Honest opinions appreciated. 160k kms = 100k miles.
https://www.autotrader.ca/a/porsche/cayenne/toronto/ontario/5_44448125_on20080130113612898/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&orup=5_15_40&sprx=-2
I think my stance on off-warranty VWAG products is pretty well known (and let's face it, this is really a VW product).
A coworker had a Touareg of about that vintage and started having a lot of problems right around the 100K mark. Problems that were really expensive to fix. In part because VWAG doesn't design their vehicles to be particularly easy to repair so the labor hours are ridiculous. And the parts themselves are often way more expensive than other vehicles (and Porsche will be worse than VW). Like the transmission cooler cracked and needed to be replaced, and when they took it to the dealer, the dealer explained that the massive repair cost quoted was because replacing said cooler required removing the entire front clip. My coworker ended up doing it himself and found a way to do it without nearly as much disassembly, but said it was a really tight squeeze and required bending/flexing some things out of the way that might have broken something if not done very carefully. Seemed like nearly every Monday he was complaining about spending a good chunk of his weekend trying to fix something on the car himself because the dealer quoted some obscene price, and cursing how horrible the thing was to work on because it was not designed with ease of service or repair in mind. Had a seal leaking at the back of the engine or at the transmission that was going to cost more than half what the vehicle was worth to fix (and outside his capability to do at home). Decided to cut bait and run before it got so bad that it had to be fixed and while he was still able to get something in trade for it.
Quote from: MX793 on October 11, 2019, 08:36:56 PM
I think my stance on off-warranty VWAG products is pretty well known (and let's face it, this is really a VW product).
A coworker had a Touareg of about that vintage and started having a lot of problems right around the 100K mark. Problems that were really expensive to fix. In part because VWAG doesn't design their vehicles to be particularly easy to repair so the labor hours are ridiculous. And the parts themselves are often way more expensive than other vehicles (and Porsche will be worse than VW). Like the transmission cooler cracked and needed to be replaced, and when they took it to the dealer, the dealer explained that the massive repair cost quoted was because replacing said cooler required removing the entire front clip. My coworker ended up doing it himself and found a way to do it without nearly as much disassembly, but said it was a really tight squeeze and required bending/flexing some things out of the way that might have broken something if not done very carefully. Seemed like nearly every Monday he was complaining about spending a good chunk of his weekend trying to fix something on the car himself because the dealer quoted some obscene price, and cursing how horrible the thing was to work on because it was not designed with ease of service or repair in mind. Had a seal leaking at the back of the engine or at the transmission that was going to cost more than half what the vehicle was worth to fix (and outside his capability to do at home). Decided to cut bait and run before it got so bad that it had to be fixed and while he was still able to get something in trade for it.
Yeah, but at this price it's really attractive. It's one thing to have a $100,000 SUV fall apart on you, but at $13k and another $2k for a 3 year warranty this would be pretty awesome to own for a few years. If something catastrophic does happen, I'm not in it for much and it'll be easy to cut my losses by reselling it.
So here's the scenario... cash on the hood for a badass luxury SUV to drive like a baller for 2-3 years, $15k maximum. Looking at Range Rovers, Audi Q7, BMW X5. Anything else? No Cadillacs/Lincolns. This 385 hp V8 Cayenne S is the best I found so far.
Infiniti QX80 :ohyeah: It drives smaller than it looks. 400 hp V8. If you think it looks like ass in a bad way, then obviously that's out.
Quote from: veeman on October 12, 2019, 05:35:31 AM
Infiniti QX80 :ohyeah: It drives smaller than it looks. 400 hp V8. If you think it looks like ass in a bad way, then obviously that’s out.
Not a fan, but I did look. The only thing in my budget is the QX56, and at 50% more mileage than the Cayenne.
Sounds like somebody has $93,541 burning a hole in their pocket.
There's a reason why the older used European luxury SUVs are so much cheaper than those from Lexus or Infiniti. They are far less reliable and much more costly to fix. LR has been a permanent fixture at the bottom of the reliability survey ratings. I wouldn't touch anything from VW off of factory warranty. And the X5? I can still vividly remember my academic advisor in engineering school going on a tirade about how his X5 was the most poorly designed and engineered vehicle he'd ever seen. A big part of that was design for maintainability and repair, which seems to be a problem for the Germans. Stuff like having to remove the entire front clip of a vehicle to change an oil cooler (VW) or burying the battery under a bunch of stuff that needs to be removed to do a battery replacement (BMW). In what world is it OK for a battery replacement to take over an hour of labor? Changing a battery should take no more than 15 minutes. Oh, and the hatch to the battery is secured by non-standard screws that require a special tool to discourage DIY (BMW). BMW, especially, seems to go out of their way to force owners to have to go to BMW authorized service centers for anything. And I've become convinced that they just aren't built to last. BMW actually has radiator replacement listed as routine maintenance with a replacement interval of well under 100K miles. How in the hell does a radiator, a chunk of metal with no moving parts, require more frequent replacement than many cars' timing belts?
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 12, 2019, 06:48:13 AM
Sounds like somebody has $93,541 burning a hole in their pocket.
