Tesla

[MrH]

That's the bar now?  Has to pass r0tor's gut feeling that it's better than most drivers when they're in an unfamiliar area?

[Morris Minor]

So much craziness...

https://youtu.be/9ARiJSGvfwwg

I'd say it drives at the level I did for the first two or three months after passing my driving test: inexperienced, over-hesitant in some scenarios, over-aggressive in others, slow to judge situations, sometimes misjudging them.

For comparison, here's a vid released by Zoox, who are working on a robotaxi. They're now a subsidiary of Amazon.
https://youtu.be/JAHva2-x1wg

[r0tor]

Pretty impressive... Not nearly as complicated of a route the Tesla was on though

[Morris Minor]

For me - the autonomy thing is the least interesting aspect of Tesla. I'm intrigued by their battery tech, drivetrains, first-principles thinking, & the high-stakes willingness to try new stuff, & learn on the fly.
I'm unchanged in my opinion that they made a huge mistake in building a factory within the borders of the EU.... compounded by choosing Germany... compounded again by choosing the state of Brandenburg.

More on Germany's regulatory shitshow. Honestly, as pointed out in the video, an instructive example was already on their doorstep, under their noses: the fuckup that was building the new airport on the old Schönefeld site.
https://youtu.be/79gQuEeqIQE

[CaminoRacer]

https://thedriven.io/2021/07/11/stunning-tesla-drops-price-of-model-3-to-below-60000-in-australia/

Looks like the Chinese-made Model 3 is very price competitive. I wonder how the quality is compared to the ones made in Fremont?

[Morris Minor]

https://thedriven.io/2021/07/11/stunning-tesla-drops-price-of-model-3-to-below-60000-in-australia/

Looks like the Chinese-made Model 3 is very price competitive. I wonder how the quality is compared to the ones made in Fremont?

My prediction on manufacturing quality in descending order:

   
• Shanghai
• Berlin
• Austin
• Fremont

[NomisR]

My prediction on manufacturing quality in descending order:

   
• Shanghai
• Berlin
• Austin
• Fremont

This talk made me curious about this and found this video, it's an interesting watch.

It seems like Fremont cars has improved significantly which seems to be in-line with Sandy Munro's videos.  With the Shanghai car quality and Fremont car quality being fairly similar, one better in some areas, while some better in others. 

https://insideevs.com/news/491682/video-tesla-model-3-made-in-china-vs-us/

[MrH]

Why do you keep referring to Sandy Munro about plant quality?  He literally just rambles on about changes in a fastener or something trivial.  He runs his hand over the paint and proclaims the paint job is better   He's not a decent source for any of this.

[NomisR]

Why do you keep referring to Sandy Munro about plant quality?  He literally just rambles on about changes in a fastener or something trivial.  He runs his hand over the paint and proclaims the paint job is better   He's not a decent source for any of this.

I'm referring to the panel gaps of the 18 models vs 2021 models

[MrH]

A single example of panels gaps being ok doesn't prove anything.  A single example of them being all over the place does.

Sure, they may have dialed in some assembly better, but the body in white tooling isn't getting redone in any substantial way mid cycle.  It's more indicative of a total lack of process control.  That isn't something that gets fixed mid cycle.  It's a breakdown or total lack of company standards and methodology.

I'm sure I can find a single example of a reliable Range Rover too.  That doesn't mean that Range Rover has fixed all their issues.

[Morris Minor]

A single example of panels gaps being ok doesn't prove anything.  A single example of them being all over the place does.

Sure, they may have dialed in some assembly better, but the body in white tooling isn't getting redone in any substantial way mid cycle.  It's more indicative of a total lack of process control.  That isn't something that gets fixed mid cycle.  It's a breakdown or total lack of company standards and methodology.

I'm sure I can find a single example of a reliable Range Rover too.  That doesn't mean that Range Rover has fixed all their issues.

They are constantly changing stuff mid-cycle. I think your red-haze loathing of Musk blinds you to anything good they do. Hey, even Trump is right on some things. 

[Morris Minor]

Another Tesla side hustle.  I believe they have a ton of back orders for Powerwalls. But this is a neat idea.
https://electrek.co/2021/07/16/tesla-launches-virtual-power-plant-powerwalls-help-california-grid/

[MrH]

Of all people to drink the Tesla kool aid, I never expected you to be one of them.

[FoMoJo]

Musk has done a remarkable job of staying atop the tsunami.  He is unorthodox and confuses the striated patterns of the conservative mind.  However, as in the case of his mentor designate, he may yet crash and burn and die penniless.

[MrH]

Yes.  Fraud "confuses" many people.

[Morris Minor]

Of all people to drink the Tesla kool aid, I never expected you to be one of them.

