And I drove another Mustang GT. My sentiments don't seem to have changed. I like it, but I'm not sure it's for me.
But that's not what I want to talk about.
There was a Shelby GT500 convertible, no stripes, for sale on the floor. 51K. Nice price.
Looking further at the sticker, I noticed a market adjustment.
$20,000.
That's fucking ridiculous. What's the point of a performance bargain if it's not a bargain anymore?
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=10801.msg548558#msg548558 date=1188012652
And I drove another Mustang GT.? My sentiments don't seem to have changed.? I like it, but I'm not sure it's for me.?
But that's not what I want to talk about.?
There was a Shelby GT500 convertible, no stripes, for sale on the floor.? 51K.? Nice price.
Looking further at the sticker, I noticed a market adjustment.
$20,000.
That's fucking ridiculous.? What's the point of a performance bargain if it's not a bargain anymore??
Agreed. Ford needs to institute a no-gouging policy to keep some of these dealers in check.
A good swift kick to the balls for every $1000 over sticker should be just about right.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 09:33:10 PM
Agreed. Ford needs to institute a no-gouging policy to keep some of these dealers in check.
A good swift kick to the balls for every $1000 over sticker should be just about right.
I was doing that. I got to $11000 and they threw me out.
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=10801.msg548558#msg548558 date=1188012652
There was a Shelby GT500 convertible, no stripes, for sale on the floor.?
Stripes are not available on the GT500 Vert anyway. The reason? The original GT500 vert didn't get them either.
Quote51K.? Nice price.
Looking further at the sticker, I noticed a market adjustment.
$20,000.
That's fucking ridiculous.? What's the point of a performance bargain if it's not a bargain anymore??
Yup, and I get lambasted by people on this forum every time I complain about dealer markups.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 24, 2007, 09:52:26 PM
Stripes are not available on the GT500 Vert anyway. The reason? The original GT500 vert didn't get them either.
Yup, and I get lambasted by people on this forum every time I complain about dealer markups.
(Didn't know that about the stripes. Thought they were available!)
Not by me. I'm one of those "if you pay sticker, you lose" types. If a dealer wanted me to pay a markup, I'd politely remove my pants, piss on their leg and shit on their floor, and wipe my ass with a brochure on my way out.
You can get the stripes as a dealer installed option
Quote from: TBR on August 24, 2007, 11:20:58 PM
You can get the stripes as a dealer installed option
I'm sure you could find a dealer who'd put a full gold insignia package and a continental kit on one for you too.
Why would anyone pay $70k for a GT500 when you can actually get a Z06 for sticker at the same price?
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:25:50 PM
Why would anyone pay $70k for a GT500 when you can actually get a Z06 for sticker at the same price?
Z06 doesn't come with racing stripes :rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:26:41 PM
Z06 doesn't come with racing stripes :rolleyes:
You can get them as a dealer installed option. :rolleyes:
This does bring up a good question, though. The Z06 is a high-demand car for the semi-rich. Why aren't prices of them being inflated?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 11:29:40 PM
You can get them as a dealer installed option. :rolleyes:
But... but, the Z06 doesn't have a giant hood scoop! :devil:
I meant they are an official Ford accessory.
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:32:09 PM
But... but, the Z06 doesn't have a giant hood scoop!? :devil:
You can get one as a dealer installed accessory.
Quote from: TBR on August 24, 2007, 11:32:46 PM
I meant they are an official Ford accessory.
I know. I'm just an ass.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:31:38 PM
This does bring up a good question, though.? The Z06 is a high-demand car for the semi-rich.? Why aren't prices of them being inflated?
They're just Corvettes.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 11:34:25 PM
They're just Corvettes.
And GT500s are just Mustangs...except they weigh a lot more.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:38:56 PM
And GT500s are just Mustangs...except they weigh a lot more.
You asked for an explanation about the Corvettes.
I have no explanation about the Mustangs.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 11:33:28 PM
You can get one as a dealer installed accessory.
But can you get a Mustang Shelby GT500 badge as a dealer installed accessory for you Z06? :rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:44:12 PM
But can you get a Mustang Shelby GT500 badge as a dealer installed accessory for you Z06? :rolleyes:
You're all about automotive cross-mojonation, aren't you?
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:45:20 PM
You're all about automotive cross-mojonation, aren't you?
No, I'm just trying to come up with a reason to pay $70k for a GT500 over a Z06! :P
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:44:12 PM
But can you get a Mustang Shelby GT500 badge as a dealer installed accessory for you Z06?? :rolleyes:
Yes, but not the Chevy dealer. You have to go down to the Ford dealer and buy a Shelby GT500. Then tell them to remove the badges on put them on your Z06. If you want, they will also pull the Chevrolet corvette Z06 badges off the Vette and put them on your Mustang.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 11:46:27 PM
Yes, but not the Chevy dealer. You have to go down to the Ford dealer and buy a Shelby GT500. Then tell them to remove the badges on put them on your Z06. If you want, they will also pull the Chevrolet corvette Z06 badges off the Vette and put them on your Mustang.
That would be a super way to spend $140,000! :praise:
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:47:01 PM
That would be a super way to spend $140,000! :praise:
Or you could buy a 911 Turbo. That would work, too.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:49:26 PM
Or you could buy a 911 Turbo.? That would work, too.
Or I could buy 10 Suzuki Renos and tease Raza with them? :huh:
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:49:26 PM
Or you could buy a 911 Turbo.? That would work, too.
But it wouldn't have Shelby GT500 badges on it, what's the point?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 11:50:34 PM
But it wouldn't have Shelby GT500 badges on it, what's the point?
You could spend $5 more at Office Max and buy vinyl letters and spell out GT500. It might be able to fool someone.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
You could spend $5 more at Office Max and buy vinyl letters and spell out GT500. It might be able to fool someone.
I'd prefer a "Type-R" decal on either car, that way everybody knows what they're dealing with. :mask:
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:46:02 PM
No, I'm just trying to come up with a reason to pay $70k for a GT500 over a Z06!? :P
GT500s when they first showed up in dealerships were going for $100,000 up here.....and people were buying them. You can get them for $85,000 now....which is still $30,000 over MSRP.
I don't see the problem people have with dealer markups. It wouldn't happen if people wouldn't pay those prices.
IMO you'd have to be insane to pay above MSRP for a GT500. Neither its availability nor its performance warrants it.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:38:56 PM
And GT500s are just Mustangs...except they weigh a lot more.
One word: "Shelby".
Slap that on a Mustang and you may as well tell people the car is made from gold. Rich baby boomers are willing to fork out big bucks to live the dreams of owning a Shelby Mustang that they had as kids.