:lol:
No, but I'm allowed one indulgence. I'm selling the Focus and need a 3 season vehicle, and I want to be able to tow. I'll have the Miata, the Cabrio, and maybe a Cayenne, all paid for.
If I went and bought a $60,000 truck, nobody would bat an eye.
Go for it. If the extended warranty covers the expensive parts, it's likely worth it just for the hell of it. Do your own maintenance or they'll rip you off at a dealer.
The only other sporty SUV worth looking at is the F Pace, but they'll still be pretty expensive.
What about a similar vintage Land Cruiser with the 5.7?
Quote from: MX793 on October 12, 2019, 07:12:06 AM
What about a similar vintage Land Cruiser with the 5.7?
Great choice, but the only thing in my budget is much older, rattier, and 300,000+ kms. An LC equivalent to this Cayenne is double the price.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 12, 2019, 07:09:34 AM
Go for it. If the extended warranty covers the expensive parts, it's likely worth it just for the hell of it. Do your own maintenance or they'll rip you off at a dealer.
The only other sporty SUV worth looking at is the F Pace, but they'll still be pretty expensive.
Sent email last night.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 12, 2019, 07:18:35 AM
Great choice, but the only thing in my budget is much older, rattier, and 300,000+ kms. An LC equivalent to this Cayenne is double the price.
And would probably have fewer problems and cost less to run than anything from ze Germans (or LR).
Quote from: MX793 on October 12, 2019, 07:26:28 AM
And would probably have fewer problems and cost less to run than anything from ze Germans (or LR).
No doubt, but... boring.
Get a used crew cab Silverado with V8. MX793 is right.
You won't have to put a Trump/Pence 2020 sticker on it. :muffin:
I was looking at a Cayenne the other day in a parking lot. Big Brembo brakes up front with vented rotors, decent styling, nice interior, nice stance, about the closest UV you're going to get to a sports car.
I would be wary of a car with that many miles, ESPECIALLY a VWAG product.
It might be more cost effective in the long run to simply get a Cayenne with fewer miles. It would almost certainly drive better too.
BMW and a Porsche made the list! :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnvHdaBI8eM&list=LLUx-WW-FSfbzkShUOgpQdvA&index=5&t=0s
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on October 12, 2019, 07:56:12 PM
BMW and a Porsche made the list! :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnvHdaBI8eM&list=LLUx-WW-FSfbzkShUOgpQdvA&index=5&t=0s
WTF is he on???
Since it won't be a primary vehicle, and you're not hurting for ca$h, sounds like fun!
Wouldn't be my first choice, I'd be looking at Tacomas/ Colorados...
What model year Cayenne are you considering? I went back in time to the 2011 model where owners give it high marks, including reliability.
https://www.cars.com/research/porsche-cayenne-2011/consumer-reviews/
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 13, 2019, 02:47:42 AM
What model year Cayenne are you considering? I went back in time to the 2011 model where owners give it high marks, including reliability.
https://www.cars.com/research/porsche-cayenne-2011/consumer-reviews/
A lot of those were written by people who hadn't owned the car very long, or written when the car was new. Here's a telling review (rating from this person was very positive overall) from some who bought the car new and kept it for 7+ years.
QuoteIt was a very reliable car since 2017 when it started to be costly. The car needed parts from here and there from time to time and the computer starting to freak out lately ( June 2018); it shows that oil level is above average while is not, the fog lights are not working while it works, flat tire while is all good. To conclude, I would say it is a great car for the first 5-6 years (depending on the usage), but after that you might be spending up to 20.000 $ in repairs within 2 years (especially if you're living up north).
So I have an appointment set up later in the week to see this Cayenne and look at some others they have. I do take your comment seriously, especially the concerns, and will be asking the questions, reviewing the history, and if I do get it I'll make sure the extra warranty package will be adequate.
I wouldn't trust any German car with air springs past warranty.
Though FWIW, my aunt had a 2005 Touareg that made it to 100k miles with no major mechanical issues (she sold it so I don't know how long that lasted for). My moms old Range Rover (circa 2009) made it to 140k miles with a similarly good mechanical history.
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2019, 04:33:03 AM
A lot of those were written by people who hadn't owned the car very long, or written when the car was new. Here's a telling review (rating from this person was very positive overall) from some who bought the car new and kept it for 7+ years.
Maybe he'll get lucky and the Cayenne he'll buy was built by Japanese workers in Germany... :devil: :tounge:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 13, 2019, 10:20:54 AM
Maybe he'll get lucky and the Cayenne he'll buy was built by Japanese workers in Germany... :devil: :tounge:
I think the Germans can assemble a car just fine. I question the longevity of the parts and materials they use. Like the headliner adhesive on my Jetta (and something I've seen in multiple Jettas of similar age) that simply gave up after 10 years. Or whatever paint/coating material they coated the switchgear with that started to blister or turn sticky/gooey and essentially flow off of the switches. Or the plastic (not rubber) washer fluid lines that got brittle with age, especially when it was cold out, and snapped near the hood hinge (multiple times on my car). Or the rear springs that broke with only 76K miles (a co-worker with a Golf-platform car had the exact same thing happen at similarly low miles). Or the plastic radiators on maybe early 2000s (and possibly later) BMWs that fail after 75K miles because they become brittle and crack/split. And then there's the electronics. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Bosch and Lucas is that the stuff from Bosch will at least work pretty well for the first 4-5 years before going to pot.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2019, 07:21:28 AM
So I have an appointment set up later in the week to see this Cayenne and look at some others they have. I do take your comment seriously, especially the concerns, and will be asking the questions, reviewing the history, and if I do get it I'll make sure the extra warranty package will be adequate.
