Interesting perspective from that place I dare not name.
http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/cadillacs-problem-isnt-the-germans-its-the-koreans-1694749647/ (http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/cadillacs-problem-isnt-the-germans-its-the-koreans-1694749647/)
QuoteIt's no secret that Cadillac, the self proclaimed "standard of the world," is struggling right now as a luxury automaker. Cadillac CEO Johan de Nysschen said it will cost $12 billion to turn the brand around in order to face the Germans, but are they going after the wrong targets?
Cadillac is about to debut the all new CT6 sedan in an attempt to once again make their car just as "desirable" as an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes. But it probably won't matter to your average luxury car buyer. Ask most folks who can actually afford a 5-Series or an E-Class what they think of Cadillac and you will find the main issue is not quality, or technology, or even performance...it's image. As of now the brand just doesn't convey the "status" of the European hardware. I realize that status is a shallow reason to select an automobile, but that is simply the reality of luxury car market.
Which brings me to the next problem, for those that can look past the badge Cadillac doesn't offer the "value" that the less-superficial shoppers are aiming for. I recently helped a client get a deal on a brand new 2015 Hyundai Genesis 3.8. I was shocked at how aggressive Hyundai is being with these cars in order to grab a foot-hold in the luxury market. Not only is the Genesis priced with a starting MSRP of $38,000 compared to the CTS that starts at $45,100 or the benchmark BMW 5-Series ($49,950), but Hyundai is also piling on the discounts to make a sale.
My customer wanted a base Genesis 3.8 without any packages, as he was very satisfied with all the standard equipment. Dealerships in California were willing to discount the sticker price down to a little over $34,000. So for about the price of a loaded V6 Camry you can have a rear-wheel-drive, luxury sedan with 311 horsepower (more than the 528, A6 2.0T, and CTS 2.0T), with standard navigation, heated seats, Bluetooth, and plenty of other goodies.
If my customer wanted to lease, the deal was even sweeter. After all the discounts and incentives were tallied up, the dealer offered a lease payment of $307/mo for 36 months and 10,000 miles per year, with only $1000 down. Compare that to Cadillac's offer of $449/mo for 36 months at 10,000 miles per year with $4349 down payment, and this is for a $45,ooo CTS. Now when you look at BMW's current lease special for a 528i with an MSRP of $52,700, the numbers are $499/mo for 36 months and 10,000 miles with a $4294 down payment. When you do the math it is hard to rationalize the CTS, regardless on how good it may be to drive.
Aside from the price difference, I was also quite impressed by the dealership experience from Hyundai. Not long ago I criticized them for sticking to "old ways" and made the point that you can't sell a $40k luxury car like a $15k compact. It seems that many Hyundai dealers woke up, and altered their approach to high-end sales. Almost every dealership I contacted was not only receptive, but gave me prompt responses with offers in writing. They understood that luxury car buyers especially don't want to "play games" and prefer quick sales with professional salespeople. The Hyundai dealers delivered, while even de Nysschen admits that Cadillac's dealer network could use some improvement.
Cadillac is facing a battle on two fronts. On the one hand, you have Hyundai and Kia offering less expensive alternatives for buyers that are less "badge conscious." On the other hand, Cadillac sees itself as on-par with the tier one players like Mercedes and BMW, but despite some really solid efforts just can't manage to steal customers away. Cadillac was once a luxury car to aspire to. There was a time when if you drove a Caddy, you were somebody (most likely a member of organized crime). Therefore, from a historical and philosophical standpoint it would be difficult for them to look "down-market" and fight the value brands like Hyundai and Kia head-on.
However, the "hearts and minds" battle that Cadillac has been desperately fighting, for the past decade or so, is not paying off. It won't matter how much power the CT6 can throw down or how light it is, to the average person just looks like a bigger CTS. It isn't going to save the brand. This war isn't won in the showrooms or the spec-sheet. People want to feel like they are getting more (or at least the same) for less. With Cadillac the perception is "less for the same cost." So either the brand needs to meet its value minded customers where they are, at lower price points, or their next project needs to be some kind hypnotizing device that alters the mindset of luxury car buyers.
Interesting about the $12B figure. Lets do some quick financial analysis. Caddy is selling about 140K cars are year in the US that aren't Escalades. Lets say they up that to 200K/yr with this revamp. OK. Lets also say by the grace of God they are able to make the ~20% or so profit margin that is the norm for Ze Germans on each one, at an average invoice of ~45K with no incentives (which is a far cry from where they are now). .2*45000*200000 = $1.8B- IF everything goes ABSOLUTELY PERFECT- i.e. they boost volume AND up their transaction prices essentially to that of the German equivalents. Thats more than a 6 year payback.... would u call that smart?
Meanwhile if they used the Malibu n Impala with aggressive PHEV powertrains, sharp styling and high content value, they could probably make that same 2 billion in profit annually for a lot less money. A whole lot less.
The comparison to the Genesis shows how out of whack Cadillac's value proposition is. If u dont care about brand, and by and large people who buy Cadillacs don't, why buy an ATS/CTS over a Genesis?
Because the genesis looks like ass.
Cadillac should be design focused.
The Hyundai isn't.
Yeah, the front of the Genesis is hard to look at. It's not a pretty car at all.
Fair point but Cadillacs today are designed so u cant find em in a parking lot. Plus thats easily fixed.
Like I've said before I totally agree that Caddy should be design focused. There is a real dearth of style in the luxury realm, though to be fair MB is showing flashes of it with the new C and S. Definitely looking forward to the new E.
Cadillac should be a Mercedes competitor, not as much focused on the BMW or Audi cars.
I don't think cadillac can ever be "turned around" and reach a point of being truly on par(image wise) with the germans.
So really, what's the point? I mean if GM is making cash off the deal then thats fine but if it's a money loser they might as well just cut and run instead of throwing good money after bad.
While I'm saying that, I think ford should take that advice as well with the lincoln brand.
The way cars are being built(options) and the higher the sticker prices get(you can spend 40K at ford or chev) there is no reason not to cut away the dead luxury brands and move to a more "middle ground" premium mainstream type of brand. For example, Chryslers latest designs and their big jump on interior design and quality can almost make the buyer feel that they are buying a "premium" car even though it's just a mainstream manufacturer. It isn't as far fetched as some would believe. I think many would be surprised hopping in between a loaded 300C and the sts(or cts, or whatever their mid/large v8 model is, do they have a v8 model?).
