If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.

Started by GoCougs, February 06, 2019, 11:41:57 PM

GoCougs

Quote from: RomanChariot on February 08, 2019, 09:20:43 AM
Yes, the EcoBoost motor is more complicated but the turbo does have advantages in high elevations like where I live. The biggest advantage that the Ford EcoBoost would have for me right now is availability. You can't get the 6.2L engine in a Silverado without stepping up to at least a $50,000 LTZ model. Ford will put the EcoBoost in a $45,000 Lariat. The 5.3L Chevy engine is a good power plant but I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing that GM would make the 6.2L available further down their lineup.

I agree it's a bit puzzling why Chevy restricts the 6.2L to the highest trim vehicles - buy you can always be used, too ;).

RomanChariot

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2019, 02:58:25 PM
I agree it's a bit puzzling why Chevy restricts the 6.2L to the highest trim vehicles - buy you can always be used, too ;).

I always buy used. The problem is that since it is only in the top trims, there is not much selection on the used market.

AutobahnSHO

Ford just wants to confuse buyers in the showroom more.



Been working this long so.....
Will

GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on February 08, 2019, 08:18:57 AM
Ford's current consumer truck/SUV (excluding crossovers) engine lineup up.  There are some additional engines if we go up to their commercial grade vehicles (F450+), but I'm not including those at the moment.

F150
3.3V6 - 290 hp
2.7TTV6 - 325 hp
3.5TTV6 - 375 hp
5.0V8 - 395 hp
3.0 Diesel - 250 hp

F150 Raptor
3.5TTHOV6 - 450 hp

Expedition
3.5TTV6 -375 hp

F250
6.2L SOHC - 385 hp
6.7L Diesel - 450 hp

F350
6.2L SOHC - 385 hp
6.7L Diesel - 450 hp

Lincoln Navigator
3.5TTHOV6 - 450 hp

8 engines (and two of them are just different tunes of the same basic engine).

The new 7.3 is slated for the HD line, which means it might go in an F250 or 350, or may be exclusive to their larger, commercial grade trucks.  Right now, Ford is still using the Triton 6.8 V10 gasser in their larger (F650+) commercial vehicles.  The 7.3 may be a replacement for that aging (debuted in the mid 90s) motor rather than an option for their higher volume, "consumer" level trucks.

Now let's look at GM
Silverado/Sierra 1500
2.7T I4 - 310 hp
4.3V6 - 285 hp
5.3V8 - 355 hp
5.3V8DFM - 355 hp w/ Dynamic Fuel Management
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Silverado/Sierra 2500
6.0V8 - 360 hp
6.6 Diesel - 445 hp

Silverado/Sierra 3500
6.0V8 - 360 hp
6.6 Diesel - 445 hp

Tahoe/Yukon
5.3V8 - 355 hp
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Suburban/Yukon XL
5.3V8 - 355 hp
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Escalade
6.2V8 - 420 hp

That's 7 different engine configurations (with 2 being subtle variations of the same thing).  As memory serves, GM was working on a diesel option for their half-ton models for 2019 or 2020, which would put them at 8.  Same as Ford.  Unless the new 7.3 goes into consumer grade trucks, then Ford will still have one additional engine configuration.

Going a bit too deep IMO. If we ignore variants and base motors that no one cares about, and concern ourselves through the 2020 MY, we see the lack of focus is actually worse for Ford than prescribed in the original post:

Ford:
V6TT Ecoboost
V8 2-valve SOHC Boss
V8 4-valve DOHC Coyote
V8 pooprod Godzilla

GM:
V8 Gen V pooprod

I'm guessing that Ford's product development is very silo'd. To create internal competition maybe? I'm not sure sure. But the end result isn't helping.

MX793

Except pooprod Godzilla may be a replacement for the old V10 in the F650+ and never be used in the F250/F350.