Doug DeMuro paid $3,700 for a warranty on his used Range Rover. The warranty payout over the car's life was $21,276. You should get that policy. :lol:
(Holy shit Rangies are POSes)
Quote from: Submariner on October 13, 2019, 08:43:59 AM
I wouldn't trust any German car with air springs past warranty.
Though FWIW, my aunt had a 2005 Touareg that made it to 100k miles with no major mechanical issues (she sold it so I don't know how long that lasted for). My moms old Range Rover (circa 2009) made it to 140k miles with a similarly good mechanical history.
Reliability is a bell curve. You can always find anecdotes from people who lucked out on the right hand side of the distribution. On the left hand side you have people like MX793. My friend's used Mini Cooper S put him on a first name basis with the guys at the repair shop. No mechanical issues, but the electrics are awful - a window that forgot how to wind up all the way, sensors failing, failing sensors which sense for the failures of other sensors, TPMS failures.
With an extended warranty and a willingness to accept the occasional week of downtime for repairs it's a no brainer
Quote from: Rockraven on October 12, 2019, 08:20:22 PM
WTF is he on???
That dude shows up in my youtube suggested list constantly and he's literally unwatchable.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 11, 2019, 09:06:31 PM
So here's the scenario... cash on the hood for a badass luxury SUV to drive like a baller for 2-3 years, $15k maximum. Looking at Range Rovers, Audi Q7, BMW X5. Anything else? No Cadillacs/Lincolns. This 385 hp V8 Cayenne S is the best I found so far.
ryanreynoldsbutwhy.gif
This is like the friend zone of Porsche ownership. All the headaches and costs of owning a 10 year old Porsche w/absolutely zero of the upsides. I mean, compared to a Honda Passport, this thing is no faster, ancient in tech, and 40% more thirsty
15K will get you a 996 C4 that's likely had a much better life and actually delivers on the promise the Porsche brand makes
Just my opinion
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 13, 2019, 06:56:11 PM
ryanreynoldsbutwhy.gif
This is like the friend zone of Porsche ownership. All the headaches and costs of owning a 10 year old Porsche w/absolutely zero of the upsides. I mean, compared to a Honda Passport, this thing is no faster, ancient in tech, and 40% more thirsty
15K will get you a 996 C4 that's likely had a much better life and actually delivers on the promise the Porsche brand makes
Just my opinion
Honda Passport? I think you're missing the entire point of this purchase. Why buy a 996 911 when I can get a Civic that has newer tech, is more reliable, and gets better gas mileage?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 13, 2019, 05:27:13 PM
With an extended warranty and a willingness to accept the occasional week of downtime for repairs it's a no brainer
Thank you! I think you get it. :ohyeah:
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2019, 07:23:18 PM
Honda Passport? I think you're missing the entire point of this purchase. Why buy a 996 911 when I can get a Civic that has newer tech, is more reliable, and gets better gas mileage?
I think part of the point was that buying an SUV from Porsche is like going to a 4-star steakhouse and ordering chicken.
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2019, 07:28:49 PM
I think part of the point was that buying an SUV from Porsche is like going to a 4-star steakhouse and ordering chicken.
:lol:
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2019, 07:28:49 PM
I think part of the point was that buying an SUV from Porsche is like going to a 4-star steakhouse and ordering chicken.
Is that the same for a Bentley Bentayga, Rolls Cullinan, and Lambo Urus? Do we throw in the Merc and BMW SUVs as poseurs as well? Jaguar and Volvo too?
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2019, 07:34:30 PM
Is that the same for a Bentley Bentayga, Rolls Cullinan, and Lambo Urus? Do we throw in the Merc and BMW SUVs as poseurs as well? Jaguar and Volvo too?
Lambo - Yes
Bentley, Rolls, BMW, Jag, Volvo and Merc - No.
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2019, 08:22:13 PM
Lambo - Yes
Bentley, Rolls, BMW, Jag, Volvo and Merc - No.
Lambo actually has legit SUV history with the LM002.
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2019, 10:38:51 AM
I think the Germans can assemble a car just fine. I question the longevity of the parts and materials they use. Like the headliner adhesive on my Jetta (and something I've seen in multiple Jettas of similar age) that simply gave up after 10 years. Or whatever paint/coating material they coated the switchgear with that started to blister or turn sticky/gooey and essentially flow off of the switches. Or the plastic (not rubber) washer fluid lines that got brittle with age, especially when it was cold out, and snapped near the hood hinge (multiple times on my car). Or the rear springs that broke with only 76K miles (a co-worker with a Golf-platform car had the exact same thing happen at similarly low miles). Or the plastic radiators on maybe early 2000s (and possibly later) BMWs that fail after 75K miles because they become brittle and crack/split. And then there's the electronics. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Bosch and Lucas is that the stuff from Bosch will at least work pretty well for the first 4-5 years before going to pot.