Its a shame that Lincoln is making better strides in the market by just dressing up Ford products then Cadillac is with focused approaches in the segment.
Maybe Ford realized why bother going after the Germans when a German buyer won't buy your product because of sheer brand prestige.
Quote from: r0tor on March 31, 2015, 12:47:10 PM
Its a shame that Lincoln is making better strides in the market by just dressing up Ford products then Cadillac is with focused approaches in the segment.
Maybe Ford realized why bother going after the Germans when a German buyer won't buy your product because of sheer brand prestige.
Lincoln is just dressing up fords and slapping a few grand extra profit on top. Which from a business standpoint is fine, since they are just building cars to make money.
Quote from: r0tor on March 31, 2015, 12:47:10 PM
Its a shame that Lincoln is making better strides in the market by just dressing up Ford products then Cadillac is with focused approaches in the segment.
Maybe Ford realized why bother going after the Germans when a German buyer won't buy your product because of sheer brand prestige.
Uh, what? Lincoln is still a joke.
Maybe that guy should stick to selling Hyundais ...
The CTS and SRX were big successes for Cadillac. The ATS less so but still successful. The Escalade is a unique thing but it too is by the numbers successful. I have no idea about this CT6 but that segment is so small who really cares.
Audi, BMW and M-B are much larger corporations with global presence - Cadillac has never been that and I don't think they want to be that. With 4-7 year model cycles it takes a long time to resurrect a brand, and Cadillac is doing it about as fast as possible.
I still think the CTX nomenclature is absolutely horrible.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 31, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
I still think the CTX nomenclature is absolutely horrible.
Names have much more H&H unless you're a German. Americans and Japanese need to realize this immediately and stop the BS.
Yet another sign this country is going to hell. A Korean shitbox is better than a Caddy? Jesus... :facepalm:
The new ct6 has an optional 34 speaker stereo
So you criticize Cadillac for focusing on something that Hyundai is far from mastering -- engaging handling -- and then say "OMG Hyundai is cheaper!" Can't different automakers focus on different things?
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 31, 2015, 12:52:33 PM
Uh, what? Lincoln is still a joke.
They are deeply digging into Cadillacs sales
Quote from: ifcar on March 31, 2015, 03:30:13 PM
So you criticize Cadillac for focusing on something that Hyundai is far from mastering -- engaging handling -- and then say "OMG Hyundai is cheaper!" Can't different automakers focus on different things?
The Genesis is a 4400 lb sedan..... its focus is not engaging handling, and in any case engaging handling is irrelevant to the luxury market. If it wasnt the Caddy would be a success.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 31, 2015, 12:58:32 PM
Maybe that guy should stick to selling Hyundais ...
The CTS and SRX were big successes for Cadillac. The ATS less so but still successful. The Escalade is a unique thing but it too is by the numbers successful. I have no idea about this CT6 but that segment is so small who really cares.
Audi, BMW and M-B are much larger corporations with global presence - Cadillac has never been that and I don't think they want to be that. With 4-7 year model cycles it takes a long time to resurrect a brand, and Cadillac is doing it about as fast as possible.
Yea, were. The OG CTS + SRX were the cars that turned Cadillac from an ancient relic and complete joke to a semi-luxury brand kinda worth considering spending money on for cars. But Caddy def wants to be a global brand, and nothing they can do will get them there.
"George, do you know why you failed?"
"Because... because I got caught"
"No George. You fail... because you have the wrong dream. Tell me George... what do you know about cocaine?"
Quote from: r0tor on March 31, 2015, 12:47:10 PM
Its a shame that Lincoln is making better strides in the market by just dressing up Ford products then Cadillac is with focused approaches in the segment.
Maybe Ford realized why bother going after the Germans when a German buyer won't buy your product because of sheer brand prestige.
This is exactly what it comes down to. An American car selling for more than $40K in high volume is a pipe dream. That's truck territory. Trucks carry the status to demand those prices.... store brand 3/5 series dont.
CT6 shows they still dont get it. Who cares how light these cars are?
Caddy has the wrong dream. They will never be able to fight with the Germans. ATS was a huge mistake, as good as it is. Alpha platform banking on ATS/CTS succeeding was a huge mistake. They need to go the Lincoln route, but also leverage their techs and heritage. There is nothing Cadillac about the ATS/CTS
I can't take someone seriously if they put Lincoln on a pedestal while blasting Cadillac.
Lincoln is garbage.
They don't make a single product worth a damn, except maybe the MKC and MKZ.
Lincoln's cars aren't great, but then they don't have to be. Warmed over Fords are low risk, low cost, high profit endeavors. And heres the funniest part. You scoff at Lincolns, but on average a new MKZ is trading hands at a higher price than an ATS. It's also generally selling above invoice, while the ATS is selling at about $1500 under. And as of 2014 the MKZ is outselling the ATS too, at least in the US. So how can Lincoln be "garbage" when people are willing to pay more for a Ford Fusion XLE V6 than a Nurburgring tuned new from the ground up ATS? MKZ has higher content value, a bigger back seat, and for the money better performance. If you don't care about dynamics, and most people don't, what is the case for buying an ATS over an MKZ? An MKZ!!!!!
I know it hurts to hear because the ATS is a car for "us". It's a car we are supposed to like. It's a good car, and on the strength of where Caddy was 20 years ago it deserves to win. But you guys are missing the bigger picture, just as GM did. GM is in the business of selling cars, not appeasing internet enthusiasts. And as good as the ATS/CTS are, they are not good in the ways that matter to luxury buyers. Even the people buying them are taking them at steep, steep, steep discounts. The fact that the MKZ is outselling it more profitably at higher transaction prices speaks to what I've been saying all along- people want style, content, room and adequate performance.... not whatever the fuck Cadillac is trying to do.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 31, 2015, 06:48:05 PM
Lincoln is garbage.
They don't make a single product worth a damn, except maybe the MKC and MKZ.
