. I can see why you like it. :devil:
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:27:00 AM
Really? Because when I drove an automatic Ferrari on a track, I did miss it.
We have established that you have weird automotive hangups. When I drove an auto Ferrari at the track, I did not. The "missing" 3rd pedal did not even cross my mind. Nor did it cross my mind when I drove the GT-R on the same day. A stick would not have added anything to either car, for me at least.
Seems odd to ignore 95% of a great car because 5% of it isn't to your liking. Especially when that 5% doesn't interfere with the task at hand (driving fast). If you don't care about lap times or pushing the limits why go to the track at all? Seems strange.
What's the point of a tachometer in a car that shifts itself? Don't understand that one. I also like using aural cues to change gears. It's part of what you lose in the track experience with an auto.
Edit: a fully auto car, not a flappy pedal one where I guess a tach is still somewhat useful.
Just use the idiot light!
if (rpm > 2000)
PLZ_UPSHIFT()
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:32:50 AM
Well, I did get timed out multiple times because I was getting too close to the slow ass Gallardos on the track and they didn't allow overtaking.
I admit that it was kind of nice, not having to worry about shifting. It was kind of like driving a CR-V, but without a good cup holder. I can see why you like it. :devil:
That only tells me the Gallardo drivers were slowerer.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
What's the point of a tachometer in a car that shifts itself? Don't understand that one. I also like using aural cues to change gears. It's part of what you lose in the track experience with an auto.
Edit: a fully auto car, not a flappy pedal one where I guess a tach is still somewhat useful.
These cars will hold a gear and bounce on the rev limiter. At least in their "track" modes they do.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
What's the point of a tachometer in a car that shifts itself? Don't understand that one. I also like using aural cues to change gears. It's part of what you lose in the track experience with an auto.
You can still change gears with auto. There's just no clutch pedal :huh: Plus if you like shifting by ear you don't need a tach in a manual car either. Good luck shifting a GT3 by ear. I hope you have an extra engine (or 8) handy :lol:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:29:36 AM
The PDK type gearboxes in these cars let you choose and hold a gear. They are not your father's tiptronics.
Nothing like going into a corner in fifth and then having to cycle through to 2nd to exit instead of going right to it.
Fast and furious trackday specials:
(https://i.giphy.com/media/xT5LMIXaeZCz2itAnC/200_d.gif)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 11:33:31 AM
We have established that you have weird automotive hangups. When I drove an auto Ferrari at the track, I did not. The "missing" 3rd pedal did not even cross my mind. Nor did it cross my mind when I drove the GT-R on the same day. A stick would not have added anything to either car, for me at least.
Seems odd to ignore 95% of a great car because 5% of it isn't to your liking. Especially when that 5% doesn't interfere with the task at hand (driving fast). If you don't care about lap times or pushing the limits why go to the track at all? Seems strange.
I hate Brussels sprouts. If I'm at a restaurant that has a dish that seems 95% delicious, but has sprouts that I can't remove, I'm not going to order it.
I'm also not going to apologize for or justify my personal preference.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
Nothing like going into a corner in fifth and then having to cycle through to 2nd to exit instead of going right to it.
IMO in a manual car proper technique would have you heel and toeing through the gears downward as you slow down while braking for the corner, not skipping all gears.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 21, 2018, 11:45:09 AM
IMO in a manual car proper technique would have you heel and toeing through the gears downward as you slow down while braking for the corner, not skipping all gears.
Why would you do that? You'd be accelerating while braking.
Quote from: Raza on February 21, 2018, 12:02:14 PM
Why would you do that? You'd be accelerating while braking.
That's the secret to winning - go faster even while going slower.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 21, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
What's the point of a tachometer in a car that shifts itself? Don't understand that one. I also like using aural cues to change gears. It's part of what you lose in the track experience with an auto.
Edit: a fully auto car, not a flappy pedal one where I guess a tach is still somewhat useful.