I believe some of the parts you guys want to last forever are considered wear and tear parts here. Maybe it's the variety of harsh temperatures in your country which affects their durability. I have no idea.
Then there is also the draconian EU with their wide variation of regulations, the biodegradable wiring being one of the most famous examples. Whatever the EU decides, it HAS to be adopted by member states and their industries (if the law affects them). Remember, this is a governing body which has explicit rules on how much a banana can be bent or how to properly prepare a Pizza Napoletana - no joke. This means that their material laws have to be followed by all companies within the EU, for good or for worse. Just a thought.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2019, 04:14:27 AM
I believe some of the parts you guys want to last forever are considered wear and tear parts here. Maybe it's the variety of harsh temperatures in your country which affects their durability. I have no idea.
Then there is also the draconian EU with their wide variation of regulations, the biodegradable wiring being one of the most famous examples. Whatever the EU decides, it HAS to be adopted by member states and their industries (if the law affects them). Remember, this is a governing body which has explicit rules on how much a banana can be bent or how to properly prepare a Pizza Napoletana - no joke. This means that their material laws have to be followed by all companies within the EU, for good or for worse. Just a thought.
Without exception, I want all parts to last forever. Obviously that doesn't happen, but when Car A has problems with parts before Cars B,C,D or E the problem and fault lies with Car A, not my expectations.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2019, 08:25:55 PM
Lambo actually has legit SUV history with the LM002.
Legit off road history with the Lamborghinetta, the L33, the DL series, the R2 DT and a bunch of others too.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 13, 2019, 05:27:13 PM
With an extended warranty and a willingness to accept the occasional week of downtime for repairs it's a no brainer
What he said! Just take your time finding properly maintained car and then have fun with it!
Wouldn't a Q7 be a better deal or option?
I sort of dig the original BMW X5's.
(https://photos.offerup.com/Dg1GNOTwuBYwQilzjZ326qsOFRQ=/600x450/e7d8/e7d8868a959048b1925e0f2ddb4af18b.jpg)
That being said I am not an SUV person. If I was in your shoes I'd probably be look at a honda passport or honda ridgeline.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 14, 2019, 05:33:12 AM
Legit off road history with the Lamborghinetta, the L33, the DL series, the R2 DT and a bunch of others too.
I consider Automobili Lamborghini as a distinct entity from Lamborghini Trattori. Trattori was sucked into a larger conglomerate in the early 70s while Automobili was still independent.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2019, 07:23:18 PM
Honda Passport? I think you're missing the entire point of this purchase. Why buy a 996 911 when I can get a Civic that has newer tech, is more reliable, and gets better gas mileage?
Because a Civic isn't a rear engined RWD performance car with nearly 60 years of motorsport pedigree that sits in a class of its own? :confused:
Meanwhile the 9PA Cayenne is literally just a fancy VW, and is priced to reflect that.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2019, 04:14:27 AM
I believe some of the parts you guys want to last forever are considered wear and tear parts here. Maybe it's the variety of harsh temperatures in your country which affects their durability. I have no idea.
Then there is also the draconian EU with their wide variation of regulations, the biodegradable wiring being one of the most famous examples. Whatever the EU decides, it HAS to be adopted by member states and their industries (if the law affects them). Remember, this is a governing body which has explicit rules on how much a banana can be bent or how to properly prepare a Pizza Napoletana - no joke. This means that their material laws have to be followed by all companies within the EU, for good or for worse. Just a thought.
Why don't I hear about these degrading material problems on Opels, Saabs, or Volvos? Or even Euro Fords? Do they not need to also adhere to EU regulations?
Soy based wiring insulation? Rats love to chew it!
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 14, 2019, 06:30:28 AM
Wouldn't a Q7 be a better deal or option?
I sort of dig the original BMW X5's.
(https://photos.offerup.com/Dg1GNOTwuBYwQilzjZ326qsOFRQ=/600x450/e7d8/e7d8868a959048b1925e0f2ddb4af18b.jpg)
That being said I am not an SUV person. If I was in your shoes I'd probably be look at a honda passport or honda ridgeline.
I like the Q7 and X5 as well and they remain a possibility. Mainstream SUVs are not on my radar, and I'm not really an SUV guy either. BUT, I need a good winter vehicle with decent room and excellent towing capability. That's the rational part of what I'm doing. If I went fully rational, I'd be looking at a Tahoe or something similar. But after 15 years of building up to this point in my life, paying off stuff, saving for retirement, taking just one vacation, buying cheap used toys (Miata and Cabrio), I want a little irrationality. I want to drive a baller Porsche branded gas sucking SUV that cost 6 figures when new, with full ball massaging leather and baby seal killing efficiency. I want to park at work and have my co=worker go "ooooh, Nick's doin a'ight". Totally irrational. I wear hearing aids due to 30 years of Air Force service, and it took 3 long years to get this money. A small chunk of it, $15k, is funding this irrationality. I've been wanting a Boxster for years, and can finally and comfortably get one now, but really the Miata happily fills the summer fun car role, as does the Cabrio. So I thought, hmmmm... I do need something practical and I do need to tow my ATV trailer and maybe in the spring I'll get a small boat. But I still want something with a Porsche or other premium luxury badge on it. Just because. I'll never afford one of these new and I'd never buy one of these new if I could. Just some once in a lifetime extravagance.