So, garbage except for its No. 1 and No. 2 best-selling vehicles, which combined made up more than half of the brand's sales so far this year, and which are also its only two relatively new products yet on sale?
I think sporty is coming at this as a guy that traded a good performance car for a plebeian sedan, so this is his insight. He has a point, gushing car-rag articles about ats dynamics isn't going to do much to persuade the young professional that would normally buy an automatic, base, 3-series that the caddy is more desirable.
I have to say I have noticed seeing a number of MKZ-hybrids popping up in the professor parking lots here at the university. This in a sea of bmws/audis/mercedes, I can't think of ever seeing single caddy. The hybrid thing seems to be a selling point.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 31, 2015, 07:36:57 PM
Lincoln's cars aren't great, but then they don't have to be. Warmed over Fords are low risk, low cost, high profit endeavors. And heres the funniest part. You scoff at Lincolns, but on average a new MKZ is trading hands at a higher price than an ATS. It's also generally selling above invoice, while the ATS is selling at about $1500 under. And as of 2014 the MKZ is outselling the ATS too, at least in the US. So how can Lincoln be "garbage" when people are willing to pay more for a Ford Fusion XLE V6 than a Nurburgring tuned new from the ground up ATS? MKZ has higher content value, a bigger back seat, and for the money better performance. If you don't care about dynamics, and most people don't, what is the case for buying an ATS over an MKZ? An MKZ!!!!!
I know it hurts to hear because the ATS is a car for "us". It's a car we are supposed to like. It's a good car, and on the strength of where Caddy was 20 years ago it deserves to win. But you guys are missing the bigger picture, just as GM did. GM is in the business of selling cars, not appeasing internet enthusiasts. And as good as the ATS/CTS are, they are not good in the ways that matter to luxury buyers. Even the people buying them are taking them at steep, steep, steep discounts. The fact that the MKZ is outselling it more profitably at higher transaction prices speaks to what I've been saying all along- people want style, content, room and adequate performance.... not whatever the fuck Cadillac is trying to do.
So what exactly are you doing then? In 2014 Cadillac almost tied Audi and still outsold Acura, Infiniti, and WAY more than Lincoln (171k vs. 94k).
Cadillac has no competition from Lincoln other than the Navigator (vs. Escalade) and MKS (vs. XTS) and the Cadillac cars are both better and sell better, and unlike Lincoln, Cadillac has unique cars (save for the Escalade) and world class performance variants.
I will say the Lincoln Continental concept looks cool but they screwed it with the motor.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 31, 2015, 06:48:05 PM
Lincoln is garbage.
They don't make a single product worth a damn, except maybe the MKC and MKZ.
Not a single one? Then you name two?
As far as I'm concerned, they make one really good product. The MKZ. Outside of that, Lincoln's lineup is feeble at best.
Quote from: SVT32V on March 31, 2015, 09:09:28 PM
I think sporty is coming at this as a guy that traded a good performance car for a plebeian sedan, so this is his insight. He has a point, gushing car-rag articles about ats dynamics isn't going to do much to persuade the young professional that would normally buy an automatic, base, 3-series that the caddy is more desirable.
I have to say I have noticed seeing a number of MKZ-hybrids popping up in the professor parking lots here at the university. This in a sea of bmws/audis/mercedes, I can't think of ever seeing single caddy. The hybrid thing seems to be a selling point.
Good grief. I am riding my motorcycle in to work today and I spent about an hour yesterday playing racing games with my Fanatec wheel setup. I'm not out of touch all of a sudden because I have a Z. The people who just don't understand how a car like the ATS could fail are the ones who are out of touch.
Cougs Imma get at u in a minute dawg I gotta make my workout elixirs and hit the road.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 31, 2015, 06:16:22 PM
I can't take someone seriously if they put Lincoln on a pedestal while blasting Cadillac.
Lincoln sales were up 15% last year, Cadillac down almost 10%.
Not saying its fair or justified, but a whole lot more effort is being put into Cadillac to achieve the sales figures of dressed up Fords.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 31, 2015, 11:39:31 AM
Interesting perspective from that place I dare not name.
http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/cadillacs-problem-isnt-the-germans-its-the-koreans-1694749647/ (http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/cadillacs-problem-isnt-the-germans-its-the-koreans-1694749647/)
Interesting about the $12B figure. Lets do some quick financial analysis. Caddy is selling about 140K cars are year in the US that aren't Escalades. Lets say they up that to 200K/yr with this revamp. OK. Lets also say by the grace of God they are able to make the ~20% or so profit margin that is the norm for Ze Germans on each one, at an average invoice of ~45K with no incentives (which is a far cry from where they are now). .2*45000*200000 = $1.8B- IF everything goes ABSOLUTELY PERFECT- i.e. they boost volume AND up their transaction prices essentially to that of the German equivalents. Thats more than a 6 year payback.... would u call that smart?
Meanwhile if they used the Malibu n Impala with aggressive PHEV powertrains, sharp styling and high content value, they could probably make that same 2 billion in profit annually for a lot less money. A whole lot less.
The comparison to the Genesis shows how out of whack Cadillac's value proposition is. If u dont care about brand, and by and large people who buy Cadillacs don't, why buy an ATS/CTS over a Genesis?
If he plans on dumping $12 billion into Cadillac (which won't happen anyways), he would expect a whole lot more than 200k in annual sales. 6 years payback of sales (gotta consider that's actually more than 6 years, because you need a few years to develop prior) wouldn't fly.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 31, 2015, 09:58:03 PM
So what exactly are you doing then? In 2014 Cadillac almost tied Audi and still outsold Acura, Infiniti, and WAY more than Lincoln (171k vs. 94k).
Cadillac has no competition from Lincoln other than the Navigator (vs. Escalade) and MKS (vs. XTS) and the Cadillac cars are both better and sell better, and unlike Lincoln, Cadillac has unique cars (save for the Escalade) and world class performance variants.
I will say the Lincoln Continental concept looks cool but they screwed it with the motor.
Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.
Cadillac? Throwing good dollars after the bad.
Yea, the Escalade and XTS outsell the Navigator and MKS. But the MKZ outsells the ATS. Cadillac has no answer for the MKC which is in a hot growing segment. Most importantly though every car Lincoln has for sale makes money. Caddy is losing money on every ATS/CTS sold. GM will never recoup on the Alpha platform. What good is volume when you're giving cars away?