I don't really have an answer for that, but I like having a tach on automatics. It's nice to have visual representation of what your engine is doing, just like any other standard gauge. Especially if I'm manually shifting my automatic (for whatever reason...downhill, off road, etc).
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 21, 2018, 12:05:06 PM
I don't really have an answer for that, but I like having a tach on automatics. It's nice to have visual representation of what your engine is doing, just like any other standard gauge. Especially if I'm manually shifting my automatic (for whatever reason...downhill, off road, etc).
+1 I need a tach no matter what.
I also base highway cruising speed off the tach. Don't like to spin the engine at high rpm for extended periods.
Raza have you driven a manual car at the track? A downshift from 5th to 2nd at speed = a blown engine.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 05:16:51 AM
Raza have you driven a manual car at the track? A downshift from 5th to 2nd at speed = a blown engine.
I'm not sure your point. Yeah, if you fuck something up, bad things happen. I'm not saying accelerate to 120mph and then shift into 2nd immediately. I'm talking about exiting a 2nd gear corner.
Quote from: Raza on February 22, 2018, 11:19:17 AM
I'm not sure your point. Yeah, if you fuck something up, bad things happen. I'm not saying accelerate to 120mph and then shift into 2nd immediately. I'm talking about exiting a 2nd gear corner.
MCM was talking about track driving, in which case you would be at triple digit speeds in 5th.
It's also interesting that the extra time spent shifting manuals doesn't matter, but the extra time going through each gear on an automatic does. (Never mind the fact that many autos drop to the lowest gear if you hold the paddle.) :hmm: I believe that's what's called a "double standard"
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
MCM was talking about track driving, in which case you would be at triple digit speeds in 5th.
You brake for the corner, engine revs drop, and you shift from 5th to 2nd to accelerate out. :huh:
A good racer is gonna rev-match downshift through all the gears anyway.
Skipping gears is really only semi-useful on the street.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 22, 2018, 12:24:40 PM
A good racer is gonna rev-match downshift through all the gears anyway.
Skipping gears is really only semi-useful on the street.
Ideally, but not always practical, like when you're making a passing move at the end of a straight. Hard brake, skip down a few gears, hard accelerate out.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 22, 2018, 12:19:55 PM
You brake for the corner, engine revs drop, and you shift from 5th to 2nd to accelerate out. :huh:
No rev match? That sounds agonizingly slow for the street, let alone the track.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 22, 2018, 12:31:40 PM
Ideally, but not always practical, like when you're making a passing move at the end of a straight. Hard brake, skip down a few gears, hard accelerate out.
If I'm lining up to get drive after a pass on the brakes I want to keep the engine spinning. Going from 5th to 2nd = waiting for road speed to come down to where it's safe enough to let the clutch out. That = slooooowwwwwww
Admittedly my auto car + sequential boxes on my motorcycle + in Forza have probably immunized me to skip shifting, but even outside of that it's strange that folks who love shifting would skip the opportunity to :hmm:
I don't think it's wrong to prefer manuals as a matter of taste but there are really no objective upsides at this stage of the tech.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 12:57:17 PM
No rev match? That sounds agonizingly slow for the street, let alone the track.
If I'm lining up to get drive after a pass on the brakes I want to keep the engine spinning. Going from 5th to 2nd = waiting for road speed to come down to where it's safe enough to let the clutch out. That = slooooowwwwwww
Admittedly my auto car + sequential boxes on my motorcycle + in Forza have probably immunized me to skip shifting, but even outside of that it's strange that folks who love shifting would skip the opportunity to :hmm:
I don't think it's wrong to prefer manuals as a matter of taste but there are really no objective upsides at this stage of the tech.
The point was we weren't implying a drop from 5th to 2nd at 156 mph. As for objective upside, there's one... driving involvement.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 22, 2018, 12:24:40 PM
A good racer is gonna rev-match downshift through all the gears anyway.
Skipping gears is really only semi-useful on the street.
:hesaid:
Quote from: Rockraven on February 22, 2018, 01:01:34 PM
The point was we weren't implying a drop from 5th to 2nd at 156 mph. As for objective upside, there's one... driving involvement.