Anecdotal VW product observation:
My mom's Q5 has about 90k miles on the clock. Absolutely nothing is wrong with it. Only work that's been done on it is oil changes, summer/winter tire swaps, and two light bulb replacements. For cripes sake I think it still has the stock brake pads.
I was happy to be rid of my A4 at ~65k miles before it got to a point where it was gonna start needing work (and I wanted a truck anyways), but I've been really impressed with mom's Q5 and its reliability.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 14, 2019, 09:21:45 AM
I like the Q7 and X5 as well and they remain a possibility. Mainstream SUVs are not on my radar, and I'm not really an SUV guy either. BUT, I need a good winter vehicle with decent room and excellent towing capability. That's the rational part of what I'm doing. If I went fully rational, I'd be looking at a Tahoe or something similar. But after 15 years of building up to this point in my life, paying off stuff, saving for retirement, taking just one vacation, buying cheap used toys (Miata and Cabrio), I want a little irrationality. I want to drive a baller Porsche branded gas sucking SUV that cost 6 figures when new, with full ball massaging leather and baby seal killing efficiency. I want to park at work and have my co=worker go "ooooh, Nick's doin a'ight". Totally irrational. I wear hearing aids due to 30 years of Air Force service, and it took 3 long years to get this money. A small chunk of it, $15k, is funding this irrationality. I've been wanting a Boxster for years, and can finally and comfortably get one now, but really the Miata happily fills the summer fun car role, as does the Cabrio. So I thought, hmmmm... I do need something practical and I do need to tow my ATV trailer and maybe in the spring I'll get a small boat. But I still want something with a Porsche or other premium luxury badge on it. Just because. I'll never afford one of these new and I'd never buy one of these new if I could. Just some once in a lifetime extravagance.
That being said, the Cayenne fits the bill perfectly. Just do it.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 14, 2019, 09:21:45 AM
I like the Q7 and X5 as well and they remain a possibility. Mainstream SUVs are not on my radar, and I'm not really an SUV guy either. BUT, I need a good winter vehicle with decent room and excellent towing capability. That's the rational part of what I'm doing. If I went fully rational, I'd be looking at a Tahoe or something similar. But after 15 years of building up to this point in my life, paying off stuff, saving for retirement, taking just one vacation, buying cheap used toys (Miata and Cabrio), I want a little irrationality. I want to drive a baller Porsche branded gas sucking SUV that cost 6 figures when new, with full ball massaging leather and baby seal killing efficiency. I want to park at work and have my co=worker go "ooooh, Nick's doin a'ight". Totally irrational. I wear hearing aids due to 30 years of Air Force service, and it took 3 long years to get this money. A small chunk of it, $15k, is funding this irrationality. I've been wanting a Boxster for years, and can finally and comfortably get one now, but really the Miata happily fills the summer fun car role, as does the Cabrio. So I thought, hmmmm... I do need something practical and I do need to tow my ATV trailer and maybe in the spring I'll get a small boat. But I still want something with a Porsche or other premium luxury badge on it. Just because. I'll never afford one of these new and I'd never buy one of these new if I could. Just some once in a lifetime extravagance.
Total get it, its not that different from me buying a Z3 instead of a Miata (which probably drives as good or better and is cheaper to own).
At the end of the day you should get a car you will enjoy (IMHO). If its the Cayenne great, but I do think its worth driving an X5 and Q7 first.
I'd actually suggest an X3 and Q5 if they fit your towing needs, but they probably won't. Plus the X5 (and I think the Q7) have V8's. :lol:
This is a terrible idea all around, and I fully support it. This place needs some excitement :lol:
V10 tdi Touareg
Quote from: MrH on October 14, 2019, 10:35:21 AM
This is a terrible idea all around, and I fully support it. This place needs some excitement :lol:
I'll be sure to post my adventures and rage filled conniptions.
It would be worth it to get an independent inspection on that thing.
Quote from: MX793 on October 14, 2019, 06:51:20 AM
I consider Automobili Lamborghini as a distinct entity from Lamborghini Trattori. Trattori was sucked into a larger conglomerate in the early 70s while Automobili was still independent.
Yeah, you're right. Lamborghini Automobili was never handed off between larger companies like an unwanted orphan. Until 1974.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 14, 2019, 05:29:46 AM
Without exception, I want all parts to last forever. Obviously that doesn't happen, but when Car A has problems with parts before Cars B,C,D or E the problem and fault lies with Car A, not my expectations.
Same.
But wear and tear does happen on some parts. Car manufacturers in many cases don't even build the parts for their cars themselves anymore. There's an entire industry that supplies them with suspension components, rubber, software etc.
Quote from: MX793 on October 14, 2019, 07:18:32 AM
Why don't I hear about these degrading material problems on Opels, Saabs, or Volvos? Or even Euro Fords? Do they not need to also adhere to EU regulations?
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have
better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.
Maybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.
Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2019, 01:08:01 PM
Same.
But wear and tear does happen on some parts. Car manufacturers in many cases don't even build the parts for their cars themselves anymore. There's an entire industry that supplies them with suspension components, rubber, software etc.