And the 6L in the HD Chevies is a GenIV.  If you left it out because it was a "base motor", you can take the Ford Boss engine off because that's also a base engine.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Eye of the Tiger

Is Godzilla the actual name? I can't find it when I Google "pooprod godzilla".
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

MX793

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 09, 2019, 07:33:50 AM
Is Godzilla the actual name? I can't find it when I Google "pooprod godzilla".

Did you try "Pooplod Gojira"?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2019, 07:39:01 AM
Did you try "Pooplod Gojira"?

I have tried many Gojiras, but that one only got two Google results. Is that a secret hidden bonus track?
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2019, 07:16:26 AM
Except pooprod Godzilla may be a replacement for the old V10 in the F650+ and never be used in the F250/F350.

And the 6L in the HD Chevies is a GenIV.  If you left it out because it was a "base motor", you can take the Ford Boss engine off because that's also a base engine.

Note my premise ("concern ourselves through the 2020 MY") - the 6.0L is gone, replaced by the Gen V 6.6L.

The Godzilla pooprod, by reports, will be used in retail Super Duties (F250 and F350) as an upgrade from the 6.2L Boss, and in the 2020 F150 Raptor.

GM has one engine V8 platform for full size (retail) trucks and SUVs, and in response Ford has four disparate platforms.

shp4man

"Dude, nice truck! What engine are you runnin'?"

Godzilla pooprod" 

"Nice!"


:lol: :muffin:

FoMoJo

Quote from: shp4man on February 09, 2019, 08:49:07 AM
"Dude, nice truck! What engine are you runnin'?"

Godzilla pooprod" 

"Nice!"


:lol: :muffin:
A Clydesdale amongst the Thoroughbreds.  Ford is enhancing their Commercial trade. 
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on February 09, 2019, 08:24:49 AM
Note my premise ("concern ourselves through the 2020 MY") - the 6.0L is gone, replaced by the Gen V 6.6L.

The Godzilla pooprod, by reports, will be used in retail Super Duties (F250 and F350) as an upgrade from the 6.2L Boss, and in the 2020 F150 Raptor.

GM has one engine V8 platform for full size (retail) trucks and SUVs, and in response Ford has four disparate platforms.

"Through" mean "up to", not "from and beyond".  "Through" 2020, the 6.0 continues to be sold.

It's also possible that beyond 2020, the 6.2 Boss V8 goes away in favor of the new 7.3.  Seeing as the 7.3 is in response to GM's more potent 6.6L for their HD trucks (to replace the aging gen IV 6.0 currently sold).  Which means that the 7.3 would actually be a consolidation, replacing the 6.2 in the retail HD trucks and replacing the 6.8V10 in the commercial line.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

CaminoRacer

Cougs is right though. GM has been developing a single engine line while Ford is scatterbrained and doesn't seem to know what they want.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MX793

Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 09, 2019, 12:09:43 PM
Cougs is right though. GM has been developing a single engine line while Ford is scatterbrained and doesn't seem to know what they want.

Of course, GM has the 2.7 I4 turbo and 4.3 V6 that are unique to their half ton pickups.  And the now defunct Atlas engines.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

CaminoRacer

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2019, 12:28:02 PM
Of course, GM has the 2.7 I4 turbo and 4.3 V6 that are unique to their half ton pickups.  And the now defunct Atlas engines.

Of course. But talking V8s only, Ford doesn't seem to know what they're doing. A little bit of everything. Shotgun shell approach.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

GoCougs

It can't continue. Perhaps Ford is gearing up to dump Ecoboost.

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 09, 2019, 12:42:54 PM
Of course. But talking V8s only, Ford doesn't seem to know what they're doing. A little bit of everything. Shotgun shell approach.
Yup! From day one Fords Turbo motors never provided an advantage (especially MPG) over the Chevy and Dodge V8s. I knew all this Eco Boost crap was gonna back fire. It was only a matter of time!
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

FoMoJo

Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 09, 2019, 12:42:54 PM
Of course. But talking V8s only, Ford doesn't seem to know what they're doing. A little bit of everything. Shotgun shell approach.
Of course, seeing that it's taken 65 years to get their SMC developed into a reasonably competent engine, GM may have been a bit reluctant to try something new.  The old FE series was everything it took GM until the 90s to come close to.  Ford has always involved themselves in various engine development from the DFV to the Voodoo and Preadator.  Godzilla is an appropriate name for their new commercial truck engine. ;)
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