The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX). When it comes to domestic brands, luxury comes in the form of trucks. People will pay six figures for a truck no problem because the domestics have that brand equity. When it comes to cars nobody wants to spend more than $40-50K MAX on anything "imported from Detroit". Cadillac would have been wise to figure out how to make cars as profitable as possible at that price point than bet the house on $60K 4 banger CTSs nobody wants.
Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.
As a consumer I would take the ATS or CTS over any car being sold by Lincoln. So as a consumer, I like what Cadillac is doing.
The entire Buick brand outsells a lot of these makes.
Youre attempting to make Cadillac totally redundant.
Buick doesnt leverage GM's technologies much; most notably the Volt's PHEV drivetrain. Like r0tor said, in certain very influential circles the hybrid badge is status; enough to convince the kind of folks who would have gambled on W123s in the 70s to buy MKZ hybrids today. Why? They are more luxurious than Prii, and less staid/stodgy than Camrys/ES300hs. Plus Buick is pretty much Opel at this point; Caddy would do better to draw on whatever underpins cars like the Malibu/Impala etc. In the luxury realm customers like SJ GTI and Cougs are few and far between.... hardly enough to design a whole platform/car for.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 06:28:03 AM
Buick doesnt leverage GM's technologies much; most notably the Volt's PHEV drivetrain. Like r0tor said, in certain very influential circles the hybrid badge is status; enough to convince the kind of folks who would have gambled on W123s in the 70s to buy MKZ hybrids today. Why? They are more luxurious than Prii, and less staid/stodgy than Camrys/ES300hs. Plus Buick is pretty much Opel at this point; Caddy would do better to draw on whatever underpins cars like the Malibu/Impala etc. In the luxury realm customers like SJ GTI and Cougs are few and far between.... hardly enough to design a whole platform/car for.
....Buick uses the same power trains that the Malibu and Impala use.
The Encore is a tall sonic with a nice interior.
The LaCrosse and Impala are on the same platform.
same with Regal and Malibu.
Verano and Cruze are the same, the Verano just has a bigger engine.
You keep describing s Buick like product.
It already exists in production - it's cslled fucking Buick.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 01, 2015, 06:07:48 AM
Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.
As a consumer I would take the ATS or CTS over any car being sold by Lincoln. So as a consumer, I like what Cadillac is doing.
:hesaid:
2o6 U are not getting my point. Its not about powertrains, its about hybrids. That hybrid badge has status among the fart huffing tree hugging liberals, and from what I know Buick only has one (Lacrosse).
GM has developed a really good PHEV setup in the Volt.... they should use Cadillac as an opportunity to cash in on that developed technology and remake Cadillac's image. Break out "Escalade" as its own brand like RAM or Range Rover and let Caddy be a futuristic, high design, high content, "green" brand to be the new face of GM's engineering. There is next to no value in the path they have taken... nobody is going to buy the CT6, nobody considers the ATS/CTS legit German competitors (hence the brutal price adjustments), no European would be caught dead in a modern Cadillac. How long does this charade have to go on?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 06:02:54 AM
Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.
The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX).
This is also true of Lexus with the likes of the ES line etc.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 01, 2015, 06:07:48 AM
Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.
Not sure about that, Acura's niche has always been rebadged mainstreamers with nicer interiors and it has worked well enough for many years.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 06:33:13 AM
....Buick uses the same power trains that the Malibu and Impala use.
The Encore is a tall sonic with a nice interior.
The LaCrosse and Impala are on the same platform.
same with Regal and Malibu.
Verano and Cruze are the same, the Verano just has a bigger engine.
You keep describing s Buick like product.
It already exists in production - it's cslled fucking Buick.
Buick doesn't have the pseudo-badge that Lincoln has.
Buick is good for china not the US.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 06:45:37 AM
2o6 U are not getting my point. Its not about powertrains, its about hybrids. That hybrid badge has status among the fart huffing tree hugging liberals, and from what I know Buick only has one (Lacrosse).
GM has developed a really good PHEV setup in the Volt.... they should use Cadillac as an opportunity to cash in on that developed technology and remake Cadillac's image. Break out "Escalade" as its own brand like RAM or Range Rover and let Caddy be a futuristic, high design, high content, "green" brand to be the new face of GM's engineering. There is next to no value in the path they have taken... nobody is going to buy the CT6, nobody considers the ATS/CTS legit German competitors (hence the brutal price adjustments), no European would be caught dead in a modern Cadillac. How long does this charade have to go on?
.....the Volt is a new hybrid setup. And it's not really workable in a larger application. (Until now)
A lot of the battery tech and other things on the volt were and are standalone and can't be scaled to another architecture (t shaped battery)
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:00:14 AM
Buick doesn't have the pseudo-badge that Lincoln has.
Buick is good for china not the US.
Buick is great for the U.S.
Buick has been outselling Acura, Audi, and pretty much everyone except BMW and Lexus.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 06:54:43 AM
This is also true of Lexus with the likes of the ES line etc.
Yep, Ive said as much. Lexus sells 300K cars in the US on average. Im not even kidding when I say ~200K of those are ESs and RXs. ES/RX outsell Cadillac. Maybe "fighting with the Germans" is a dream a lot of Caddy fans have but if I was running a car company my objective would be to make money. ES/RX havent killed Lexus cred; they are actually core components of their identity. Rebadges can work fine for "legit" luxury brands.
I am neither a fan of Caddy nor do I run a car company.
But again, as a consumer, I prefer what Cadillac is doing. Hope they keep doing it and getting better at it. Competition means better cars. If BMW's keep getting softer and Audi's keep getting bigger, could easily see myself in an ATS at some point.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 07:14:19 AM
Yep, Ive said as much. Lexus sells 300K cars in the US on average. Im not even kidding when I say ~200K of those are ESs and RXs. ES/RX outsell Cadillac. Maybe "fighting with the Germans" is a dream a lot of Caddy fans have but if I was running a car company my objective would be to make money. ES/RX havent killed Lexus cred; they are actually core components of their identity. Rebadges can work fine for "legit" luxury brands.