Always been that way (guess what I've done most of my life); at least since the 1940s. But the parts are made to manufacturer specification.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.
Maybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.
Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?
Ford and GM Mexican plants have higher overall quality ratings than those in the US.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.
Suppliers build to VW's specifications and requirements. I work for a design and integration company. We design the product and perform the final assembly, but we actually fabricate few of the components in our products. 95% or more of the parts in our products come from somebody else. Our suppliers build to our blueprints and requirements. It's VW's responsibility in the end to use good parts from good suppliers, because it's VW's design and VW's badge on the grille. If they're using bad parts, it's either because VW's designs and requirements are bad (intentional) or VW needs to have better oversight on their supply base.
QuoteMaybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.
Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?
Not all quality issues can be traced to the factory floor. Hence my previous statement about my faith in Germans knowing how to build a car correctly. But a properly built car may still be a piece of junk if it's poorly designed.
All quality issues can be traced to one or both of the following root causes:
1. Design defect
2. Implementation (or manufacturing) defect
A design defect is anytime the item is built per the engineer's or designer's intentions, but it still doesn't work like it's supposed to. Examples would be selecting incorrect components or materials for the intended function.
For example, if a car is supposed to be able to operate in -40 degree weather, and the engineer selected a fuel pump that stops working at -30 degrees, that's a design defect. The engineer selected the wrong fuel pump for the application. Or selecting a fuse that doesn't have enough ampacity for the amount of current in the circuit. These defects may be latent.
An implementation, or manufacturing, defect is when something isn't built per the design. These are the types of defects you get on the assembly line. For example, a car radio doesn't work because somebody forgot to plug in the wire harness. Or a tail light doesn't work because somebody forgot to install the light bulb. Or somebody didn't tighten all of the lugnuts on the wheels. The blueprints said that the radio had to be connected or the lightbulb to be there, or for the lugnuts to be tightened to X N-m, but somebody didn't follow the blueprints. Manufacturing defects typically show up pretty early, or are caught through routine inspections, though some can be latent.
I don't believe any of the issues my car had could be traced to manufacturing defects. I believe the majority were design defects, mostly the result of poor material selection.
But I wasn't talking about my car specifically when I said "why don't these other European cars have these same issues" in response to you suggesting that the degrading materials might be the fault of EU regulations. Broken washer fluid lines are extremely common on Jettas. Partly because VW uses a relatively hard and brittle, semi-rigid plastic tubing. Partly because the way they route the line through the hood hinge puts a lot of stress on the material. Both are bad design. My Mustang uses a similar material for the hose (bad), but Ford routes theirs so that it doesn't get bent as much when you open the hood (good). They acknowledged that the material isn't very flexible, so they avoid flexing it at the hinge so it lasts much longer. My Toyota, and IIRC my Mazda, use(d) synthetic rubber hoses, which aren't brittle.
BMW radiators use plastic fittings that tend to fail after ~80K miles. Nobody else seems to have this problem (probably because most everyone else uses metal...). Bad material selection. Bad design.
Biodegrading wire insulation? Why do I only see Mercedes Benz in my google results when I type in "biodegradable wire"? The only other company I see mentioned is Volvo, which apparently had an issue in the very early 80s. If this was caused by EU legislation, why didn't every other Euro company have the same problems in the 90s (and possibly beyond) that Merc did? If everybody was forced to use environmentally friendly wire, but only one company had widespread problems, then clearly that company screwed up because there was a better material out there that satisfied EU regulations and the design requirements of a car not falling apart after 10 years. They chose the wrong material, and that's bad design.
I'm with MX793; there is no logical explanation for German car problems, aside from overdesign and rushing technology to market before it's ready.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 14, 2019, 04:25:44 PM
I'm with MX793; there is no logical explanation for German car problems, aside from overdesign and rushing technology to market before it's ready.
I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 14, 2019, 05:20:44 PM
I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.
This. They did it with the original Boxster 2.5 block/sleeve design, the Audi V8 timing chain with plastic guides, etc.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 14, 2019, 05:20:44 PM
I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.
I think we are saying the same thing
Sometimes it was overconfidence, like moving from the timing belt in front to a chain at the back. "What could possibly go wrong?"
Audi service position:
(https://external-preview.redd.it/EaWqqVkZFWIKfyeXSCq8Tgt4vm5pSenT6TX-q5Uq08g.jpg?auto=webp&s=804d551e56da760e47565b5a3fa870d7b003b164)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 14, 2019, 01:25:13 PM
Ford and GM Mexican plants have higher overall quality ratings than those in the US.
Interesting.
@MX793
You explained it pretty well and with great and easy-to-understand detail. Thanks. :ohyeah:
Quote from: MX793 on October 14, 2019, 04:06:37 PM
Biodegrading wire insulation? Why do I only see Mercedes Benz in my google results when I type in "biodegradable wire"? The only other company I see mentioned is Volvo, which apparently had an issue in the very early 80s. If this was caused by EU legislation, why didn't every other Euro company have the same problems in the 90s (and possibly beyond) that Merc did? If everybody was forced to use environmentally friendly wire, but only one company had widespread problems, then clearly that company screwed up because there was a better material out there that satisfied EU regulations and the design requirements of a car not falling apart after 10 years. They chose the wrong material, and that's bad design.