Quote from: Catman on August 25, 2007, 05:50:05 AM
I'd prefer a "Type-R" decal on either car, that way everybody knows what they're dealing with. :mask:
rofl!!!
Quote from: Catman on August 25, 2007, 05:50:05 AM
I'd prefer a "Type-R" decal on either car, that way everybody knows what they're dealing with. :mask:
Type-R works, if you pee sitting down. NOS, on the other hand, strikes the fear of god into supercars and exotics alike.
Everything we buy is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2007, 08:34:06 AM
I don't see the problem people have with dealer markups. It wouldn't happen if people wouldn't pay those prices.
IMO you'd have to be insane to pay above MSRP for a GT500. Neither its availability nor its performance warrants it.
Yeah because there are so many cars out there for the same price or less that can do the 1/4 mile in 12.25 seconds. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Zcarnut on August 25, 2007, 11:09:49 AM
Everything we buy is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
Law of supply and demand. Agreed.
Quote from: NACar on August 24, 2007, 11:50:23 PM
Or I could buy 10 Suzuki Renos and tease Raza with them :huh:
Damn you!
Quote from: TheIntrepid on August 25, 2007, 11:55:06 AM
Law of supply and demand. Agreed.
Absolutely. People don't understand why a Z06 commands MSRP and the GT500 sells for $20 or $30K more then MSRP which puts it above the price of a Z06, but the thing is there are obviously more people out there who want a GT500 then there is who want a Z06. I know that will be hard for some people to take, but it's the truth. The Mustang is more desireable. :P
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 12:00:12 PM
Absolutely.? People don't understand why a Z06 commands MSRP and the GT500 sells for $20 or $30K more then MSRP which puts it above the price of a Z06, but the thing is there are obviously more people out there who want a GT500 then there is who want a Z06.? I know that will be hard for some people to take, but it's the truth.? The Mustang is more desireable. :P
Personally, I tend to prefer the GT500. Sure the Z06 will run circles around one, as well as half the Porsche lineup, but the Mustang is simply good looking and classic on so many levels. It has a presence like few other cars on the road today, and frankly it ain't slow either.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 11:53:46 AM
Yeah because there are so many cars out there for the same price or less that can do the 1/4 mile in 12.25 seconds. :rolleyes:
Yes but that and looking good are about the only thing the car does really well. It's better suited to the boulevard and drag strip than anything else. It's probably the best bang for the buck as far as four-seaters go but for performance car their are better choices.
Quote from: JYODER240 on August 25, 2007, 12:29:07 PM
Yes but that and looking good are about the only thing the car does really well. It's better suited to the boulevard and drag strip than anything else. It's probably the best bang for the buck as far as four-seaters go but for performance car their are better choices.
Maybe so, but people want the GT500 more....obviously.
Quote from: R-inge on August 25, 2007, 12:09:58 PM
Personally, I tend to prefer the GT500.? Sure the Z06 will run circles around one, as well as half ALL of the Porsche lineup, but the Mustang is simply good looking and classic on so many levels.? It has a presence like few other cars on the road today, and frankly it ain't slow either.
There. Fixed.
If I was in the market for a $70,000 GT, I would buy the Z06 over the GT500. However, I woulf buy a GT500 and skip the Vette altogether if I won the lottery. If that makes sense.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 12:41:02 PM
Maybe so, but people want the GT500 more....obviously.
I wouldn't argue with that. For the average buyer it's a good choice. Image, lots of hp, practical, and comfortable. But if you're looking for performance and a fun, involving drive there are better choices for the 40-65k you'll end up paying.
Quote from: JYODER240 on August 25, 2007, 12:44:58 PM
I wouldn't argue with that. For the average buyer it's a good choice. Image, lots of hp, practical, and comfortable. But if you're looking for performance and a fun, involving drive there are better choices for the 40-65k you'll end up paying.
Never said there wasn't. We're talking about dealer markups which desireability, not what's a better performer.
Quote from: JYODER240 on August 25, 2007, 12:44:58 PM
I wouldn't argue with that. For the average buyer it's a good choice. Image, lots of hp, practical, and comfortable. But if you're looking for performance and a fun, involving drive there are better choices for the 40-65k you'll end up paying.
ir0nically, you can get 0% financing through Ford on a GT500 :confused:
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2007, 01:24:40 PM
ir0nically, you can get 0% financing through Ford on a GT500? :confused:
Not here.? Lease is 10.3% and Finance is 7.8%
EDIT:? The monthly payments on a GT500 at an MSRP of $56,000 are the same as my mortgage. :confused:
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 01:02:09 PM
Never said there wasn't.? We're talking about dealer markups which desireability, not what's a better performer.
Not really. Gocougs brought up that the GT500's performance is worth paying over sticker for. You said, "Yeah because there are so many cars out there for the same price or less that can do the 1/4 mile in 12.25 seconds."
In reality you can get superior acceleration and better all-around performance for the same price ;) :tounge:
Quote from: JYODER240 on August 25, 2007, 02:36:06 PM
Not really. Gocougs brought up that the GT500's performance is worth paying over sticker for. You said, "Yeah because there are so many cars out there for the same price or less that can do the 1/4 mile in 12.25 seconds."
In reality you can get superior acceleration and better all-around performance for the same price ;) :tounge:
At $70K I agree. But at $50K I don't.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 01:45:22 PM
Not here.? Lease is 10.3% and Finance is 7.8%
EDIT:? The monthly payments on a GT500 at an MSRP of $56,000 are the same as my mortgage. :confused:
autoweek said 0% :huh:
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 01:45:22 PM
Not here. Lease is 10.3% and Finance is 7.8%
EDIT: The monthly payments on a GT500 at an MSRP of $56,000 are the same as my mortgage. :confused:
Those are the highest I've ever seen for any car :mask:
Those are the rates for the Mustang GT and the GT500 for the 2008 models, and I got them right off the Ford of Canada website.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 03:06:43 PM
At $70K I agree.? But at $50K I don't.
I'm thinking there might
one car... ;)
Just paying 50K here for a GT is ridiculous, don't even want to see how much for a GT500.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 25, 2007, 07:29:55 PM
I'm thinking there might one car... ;)
One car. But there aren't any others that I can think of. Besides, the Vette is a car that most buyers are passing up to buy a GT500.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 08:01:16 PM
One car.? But there aren't any others that I can think of.? Besides, the Vette is a car that most buyers are passing up to buy a GT500.
Is that conjecture, or has somebody looked into this matter already?
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 08:01:16 PM
One car. But there aren't any others that I can think of. Besides, the Vette is a car that most buyers are passing up to buy a GT500.