What you're offering and proposing would have GM creating redundant product, which is what got them in trouble in the first place. You want Cadillac to make the LaCrosse and Regal for no good reason.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 07:03:18 AM
Buick is great for the U.S.
Buick has been outselling Acura, Audi, and pretty much everyone except BMW and Lexus.
Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.
You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:33:25 AM
Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.
You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.
You been in any modern Buicks? They're pretty strong products and have been getting better.
As comparable to Lincoln and Acura. Reviews and sales say so...
The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.
Yes, I have, and they are nice, but moving a mainstream brand to the true luxury level is easier said than done. Reviews of caddys are great, but that hasn't translated into sales on the MB-BMW-Lexus levels and buick as a mainstream brand is only selling ~200K a year, hardly worth writing home about. China keeps buick going.
You are delusional if you think that buick is perceived on the same level as acura.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 07:41:01 AM
The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.
Exactly, it is not a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate in the same vein as Acura or Lincoln or Inifiniti.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:33:25 AM
Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.
You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.
Acura shot itself in the foot when it outsourced that horrible 9-speed automatic. They soiled their reputation.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 06:02:54 AM
Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.
Cadillac? Throwing good dollars after the bad.
Yea, the Escalade and XTS outsell the Navigator and MKS. But the MKZ outsells the ATS. Cadillac has no answer for the MKC which is in a hot growing segment. Most importantly though every car Lincoln has for sale makes money. Caddy is losing money on every ATS/CTS sold. GM will never recoup on the Alpha platform. What good is volume when you're giving cars away?
The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX). When it comes to domestic brands, luxury comes in the form of trucks. People will pay six figures for a truck no problem because the domestics have that brand equity. When it comes to cars nobody wants to spend more than $40-50K MAX on anything "imported from Detroit". Cadillac would have been wise to figure out how to make cars as profitable as possible at that price point than bet the house on $60K 4 banger CTSs nobody wants.
6 figures for a pickup?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 01, 2015, 06:07:48 AM
Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.
As a consumer I would take the ATS or CTS over any car being sold by Lincoln. So as a consumer, I like what Cadillac is doing.
To be fair, Ford is doing a lot more than just rebadging mainstreamers. The MKZ shares platform and engines, but everything else about the car is completely different and the luxury and options are significantly pumped up. If Ford didn't publicly state the MKZ shares a platform with the Fusion, nobody would even know.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 01, 2015, 07:21:09 AM
I am neither a fan of Caddy nor do I run a car company.
But again, as a consumer, I prefer what Cadillac is doing. Hope they keep doing it and getting better at it. Competition means better cars. If BMW's keep getting softer and Audi's keep getting bigger, could easily see myself in an ATS at some point.
Thats fair to a large degree. I still think BMWs can be fun. You just have to invest a little bit into them. Coilovers and regular non run flat tires and a JB4 chip. Good to go. BMW's problems are easily remidied. Cadillac's, not so much. For example I am just not at the point in my life where I will daily an automatic. Also not crazy about committing to 50 large for a car w/a 4 banger. So just from that, despite Caddy pitching to enthusiasts, they lost me. Also hard to go w/an NA 6 when a turbo 6 is so much more efficient/brutal. Etc. Caddy doesnt really have an answer for a 335i 6MT which would be my bedgrudged pick in this segment.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 07:41:01 AM
The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.
And Toyota is several tiers below Lexus. But Lexus' biggest sellers are the ES and RX. With enough separation, content and performance rebadges are fine for luxury brands. Platforms are irrelevant... nobody cares really as long as the cars are good values. Alpha platform cars are not good values at MSRP at all.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 08:32:34 AM
Thats fair to a large degree. I still think BMWs can be fun. You just have to invest a little bit into them. Coilovers and regular non run flat tires and a JB4 chip. Good to go. BMW's problems are easily remidied. Cadillac's, not so much. For example I am just not at the point in my life where I will daily an automatic. Also not crazy about committing to 50 large for a car w/a 4 banger. So just from that, despite Caddy pitching to enthusiasts, they lost me. Also hard to go w/an NA 6 when a turbo 6 is so much more efficient/brutal. Etc. Caddy doesnt really have an answer for a 335i 6MT which would be my bedgrudged pick in this segment.
And Toyota is several tiers below Lexus. But Lexus' biggest sellers are the ES and RX. With enough separation, content and performance rebadges are fine for luxury brands. Platforms are irrelevant... nobody cares really as long as the cars are good values. Alpha platform cars are not good values at MSRP at all.
BMW has 4 banger for $50K as well. Oh, and BMW's are fun out of the box. You make it sound like you have to replace the suspension entirely to make them fun.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:50:34 AM
Exactly, it is not a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate in the same vein as Acura or Lincoln or Inifiniti.
Verano and ILX are priced nearly identically, Verano outsells it.
TSX and Regal were priced identically. Tsx outsold regal, but regal still sells well (ish)
lacrosse and TL are priced similarly, but TL is a different product.
Acura is readying an Encore fighter....
Acura, Lincoln, and Buick are all on the same plane.
You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste. If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.
Okay, here goes.......
Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade? It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership. I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.
Want to fix Cadillac's image? Drop the Escalade, NOW! Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit. But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done. Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term. What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket. Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis. Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability. Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect. The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell. Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.
Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement. It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three. But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand. No shortcuts, no penny-pinching. Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together. Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.
Yes, in an era when everyone, including Porsche and Jaguar, is adding SUVs to their lineups, Caddy should drop their highly profitable flagship SUV.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:48:37 AM
Yes, I have, and they are nice, but moving a mainstream brand to the true luxury level is easier said than done. Reviews of caddys are great, but that hasn't translated into sales on the MB-BMW-Lexus levels and buick as a mainstream brand is only selling ~200K a year, hardly worth writing home about. China keeps buick going.
You are delusional if you think that buick is perceived on the same level as acura.
200k a year is a lot of cars.
Last year Buick sold 229k cars. More than 60k more than Acura, Audi and far more than Lincoln.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:20:19 AM
You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste. If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.
Okay, here goes.......
Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade? It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership. I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.