Manual shifting is so second nature to me I almost don't find it any more engaging than an auto in manual mode. I think I said before I guess it depends on if you focus on the result or the process. I don't really care about the process... I need the engine at the right revs to get out of the corner, regardless of how I have to get there.
I'll take the GT3 RS.
The closest I've gotten to these cars is a Ferrari F430 scuderia on a track and a 991 GT3 on a track. I liked the GT3 a lot more.
Quote from: MrH on February 22, 2018, 06:29:40 PM
I'll take the GT3 RS.
The closest I've gotten to these cars is a Ferrari F430 scuderia on a track and a 991 GT3 on a track. I liked the GT3 a lot more.
Really? Different strokes I guess. I'd take an old F360 Challenge Stradale over even a modern GT3.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
MCM was talking about track driving, in which case you would be at triple digit speeds in 5th.
Yeah, but you don't shift from 5th into 2nd while still accelerating in 5th. That's basic.
Quote
It's also interesting that the extra time spent shifting manuals doesn't matter, but the extra time going through each gear on an automatic does. (Never mind the fact that many autos drop to the lowest gear if you hold the paddle.) :hmm: I believe that's what's called a "double standard"
Again, you're jumping to conclusions. When did I talk about time spent tapping your paddles? I was talking more about the annoyance of not getting the gear you want when you want it. No double standard. Try having a conversation instead of an argument.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 22, 2018, 12:24:40 PM
A good racer is gonna rev-match downshift through all the gears anyway.
Skipping gears is really only semi-useful on the street.
Why?
Rev matching during braking seems like a waste of time. Maybe it works out fine in an automatic which does everything for you, but if you're not matching your revs perfectly you're literally accelerating while you're braking, which extends your brake distance. If the point of racing is to accelerate as much as the track will allow to go faster, that means you should brake for as little time as possible. I understand that people do it, I just don't see the point, especially in a manual. Sure, if you have a computer doing everything for you, have at it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 12:57:17 PM
No rev match? That sounds agonizingly slow for the street, let alone the track.
If I'm lining up to get drive after a pass on the brakes I want to keep the engine spinning. Going from 5th to 2nd = waiting for road speed to come down to where it's safe enough to let the clutch out. That = slooooowwwwwww
Admittedly my auto car + sequential boxes on my motorcycle + in Forza have probably immunized me to skip shifting, but even outside of that it's strange that folks who love shifting would skip the opportunity to :hmm:
I don't think it's wrong to prefer manuals as a matter of taste but there are really no objective upsides at this stage of the tech.
I never once said that manuals are better for the track or that there's an objective reason to choose a manual over an automatic. All I ever said is that I prefer it. Why that bothers you so much, I don't understand.
Also, in my scenario that you've apparently built up in your head as this whole thing says you didn't understand a thing about what I said. What are you even talking about "waiting for road speed for 2nd"? You're braking into a corner, not letting off the gas and coasting. Of you match your revs when you shift down to exit the corner. What are you talking about?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 22, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
Manual shifting is so second nature to me I almost don't find it any more engaging than an auto in manual mode. I think I said before I guess it depends on if you focus on the result or the process. I don't really care about the process... I need the engine at the right revs to get out of the corner, regardless of how I have to get there.
That says to me you never really liked driving manual. That's not a value judgment. I'm just saying if you don't see a difference then you never really cared for it enough to notice.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 22, 2018, 06:53:40 PM
Really? Different strokes I guess. I'd take an old F360 Challenge Stradale over even a modern GT3.
I really like how 911s drive. The whole rear engine experience is a bit different.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but I was kind of underwhelmed with the scuderia. Handling dynamics were just like the brz cranked to 11. It wasn't totally different though. Steering feel, turn in, overall grip, all felt similar, just turned up a bit. Of course, engine was from a different planet and the mid engine balance is different. Mid engine cars at the limit are a bit scary to me.