Your whole argument thus far has been based off the fact that rich baby boomers are paying more for the shelby name which they lusted after as kids. So now that there is a care that looks similar to the old gt500's they are willing to pay a premium. But I am willing to bet that if chevy came out with a corvette that looked pretty similar and had some fancy sting ray name or something like that on it there would be the same generation willing to pay an equal premium. What im trying to say is that they are paying for the name and looks of one car that has 0 competition in terms of brining back childhood memories. If there was a corvette that went down the same path as the mustang by "going back to its roots" I think the premiums on gt500's would drop by quite a bit. My .02 :huh:
Quote from: the Teuton on August 24, 2007, 11:31:38 PM
This does bring up a good question, though. The Z06 is a high-demand car for the semi-rich. Why aren't prices of them being inflated?
Because people generally don't drive around shitty 20 year old Corvettes and lust after new ones.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 25, 2007, 11:53:46 AM
Yeah because there are so many cars out there for the same price or less that can do the 1/4 mile in 12.25 seconds. :rolleyes:
Not a chance. The GT500 has been proven to be at best a stock high 12 second car.
The base Corvette with a lower base MSRP (let alone at a $20k premium) is its performance superior in every regard.
We bought a Shelby GT350 and sold it for 52,000. The only reason we bought it was because it was available as part of our allotment....and they were going for 60k on the open market. I have a problem with dealers marking up a car before it is even released, such as during the intro of the Miata, but if the open market price is high, there is no reason for a dealership not to mark it up. Otherwise, someone is only going to buy it and resell it and make the money themselves.
Seriously, if someone walked up to me and offered me 10k for the VW, I'd help them pack it up. I wouldn't argue that I could get less for it and so I'm not selling it.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 26, 2007, 12:35:37 AM
Not a chance. The GT500 has been proven to be at best a stock high 12 second car.
12.25 in MM&FF.
Quote from: Minpin on August 25, 2007, 09:03:13 PM
? ? ? Your whole argument thus far has been based off the fact that rich baby boomers are paying more for the shelby name which they lusted after as kids. So now that there is a care that looks similar to the old gt500's they are willing to pay a premium. But I am willing to bet that if chevy came out with a corvette that looked pretty similar and had some fancy sting ray name or something like that on it there would be the same generation willing to pay an equal premium. What im trying to say is that they are paying for the name and looks of one car that has 0 competition in terms of brining back childhood memories. If there was a corvette that went down the same path as the mustang by "going back to its roots" I think the premiums on gt500's would drop by quite a bit. My .02? :huh:
Who said otherwise? You people seem to think that I am arguing that the GT500 outperforms a Vette and that's why it's outselling it. I never said any such thing. The GT500 is brutal fast on a dragstrip and performs well on the twistys. However, the stock Vette is faster and the Z06 destroys it. That's not the point. The whole premise of this thread is that Raza couldn't believe GT500s are selling for more then Z06s. I am simply explaining why. More people are lusting after the GT500 then the Vette. Pure and Simple.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 07:38:54 AM
12.25 in MM&FF.?
Slipping the clutch and powershifting will yield better numbers on most any MT-equipped car.
Such a time is an outlier because the major auto mags don't abuse their test cars to such a degree.
The LS3 Corvette would probably be into the 11s if driven in such a manner.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 26, 2007, 08:19:27 AM
Slipping the clutch and powershifting will yield better numbers on most any MT-equipped car.
Such a time is an outlier because the major auto mags don't abuse their test cars to such a degree.
The LS3 Corvette would probably be into the 11s if driven in such a manner.
Yup.? MM&FF got the Z51 LS2 Vette into the high 11.9s when they pitted it against the Stage 3 Roush.? I don't care what the mainstream mags get for times, when people who take their cars to the track on a regular basis will slip the clutch and powershift.? That's how fast the car can go.? MM&FF also got the F-Body cars into the 12s when the mainstream mags were getting them into the low 13s....but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the high demand for the GT500 that is causing the dealer markups to reach stratospheric heights.?
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 09:35:32 AM
Yup.? MM&FF got the Z51 LS2 Vette into the high 11.9s when they pitted it against the Stage 3 Roush.? I don't care what the mainstream mags get for times, when people who take their cars to the track on a regular basis will slip the clutch and powershift.? That's how fast the car can go.? MM&FF also got the F-Body cars into the 12s when the mainstream mags were getting them into the low 13s....but that's not what this thread is about.? It's about the high demand for the GT500 that is causing the dealer markups to reach stratospheric heights.?
And my counter to the demand assertion is that the people paying the markups are absolutely absurd, in that there are better performing vehicles for equivalent or less money; the base Corvette being the most poignant example.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 26, 2007, 10:27:32 AM
And my counter to the demand assertion is that the people paying the markups are absolutely absurd, in that there are better performing vehicles for equivalent or less money; the base Corvette being the most poignant example.
It obviously doesn't stir the emotions like the GT500 does. The Mustang, especially with the retro looks, demands attention and people lust after it. Better performing has never equalled better sales.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 12:39:08 PM
It obviously doesn't stir the emotions like the GT500 does.
Not all people in the market for a Corvette are jumping ship to the GT500, which is why your "GT500 sells more than the Corvette so it's a more appealing car" argument isn't a sound one.
Give me some proof other than your opinion and I might believe you.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 26, 2007, 01:28:08 PM
Not all people in the market for a Corvette are jumping ship to the GT500, which is why your "GT500 sells more than the Corvette so it's a more appealing car" argument isn't a sound one.
It's not?? When GT500s are selling for more then a Z06 and there is a waiting list for them, I think that proves that the GT500 is a more appealing car.
EDIT:? I guarantee that if GM puts the very first Blue Devil/Z07/Sting Ray or whatever it's gonna be called on the auction block, it will not go for anywhere near the prices the first GT500 went for.? BTW, it went for $600,000.
To the select group of people willing to spend $70k on a American car the GT500 might be more appealing, but the Z06 is the better car (and, fyi, was getting similar markups when it was first released as well).
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 01:41:00 PM
To the select group of people willing to spend $70k on a American car the GT500 might be more appealing, but the Z06 is the better car (and, fyi, was getting similar markups when it was first released as well).
Those markups didn't last very long.
I never argued that it wasn't a better car.? For shit's sake, does anyone read threads before they post????
The GT500 only stirs my emotions because it is just so totally and completely overrated. Even if the GT500 only cost $40k, I'd spend the extra money for a base-model Corvette. Not everyone wants a lowered truck with too much horsepower, an excessively retro fa?ade, and a bunch of tacked-on scoops, stripes and badges. The Mustang is what it is, and it obviously does good in that respect, but it's no Corvette.
Yes, for shit's sake (how does that make sense), I did. Basically, the GT500 is a baby boomer's car, to nostalgia driven rich white guys it might be appealing but to less biased enthusiasts it is an overweight pig. It looks the part and sounds the part, but it sure as hell doesn't perform the part. In the straightline it is slower compared to the Vette and in turns it just down right fails.