Want to fix Cadillac's image? Drop the Escalade, NOW! Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit. But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done. Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term. What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket. Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis. Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability. Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect. The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell. Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.
Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement. It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three. But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand. No shortcuts, no penny-pinching. Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together. Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.
This is the worst idea of the bunch.
Quote from: MX793 on April 01, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Yes, in an era when everyone, including Porsche and Jaguar, is adding SUVs to their lineups, Caddy should drop their highly profitable flagship SUV.
I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs. Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers. The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:30:22 AM
I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs. Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers. The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.
Only you don't like the Escalade.
The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 09:33:34 AM
The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.
M Class and X5 buyers don't care about towing and neither do most luxury SUV buyers.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 09:33:34 AM
The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.
Yes. Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 09:26:16 AM
200k a year is a lot of cars.
Last year Buick sold 229k cars. More than 60k more than Acura, Audi and far more than Lincoln.
Of course it sells more it is a mainstream brand, nobody would expect otherwise.
So the base acura ILX is outsold by a buick, why is that surprising, any number of pricey small cars from VW, audi, minis etc can be considered ILX competitors.
Someday Buick might be on par with Acura and Lincoln but it isn't now.
Quote from: MX793 on April 01, 2015, 09:40:44 AM
Yes. Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.
And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever. And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:30:22 AM
I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs. Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers. The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.
You see as many rapper thugs in Mercedes, Bentleys, Land Rovers, and BMWs as you do Escalades. The car doesn't have any more of an image problem than anything else out there.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:20:19 AM
You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste. If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.
Okay, here goes.......
Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade? It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership. I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.
Want to fix Cadillac's image? Drop the Escalade, NOW! Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit. But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done. Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term. What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket. Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis. Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability. Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect. The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell. Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.
Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement. It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three. But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand. No shortcuts, no penny-pinching. Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together. Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.
This is quintessential self-unaware armchair brand direction. "Caddy should drop its highest volume most profitable model because it offends my clueless tastes :cry:"
And for the record, Escalade ESVs are the DE FACTO family ride of Park Avenue old money families. It's taking a lot out of me not to call u a fucking idiot.
At $70-$90K for a warmed over tahoe suburban with a stick axle it would be stupid to axe this model, it is by far their cash cow.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 09:42:45 AM
Of course it sells more it is a mainstream brand, nobody would expect otherwise.
So the base acura ILX is outsold by a buick, why is that surprising, any number of pricey small cars from VW, audi, minis etc can be considered ILX competitors.
Someday Buick might be on par with Acura and Lincoln but it isn't now.
Base to base, the Verano and ILX are identically priced! So are the Regal and TSX. and Lacrosse and TL.
How can you not understand that.
Acuras aren't that nice inside, and they generally have a bad case of Honda road noise. most buicks are whisper quiet with great interiors.
Buick is a luxury make.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:43:59 AM
And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever. And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.
Nope. The Escalade is rated to tow more, and some models even come with s trailer brake system.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
This is quintessential self-unaware armchair brand direction. "Caddy should drop its highest volume most profitable model because it offends my clueless tastes :cry:"
And for the record, Escalade ESVs are the DE FACTO family ride of Park Avenue old money families. It's taking a lot out of me not to call u a fucking idiot.
My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to. These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want. NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.
In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.
Lincoln isn't making that much - how can you turn your nose up at Buick when all of their models are tarted up FWD fords? That's exactly what Buick is doing, but not even as executed as well. The MKZ is a a Fusion. MXC, an Escape. MKT - Explorer, and MKS, a shitty Taurus. MKS's sales are vanquished by the Lacrosse which is nicer, and the MKT can't hold a candle to the Enclave...
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:52:58 AM
My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to. These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want. NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.
In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.
Uh huh, yeah ok.
The amount of people here that pass on X5's because they can't tow is actually higher than you'd think.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 09:31:52 AM
Only you don't like the Escalade.
No. I hate the Escalade too. A lot of people do. It's a pimpmobile.
Quote from: MX793 on April 01, 2015, 09:40:44 AM
Yes. Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.
The rich people I see towing horse trailers are driving $80K F-350s or Silverado 3500s.
Quote from: MX793 on April 01, 2015, 09:44:18 AM
You see as many rapper thugs in Mercedes, Bentleys, Land Rovers, and BMWs as you do Escalades. The car doesn't have any more of an image problem than anything else out there.
The Escalade is all about Bling! It does have an image problem.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 31, 2015, 06:48:05 PM
Lincoln is garbage.
They don't make a single product worth a damn, except maybe the MKC and MKZ.
You have to admit though, the continental is an interesting proposal....until they tacked on that God awful nose and stuck a V6 in it...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 01, 2015, 06:02:54 AM
Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.
Cadillac? Throwing good dollars after the bad.
Yea, the Escalade and XTS outsell the Navigator and MKS. But the MKZ outsells the ATS. Cadillac has no answer for the MKC which is in a hot growing segment. Most importantly though every car Lincoln has for sale makes money. Caddy is losing money on every ATS/CTS sold. GM will never recoup on the Alpha platform. What good is volume when you're giving cars away?
The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX). When it comes to domestic brands, luxury comes in the form of trucks. People will pay six figures for a truck no problem because the domestics have that brand equity. When it comes to cars nobody wants to spend more than $40-50K MAX on anything "imported from Detroit". Cadillac would have been wise to figure out how to make cars as profitable as possible at that price point than bet the house on $60K 4 banger CTSs nobody wants.
Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.
So how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.
And you have the gall to call Madman unaware ;).
Besides, i don't think Alpha is totally bespoke. Wouldn't be surprised if it shares some engineering roots with other GM platforms
Quote from: GoCougs on April 01, 2015, 11:12:50 AM
Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.
So how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.
And you have the gall to call Madman unaware ;).
ATS has $12K in rebates and the CTS has $17K right now.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 09:52:47 AM
Base to base, the Verano and ILX are identically priced! So are the Regal and TSX. and Lacrosse and TL.
How can you not understand that.
Acuras aren't that nice inside, and they generally have a bad case of Honda road noise. most buicks are whisper quiet with great interiors.
Buick is a luxury make.
Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.
How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.
It takes time.
Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.
How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.
It takes time.
Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.
You're not actually saying a reason besides "it is not."