I'm positive the biodegradable wiring is found on most if not all European cars because it was an EU regulation going back to the 1980s. Then beginning in the 1990s there was a lot of investment from automakers to build their cars out of as many recycled and eco-friendly materials as possible.No doubt this also applied to their suppliers - maybe that's a reason why some of their components wear out quicker etc. Maybe eco-friendly rubber just doesn't last as long...
In any case my dad's '89 500SL is approaching 300,000 km and has had no electrical issues, and neither has his fully-loaded 2010 E350 CGI (W212) with a little over 200,000 km now. Both of them have biodegradable wiring. As far as I am aware, biodegradable wiring simple means the wires are easier to recycle, and should not actually fail within the car's lifetime of usage.
This is a bad idea, but also I tire of this forums bellyaching over (minor) decisions.
We all know it's got the potential to be a catastrophic hot mess - but it's clear that you want the damn thing, so you should just go ahead and buy and enjoy it.
Don't do it.
Do it.
:lol:
VehiCROSS
Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. :hmm:
Quote from: Rockraven on October 15, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. :hmm:
Go for the classic, 1985.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 15, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. :hmm:
If you start waffling you'll end up with nothing :nono: or else a Camry. :huh:
You do you.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 15, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. :hmm:
$15k gets you a lot more used CRV.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 15, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. :hmm:
Strange way to spell Land Cruiser.
I remember day dreaming about buying a cayenne a few years ago and I think I recall the V8 having some significant reliability issues
It very much comes down to engineering culture differences between the Japanese and Germans, and the difference in material strategies.
VW and BMW both used PVC extensively in interiors and kept using it for a long time after most other OEMs moved on. PVC degrades and becomes brittle over time a lot more compared to a lot of other plastics. It's cheap and holds tight tolerances, but also squeaks. There are pros and cons to each material. So it's a lack of safety factor in the design + materials that degrade = broken interior switches etc
The design philosophy is totally different. Germans don't believe in Occam's razor, they want the most "complete" design that best fits the criteria. Japanese OEMs are incredibly risk averse and TPS dictates you really prove everything out to the n-th degree before implementing. Is Toyota going to have the most innovative window switches? No. But they'll pretty much always work.
Luxury German OEMs are always pushing to some degree, even on things that we don't view as needing innovation like window switches. There's a degree of risk to that.
They push when they don't have to. For example you look at the S65/S85 engines (the 4.0 V8/5.0 V10)... Honda showed the cheapest + easiest ways to hit 100HP/L+. No ionic knock sensors or ITBs needed. Oh, and all the engine bearings will last forever with good old 5W20 synthetic at like $5 a quart, not 10W60 you have to special order from Germany that doesn't protect the rod bearings anyway. So they obsess over weird shit that doesn't matter at the expense of basic shit $20K econocar makers have zero issues with.
I don't know when this changed because I don't think it used to be this way. I know with BMW things changed bigly with the E60/E90. Maybe they had some pent up technolust to express after the austerity of the late 90s. But it came at a price
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 16, 2019, 04:21:11 AM
Strange way to spell Land Cruiser.
They don't have a steep enough depreciation curve.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2019, 07:52:18 AM
They push when they don't have to. For example you look at the S65/S85 engines (the 4.0 V8/5.0 V10)... Honda showed the cheapest + easiest ways to hit 100HP/L+. No ionic knock sensors or ITBs needed. Oh, and all the engine bearings will last forever with good old 5W20 synthetic at like $5 a quart, not 10W60 you have to special order from Germany that doesn't protect the rod bearings anyway. So they obsess over weird shit that doesn't matter at the expense of basic shit $20K econocar makers have zero issues with.
I don't know when this changed because I don't think it used to be this way. I know with BMW things changed bigly with the E60/E90. Maybe they had some pent up technolust to express after the austerity of the late 90s. But it came at a price
Honda is also one of the best engine manufacturers in the world. It's not like they cracked the code and everyone can pull off what they do.
Quote from: MrH on October 16, 2019, 07:11:22 AM
It very much comes down to engineering culture differences between the Japanese and Germans, and the difference in material strategies.
VW and BMW both used PVC extensively in interiors and kept using it for a long time after most other OEMs moved on. PVC degrades and becomes brittle over time a lot more compared to a lot of other plastics. It's cheap and holds tight tolerances, but also squeaks. There are pros and cons to each material. So it's a lack of safety factor in the design + materials that degrade = broken interior switches etc
The design philosophy is totally different. Germans don't believe in Occam's razor, they want the most "complete" design that best fits the criteria. Japanese OEMs are incredibly risk averse and TPS dictates you really prove everything out to the n-th degree before implementing. Is Toyota going to have the most innovative window switches? No. But they'll pretty much always work.
Luxury German OEMs are always pushing to some degree, even on things that we don't view as needing innovation like window switches. There's a degree of risk to that.
Oddly enough, the window switches in my Toyota are the only things that don't work properly.
Earth Dreams? :muffin:
Quote from: Lebowski on October 16, 2019, 08:07:27 AM
They don't have a steep enough depreciation curve.
Well, that's true.