I wanted to like the GT500, I really did (it looks great, I even had a pic of it in my sig for a while). But, the previous Cobra was a better performer and 10 grand cheaper.
Anyone who would pay 100K for a mustang needs his head checked.
There is only one Ford vehicle worth buying IMO, and its worth every penny.
The best that the big three have to offer....
(http://www.edmunds.com/media/advice/specialreports/ford.gt/05.ford.gt.prf2.500.jpg)
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 01:38:35 PM
It's not?? When GT500s are selling for more then a Z06 and there is a waiting list for them, I think that proves that the GT500 is a more appealing car.
I can see your point, but it's difficult to say that when buyers of one car may not necessarily be interested in the other. I do recall the Z06 having some pretty hefty premiums when it came out, but I'd have to look to make sure.
QuoteEDIT:? I guarantee that if GM puts the very first Blue Devil/Z07/Sting Ray or whatever it's gonna be called on the auction block, it will not go for anywhere near the prices the first GT500 went for.? BTW, it went for $600,000.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was case. The GT500 was recreated very much as an homage to its predecessor of several decades ago, and even if the super Corvette is called Sting Ray, it won't be nearly as loyal to the design of the original Sting Ray as the GT500 is to its forebear. The Shelby already had an immensely loyal following, so when Ford created a modernized "copy" of it, it was guaranateed to have an audience right off the bat. The new Corvette won't have the obviously retro styling, and chances are it won't even have a name that's been used with previous great Corvettes. It's basically a brand new model - of course it's not going to go for $600,000.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 26, 2007, 08:19:27 AM
Slipping the clutch and powershifting will yield better numbers on most any MT-equipped car.
Such a time is an outlier because the major auto mags don't abuse their test cars to such a degree.
People who regularly drag their cars competively do though, and honestly, if you're not one of those people, what do those numbers mean to you anyways?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on August 26, 2007, 03:00:36 PM
Anyone who would pay 100K for a mustang needs his head checked.
There is only one Ford vehicle worth buying IMO, and its worth every penny.
The best that the big three have to offer....
(http://www.edmunds.com/media/advice/specialreports/ford.gt/05.ford.gt.prf2.500.jpg)
:drool:
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 01:38:35 PM
It's not?? When GT500s are selling for more then a Z06 and there is a waiting list for them, I think that proves that the GT500 is a more appealing car.
Just because GT500 has a longer waiting list doesn't mean the majority of people find it more appealing. The GT500 even with a markup still usually costs less than a Z06. There could as be less GT500s produced causing a shortage which would cause long waiting lists and higher asking prices.
Quote from: JYODER240 on August 26, 2007, 04:39:24 PM
Just because GT500 has a longer waiting list doesn't mean the majority of people find it more appealing. The GT500 even with a markup still usually costs less than a Z06. There could as be less GT500s produced causing a shortage which would cause long waiting lists and higher asking prices.
To the people with $70,000 to spend on a performance car, most are choosing the GT500 over a Z06, so yes that means it is appealing to more people in that demographic. I don't know what is so hard to understand.
Let's bring Porsche into the mix, would you say that the 911 is a more appealing car than the GT500 or the Z06? Well it absolutely blows pretty much anything in that range out of the water as far as sales are concerned (crap, there are probably quite a few 70k Caymans and Boxsters out there too).
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 01:48:38 PM
Yes, for shit's sake (how does that make sense), I did. Basically, the GT500 is a baby boomer's car, to nostalgia driven rich white guys it might be appealing but to less biased enthusiasts it is an overweight pig. It looks the part and sounds the part, but it sure as hell doesn't perform the part. In the straightline it is slower compared to the Vette and in turns it just down right fails.
Which is why is finished just 0.1 seconds behind the 911 Turbo around VIR right?
QuoteI wanted to like the GT500, I really did (it looks great, I even had a pic of it in my sig for a while). But, the previous Cobra was a better performer and 10 grand cheaper.
:rolleyes: You're wrong. The previous Cobra does NOT outperform the current GT500 in any category. The GT500 out corners, out accelerates, out handles, and just plain out does the previous Cobra in every way possible.
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 04:58:41 PM
Let's bring Porsche into the mix, would you say that the 911 is a more appealing car than the GT500 or the Z06? Well it absolutely blows pretty much anything in that range out of the water as far as sales are concerned (crap, there are probably quite a few 70k Caymans and Boxsters out there too).
Look. I'm not arguing this because I'm a Mustang fanboy or anything (in fact I have said that between the two I would take a Z06), I'm arguing this because you're trying to make this a "Z06 is a better car" argument, when that's not what it's about. Pure and simply, more people are putitng down equal money on GT500s then they are on a Z06. Period.
Which means nothing because the general population is stupid. Sales numbers and demand meaning nothing!
For some reason or another the Turbo put up a pathetic performance, it was far slower than the less powerful, RWD (but better tired with a more track oriented suspension) GT3. I would've expected cars that shared the basics to be closer, whether it was the drivers, the particular car, or just something about the car's design, I don't know.
Acceleration, at least 0-60, is equal between the GT500 and Cobra, which is #1 since these are straight line cars we're talking about here.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 04:56:25 PM
To the people with $70,000 to spend on a performance car, most are choosing the GT500 over a Z06, so yes that means it is appealing to more people in that demographic.? I don't know what is so hard to understand.
Because for many buyers, the appeal of the GT500 is not purely because units a performance car. Its also a status item precisely because of its name, its looks and its comparative rarity.
Honestly, the performance level of either of these cars is beyond what 99% of drivers could ever hope to exploit with any level of finesse. I know its beyond what I could claim to be comfortable with, and I'm no slouch in that department. Therefore, the fact that one is a better performer than the other means nothing to most buyers except for cruise-in bragging rights.
The fact though that the GT500 comes with a legendary name, looks slicker than snot, can be had in convertible form, and can carry a couple of extra people does make a difference.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 04:56:25 PM
To the people with $70,000 to spend on a performance car, most are choosing the GT500 over a Z06, so yes that means it is appealing to more people in that demographic.
Can anybody actually prove that every GT500 is going for $70,000? I'd like to see it.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 04:56:25 PM
To the people with $70,000 to spend on a performance car, most are choosing the GT500 over a Z06, so yes that means it is appealing to more people in that demographic.? I don't know what is so hard to understand.
You're assuming the average selling price of the GT500 and Z06 are the same. Assuming the average going price for a GT500 is 20k above sticker it's still coming it atleast 10k below MSRP of a Z06. I wouldn't be surprised if most Z06s are going above MSRP as well. We don't have enough information about sales, prices, production numbers, etc to say which car most people find more appealing.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 26, 2007, 05:23:25 PM
Can anybody actually prove that every GT500 is going for $70,000? I'd like to see it.