Lincoln also has a lot of fleet sales.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:43:59 AM
And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever. And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.
Sure, they keep their boats at the marina if they only want to sail on one body of water. I live within an hour drive of 4 large (60+ square mile) lakes, including one of the Great Lakes, with another 4 smaller lakes within the same driving range. Lots of folks take their boats to multiple lakes through the season.
Quote from: Madman on April 01, 2015, 09:52:58 AM
My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to. These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want. NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.
In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.
Dawg I spent 3 years living 2 blocks from and working on Park Avenue, one of if not THE richest street in America. I used to ride my motorcycle up Park for my commute home from the financial district up to where those executives live. I dont have to talk to anybody, I saw it... seas of Escalade ESVs shuttling execs around or dropping kids off at private schools. They were just as abundant as the S Class. Actually, the combined sales of the regular and ESV Escalades were higher than the S-Class. Thats right, the Escalade outsold the current benchmark of luxury for similar $$$$$$!!!!!
Perception is indeed everything in the luxury realm. An ESV with a chauffer is a huge expression of wealth and luxury. If anything, to people in the know at least, the shadow cast by the Escalade should be helpful. But everything thats great about the Escalade- big V8, expansive interior, practical body- is absent from the ATS/CTS. ATS/CTS would do well to adopt some of what has made the Escalade so successful.
Not to mention ur talks to a handful of people is specific to your circle of friends in your area. Sales stats across the country don't jive with your statistically insignificant anecdotes.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.
How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.
It takes time.
Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.
Buick is definitely on the same level as Acura, and in terms of interiors, luxury, and NVH, they are far ahead of Acura.
Plus Buick has wifi! :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on April 01, 2015, 11:12:50 AM
Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.
U still miss the point bro. MKZ and ATS are 2 different ways for folks to spend ~$40-50K on an American luxury sedan. More people go for the MKZ, just as the ES outsells the IS 3 to 1. On top of that the ES' field is hardly crowded, which is how the MKZ was able to take a steady 30K chunk out of its market annually over the last decade.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 01, 2015, 11:12:50 AMSo how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.
And you have the gall to call Madman unaware ;).
The ATS/CTS are selling below dealer invoice with additional 5 figure cash incentives on top. GM thinks if it keeps this operation afloat people will eventually think the cars are worth asking price, despite the fact that in reality now everyone knows and values the ATS/CTS at transaction prices, not MSRP. The info is all out there bro.
You want Cadillac to build a Lacrosse, which makes no sense.
No, dont tell me what I want and make it convenient to your argument. I dont want Cadillac to lose money building canyon carvers nobody cares about. The FWD based hybrid is just an idea. But what would be wrong with a Lacrosse based flaghsip that had a hybrid powertrain and a ton of style in and out, vs the CT6?
A FWD based large car would be a Lacrosse. GM would have three of the same car running around, and it wouldn't work. Hybridizing an XTS won't do shit, especially since hybrids aren't generally the volume sellers in the model line, nor would they make any money. Good hybrids are expensive.
XTS is bombing because it's ugly. It's probably too late now as I bet the front wheel to pedal box/firewall relationship is fixed, but the XTS would look a lot better if they just gave it more metal between the front wheels and the front doors. That, along with a lower shoulder line and a more interesting body shape would go a long way. Look at how the A7 manages all those parameters despite having a similarly nose heavy design. It can work. And thats just a suggestion, not the only way I think will work... but based on historical evidence and current market conditions that seems to be the best way forward to me. What do YOU suggest?
Quote from: 2o6 on April 01, 2015, 11:56:40 AM
You're not actually saying a reason besides "it is not."
Lincoln also has a lot of fleet sales.
Lincoln is not acura, and yes it has fleet sales.
Buick may have cars that are you believe are better than acura, and in many cases that wouldn't be hard.
However acceptance as a true 2cnd tier luxury maker (perception) is a tough road to travel, IMO, they have a long way to go.
Maybe to you they are, you are young and don't remember redneck grand nationals as their flagship.
Quote from: SVT666 on April 01, 2015, 12:00:46 PM
Buick is definitely on the same level as Acura, and in terms of interiors, luxury, and NVH, they are far ahead of Acura.
I find it hard to ever argue on Acura's behalf, they have made one good car that was left to languish. However, to say that the the buick badge all of a sudden is on the same level of Acura (a brand that was launched as upscale 30 yrs ago) and has built brand cache only as a luxury automaker only is absurd.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 01, 2015, 07:18:40 PM
I find it hard to ever argue on Acura's behalf, they have made one good car that was left to languish. However, to say that the the buick badge all of a sudden is on the same level of Acura (a brand that was launched as upscale 30 yrs ago) and has built brand cache only as a luxury automaker only is absurd.
People are talking about Buick as a car to strive for again. I've heard them. My boss' wife for one.
Quote from: SVT666 on April 01, 2015, 07:23:38 PM
People are talking about Buick as a car to strive for again. I've heard them. My boss' wife for one.
I have never heard anything even remotely close to that before. Although I will say, their products are pretty damn good.
I don't think the Escalade has any image problem. I see lots of them where I live which is a very Waspy area, and they aren't being driven by rappers or athletes. I agree with 12,000 RPM that something has to fundamentally change with Cadillac and it's sedans/coupes. I don't think taking Lincoln's route with heavy rebadging is a solution but I don't think trying to emulate the Germans, which is what they've been trying to do, is workable either. I think they should try a middle road. Concentrate on beautiful design, class leading interiors both in terms of design and materials, and make the interiors cavernous. Make something which looks and feels as good and as large as an E or S class Mercedes, put a big engine in it so it can go fast in a straight line, and then significantly undercut the price of the Mercedes. There's no reason you have to compete with BMW on a track. That demographic is not interested in your cars.