FoMoJo

Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 09, 2019, 02:06:51 PM
Yup! From day one Fords Turbo motors never provided an advantage (especially MPG) over the Chevy and Dodge V8s. I knew all this Eco Boost crap was gonna back fire. It was only a matter of time!
Odd that GM, and most other manufacturers, went the same route. :huh:
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 09, 2019, 02:06:51 PM
Yup! From day one Fords Turbo motors never provided an advantage (especially MPG) over the Chevy and Dodge V8s. I knew all this Eco Boost crap was gonna back fire. It was only a matter of time!

The 2.7TT has been shown to best the 5.3 Chevy in performance and real world fuel economy.  The 3.5 is much better than the old Triton V8s on all fronts (power, performance, fuel economy), but does lag the big Chevy.

The Dodge Hemis aren't exactly known for being thrifty.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

GoCougs

Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 09, 2019, 12:42:54 PM
Of course. But talking V8s only, Ford doesn't seem to know what they're doing. A little bit of everything. Shotgun shell approach.

Some bright spots here and there but by and large Ford has struggled since the '50s with unfocused engine development, resulting in usually coming in second (usually behind Chevy).

Ford has been here before at least twice - Windsor/Cleveland/Modified and FE/385 in the '60s/'70s and Modular 2-valve SOHC/3-valve SOHC/4-valve DOHC V8 and SOHC V10 n the '90s/2000s.

Perhaps the pooprod Godzilla will become the boilerplate replacement (i.e., focus) for the Coyote and Ecoboost, at least in full-size trucks and SUVs.

FoMoJo

Quote from: GoCougs on February 09, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Some bright spots here and there but by and large Ford has struggled since the '50s with unfocused engine development, resulting in usually coming in second (usually behind Chevy).

Ford has been here before at least twice - Windsor/Cleveland/Modified and FE/385 in the '60s/'70s and Modular 2-valve SOHC/3-valve SOHC/4-valve DOHC V8 and SOHC V10 n the '90s/2000s.

Perhaps the pooprod Godzilla will become the boilerplate replacement (i.e., focus) for the Coyote and Ecoboost, at least in full-size trucks and SUVs.
:lol:

The FE, in all of its variations from durable truck engine to superior race engine was the class of the 50s and 60s insomuch as they wouldn't even let it race in NASCAR because the competition had nothing to compete with it.  It was, essential, a medium block, but still bested the big blocks of the competitors. The Windsor, of course, was just a much better version of the SBC of the time, lighter, more compact, better racing potential...and many more trophies.  The Windsor block/Cleveland heads of the Boss was best of all.  The 335 Cleveland series, came a bit late in the game, but while it lived, it was the small/medium block to beat.  The 385 series, once again late in the muscle era, of course, lived on, but in much lesser form; as did all engines after 1970.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Gotta-Qik-C7

2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2019, 02:18:59 PM
The 2.7TT has been shown to best the 5.3 Chevy in performance and real world fuel economy.  The 3.5 is much better than the old Triton V8s on all fronts (power, performance, fuel economy), but does lag the big Chevy.

The Dodge Hemis aren't exactly known for being thrifty.
Agreed.
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

GoCougs

Curiously, the Ram has been cleaning house with 2019 awards, besting both Ford and Chevy in any comparison test I've seen. Ram has been doing class average for MPG.

This from a big test by C&D of MY2019 trucks. Ram 5.7L finishes second in MPG (but won the test). F-150, true to form, finishes last in MPG (but is the quickest what with the $15k higher base price (450 hp motor, lower gearing than the Chevy)): 2019 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 High Country vs. 2019 Ford F-150 Limited vs. 2019 Ram 1500 Limited.