Oh, wait: excuse me while I dig up the sales receipts for every GT500 sold to date. I had them right here a minute ago.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 26, 2007, 05:26:29 PM
Oh, wait: excuse me while I dig up the sales receipts for every GT500 sold to date. I had them right here a minute ago.
:rolleyes:
My point exactly.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 26, 2007, 06:29:45 PM
:rolleyes:
My point exactly.
On the other hand, it would be foolish to assume that a car with a 20 grand mark-up actually gets tha extra 20 grand. There's this thing called haggling that salespeople like to do.
However, they're also not known to put ridiculous off-putting prices on cars that have no chance of getting that price. Chances are, if they'll sticker it at 70, its fetching something close to that on the open market.
Making mark-ups like that is in the salesperson's best short term interest, but the long term effect of lost sales, lower resale values and creating long-term resentment among potential buyers is probably not in Ford's best long-term interest.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 04:56:25 PM
To the people with $70,000 to spend on a performance car, most are choosing the GT500 over a Z06, so yes that means it is appealing to more people in that demographic.? I don't know what is so hard to understand.
Well that's an easy question to answer. What are the sales numbers of the GT500 vs the Z06? Whichever sells more is the car that people with 70K are more eager to buy.
I couldn't imagine spending 70 grand on it. For 70 grand you could mod up a regular GT and still have enough money for a GTI.
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 05:13:52 PM
Which means nothing because the general population is stupid. Sales numbers and demand meaning nothing!
:huh: You have so missed the point. :rolleyes:? What doesn't matter is the general population's intelligence.? The only thing that matters in this case is the sales numbers and demand. You still think I'm arguing that the GT500 is better because it sells more don't you?
QuoteAcceleration, at least 0-60, is equal between the GT500 and Cobra, which is #1 since these are straight line cars we're talking about here.
Again, you're wrong.? The best MM&FF could get from a stock Terminator Cobra was 4.6 seconds to 60 mph while they got the GT500 there in 4.4 seconds.
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=10801.msg550159#msg550159 date=1188178672
I couldn't imagine spending 70 grand on it.? For 70 grand you could mod up a regular GT and still have enough money for a GTI.?
Neither could I. I can't even imagine spending MSRP on the thing. I could build a better, faster, and sharper looking car from a 2005 Mustang GT for a shit load less money. Of course, it doesn't have the Shelby name or a warranty, but who cares, I could smoke it if I ever had to. :rockon:
How much do Roush Stage 3s and Saleen S281Es cost?
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 26, 2007, 05:23:25 PM
Can anybody actually prove that every GT500 is going for $70,000? I'd like to see it.
You're right. Some go for more. :lol:
There's one in Dawson Creek, BC that has a window sticker of $108,000. A single dealership in Edmonton sold 3 for $105,000 in a month. Prices in Edmonton and Calgary right now are pretty stable at $85,000 everywhere I checked and what's being advertised. Across Canada I found the prices range from a low of $67K to a high of $108K. In Canada the GT500's MSRP is $56K. 2007 Corvette Z06s are going for anywhere between $75K and $96K with an MSRP of $90 - $95K depending on options. In Canada at least the prices seem very comparable between the two with the Z06 going for less then MSRP for the most part.
Quote from: the Teuton on August 26, 2007, 09:30:40 PM
How much do Roush Stage 3s and Saleen S281Es cost?
A Saleen S281E has an MSRP of $72,000 USD.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 26, 2007, 08:56:37 PM
:huh: You have so missed the point. :rolleyes: What doesn't matter is the general population's intelligence. The only thing that matters in this case is the sales numbers and demand. You still think I'm arguing that the GT500 is better because it sells more don't you?
Again, you're wrong. The best MM&FF could get from a stock Terminator Cobra was 4.6 seconds to 60 mph while they got the GT500 there in 4.4 seconds.
How are sales numbers the least bit relevent to anything from an enthuisist's perspective? They just don't matter. Hell, the S2000 used to have 10-15k mark-ups, but it doesn't any more though it is now an even better car. The only thing that a GT500 going for $70k proves is that there are a bunch of people who are so blindly biased towards Mustangs and the accompanying nostalgia that they will ignore numerous better cars available for similar prices.
And pretty soon the 4 seater 400 hp M3 will be raising hell for about the same price. That is, unless it's marked up significantly.
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 10:14:22 PM
QuoteHow are sales numbers the least bit relevent to anything from an enthuisist's perspective? They just don't matter. Hell, the S2000 used to have 10-15k mark-ups, but it doesn't any more though it is now an even better car.
Oh.....my.....god. Are you even on the same planet as the rest of us? We aren't talking about which is the better car. This thread is all about demand and sales...that's it. The demand for the car is the reason for the dealer markups. That's all we're talking about.
QuoteThe only thing that a GT500 going for $70k proves is that there are a bunch of people who are so blindly biased towards Mustangs and the accompanying nostalgia that they will ignore numerous better cars available for similar prices.
Absolutely. We agree on something. This is the reason for the thread and the reason for the sales prices and the demand for the car. I have never said that the GT500 is the better car. In fact I even stated I would buy a Z06 over the GT500. You are so biased against the GT500 you couldn't even see that which is why post after post from you in this thread has called me out for thinking the GT500 is better...which I never did.
You said it was more appealing, a truly inaccurate statement. Whether you can see it or not, your just exhibiting your Mustang fanboyism here, in no context should sales numbers of a performance vehicle mean squat (yet you're still talking about it, bragging about $20k mark ups), unless the brand sells solely performance vehicles. Otherwise, the numbers just don't matter from a business POV either.
Quote from: TBR on August 27, 2007, 08:34:04 AM
You said it was more appealing, a truly inaccurate statement. Whether you can see it or not, your just exhibiting your Mustang fanboyism here, in no context should sales numbers of a performance vehicle mean squat (yet you're still talking about it, bragging about $20k mark ups), unless the brand sells solely performance vehicles. Otherwise, the numbers just don't matter from a business POV either.
What??? Are you serious? Since when do sales numbers NOT reflect the appeal of a performance car? Especially when compared to another performance car that sells for similar dollars? My "fanboyism" is NOT showing through in the least, since I even stated I would personally buy the Z06. How many drugs are you on TBR?
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 05:13:52 PM
Which means nothing because the general population is stupid. Sales numbers and demand meaning nothing!
\
"Waahh, they don't like the same thing I like so they are stupid!"
Such bullshit. Such fucking egotistical bullshit coming from you.
And that's the tone of the naysayers in this thread. Such closed minded worthlesness. "We don't like it so no one else should. And anyone that does is stupid."