I'd like Cadillac to go the way of Bently and Buick to go the way of Lexus
Quote from: veeman on April 03, 2015, 01:09:09 AM
I don't think the Escalade has any image problem. I see lots of them where I live which is a very Waspy area, and they aren't being driven by rappers or athletes. I agree with 12,000 RPM that something has to fundamentally change with Cadillac and it's sedans/coupes. I don't think taking Lincoln's route with heavy rebadging is a solution but I don't think trying to emulate the Germans, which is what they've been trying to do, is workable either. I think they should try a middle road. Concentrate on beautiful design, class leading interiors both in terms of design and materials, and make the interiors cavernous. Make something which looks and feels as good and as large as an E or S class Mercedes, put a big engine in it so it can go fast in a straight line, and then significantly undercut the price of the Mercedes. There's no reason you have to compete with BMW on a track. That demographic is not interested in your cars.
The need to undercut Mercedes on price is a de facto admission of inferiority on the part of Cadillac. You're not a legitimate premium brand unless you are able to command premium prices for your product and that's something Cadillac, in its current state, is simply unable to do. This situation will not change until Cadillac brings the product, the image and the dealership experience up to world-class standards.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on April 03, 2015, 02:07:57 AM
I'd like Cadillac to go the way of Bently and Buick to go the way of Lexus
That's sort of the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. Cadillac needs to make up for the horrors and bad memories of the 1980s and 1990s by taking the brand upmarket and trading on exclusivity. Until then, it will always be considered nothing more than a cut-price German imitator.
Quote from: Madman on April 03, 2015, 05:02:38 AM
The need to undercut Mercedes on price is a de facto admission of inferiority on the part of Cadillac. You're not a legitimate premium brand unless you are able to command premium prices for your product and that's something Cadillac, in its current state, is simply unable to do. This situation will not change until Cadillac brings the product, the image and the dealership experience up to world-class standards.
That's sort of the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. Cadillac needs to make up for the horrors and bad memories of the 1980s and 1990s by taking the brand upmarket and trading on exclusivity. Until then, it will always be considered nothing more than a cut-price German imitator.
I think the bolded part is a legit problem. The only dealership that sells Cadillac near me is actually just a Chevy dealer that happens to sell Cadillac on the side.
If I had to guess, though, GM is restricted in what it can do with dealerships due to franchise laws.
Quote from: Madman on April 03, 2015, 05:02:38 AM
The need to undercut Mercedes on price is a de facto admission of inferiority on the part of Cadillac. You're not a legitimate premium brand unless you are able to command premium prices for your product and that's something Cadillac, in its current state, is simply unable to do. This situation will not change until Cadillac brings the product, the image and the dealership experience up to world-class standards.
That's sort of the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. Cadillac needs to make up for the horrors and bad memories of the 1980s and 1990s by taking the brand upmarket and trading on exclusivity. Until then, it will always be considered nothing more than a cut-price German imitator.
I wouldn't say it's inferiority. Let's just be frank- BMW & Mercedes' offerings are better suited to the markets than what Cadillac has brought. Yes, the ATS/CTS prove a lot about GM's capacity to build good cars. But they also prove GM doesn't have a clue what makes the luxury markets tick. Caddy's cars are dynamically sharper, but BMW/MB's cars are roomier, faster, more fuel efficient and easier to operate. What's more relevant to the average person a higher percent of the time?
And where upmarket can they go? The higher up you go in price the more and more the intangibles like brand and H&H matter. Caddy has none. Naw, if they want to maximize profit they should play in that $40-50K range and leverage their hybrid tech. Supposedly the CT6 will be unveiling the PHEV variant they claimed the whole CT6 line would be at the Bejing Auto Show. So they are sort of getting a clue. They need to punch out the back seats and toss CUE in the garbage next. And dial back the anonymity by 100,000%.
Interesting discussion, in the main. Too many points have been brought up to talk about in any real way, but I do want to remark on one thing said.
My sister and her husband have horses and a boat, and the X5 they had was absolutely not up to the task of pulling either. Just too flimsy and light. They still loved it, but not for towing. They got rid of the X5 and got an amazingly equipped Tahoe, which was terrific for trips, but still not great for towing a trailer with two horses in it. Now they have a huge new Silverado 2500HD, which does the towing. BTW, they also recently got a new Mercedes C class for the family car, and love it. They traded their XTS for it.
One other small point: their boat is a fresh water boat, and they do not want to leave it in the water full time. Too much wear and tear. It still looks new, and they want to keep it that way.
Yea, shits expensive. My buddy has a boat, that's enough for me.
Yeah, I can easily pay for a slip for my boat, but for the 5 minutes it takes to drop it in and take out, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that I can have the boat at home to clean it out after a weekend of waterskiing is priceless.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 03, 2015, 11:51:53 AM
Yea, shits expensive. My buddy has a boat, that's enough for me.
The two happiest days in a boat owners life is the day he buys the boat and the day he sells it!
I'm still trying to talk my SO out of boat ownership. :(
Maybe a houseboat the way RE looks over there :lol:
Solar powered desalinator :mask: I might be on to something :hmm:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 03, 2015, 04:03:04 PM
The two happiest days in a boat owners life is the day he buys the boat and the day he sells it!
I've had one repair in the three years I've had my boat. My parents, on the other hand, had boat trouble on an almost weekly basis.
Quote from: SVT666 on April 03, 2015, 07:47:55 PM
I've had one repair in the three years I've had my boat. My parents, on the other hand, had boat trouble on an almost weekly basis.
You've been lucky! Last summer my cousin picked up a brand new boat and that damn thing left us stranded on the lake on back to back days! The first day the boat ran fine! But the second day the ignition switch went bad and the next day the fuel pump died! Each time we had to pull it back to Traverse City MI which is an 1.5 hour drive from my cabin! :rage: I won't go into the head aches our jet ski gives us! :facepalm:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 04, 2015, 09:47:41 AM
You've been lucky! Last summer my cousin picked up a brand new boat and that damn thing left us stranded on the lake on back to back days! The first day the boat ran fine! But the second day the ignition switch went bad and the next day the fuel pump died! Each time we had to pull it back to Traverse City MI which is an 1.5 hour drive from my cabin! :rage: I won't go into the head aches our jet ski gives us! :facepalm:
I do all the proper maintenance and I always start the boat before I put it in the water so I'm not one of those assholes who didn't know his battery was dead and end up blocking the boat launch for an hour.
Last year my cousin ran into a sand bar that wasn't marked with his boat. Had to rebuilt the bottom of the leg and replace the prop. Luckily there was no other damage.
Wrong thread