GoCougs

Another interesting test. This is at extreme elevation (ends at 10,000'), so though the trucks had the same time, the Ecoboost was reported to be punchier. Again, true to form, the Ecoboost got worse MPG. In this test, it was 2-1 in favor of the 5.0L: 

You Asked For It! Ford F-150 V8 and EcoBoost V6 Take On The World's Toughest Towing Test.


Same channel did some drag racing between the two at near sea level, and it was a tie:

2018 Ford F150 3.5L Ecoboost vs 5.0L V8 Coyote Drag Race.

FoMoJo

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2019, 02:16:22 PM
Another interesting test. This is at extreme elevation (ends at 10,000'), so though the trucks had the same time, the Ecoboost was reported to be punchier. Again, true to form, the Ecoboost got worse MPG. In this test, it was 2-1 in favor of the 5.0L: 

You Asked For It! Ford F-150 V8 and EcoBoost V6 Take On The World's Toughest Towing Test.


Same channel did some drag racing between the two at near sea level, and it was a tie:

2018 Ford F150 3.5L Ecoboost vs 5.0L V8 Coyote Drag Race.
No doubt the Coyote is a great engine, but the 2 who voted for it liked the sound better.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2019, 02:16:22 PM
Another interesting test. This is at extreme elevation (ends at 10,000'), so though the trucks had the same time, the Ecoboost was reported to be punchier. Again, true to form, the Ecoboost got worse MPG. In this test, it was 2-1 in favor of the 5.0L: 

You Asked For It! Ford F-150 V8 and EcoBoost V6 Take On The World's Toughest Towing Test.


Same channel did some drag racing between the two at near sea level, and it was a tie:

2018 Ford F150 3.5L Ecoboost vs 5.0L V8 Coyote Drag Race.

That hill climb test was a 35-60 rolling acceleration and then steady 60 mph cruise for ~7 miles.  Both trucks were able to maintain 60 once up to speed, so the time difference came down to the initial 35-60 acceleration.  The Ecoboost did the full climb in 7:58:xx and the V8 was 8:06:xx  That means there was a ~8 second difference in the initial 25 mph acceleration.  That's pretty significant.  And fuel economy on the hillclimb, well, the one capable of pulling in more air is going to burn the most fuel.  No surprise there.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2019, 02:02:50 PM
Curiously, the Ram has been cleaning house with 2019 awards, besting both Ford and Chevy in any comparison test I've seen. Ram has been doing class average for MPG.

This from a big test by C&D of MY2019 trucks. Ram 5.7L finishes second in MPG (but won the test). F-150, true to form, finishes last in MPG (but is the quickest what with the $15k higher base price (450 hp motor, lower gearing than the Chevy)): 2019 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 High Country vs. 2019 Ford F-150 Limited vs. 2019 Ram 1500 Limited.

1 mpg difference between them.  And the Dodge is both mild hybrid and has cylinder deactivation.  The Ford was far and away the strongest.  In the laden acceleration test, it blew the doors off of the others.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2019, 03:33:09 PM
That hill climb test was a 35-60 rolling acceleration and then steady 60 mph cruise for ~7 miles.  Both trucks were able to maintain 60 once up to speed, so the time difference came down to the initial 35-60 acceleration.  The Ecoboost did the full climb in 7:58:xx and the V8 was 8:06:xx  That means there was a ~8 second difference in the initial 25 mph acceleration.  That's pretty significant.  And fuel economy on the hillclimb, well, the one capable of pulling in more air is going to burn the most fuel.  No surprise there.

Well, if you must. As you know, I'm always here to help when asked.

See the C&D test above. Using the 395 hp Ram as a proxy, which in that test weighed ~500 lbs more and was towing ~1,200 lbs more vs. the F-150, was only 0.8 seconds slower in the 30-50 mph towing test. Also keep in mind that the C&D test was of a $70k F150 with the 450 hp Ecoboost, not the 375 hp F150 used in the video. Sure, the C&D test wasn't at extreme elevation, but the "12-seconds-slower" premise is literally impossible.

The trucks accomplished the same task in the same time and Ecoboost, true to form, got worse mpg.