Simply put, Hemi's right. the reason there is STILL markups like that on the car is that enough people feel the car is worth it. Doesn't make it better or worse than another car that sells in teh same price range. Just means that people still feel teh Mustang is worth that sort of dollar figure.the performance of both is vastly above any reasonable street use, so as Soup said, the difference is pointless bragging rights in bench racing. The Mustang is rarer and has more cachet. So it commands a higher street price than MSRP, whether YOU would pay it or not.
But the insulting BULLSHIT needs to stop.
Is it insulting to state that it is insanity to pay $70k USD for this car? I guess it's really not much removed than paying $70k USD for a classic muscle car. I still think that it's incongruent.
However, I still remain skeptical that the cars are actually selling with this much of a premium. How is this known? If I'm a dealer there's no way I'm showing my cards, to be used against me by other potential buyers. Basing sales prices off asking prices is a bit dubious as well.
In committing the sin of anectodal evidence as a data, I drive by a lot of new Ford dealers, and every single one of them has multiple GT500s on display.
Checking eBay completed listings, it looks like you can get them for mid 50's. I'm sure some dealers are getting more than that, but that's still ridiculous, IMO. If they'll come down to MSRP or less, I'll have to start thinking seriously about one.
Quote from: ChrisV on August 27, 2007, 09:07:30 AM
\
"Waahh, they don't like the same thing I like so they are stupid!"
Such bullshit. Such fucking egotistical bullshit coming from you.
And that's the tone of the naysayers in this thread. Such closed minded worthlesness. "We don't like it so no one else should. And anyone that does is stupid."
Simply put, Hemi's right. the reason there is STILL markups like that on the car is that enough people feel the car is worth it. Doesn't make it better or worse than another car that sells in teh same price range. Just means that people still feel teh Mustang is worth that sort of dollar figure.the performance of both is vastly above any reasonable street use, so as Soup said, the difference is pointless bragging rights in bench racing. The Mustang is rarer and has more cachet. So it commands a higher street price than MSRP, whether YOU would pay it or not.
But the insulting BULLSHIT needs to stop.
Agree. If it sells for amounts higher than MSRP, then full credit to Ford for doing so. I wouldn't buy it, but I applaud them for advertising a given retail price, and being able to sell the car for well above that price.
Quote from: ChrisV on August 27, 2007, 09:07:30 AM
Such closed minded worthlesness.
:lol:
QuoteBut the insulting BULLSHIT needs to stop.
:lol:
Quote from: omicron on August 27, 2007, 10:52:54 AM
Agree. If it sells for amounts higher than MSRP, then full credit to Ford for doing so. I wouldn't buy it, but I applaud them for advertising a given retail price, and being able to sell the car for well above that price.
There's my problem with such high dealer mark-ups though: Ford agreed to sell the cars to a dealer at a fixed price, and they did so. They also suggested the price at which they would like to see it sold.
The dealer figured that price was about 20 grand too low, so they resell it for that. None of that extra money goes to Ford: but Ford still foots the bill on any warranty work done on that car. With the financial difficulties they're in, wouldn't it benefit Ford if they got some of that money too?
Quote from: TBR on August 26, 2007, 10:14:22 PM
How are sales numbers the least bit relevent to anything from an enthuisist's perspective? They just don't matter. Hell, the S2000 used to have 10-15k mark-ups, but it doesn't any more though it is now an even better car. The only thing that a GT500 going for $70k proves is that there are a bunch of people who are so blindly biased towards Mustangs and the accompanying nostalgia that they will ignore numerous better cars available for similar prices.
It's been like that since '93 when the new Z28/TAs where whooping GTs :banghead:.Back to the subject,i wonder how much these GT500s will be worth in 5 to 10 years?Will paying such a large premium pay off in the end? :huh:
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on August 27, 2007, 06:31:13 PM
It's been like that since '93 when the new Z28/TAs where whooping GTs :banghead:.Back to the subject,i wonder how much these GT500s will be worth in 5 to 10 years?Will paying such a large premium pay off in the end?? :huh:
Probably not with 30,000 GT500s being built before the run is over.
Quote from: ChrisV on August 27, 2007, 09:07:30 AM
\
"Waahh, they don't like the same thing I like so they are stupid!"
Such bullshit. Such fucking egotistical bullshit coming from you.
And that's the tone of the naysayers in this thread. Such closed minded worthlesness. "We don't like it so no one else should. And anyone that does is stupid."
Simply put, Hemi's right. the reason there is STILL markups like that on the car is that enough people feel the car is worth it. Doesn't make it better or worse than another car that sells in teh same price range. Just means that people still feel teh Mustang is worth that sort of dollar figure.the performance of both is vastly above any reasonable street use, so as Soup said, the difference is pointless bragging rights in bench racing. The Mustang is rarer and has more cachet. So it commands a higher street price than MSRP, whether YOU would pay it or not.
But the insulting BULLSHIT needs to stop.
The last part is just hilarous, you are more than happy to insult respected members time after time, I am just insulting the general population's taste.
What is Hemi even talking about here? Yes, the GT500 is selling for $20k more than sticker. All that means is that some dealers are really making out good, it doesn't help Ford, it doesn't make the car any better, it is just a number that means nothing unless you happen to be a Ford dealer with a GT500 sitting in your show room.
Sorry, but people who buy cars based purely on appearance are stupid, this includes the thousands of peoples who buy Hondas because they are Hondas and Toyotas because they are Toyotas.
I like the GT500's styling very much, it is a real nice looking car, but I wouldn't buy one because, for the price, the performance isn't up to par (not acceleration necessarily which is still disappointing imho), and that is at $45k, not $65k.
Quote from: ChrisV on August 27, 2007, 09:07:30 AM
\
"Waahh, they don't like the same thing I like so they are stupid!"
Such bullshit. Such fucking egotistical bullshit coming from you.
And that's the tone of the naysayers in this thread. Such closed minded worthlesness. "We don't like it so no one else should. And anyone that does is stupid."
Simply put, Hemi's right. the reason there is STILL markups like that on the car is that enough people feel the car is worth it. Doesn't make it better or worse than another car that sells in teh same price range. Just means that people still feel teh Mustang is worth that sort of dollar figure.the performance of both is vastly above any reasonable street use, so as Soup said, the difference is pointless bragging rights in bench racing. The Mustang is rarer and has more cachet. So it commands a higher street price than MSRP, whether YOU would pay it or not.
But the insulting BULLSHIT needs to stop.
Breathe... it will all be OK.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on August 26, 2007, 05:23:25 PM
Can anybody actually prove that every GT500 is going for $70,000? I'd like to see it.
We sold one a few months ago. I'll try and look into how much the thing went for.