Quote from: MrH on October 16, 2019, 08:16:04 AM
Honda is also one of the best engine manufacturers in the world. It's not like they cracked the code and everyone can pull off what they do.
I'm just talking about design. Good engineering is seeking out the simplest, most elegant solution for a problem. That's usually Honda's approach, which is a big part of why they are the best.
Honda has had their share of exploding transmissions and oil guzzling engines... Let's just call it as it is
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2019, 09:50:10 AM
I'm just talking about design. Good engineering is seeking out the simplest, most elegant solution for a problem. That's usually Honda's approach, which is a big part of why they are the best.
That's not how the German's view it at all.
They typically chase after what they consider the most "complete" solution.
Quote from: MrH on October 16, 2019, 02:05:38 PM
That's not how the German's view it at all.
They typically chase after what they consider the most "complete" solution.
It is, and I can point to many cases outside of the auto industry to back up that assertion, or even to autos from the past.
I wonder what Galaxy and Wimmer think of that.
Just having my coffee and leaving soon to go buy a Porsche SUV. :muffin:
Quote from: Rockraven on October 19, 2019, 06:20:50 AM
Just having my coffee and leaving soon to go buy a Porsche SUV. :muffin:
:pullover:
Quote from: Rockraven on October 19, 2019, 06:20:50 AM
Just having my coffee and leaving soon to go buy a Porsche SUV. :muffin:
Same one?
Just got home, yes same one. Absolutely gorgeous, in amazing condition. Sumptuous leather interior and killer sound system, power everything. Took it around some city streets and then up on hwy 407. Gobs of power but didn't feel particularly fast, and super smooth with no noticeable road noise. And the sound is awesome. Just a superb friggin vehicle.
I didn't pull the trigger. Yet. I'm agonizing over it, for the reasons you guys mentioned (and I already knew). Also, the extra warranty is 2 years and almost an extra $4000.
*sigh*
That's a lot for a couple of years warranty. Sounds like a nice car though. Maybe'll they'll shave a couple or so grand off the price.
"Gobs of power but didn't feel particularly fast"
As in "it's not fast", or "it doesn't feel fast"? My impressions of German cars is that they're very much built to make high speeds tolerable.
How 'bout a Cayman or a Boxster? You'll get the power and feeling of speed you crave.
This popped into my feed yesterday... You probably won't like the answer.
https://jalopnik.com/whats-the-best-used-luxury-suv-that-wont-cost-a-fortune-1839161486 (https://jalopnik.com/whats-the-best-used-luxury-suv-that-wont-cost-a-fortune-1839161486)
Quote from: Laconian on October 19, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
"Gobs of power but didn't feel particularly fast"
As in "it's not fast", or "it doesn't feel fast"? My impressions of German cars is that they're very much built to make high speeds tolerable.
30-50 and 50-70 acceleration didn't seem impressive, but it was linear and felt like it would haul past 150. Cruising at 80-90 mph it was like a bank vault and smooth, as expected.
How about taking that specific car to an independent mechanic for an appraisal?
Quote from: Laconian on October 19, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
"Gobs of power but didn't feel particularly fast"
As in "it's not fast", or "it doesn't feel fast"? My impressions of German cars is that they're very much built to make high speeds tolerable.
That was my impression with the A4. It was quick, but didn't always
feel quick. But it ate up 80mph miles like nobody's business.
So did u do it?
Quote from: Rockraven on October 23, 2019, 05:22:03 PM
No. Looking at saner options.
Boo! Get something insane. Do it for us. We need drama.
Wtf I want a refun.
I dunno what I'm doing yet... vehicle plans are on the backburner for now as I take care of some investments and kitchen planning. 10 year ago me would have bought it 2 weeks ago, but I've turned into a financial coward.
Quote from: MX793 on October 24, 2019, 08:55:18 AM
If he's trying to impress the neighbors, CR-V.
:rockon:
This thread is a catastrophe
AMG G63
Used crew cab Silverado V8. Or F150. Or Ram. Avoid Titan- it's a POS. Lots of power, lots of room, lots of easy driving, lots of towing and not bad handling..for a truck. Plus, you can haul that new refrigerator home yourself and save the $29.95.
But you do have to deflect the "Help me move!" friend requests.
Quote from: r0tor on October 24, 2019, 05:11:03 PM
This thread is a catastrophe
Yeah, *sigh* sorry. I'll have something cool to post soon. Looking at X5s now too.
Thoughts? Newer and much less kms than the Porsche, and the straight 6 is a gem.
https://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/x5/toronto/ontario/5_45768633_20181004191215086/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=pl&urp=3&urm=8&pc=K0K1L0&sprx=250
https://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/x5/scarborough/ontario/5_44471465_20181122203229678/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&orup=9_15_106&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=250
Quote from: Rockraven on October 24, 2019, 07:21:42 AM
I dunno what I'm doing yet... vehicle plans are on the backburner for now as I take care of some investments and kitchen planning. 10 year ago me would have bought it 2 weeks ago, but I've turned into a financial coward.
Welcome to adulthood, FinancialSPIN will be your guide.
Seriously don't buy something to delight us, we don't matter.
X5 could have some tuning potential
I was looking at the Cadillac SUVs when I was last big car shopping. Got better ratings than Cayenne....