So you're saying it's a bad idea?

[FoMoJo]

Yes.  Fraud "confuses" many people.

That can be said of many acts/enterprises perpetrated under the guise of capitalism.  Very few are prosecuted.

[GoCougs]

So EVs are not economically viable for either 95+% of WtP or 100% of the companies that sell them, how can something like this PowerWall be any different? At least for EVs, automakers are taking these huge losses in the hopes that the hegemonic cocktail of regulation and subsidy vomit forth some sort of corporatist viability, but what is the path for PowerWall-like thingies, esp. considering the disparate nature of utilities (i.e., said cocktail would need to be near infinite in variation)?

[r0tor]

Because solar+powerwalls has a decent payback, makes you feel like you are doing something for the environment, AND makes you mostly isolated from failures on the power grid?

[Laconian]

True freedom is the freedom to annoy the neighbors with your two stroke generator.

[Morris Minor]

This stuff - Teslas, other EVs, solar storage for propping up base loads - make up the playthings of the wealthy at present. Just like automobiles were in the early years of the 20th Century. It will all percolate downwards.

[MrH]

So EVs are not economically viable for either 95+% of WtP or 100% of the companies that sell them, how can something like this PowerWall be any different? At least for EVs, automakers are taking these huge losses in the hopes that the hegemonic cocktail of regulation and subsidy vomit forth some sort of corporatist viability, but what is the path for PowerWall-like thingies, esp. considering the disparate nature of utilities (i.e., said cocktail would need to be near infinite in variation)?

I think Ford largely killed the idea of the Powerwall   The F150 Lightning does everything the powerwall does and includes it in the car.

[GoCougs]

Because solar+powerwalls has a decent payback, makes you feel like you are doing something for the environment, AND makes you mostly isolated from failures on the power grid?

lol no. SFH solar + PW install literally has no payback (or, an average like 20 years = no payback). Solar has never been economically viable and Tesla doesn't rewrite that math.

Wanna do something for the environment? As instructed, that's mostly solved on the demand side - stop buy gas hog SUVs, stop building a home, stop owning too many cars, stop buying too many things, etc., etc.

[SJ_GTI]

...stop owning too many cars...

Go back to Cuba you communist!!!! 

[NomisR]

lol no. SFH solar + PW install literally has no payback (or, an average like 20 years = no payback). Solar has never been economically viable and Tesla doesn't rewrite that math.

Wanna do something for the environment? As instructed, that's mostly solved on the demand side - stop buy gas hog SUVs, stop building a home, stop owning too many cars, stop buying too many things, etc., etc.

I guess it depends on where you live and the price of your utility.  But you're right for most of the country, you will likely never recoup or get a good ROI because either it doesn't generate enough power or the electric prices are so low that it's not worth it.  Sadly the case for me in California, it likely is.. since ROI i've calculated is around 7-8 years, and you're looking at 10 years of life for the solar panels before the power generated goes down significantly... it may be a better deal than most.

[NomisR]

So you're saying it's a bad idea?

For the individual home owners, i'm not sure that's such a great idea because you're just speeding up the degradation of your power wall by providing energy to to the grid via your own packs.

[MrH]

The amount of batteries required to match the variable output of supply of renewables and the variable demand on the grid is so silly.  It doesn't make any sense at all.

[CaminoRacer]

Definitely doesn't make sense to have powerwalls everywhere. Either a hydro battery or compressed air battery would make more sense.

Supplementing renewables with nuclear is the best option IMO

[afty]

I guess it depends on where you live and the price of your utility.  But you're right for most of the country, you will likely never recoup or get a good ROI because either it doesn't generate enough power or the electric prices are so low that it's not worth it.  Sadly the case for me in California, it likely is.. since ROI i've calculated is around 7-8 years, and you're looking at 10 years of life for the solar panels before the power generated goes down significantly... it may be a better deal than most.

Yeah, payback here in my part of CA is only 5-7 years.  Plenty of sunshine year-around and high electric rates will do that.  I'm looking at getting solar so have been running the numbers recently.  My understanding is that production doesn't decrease all that much until year ~25 or so either; a typical performance warranty for panels is for 90% rated production at 10 years and 80% at 25.

[MrH]

Definitely doesn't make sense to have powerwalls everywhere. Either a hydro battery or compressed air battery would make more sense.

Supplementing renewables with nuclear is the best option IMO

Yeah, you need some sort of steady supply to supplement.  You can't have the massive amount of variation of just renewables, along with the massive amount of demand variation.  It's just too much of a delta.  You would need an insane amount of batteries, and a HUGE amount of excess capacity on the renewable side to handle the peaks and valleys.