Quote from: TBR on August 27, 2007, 09:08:59 PM
The last part is just hilarous, you are more than happy to insult respected members time after time, I am just insulting the general population's taste.
What is Hemi even talking about here? Yes, the GT500 is selling for $20k more than sticker. All that means is that some dealers are really making out good, it doesn't help Ford, it doesn't make the car any better, it is just a number that means nothing unless you happen to be a Ford dealer with a GT500 sitting in your show room.
Sorry, but people who buy cars based purely on appearance are stupid, this includes the thousands of peoples who buy Hondas because they are Hondas and Toyotas because they are Toyotas.
I like the GT500's styling very much, it is a real nice looking car, but I wouldn't buy one because, for the price, the performance isn't up to par (not acceleration necessarily which is still disappointing imho), and that is at $45k, not $65k.
I don't disagree with anything you said (except the dissapointing acceleration), but you have missed the point of this thread entirely. You have misunderstood my arguments from the beginning and you seem to completely want to refuse to even try to understand what this thread is about. You still think I'm trying to say the GT500 is a better car then it is....I'm not.
The appeal of the Mustang is mainly that it is a 'sports' car for a budget price. So spending US$70,000 on one makes no sense at all IMO.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 28, 2007, 08:03:43 AM
The appeal of the Mustang is mainly that it is a 'sports' car for a budget price.? So spending US$70,000 on one makes no sense at all IMO.
I agree, but people are. So what are you gonna do?
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 28, 2007, 08:31:21 AM
I agree, but people are. So what are you gonna do?
Steal their money, and slap them across the face with it.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 28, 2007, 07:57:59 AM
I don't disagree with anything you said (except the dissapointing acceleration), but you have missed the point of this thread entirely. You have misunderstood my arguments from the beginning and you seem to completely want to refuse to even try to understand what this thread is about. You still think I'm trying to say the GT500 is a better car then it is....I'm not.
What are your arguments? This thread is about GT500s going for ridiculously high prices which is a fact, no one is arguing about what price GT500s are going for. You're the one that wants to argue over my point, the only reason people are overpaying for the GT500 is because they are so biased by the past and the GT500 invokes those emotions of nostalgia far better than anything else.
And, it isn't a sports car.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 28, 2007, 08:31:21 AM
I agree, but people are.? So what are you gonna do?
Give credit to Ford's marketing department!
$20k mark-ups hurt Ford, they don't help the company one bit and tarnish the already hurting reputation of Ford's dealer network.
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 08:45:54 AM
What are your arguments? This thread is about GT500s going for ridiculously high prices which is a fact, no one is arguing about what price GT500s are going for. You're the one that wants to argue over my point, the only reason people are overpaying for the GT500 is because they are so biased by the past and the GT500 invokes those emotions of nostalgia far better than anything else.
:huh: I haven't told you that you are wrong at all. You're the one who wants to argue the GT500's merits which have nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're also the one who wants to argue that sales numbers and demand don't mean anything....which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.
QuoteAnd, it isn't a sports car.
Where the hell did this come from? Nobody said it was.
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 09:00:14 AM
$20k mark-ups hurt Ford, they don't help the company one bit and tarnish the already hurting reputation of Ford's dealer network.
Absolutely. Dealer markups do nothing but piss me off because they take a car that maybe one day I would be able to afford and they put it in another realm that I can only dream about.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 28, 2007, 08:03:43 AM
The appeal of the Mustang is mainly that it is a 'sports' car for a budget price. So spending US$70,000 on one makes no sense at all IMO.
This is where someone called it a sports car.
And, Hemi, you were the one that said that because the GT500 is going for $70k it must be more appealing than the Vette, which is completely untrue, all that indicates is that supply is well behind demand, not what demand actually is (more bad business by Ford). I imagine Chevrolet sells more regular Vettes than Ford does GT500s and the C6 isn't exactly deeply discounted.
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 10:18:14 AM
This is where someone called it a sports car.
And, Hemi, you were the one that said that because the GT500 is going for $70k it must be more appealing than the Vette, which is completely untrue, all that indicates is that supply is well behind demand, not what demand actually is (more bad business by Ford). I imagine Chevrolet sells more regular Vettes than Ford does GT500s and the C6 isn't exactly deeply discounted.
It's sporty. And it looks like a racing car to the average person. Close enough. I'd consider a Corvette a sports car, but then the Corvette I'm sure handles a lot better.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2007, 09:33:10 PM
Agreed. Ford needs to institute a no-gouging policy to keep some of these dealers in check.
A good swift kick to the balls for every $1000 over sticker should be just about right.
Soup DeVille & all others who resent gouging: All manufacturers are legally forbidden to try to enforce selling prices upon their franchised dealerships/retail outlets/service locations/whatever...
Franchised dealerships are legally entitled to charge whatever they please--but no one complains when the dealerships have to drastically slash prices to reduce excess inventory. The law supports the dealerships, and protects them from any attempts by manufacturers to "force" the dealerships to sell certain products at certain prices.
It's called capitalism. Whether it works or not is still the subject of ongoing debates, arguments, manifestos, proclamations, and jokes...
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 10:18:14 AM
This is where someone called it a sports car.
And, Hemi, you were the one that said that because the GT500 is going for $70k it must be more appealing than the Vette, which is completely untrue, all that indicates is that supply is well behind demand, not what demand actually is (more bad business by Ford). I imagine Chevrolet sells more regular Vettes than Ford does GT500s and the C6 isn't exactly deeply discounted.
Appeal does NOT = better. I never said it did. But if more GT500s are being sold for the same price as Z06s, then YES it does mean it's more appealing to people with $70,000 burning a hole in their pocket. Give your head a shake. BTW, that's not bad business by Ford. Ford is making 10,000 Shelbys a year and Chevy is selling less then 7000 Z06s.
It is very bad business to have supply that much lower than demand, it would be far better for Ford to be selling 15k GT500s than 10k.
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 03:35:41 PM
It is very bad business to have supply that much lower than demand, it would be far better for Ford to be selling 15k GT500s than 10k.
Ford even stated that they had to find a balance so that the people spending the big dollars on these cars would still have a sense of exclusivity and that the cars would also retain their value.
Quote from: Nethead on August 28, 2007, 10:37:48 AM
Soup DeVille & all others who resent gouging:? All manufacturers are legally forbidden to try to enforce selling prices upon their franchised dealerships/retail outlets/service locations/whatever...
Franchised dealerships are legally entitled to charge whatever they please--but no one complains when the dealerships have to drastically slash prices to reduce excess inventory.? The law supports the dealerships, and protects them from any attempts by manufacturers to "force" the dealerships to sell certain products at certain prices.?
It's called capitalism.? Whether it works or not is still the subject of ongoing debates, arguments, manifestos, proclamations, and jokes...
I never asked about the legality of it for crissake- What I stated is that it doesn't help Ford one bit, hurts resale value (in terms of percentage paid when new), and only benefits the dealer and the salesmen.
Quote from: HEMI666 on August 28, 2007, 03:52:13 PM
Ford even stated that they had to find a balance so that the people spending the big dollars on these cars would still have a sense of exclusivity and that the cars would also retain their value.
The balance they found between supply and price is clearly not optimal considering demand, otherwise there wouldn't be these huge mark-ups.
Additionally, if you really want to talk about appeal, Porsche is your company, they have the biggest profit margins in the industry and still manage to move a whole bunch of cars (relatively speaking that is). They've found a good balance.
Quote from: TBR on August 28, 2007, 11:29:45 PM
The balance they found between supply and price is clearly not optimal considering demand, otherwise there wouldn't be these huge mark-ups.
Additionally, if you really want to talk about appeal, Porsche is your company, they have the biggest profit margins in the industry and still manage to move a whole bunch of cars (relatively speaking that is). They've found a good balance.
We're not talking about Porsche. We're talking about the GT500. Holy shit, you have some kind of chip on your shoulder with regards to Mustangs don't you? You just won't let it go.
Thats because I had high expectations (M3 fighter, that is what SVT's top guy said at one point) and they were severly disappointed. I am just noting that the GT500's appeal isn't quite as great as you seem to think since more people are willing to pay a mark-up for Porsches (by Porsche, not by the dealers). That is an example of a good balance between supply, demand, and price, the GT500 is example of exactly what you don't want to happen.
Quote from: TBR on August 29, 2007, 08:22:00 AM
Thats because I had high expectations (M3 fighter, that is what SVT's top guy said at one point) and they were severly disappointed. I am just noting that the GT500's appeal isn't quite as great as you seem to think since more people are willing to pay a mark-up for Porsches (by Porsche, not by the dealers). That is an example of a good balance between supply, demand, and price, the GT500 is example of exactly what you don't want to happen.
I never said it was the most appealing car in the world. I said it was more appealing to more buyers then the Z06 is.
At 45K, I'd take one over an M3. At 70K, the M3 becomes the better choice, just on value.
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=10801.msg553101#msg553101 date=1188398239
At 45K, I'd take one over an M3.? At 70K, the M3 becomes the better choice, just on value.?
Definitely. But they appeal to different demographics and how many M3s will BMW sell? If I had $70K in my pocket and my choices were GT500, M3, and Z06, then I would still take the Z06. The GT500 appeals to everyone from muscle car fans to enthusiasts to collectors. Do the M3 and Z06? The appeal of the M3 and Z06 is limited to a smaller segment of the population.
Quote from: TBR on August 29, 2007, 08:22:00 AM
Thats because I had high expectations (M3 fighter, that is what SVT's top guy said at one point) and they were severly disappointed. I am just noting that the GT500's appeal isn't quite as great as you seem to think since more people are willing to pay a mark-up for Porsches (by Porsche, not by the dealers). That is an example of a good balance between supply, demand, and price, the GT500 is example of exactly what you don't want to happen.
TBR:? TBDude, you may be wrong here...I believe the GT500 is built at maximum annual capacity for the production line where it is assembled from partially completed Mustangs and SVT hardware items.? More production would mean either (a) paying overtime to those on the production line or (b) creating a second shift of workers.? Neither makes sense--paying overtime or hiring additional workers.? That basic $40,930 GT500 coupe (or whatever that has risen too since the GT500 was introduced) couldn't be that inexpensive if time-and-a-half had to be calculated into that MSRP.? Shift differential, benefits, and retirement would have to be added to that MSRP if a second shift of workers were added to the production line.?
The first option--paying overtime to the current production line workers--is the less expensive of the two if the UAW agrees.? Hiring new workers or recalling laid-off workers just ain't the clever thing to do when overall sales are down and the market for thirsty engines is probably shrinking, wouldn't you say?
Legislation may make it wise to shift performance vehicle manufacturing from the OEMs to the tuner enterprises (Saleen, Steeda, Roush, etc.) for a variety of reasons--and that could impact SVT, SRT, and whatever GM calls its in-house performance group.
2007/2008 is hardly the time to overbuild or to increase capacity--and certainly not the time to increase the payroll.
?
Build the number of GT500s that can be built with great quality by the SVT staff and the facilities currently available, and that will strengthen the GT500, SVT, and FoMoCo more in the long haul than anything else they can do.? The GT500, powerhouse that it is, is already garnishing laurels for its build quality (see "Addendum" below). That legislation I mentioned in the previous paragraph may mean that GT500 production may eventually be shifted to a Shelby facility somewhere, and the Nethead here does not know if that would have a detrimental effect upon the build quality or the annual production numbers.
And the appeal of the GT500 is just as intense as HEMI666 implies that it is, but at over $40,000 it isn't within the means of Americans who would buy a GT500 today if the money were available without other financial sacrifices being required.? Like them, I would never consider making
my family do without anything just so I could buy a
car.
Addendum: Mustang Shelby GT500 Wins Top Honors in Quality Aug 6, 2007? by:? AFM
Ford Motor Company vehicles continue making dramatic strides in quality, outstripping the industry's rate of improvement in "things gone wrong" (TGW) in the second quarter U.S. Global Quality Research System (GQRS) study.
As many as 19 Ford Motor Company models ranked in the report's top three places for customer satisfaction, TGW performance - or both - after three months in service.
Mustang Shelby GT500, Ford Explorer and Lincoln Mark LT pickup won top honors for TGW performance, while Ford Edge, Ford E-series vans and Mazda MX-5 Miata topped their segments in customer satisfaction.
While Ford Freestyle, Expedition, Mercury Milan, Mountaineer and Lincoln Navigator L were among the second-place winners for TGW performance and customer satisfaction, the third place winners included Ford Fusion, F-150 and Lincoln Navigator.
The report is the latest of several recent third-party quality assessments showing Ford's continued improvement.
Previously, J.D. Power and Associates APEAL study had ranked Ford Edge the industry's top performing all-new vehicle and Ford Mustang had won its segment for the third straight year.
Quote from: TBR on August 29, 2007, 08:22:00 AM
Thats because I had high expectations (M3 fighter, that is what SVT's top guy said at one point) and they were severly disappointed. I am just noting that the GT500's appeal isn't quite as great as you seem to think since more people are willing to pay a mark-up for Porsches (by Porsche, not by the dealers). That is an example of a good balance between supply, demand, and price, the GT500 is example of exactly what you don't want to happen.
How is that a 'mark up'. You're paying a higher price for a superior product. Obviously, you pay partly for a Porsche badge, but that's still a tangible element.